CMV: Toxic Masculinity doesn't exist

PaperStreetVilla · 2017-09-23T07:49:25+00:00

If it doesn't, then we have to admit that actions are motivated in part by the incentives put in front of us...

So we can't do this.

BiggerDthanYou · 2017-09-23T08:27:40+00:00

Lastly, boys with no real masculinity at all (or attempt to be viewed as real men) have complete and utter toxicity that destroyed their lives.

That's like "water poisoning doesn't exist because not having any water is harmful as well"

Saying that a hypermasculine, hyperaggressive, homophobic, fragile form of masculinity is harmful isn't the same as saying that masculinity in any form is harmful.

As a whole, my view is toxic masculinity doesn't exist, as no amount of masculinity or the desire to achieve masculinity is toxic.

You've got to consider that we recognize various different, sometimes contradictory, masculinities. And you've also got to consider that we aren't talking about the state of being a man, but about how what it means to be a man is being defined by different cultures, groups or social classes.

We aren't saying that it's toxic if you want to be masculine or if you are masculine. We are saying that certain forms of masculinity can be toxic.

Like emotional toughness is masculine and arguable good for men, but stoicism to the point where they aren't able to go to the doctor or to show any emotions except for anger because they are afraid that someone might call them pussy or gay is toxic.

Being confident and having courage is masculine and good for men, but being completely fearless and taking on life endearing risks to prove how tough and masculine you are is dangerous and toxic.

The idea that you are not a real men if you enjoy typically feminine food like vegetables instead of BBQ meat and beer only is harmful.

Toxic masculinity is related to masculinity, but those terms aren't interchangeable even though some people that can't grasp any kind of nuance always think that "toxic masculinity" means "masculinity is toxic" and that this is all merely an attack on all of masculinity instead of them trying to help some men.

jintana · 2017-09-23T07:57:25+00:00

Toxic masculinity is how a man may wake up at a party, hard, being ridden (raped!) by a woman not of his choosing or consent, and expected by others to tolerate and enjoy the experience.

notworthmuch20xx · 2017-09-23T05:21:19+00:00

toxic masculinity is a thing that exists. And will continue to exist because no one wants to tell women to stop supporting it because that would be trying to negotiate their attraction, that's not allowed

Princeso_Bubblegum · 2017-09-23T05:43:01+00:00

You must have grown up in a Feminist utopia or something because I sure as fuck experienced toxic masculinity growing up. I can't tell you how many times I was told to man up and that boys don't cry.

angels_fan · 2017-09-23T05:44:20+00:00

How the fuck is not going to the dr not toxic??

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capitaliststooge · 2017-09-23T17:11:41+00:00

As a whole, my view is toxic masculinity doesn't exist, as no amount of masculinity or the desire to achieve masculinity is toxic.

This is a nonsensical way to view the world.

Overall, simply striving to achieve a form of validation or admiration for some particular quality isn't toxic...

...until it begins to harm the person striving for it in some way, either by limiting their options for self-expression or by actively harming them or causing harmful behavior in them.

No trait is inherently bad until it does bad things to you or to other people. That isn't a surprising or particularly difficult thing to understand.

mistresswhat · 2017-09-24T19:18:15+00:00

I don't think that's a very good definition of toxic masculinity, but I also don't think it's wrong.

Toxic mascuility refers to an entire set of ideas. The principle ones are that

Masculinity is mandatory for all men.
Any one man's masculinity is constantly in flux, and he must be vigilant about maintaining it, or else.

And then a bunch of different beliefs that define masculinity in a way that is harmful to men and/or the people who come into contact with them. Examples include:

Men may not express tender or vulnerable emotions.
Men must be down for sex at all times.
Men must respond violently to insults, because just walking away would be a pussy move.
Men must not have sexual or romantic relationships with other men or trans women.
Men must not have any stereotypically feminine interests, and they sure as hell better not indulge them if they do.
Men must be in control in their romantic relationships.
Men must be the breadwinner.
Men must not tolerate deviation from traditional gender roles, in themselves or in others.
Men must not be the primary caretakers of their children, because that's the woman's job.

Toxic masculinity contributes to but is not solely responsible for stuff like gay bashing, abusive relationships, emotionally distant and under-involved fathers. Also men who remain unhappily in the closet, or fail to pursue their dreams because those dreams are not sufficiently masculine-coded, or feel sulky about their wife getting a raise when they should be celebrating the additional income.

aanarchist · 2017-09-26T19:06:10+00:00

there's toxicity in both genders, and there's a reason behind both

TheBookOfSeil · 2017-09-23T05:25:32+00:00

I could be wrong, but maybe this thing called "toxic masculinity" just refers to a lack of introspect on the part of men because men "know what they're doing, where they're going and don't need no directions," in such a manner that could be toxic to themselves as men because it promotes a stereotypical view of this thing called "being a man," that becomes or can become cemented within society as "tradition" if it's held long enough by the people that both see it and display it.

Electra_Cute · 2017-09-23T11:46:33+00:00

Just because you do not like a concept, does not mean the concept does not exist.

RedPillDetox · 2017-09-23T13:15:30+00:00

Does aggressiveness, being domineering, impulsiveness and wreckless risk taking, being imposing, narcisism and striving for too much status, and lack of empathy and compassion to others account for "masculinity"?

If it does, then it's indeed toxic for the majority of contexts. IMO, there's absolutely no way denying this. Except for being aggressive if you're being assaulted and such, in most contexts this is indeed toxic behavior both for you and others.

bonersNlaughs · 2017-09-23T05:50:26+00:00

Toxic masculinity exist, as shown by your post alone saying it doesn't exist.

I say this as only recognising it as a concept, I don't know what it means. It's like a religious person explaining souls, I leave the discussion with basically the same thoughts, this doesn't mean it's my fault for not understanding and I need to sacrifice time to these fundy issues... in fact what the fuck else am I going to do with my time, it's linked to my lifespan, both are worthless amirite?

Industrialbonecraft · 2017-09-23T13:07:42+00:00

I think it exists, but, much like most social concepts in the internet age, has been taken over by masses of very loud idiots and inadvertently reduced in weight in much the same way that the idea of feminism has been.

The problem is that it became less a social problem to be addressed and more a pseudo-intellectual means of gender shaming. I think most men are bored of companies that feel the need to tell them that their razor blades are POWERED BY NUCLEAR RADIATION or that if they want to carry something that's too big for their pockets, that their DNA is going to somehow be restructured unless they've got a MAN-BAG. (Before anybody starts with the gender-pronoun thing: Shut it. I'm talking about chromosomes and biology, not psychological self-conceptions of gender. I recognise it and support it, you're all welcome to live on my planet, but it's not the debate here.) If you are a male and you do feel the need to have your everyday life reinforced by masculine associated words and stereotypes, then grow the fuck up.

Unfortuntely, the usual shit happened. The internet got hold of the trope and started using it like a bludgeon. They didn't target the companies and the industries producing the products. They targeted the entire gender - whether they bought into the bullshit or not. if you want to shave then you've probably bought one of Gillette's over priced radiation blades at some poor point in your life. Suddenly, according to the people using the idea of toxic masculinity, you are now a walking talking stereotype. You should probably appear on a shit sitcom and do nothing but 'watch the game', drink beer, and talk about your bollocks. As a man that's all you are capable of and because your ego is so fragile you feel the need to reinforce the idea that you are a man by labelling everything 'man'. There are no exceptions.

So once again we had a nice idea for social progress reduced to vapid social one-upsmanship that inadvertently reinforced the very problem it purported to be addressing.

Title	CMV: Toxic Masculinity doesn't exist
Author	soccerstar77
Upvotes	8
Comments	251
Date	September 23, 2017 5:19 AM UTC (8 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/71whgy/cmv_toxic_masculinity_doesnt_exist/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/cmv-toxic-masculinity-doesnt-exist.265958 https://theredarchive.com/post/265958

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