On the claim that misandry doesn't exist because only women face legal institutionalized sexism...

dakru · 2016-04-24T17:49:12+00:00

legal institutionalized sexism...

Legal as in enshrined in (or enforced by) the law? I don't know about the person you were talking with, but I don't commonly see "legal" added on to "institutional sexism" when feminists make that point.

hakosua · 2016-04-24T17:52:26+00:00

First off, I'd be interested to debate feminists who claim that institutionalized sexism does not affect men. My suspicion would be that they were engaging in mental acrobatics out of fear that, were they to concede the argument, they might end up agreeing with MRAs on some issues.

In fact, a lot of institutionalized sexism has an adverse impact on both men and woman: for example, our reluctance to grant paid paternity leave in the US. My boyfriend earns less than me, keeps up with housework better than I do, and is a much better cook. Assuming we make this work long term, and assuming we decide to have kids, I suspect we'd both prefer an arrangement where he stays home (I mean, he's joked about wanting to be a "house husband" but we've never seriously discussed it). And, as it stands, I'd be much more likely to be granted paid leave. So I might end up being the one who takes time off once the kid is born, which would impact us financially and emotionally. I tend to get anxious and stir-crazy when I'm not working outside of the home, whereas my boyfriend says (and I gotta just take his word for it on this one) that doing nice things for me (like cooking delicious food) cheers him up when he's depressed. So, we're not yet at the point where paternity leave is an issue, but we're steadily edging closer.

Meanwhile, there are still some issues that tend to adversely impact women more than they do men. For example, we have no cameras in the elevators at the hospital where I work. In the past six months, two of the women whom I work closely with had to file police reports regarding shit that went down in the elevators. One was grabbed from behind and forcibly dry-humped by a patient; the other belatedly realized that a patient was taking an up skirt photo (he fled before she could grab the recording device). We all follow a conservative dress code and do our best to minimize safety risks but sexual assault still happens, to men as well as women. The reason I mention it is that it disproportionately impacts young female employees where I work and we aren't prioritizing staff safety (security cameras, for example) in the current facilities budget. And we still don't know who the hell fucked with my coworkers.

In short, I think my fellow feminists are right in worrying about how systemic issues impact women. However, anyone who claims that sexism against women cannot possibly adversely impact men as well is grossly misinformed. For example, the patients at my work are primarily older gentlemen from underserved communities. Without sufficient security to protect against assault, I worry my fellow female colleagues might opt to keep any friendly interaction to a minimum, which makes sense from a safety perspective, but could also reenforce the patients' belief that they are being percieved as "less than" by younger, wealthier healthcare providers.

utigers · 2016-04-24T17:45:43+00:00

The problem with this debate is that the other claims that both sides have it so well.

Feminists claim that women are oppressed and men have a boost or benefit in everything or at least most things.

RP-ers claim that women have a lot of luxuries that are not extended to men and get a lot of leeway.

The reality is, sexism benefits and hurts both sexes, depending on the context. Women have shorter prison sentences for similar crimes, but they have a harder time being taken seriously in traditionally male field even when better qualified. Men get leeway in bad social behavior because 'boys will be boys' but cannot sit in a children's playground without people thinking they're a pedophile.

It works both ways.

Jet20 · 2016-04-25T02:55:15+00:00

Systemic/institutionalised xism is a stupid phrase, especially when applied to Muh oppressed minorities.

Name a single well known public or private institution that has discrimination against women/non-whites ratified as part of their systemic codes/rules. I can't think of a single one. If there is any discrimination, it's due to actions of individuals within these institutions against the system - which is anything but systemic.

However, on the other hand there are explicit rules in a lot of these organisations that do discriminate openly against (straight) white men. This is not only completely okay, but encouraged by the people most likely to complain about institutionalised xism.

thebassoonist06 · 2016-04-24T23:40:01+00:00

Its so frustrating to me that other feminists take this stance. As a woman and feminist, i think sexism hurts everyone, putting people in boxes like racism. Anyone denying mysandry is helping to continue mysogyny.

--HankMoody-- · 2016-04-25T05:44:15+00:00

No feminist in the west can profide you with an example because there are no examples. If you want to find laws which are detrimental to women but not men you need to look at Saudi Arabia, Countries where Sharia law is implemented and more conservative cultures.

In the west we have the opposite, women get less jail time for the same offences, they have a massive bias in their favour in all western family courts, they face no sanction or discipline for making false abuse or sexual assault claims. They receive alimony in nearly all cases while men get shafted and lose custody of their kids.

So feminists will talk about systemic abuse like receiving unwanted sexual advances. They do not talk about the systemic abuse of men in the draft, being subject to more violent attacks than women, or any of the other stuff which the fat MRA neckbeards whinge about.

ifelsedowhile · 2016-04-25T15:27:17+00:00

men are privileged because they can walk alone at night without any risk of being assaulted. that's what I read from some feminists. they really are insane if they believe it.

Yonderlander · 2016-04-24T20:54:05+00:00

Not remotely fairly represented in government or even amongst the upper echelons of management.

Expected to give up career or go part time after having kids. Forced into this by high nursery costs and culture which doesn't usually allow fathers to also go part time after having kids. Working and still doing most of the housework.

Granted these are more cultural than systematic and legal. Highly pervasive though affecting millions of people's everyday lives. I gather there is a bit of a legal quagmire developing over there regarding access to abortions. Not so much about the draft, you're scraping the barrel there it isn't going to happen. I think if it did get that desperate they'd hurry women along into it too.

I'm thinking stuff like being forced to register with the state in case they need to force you in to service without your consent while the opposite sex is exempted solely for their gender. That sort of legal, institutional misogyny.

Ps As a feminist I just want equality. It's in the dictionary.

moodyprism · 2016-04-24T17:31:42+00:00

That whole argument is nothing but lazy sophistry. It's just choosing words and definitions to fit their narrative so that they can consolidate as much power as they can.

xthecharacter · 2016-04-24T18:03:12+00:00

This is not a legal example, but I think you have restricted the types of discrimination. I would call these systemic, but not legal.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-10-27/women-face-age-discrimination-earlier-and-more-often-than-men

http://www.pnas.org/content/109/41/16474.abstract

Institutional misogyny need not be legal in nature.

Institutional Sexism: Sexism that occurs at the level of political, social and economic organizations in our society that structure and govern human behavior and interactions. Institutional sexism is harder to identify because it is so deeply ingrained in the systems of our society that it become difficult to separate sexism as something that is occurring. The lack of women in higher paid positions in the workplace is often the fault of sexism but since it occurs at an institutional level is excused to the fact that men work harder than women and thus deserve higher paying, better jobs which it is argued that women are less qualified for.

—https://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~geneq/docs/infoSheets/SexismInfosheet.pdf

AutoModerator · 2016-04-24T16:05:08+00:00

Attention!

You can post off topic/jokes/puns as a comment to this Automoderator message.
For "CMV" and "Question for X" Threads: Parent comments that aren't from the target group will be removed, along with their child replies.
If you want to agree with OP instead of challenging their view or if the question is not targeted at you, post it as an answer to this comment.
OP you can choose your own flair, just press Flair under your post!

Thanks for your cooperation and enjoy the discussion!

I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.

Lonny_zone · 2016-04-24T18:51:39+00:00

You used the word "systemic," which doesn't necessarily refer to anything legally enforced, so feminists will be able to latch onto that word to confirm anything done by people "in power" outside the boundaries of law.

TheChemist158 · 2016-04-24T20:36:08+00:00

Reporting from the old thread.

None, men and women are the same in the eyes of the law. Also, I doubt the draft will happen again, but I could easily see women being included if it did happen.

So then this claim that only women can face discrimination is bullshit?

Of course women face discrimination. It's just not institutionalized, and of course men can face (non-institutionalized) discrimination too. Neither are widespread issues.

Also, I doubt the draft will happen again, but I could easily see women being included if it did happen.

I have a hard time seeing it. Even the most progressive nations sees women dying as significantly worse than men. That's why we get headlines like "54 liked in factory explosion, including 3 women!" That's why I want to include women in the draft: to ensure it will never happen.

I actually don't see very many headlines like that, but I don't read the news much anyway. If something serious enough to warrant a draft were to happen, I bet that national security would suddenly start to matter a lot more than the lives in individual women.

sunkindonut149 · 2016-04-25T21:17:10+00:00

Of course misandry exists but it's the same argument that race activists use about black vs white as opposed to white vs black racism. They are not denying that a woman can beat up a man or a black person can beat up a white person. When they say 'sexism' or 'racism' they don't mean what everyone else means by it. They mean institutionalized

Johnny_Lawless_Esq · 2016-04-24T16:53:23+00:00

Women can't be catholic priests.

And that's it.

sublimemongrel · 2016-04-24T17:25:40+00:00

I believe the glass ceiling does exist. It's def getting better, but it's harder for women to get the top tier, leadership roles, and at least in some industries (I can't speak to all), there doesn't seem to be a good reason for it.

cruelironage · 2016-04-24T20:25:54+00:00

You're making a mistake trying to argue with feminists. Sure shove some shivs in them but if you're going to talk to a woman what you really need to be doing is running your game and trying to pick her up. Feminist women flick their beans to a red pill man.

danxmason · 2016-04-25T04:19:02+00:00

If you're whining about misandry, you've already lost. Victim olympics is for women and betas.

JustDIMS · 2016-04-24T16:42:59+00:00

Only men get signed up for the draft because women are considered worthless in combat. All the ways that you consider men to be shafted by the system come about from how we collectively consider women as a class.

And on the draft: who do you think is campaigning for women in combat roles? It sure as shit ain't grunts.

E: I question the inclusion of "legal" as a qualifier, because I've never seen anyone restrict misogyny to only things that are explicitly legislated. I'm not calling strawman, but yeah, yeah I am.

Title	On the claim that misandry doesn't exist because only women face legal institutionalized sexism...
Author	5th_Law_of_Robotics
Upvotes	15
Comments	144
Date	April 24, 2016 4:05 PM UTC (10 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/4g8ph0/on_the_claim_that_misandry_doesnt_exist_because/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/on-the-claim-that-misandry-doesnt-exist-because.274977 https://theredarchive.com/post/274977

Comments