What is required for "submission"?

Atlas_B_Shruggin · 2018-09-20T14:47:00+00:00

Betas want deference to the Office of Husband and not to have inspire deference in women, because they cant. They want the deference men give to higher ranking men in official institutions. This was probably that man's objection

durtyknees · 2018-09-20T09:01:59+00:00

submission shouldn't be inspired, that it should be default granted to the man?

I'm a woman who prefers submitting to a dominant man in the context of a relationship, and every man I've ever met who thinks men are automatically entitled to a woman's submission are either:

Entitled man-princesses, aka: "nice guys"
Insecure
Paranoid (men who are paranoid are men who can't read people well and therefore can't trust their own judgement, and definitely cannot lead)
Mindlessly ape-ing what seems to work for other men without understanding what actually makes it work for those men.
Autistic

Aaren_Augustine · 2018-09-20T09:50:27+00:00

I guess that defacto submission was what we were supposedly living in before women were 'liberated', where the man apparently made most of the decisions. How true this really was Im not sure. For example, my grandmother was clearly a matriarch of our family and she didn't work much beyond part-time cleaning as far as I know.

In South East Asia, where women are thought to be submissive, it is often common practice for the housewife to have total control of the family finances. This goes as far as the husband handing over his salary to her and getting pocket money back.

I think that in the real sense it comes down to who has the stronger willpower in the relationship. Who bends to the other's wishes more often. In unhealthy reationships it's a power struggle, in good ones it's a balancing act.

I dare say that quite often the woman is more dominant, as many men tend to be much too laid-back for their own good. And yes this does lead to resentment. Too many men bend to their partner's will for want of a peaceful life or due to the fact that they dont articulate what they want and get run over.

So I guess you could say it's earned if the one partner has a genuine reason to follow the other.

More often than not though it's probably just taken.

azngirl7689 · 2018-09-20T13:33:37+00:00

Men who feel they are entitled to submission don’t deserve submission. Be better and maybe you’ll (general you) earn submission.

LivelyChartreuse · 2018-09-20T11:34:41+00:00

I don't submit to my SO strictly, I submit to our relationship. I work for the connection that is the sum of our parts, and when that means following his lead, I do just that. That doesn't mean he always takes charge, because he is human and fallible, but I wouldn't be with him if I didn't respect his intelligence and skills.

Goodgirl1998 · 2018-09-20T09:41:44+00:00

Ha I am not "submitting" to any man. He can submit to me if he wants

VAOTOMARNOCU · 2018-09-20T17:44:14+00:00

Submission is just the result of accepting the superiority of your partner in whatever area (yes, you can be submissive in an area and dominant in others).

My last GF was submissive in political opinions (she would accept and parrot everything I said, even anti-feminist views), in bed (because of the difference in physical strength), finance, etc

Yet, she was infinitely superior to me in areas like socializing, nutrition, logistics, and others. I'd gladly follow her lead in those

aretourner · 2018-09-20T10:10:19+00:00

I mean, I feel the same way and have said as much here before. Inspire me to submit, and I'll submit. Not as a conscious choice, it'll just happen.

I often see men here talking about Captain/FO (although not as many lately, unless I'm imagining it?) and it's just, like, LOL. Because of what you said. This is the burden of anyone who wants respect, admiration, followers etc. Male or female, there is no way around the fact that you have to earn that. If you aren't admirable, no one will admire you. If you aren't respectable, no one will respect you. Etc.

Expecting or demanding respect/submission without being worthy of it is a)overtly marking yourself out as inherently not worthy and b)probably a sign of some kind of dysfunction or misunderstanding. I think sometimes some younger men, hopped up on RP and manosphere readings, can get to thinking women are just going to bend the knee(s) automatically, because they're women, and these guys are men and it's the natural order of things. Nah. And anyone teaching young men this is actually doing them a disservice/setting them up for disappointment and bitterness (and we see where disappointment and bitterness lead).

Also, when talking about submission, I'm definitely talking about the kind of thing I see in a lot of couples, including ones that would in no way describe their dynamic as as 'Captain/FO' (i.e. myself - do I naturally feel like his bitch? yes. are we 'Captain/FO'? barf, no, fuck off). It's not a dynamic where 1 person 100% all the time submits to the other. It's not that rigid, or that humourless.

GridReXX · 2018-09-20T17:29:04+00:00

I'm happiest in a submissive role, but will not default defer to any asshat and that goes back to being young. I'm quiet by nature but if something is off or a situation feels bad I'll walk. In all honesty I view the fitness of who I'm deferring to as a matter of self preservation. I will not commit to, let alone destroy myself in any way for someone who consistently shows shitty leadership. Now I will brace myself for the "fake submissive" commentary.

Factors that inspire submission to me are (no particular order)

Ease with decision making as a fact of life rather than the universe putting itself upon you, the hapless victim
A history of being mostly right with those decisions
Staying solution oriented when things change suddenly
The ability to think things through to conclusion and anticipate potential outcomes with a plan of action
Not acting like a usurped prima donna if I have questions
Confidence in me doing what I'm responsible for
Demonstrated care and consideration for the people who make you happy or enable your success

cxj · 2018-09-20T21:05:53+00:00

I think a lot of the issue with TRP and trad cons struggling with relationships is their misunderstanding of official rank vs inspired deference . The human psyche evolved in the context of roaming bands of hunter gatherers, not complex civilizations that designate ranks. Women want natural leaders for partners .

Belt_Around_Ur_Neck · 2018-09-20T10:35:42+00:00

Natural submission is something that must be freely granted/given by the sub, in my view.

It has nothing to do with control; in fact, it’s quite the opposite. In my case, it’s because i’ve Captivated them to the point where they truly desire to please me and will offer themselves to this end, and doing so affirmatively pleases them. It’s revocable at any time.

Uncommon_Sense_12345 · 2018-09-20T13:18:28+00:00

I'm the one you were talking with on the other thread.

Under Option 2, which is more representative of my view, perhaps I failed to indicate I was basing submission not on secular RP but on a more traditional Christian understanding of the term.

This means that upon marriage in more traditional Christian circles the man automatically becomes leader regardless of his proving his worth.

Under RP, the woman seems to think the man is leader only when she agrees with his actions and deems them worthy. This is what I called conditional submission and not real submission. This is a woman still in control. She only gave the illusion of submission.

321PK · 2018-09-20T13:32:21+00:00

I’m glad you asked this. I think I got misunderstood yesterday when I said I agreed with Beltaroundyourneck. I wasn’t even thinking of because my beaten with a baton or doing stupid shit like calling some man “Daddy.”

whitetrashcarl · 2018-09-20T15:30:42+00:00

Hot take

Getting penetrated is submissive

Ercole_ · 2018-09-20T12:09:37+00:00

what factors do you think compel a woman to submit?

These hands.

Cho_Assmilk · 2018-09-20T20:08:22+00:00

Submission is an RP fantasy term that guys get carried away with. No guy wants a women who grovels at his feet awaiting her next duty.

True submission is when a women puts her trust in a man to steer the ship in a direction that's mutually beneficial for both of them, thus allowing her to relax on stressful shit and worry more about raising children/keeping a beautiful house.

Surprisingly, or not so surprisingly, a lot of women really like this. Id go as far as to say that women who damn this philosophy to hell have never had the luxury of experiencing it.

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BadgerwithaPickaxe · 2018-09-20T14:09:15+00:00

In my experience(M), submission that is gained through expectation alone without first earning it is just obedience by threat of emotional or physical discomfort.

That being said, most women prefer men to “expect submission” because pussy-footing around it is just not attractive. The problem comes from either one or both people misunderstanding what dominant and submissive mean.

Submissiveness should always be given, but it’s the doms duty not to abuse the submission they are given. Most guys I know get a big head on them because the girl they’re currently sleeping with likes to be submissive and they get to act like god for awhile. It boosts their ego. And then when their with another girl and she doesn’t enjoy the same amount of submission they think it’s the girls problem.

On the other hand, sometimes girls want a paradox. They want a guy that takes control whenever he wants but also only at specific times. They want a guy to be confident enough to be a dom, but they don’t trust them to handle it.

All in all I think that a good rule of thumb is that no one should be submissive outside of the bedroom or kink if you don’t want things to go south. Trust is the most important thing with submission.

Now if you’re taking more along the lines of masculinity and femininity it’s a different story.

hammerhaunts · 2018-09-20T14:25:12+00:00

Rather, do you think a woman should be "inspired" into "natural deference"; or do you think she should default defer to her male mate even if she's more competent/ he's not capable?

"Should"

RedPill-BlackLotus · 2018-09-20T16:37:00+00:00

What's required for submission? She has to feel like she's marrying up. Her perception of you has to be above her.

Then she can respect, admire, and submit.

The problem is most beta men let their wives run the whole show, putting themselves in the position of subordinate because they have to be told what to do. Or they feel entitled to their wives submitting to them without first becomming the competent, independent, action orientated man, that a woman could submit to. Because thats hard work and you have to put down the hand controller.

abaxeron · 2018-09-20T18:58:51+00:00

do you think she should default defer to her male mate even if she's more competent/ he's not capable?

If you don't like your liver, take a shot every time criticism of female submission assumes non-existence of hypergamy.

If you are with him, most probably, he is more competent and capable.

If he is not more competent and capable in this particular thing, he most probably sees the bigger picture that you don't.

Even if he is observably less capable, less competent, has narrower understanding of the issue, but still wants to do things his way - he most probably will also compensate for his own failure. You most probably won't.

If nothing above applies, then first, check for the horn on your forehead, and second, you probably aren't having a relationship, you're having a boytoy.

In general, I think what is required for submission is not being an obnoxious twat when something requires sacrificing your immediate selfish interest for mutual long-term benefit. At least, for a lot of women, that would've been a wonderful start.

Probably a little bit fuzzy response, but just as much as the post is.

BajaBlast90 · 2018-09-21T05:51:32+00:00

Depends on what you mean by "submitting"?

Unpopular opinion on here: I don't feel the need to be "submissive" to my partner in they ways that you are thinking. I awknowledge the differences in our genders but it doesn't make me feel like I need to let him lead. I'm not submissive by nature and I don't see any benefit to being submissive, other than a false sense of security and a need for hand holding. To be honest if you're looking for that then you are very weak minded.

jackandjill22 · 2018-09-21T13:26:10+00:00

Something that's very important & worth noting is what inspires respect in men & what inspires respect in women are completely divergent. I have dudes that hound me like non-stop. They tell the wish they were me, that I inspire them, they let me into events without charge they're apart of & trust tremendous business investments in me just on my character/talent. It's a type of influence that's hard to put your finger on in fact I was having a conversation with a friend & a cute intern at a PR company & she asked my friend, "How do you become that, like him?"

The only guys who create that respect are like Chris brown or John legend or something girls aren't falling all over themselves for Sam Harris, Elon Musk or Jeff Bezos. They're attracted to their success but not like an Abercrombie & Fitch model or Drake or a Rockstar. It's a different set or priorities & a different world between impressing men/women. The characteristics that do this are lost in nature/gender translation.

Barely-moral · 2018-09-20T08:26:53+00:00

I don't agree with the idea that any kind of sustained behaviour in a human can be done "naturally" and or effortlessly. Submission is and should be earned by a worthy man... but that being said... it is not that simple.

If you recognize that some kind of behaviour or dynamic is good for the relationship you are in, then you will have to take the decision to mantain that behaviour/dynamic even when it is hard.

"Inspiring submission" is not something that can be done, and lets say it is possible to inspire such thing, then it is impossible to do it 24/7... but if the man recognizes that being worthy of submission and being able and willing to lead his partner is healthy for the relationship then he should bust his ass in order to get himself as near to that ideal as it is humanly possible, and he should be trying 24/7, even if it's hard.

The same goes for a woman if she recognizes that submitting to her partner is healthy for the relationship. If she does, then she should work in order to be submissive... 24/7 even if it's hard.

_justagumnut_ · 2018-09-20T11:37:35+00:00

A bit of both. I wouldn't be happy with a man that didn't naturally inspire deference in me. On the same hand though, you're not going to feel that will to be deferent all the time, and I think it's then in your relationship's best interest to actively provide it.

My husband "deserves" the deference that he gets, and that's part of what makes it work. I make an effort even on my or his off days to preserve that dynamic.

wekacuck · 2018-09-20T13:11:48+00:00

"Submission" is pretty simple. Submission is putting your own agency and goals below someone else's agency and goals. Both of the things you describe are submission. One's more skillful than the other, but they're both submission.

exit_sandman · 2018-09-20T13:49:16+00:00

Your "conditional submissiveness" is insofar problematic as it turns the relationship more adversarial by default because it compels the woman to (1) always seize him up , waiting for him to trip and (2) to become a combative shrew as soon as she feels she's in the right. Apart from the fact that her cooperation hinges on her subjective perception (and who exactly is saying that the guy is less competent just because the woman thinks that he is?), I don't think that this is the most productive way unless you're dealing with two complementary personalities who are able to deal with that. Plenty of women get exactly what they want and still have a reasonably harmonious relationship because they're able to make the guy do what they want by using her feminine wiles instead of attempting to boss him around.

Aaren_Augustine · 2018-09-20T07:48:12+00:00

Most women marry men who aren’t naturally good leaders and aren’t deserving of natural submission.

If he's good enough to marry he's good enough for you to say yes when he wants to have sex the majority of the time. If he's good enough to marry he's good enough for his wife to NOT act like a cunt most of the time.

First Kill All the Marriage Counsilors is a book that clearly shows women where they are fucking up. Most women bristle at hearing submission like a man hearing he's a shit leader.

I'd just call this Relationship Discipline. A lot of men don't want to do half the shit their wives are demanding. So if I gotta go spend an afternoon with the inlaws that hate my ass or pull 6 feet of hair out of the shower drain, I'd think you can put down the phone and spend a few moments fucking your husband.

Because the question shouldn't be 'can you submit'. The question should be what do we do to make a better marriage. Because then we get to define what that looks like; not OMG submit...I'm gunna be beaten by a wild husband monster!

LewisCross · 2018-09-20T17:26:34+00:00

1.For those who subscribe to women "submitting" (Captain /Fo style) in relationships, what factors do you think compel a woman to submit?

"Inspire" a woman to submit , I think. "compel" isn't the best word.

Mostly it's sexual attraction to him. A woman will reflexively submit to a man she's sexually attracted to. His dominance and confidence, followed by his brute strength, in my opinion.

2.Rather, do you think a woman should be "inspired" into "natural deference"; or do you think she should default defer to her male mate even if she's more competent/ he's not capable?

She should default defer to her male mate; yes, but "should"'s got nothing to do with it. It will not work anywhere close to as well if she's not naturally deferring/submitting. It should be second nature to her. If she's having to work really hard to submit, something's not working somewhere.

If yes, what is your reasoning for why a woman should submit to a C/Fo style relationship where she is or has become the naturally competent one across the board?

Because it just works better all around when she defers. She's happier not having to lead and take the reins which she realy doesn't want to do anyway. (There are exceptions; there are exceptiosn to every rule; I suppose there are some relationships where the woman leads and he follows and until she divorces him because he's such a pussy, it probably works OK.)

An aside, I would say competence is circumstantial and relative to the stakes and tasks at hand -- not an absolute.

Yes, but her competence in some areas doesn't mean she's qualified to lead and make decisions.

Title	What is required for "submission"?
Author	GridReXX
Upvotes	12
Comments	265
Date	September 20, 2018 7:32 AM UTC (7 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/9hd9wv/what_is_required_for_submission/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/what-is-required-for-submission.260768 https://theredarchive.com/post/260768

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