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chumpta
[–][deleted] 20 points21 points22 points 15 years ago (42 children) | Copy Link
I also feel like some people are just jelly. The idea that someone else had the commitment to go out and fix their social awkwardness seems to annoy them. They then try and beat it back by labeling all PUA's as weird to make themselves feel better.
[+]UnicornDolphin -6 points-5 points-4 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Something tells me a person that uses the word "jelly" is probably a huge loser himself.
[–][deleted] 15 years ago (40 children) | Copy Link
[permanently deleted]
[–]chumpta[S] 16 points17 points18 points 15 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
thats great, you've got it figured out, why the fuck are you here then?
[–]gerusz 1 point2 points3 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Even better:
thats great, you've got it figured out, why the fuck aren't you sharing it here then?
[–]leevs11 6 points7 points8 points 15 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
Really it's all just a lifehack to become more confident. Some guys need these routines to break past their fear of talking to people.
[–][deleted] 15 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
[–]gerusz 1 point2 points3 points 15 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
Then you clearly don't understand the situation of some people (most lurkers?) here. They don't need help to fuck 10 girls per month instead of 4-5. They need help to fucking go out and appear attractive. Yeah, you aren't socially awkward. I'll make a wild guess and say that you weren't a geek / nerd in high school or even if you were, you didn't only socialize with other geeks. You weren't considered a loser, you didn't only talk to other guys in your situation, maybe you lost your virginity before you turned 18 and had a couple of girlfriends. For you it might appear creepy and fake.
However, there are people who didn't socialize as well as you did. They are geeks who have socialized mostly with other geeks who shared their interest. Now they are trying to find a way to socialize with other people too (or they could wait for a geeky girl... however, most geeks are familiar with probability theories, so they know that it's rather futile) in order to meet (and attract) girls. Yeah, some people go overboard (beautifully illustrated in Neil Strauss's "The Game"), but others need this kind of help rather than the usual "Be Yourself!", "Be kind to girls you like!", "Be a gentleman!" bullshit they get from their older female relatives.
No one is an instant expert at everything. Some people need help at math. Some need help at foreign languages. And some need help at social interactions. I'm a mathematically minded programer who sometimes teaches math and programing to less mathematically minded or less... well, programmer-capable people. And sometimes I look at their attempts to solve a hard problem and cringe because they desperately try to apply the basic methods I've taught to them to a new problem instead of trying to invent their own methods (which I would do because I can do math and programming on a higher level). Do I think they are stupid? No. I think they have the wrong mindset for this kind of exercise and I try to change their minds in order to let them write algorithms or prove theorems themselves. However, it isn't easy. I can't just tell them the correct method because they wouldn't understand the path from their methods to mine. I have to lead them through that path.
It's the same with social interactions. You can't just tell a geek with approach anxiety and no clue about how women think to just go to the hot girl at the bar and talk to her. You have to lead them through the path. The first steps will appear fake and creepy because... well, they are fake and creepy. However, these are necessary steps to take towards being a socially capable man.
[–][deleted] 15 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
[–]gerusz 1 point2 points3 points 15 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link
OK, I was wrong. It was just a wild guess anyways, I suck at cold reading.
However:
I didn't let it get me down and did my own thing and I eventually found my stride.
Yeah, you had enough willpower. However, willpower is quite variable. Some have enough. Other let that get them down. I invite you to make an experiment (FOR SCIENCE!):
Do you still have contact with those nerdy friends?
First, "rate" them in their current state: how creepy are they? How easily can they mix in groups with different interests? How easy it is for them to find dates?
Then send them over here!
An year later rate them again! I bet you a "party keg" (5 liters) of beer that the creepiness ranking won't change but their other ratings will go up. If you want to stick to a more strict approach to scientific method (I'd actually prefer that, but I don't know how many dateless nerdy friends do you have), have an uninfluenced control group and a group you send here!
[–][deleted] 15 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 15 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link
creepy and not genuine.
Because all people who don't read PUA are never creepy and always honest with women?
This is the one argument I never understood. There are guys who read PUA who just want to find a girlfriend, be in love, and get comfortable with talking to people. There are guys that read PUA, and yes, end up being creepy tryhards who value nothing but getting phone numbers and having sex.
That being said, there are probably more creepy and dishonest guys out there in the dating world who have never even heard of PUA or invested time in reading. People were cheating, dating multiple girls, lying, and doing all kinds of dumb shit long before PUA ever came into the scene.
My point is that it's just the general population that has creepy and dishonest guys. Whether they read PUA or not, some guys are creepy, desperate, and end up being douchebags. It all comes down to personal intent, and what that person wants.
[–][deleted] 15 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link
[–]afcanonymous 1 point2 points3 points 15 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
EVERYONE IS DIFFERENT
Nope. We're all motivated by mostly the same things: desire for comfort, rapport, security, excitement and acceptance.
I did everything pretty much off track of PUA and it's going great.
Probably not. You unconsciously employed the same techniques that we are learning.
just because I keep social.
It's called social proof and social value. You do it naturally. Therefore you're what we call a natural. We generate social proof as well, by many other techniques. To seduce girls. The same way that girls try to seduce us with their looks and make up. All of this has been going on for thousands of years. It's a natural process. We're just more self aware.
[–]afcanonymous 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Haha, that was you? I'm sorry for the comments. It's hurtful when your first success with a girl is mocked by people who are by and large insecure in themselves. I understand the nature of your comments better now.
I'm happy for your relationship and that you're happy. You're still young and it's your first relationship since being "forever alone". You're only 18 and you've been dating for two months. Make sure you continue to grow as a person and keep her attracted to you.
I don't do anything on PUA naturally
But the guys who are most successful with women naturally do.
I guess the difference between the PUA community and myself is goal. My goal is a wholesome relationship, yours is a higher number of one night stands.
That's a lot of bad marketing. Most guys (~70%) that I know are just trying to get better with women so that they can have good relationships with higher quality women.
All I want you to understand is, I've met some of the most extraordinary men in the world through pick up, don't let your opinion of the community be based on the few pricks you've interacted with.
Pick up is just the application of the psychology of male female interactions. With great power and great responsibility and all that. This knowledge can be applied for good or evil.
[–]MonkeySteriods -1 points0 points1 point 15 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Have you ever seen a story about a plateau in the stock market [where there is very little change positive or negitive]? No one cares when that happens [other than people that have short investments in the mert]. When there are huge changes there is a lot of excitment. What would you remember the plateau or the storm?
[I'm talking about your "never use the neg"]
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link
The creepy part is planning out talking to a girl like a war plan.
I don't plan out anything before I meet a girl, and most confident and successful guys don't either. If anything I'd say there is less planning in the seddit community, and far more reviewing that goes on.
It's about what worked, and what didn't work. You'll even notice most of the advice on these boards is just "Get out there, be confident, and approach a lot of people". That isn't creepy, but yes, I agree some people are creepy and take it to the full extent.
My point that was regardless of things like PUA, and the book "The Game", creepy douchey guys have been creepy douchey guys looooong before these materials came out. It comes down to personal intent.
Maybe the girls in the club like that nonsense, but others certainly don't.
What nonsense? A confident successful guy who can easily talk to women and make them laugh? That is the general goal, is being a well liked and social person, and with that comes female attention. If the nonsense you are referring to is the "canned stories", "the routines", and the cheesy "openers", then yes, some of that stuff is nonsense, but it's also not widely accepted to run that kind of game, and it's generally looked at as "noobish" and "training wheels" in most of the PUA communities. It's not always about talking some easy chick up in a club and taking her home to get laid, some people are here just to raise their status, become better men, and be able to talk and interact with the type of women they want to, instead of settling for what they can get.
I still get hit on here and there by girls
So it sounds like you don't have any problems with girls, and thus don't need to really think about it, gain any confidence, or improve yourself in anyway. Congratulations. Realize that most people here aren't trying to turn into guys who get laid every night, but would much rather be in your shoes. You get hit on, and can confidently talk to girls. Two things that the average frustrated guy does not experience when they first turn to reading the PUA materials, and looking for help.
Just talk to people, get off the internet learning how to and just do it, humans have been for thousands of years.
This is actually the biggest teaching lesson in PUA. The majority of the material states up front that this isn't about mind games and manipulation, it's about what works and doesn't work for you. They all stress that nothing will ever happen if you don't get out there in the real world, and just start talking to people. Some people have fears and anxieties when it comes to those kinds of things, and aren't naturally charismatic like yourself. Count yourself lucky, and don't be so quick to call everyone who participates or reads PUA materials to better their lives as "creepy". There are creepy people in the PUA community, and creepy people outside the PUA community.
It's the same thing in other Reddit topics. Cops for example. One cop rapes someone and they all become arrogant power hungry rapists, though very few of them got into that line of work for that reason.
Cheers,
[–]afcanonymous 4 points5 points6 points 15 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link
I still don't think you understand what we do or what PUA is. Everything that you do naturally, we try to understand and apply. It's like make up. Please don't judge us without trying to understand what we do exactly.
I am curious. What causes your impression of us being creepy and not genuine?
[–][deleted] 15 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
[–]afcanonymous 2 points3 points4 points 15 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
I was going to write a long response to this, but you seem pretty set in your opinion, despite it being based on incomplete information. You really have no understanding of this, possibly only from what you read in The Game or saw in the Pick Up Artist.
Why do you read seddit again?
[–][deleted] 15 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
[–]afcanonymous 5 points6 points7 points 15 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Let me give you an example. Man meets woman at a party. Man is funny, teasing her, coming across as charming and confident. He wins over her friends, and leads her to the balcony. They kiss. They exchange numbers and soon begin dating.
Did any of this sound familiar? Being in college I'm sure you've seen this. Lets try it again.
Man initiates conversation with women using an funny one liner. He is funny and teases her a little and is generally being more interesting than all the other guys who are just showering her with compliments. He talks about travelling abroad the last semester and what it meant to him. He meets and pays attention to her friends, engaging them in conversation and makes them comfortable around him. They like him because he's funny and confident, and very charming. When he gets a chance, he takes the woman by the hand and leads her to the balcony, where no one else is around. They are both in a blissful mood, the atmosphere is just right for a connection. He talks about the stars and what they used to mean to him as a kid. The woman is drawn to him, and after a couple of minutes of rapport, they kiss.
Sounds a little weird, but totally natural right? Like a scene from a movie. Now, in terms of pick up concepts:
Man initiates conversation with women using a funny one liner [approach + open]. He is funny [Demonstration of Higher value, establishing] and teases her a little [presenting a challenge, breaking rapport] and is generally being more interesting [Adding value] than all the other guys who are just showering her with compliments. He talks about travelling abroad the last semester [Demonstration of higher value] and what it meant to him [rapport]. He meets and pays attention to her friends, engaging them in conversation and makes them comfortable around him [eliminating obstacles, improving social value, adding value to everyone's evening, ]. They like him because he's funny and confident, and very charming [Dominance, Leadership, Social Value]. When he gets a chance, he takes the woman by the hand [Masculine dominance, kino, attraction spikes] and leads her to the balcony, where no one else is around[isolation]. They are both in a blissful mood, the atmosphere is just right for a connection[deep rapport]. He talks about the stars and what they used to mean to him as a kid[deep rapport, qualification]. The woman is drawn to him,[attraction established, a little bit of kino escalation on his part] and after a couple of minutes of rapport, they kiss [close].
This could be a pick up artist, or a complete natural. There's nothing here that someone who's good with women (has game) wouldn't do. Pick up is just analysis and application of normal and natural interactions between men and women.
I'm leaving out a lot of things but yes what's not genuine? The fact that the guy is self aware? If you are aware of the effects of your actions does that make you more manipulative? Or just smarter?
What if you could add one of these things to improve your chance with the girl your dating? Would you?
[–]gerusz 1 point2 points3 points 15 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
This deserves a place somewhere on the top in the "New to Seddit?" post.
Haha, not to self promote, but, you can submit the comment separately on seddit for inclusion and see if others agree :D. Not many people are going to read this thread any more.
[–]MonkeySteriods 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
If the "PUA" is not guinine others can pick out the insincerity through inconsistent behavior. If you're worried about a lack of authenticness you're over thinking it.
[–]jmnugent -1 points0 points1 point 15 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Because the strategies and techniques that are often discussed... are typically applied in ways to artificially influence/manipulate the outcome of the social situation.
There's nothing wrong with wanting to improve yourself. If you want to find ways to build confidence, get healthier, improve your mental outlook.. all of those things are great and I fully support them.
It's not even wrong to expect those things to help you be more successful with ladies. Nothing wrong with that at all.
The part that's wrong.. is trying to use specific techniques to manipulate the social-interaction towards some specific self-ish goal. (trying to juggle 3 hot gf's at the same time, trying to get laid 20 times a week,etc,etc)
When you interact with other human beings.. there shouldn't be some hidden agenda. Cards should be on the table. If you want to sleep with a girl, you should be man enough to ask her directly (at an appropriate time/moment). If you can't/won't do that... get out of the game.
[–]afcanonymous 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
If you want to sleep with a girl, you should be man enough to ask her directly (at an appropriate time/moment)
Humor me. How does that work?
[–]jmnugent 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
See my comment over here.
[–]afcanonymous 1 point2 points3 points 15 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
Ha, how did you know they were PUAs?
[–]afcanonymous 2 points3 points4 points 15 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
If you can tell they're PUAs they're not very good.
Or if they're dumb enough to tell people that.
[–][deleted] 15 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
[–]afcanonymous 3 points4 points5 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Haha, don't judge us based solely on the impressions that a few dbags give us.
[–]philosarapter -1 points0 points1 point 15 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
genuine only relies on the belief of novelty.
[–]KazamaSmokers 48 points49 points50 points 15 years ago (89 children) | Copy Link
I think some of the haters (rightly) understand that there's a shallowness to the game.
[–][deleted] 15 years ago* (9 children) | Copy Link
[–]KazamaSmokers 4 points5 points6 points 15 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link
"It definitely teaches you how to talk to women as people."
Yes and no. It definitely gives you objectives and gambits that get you in there, but OTOH, you are playing with the other person's psychology, which is a kind of objectification.
[–]KazamaSmokers 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
"You are playing to the other person's psychology, but how is that different from any other interactions."
90% of interactions don't have an agenda. Seddit is the polar opposite of the Duncan North Method.
[–]KazamaSmokers -1 points0 points1 point 15 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
"Even if that agenda, is to enjoy the company of the people around you, that is still an agenda."
You are confusing an agenda with a purpose.
[–]KazamaSmokers -2 points-1 points0 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
No. An agenda is about gain. Purpose is simply a point, with gain not necessarily involved.
[–]Comma20 16 points17 points18 points 15 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link
My problem is more with a lot of people simply 'game' to get laid, rather improve themselves as a person and look at it from a more 'shallow' point of view. I guess seduction community taught me more about self confidence and putting myself out there than "How to hold a conversation with hooks and threads"
[–]rmbarnes 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
My problem is more with a lot of people simply 'game' to get laid
There's nothing wrong with that. Getting laid is important to a man in order to keep him happy, and is an aspect of a man's life that shouldn't be trivialized as shallow. Some people don't want to embark on some big never ending journey of self improvement (and it is never ending, it's more like running on a treadmill than climbing a mountain; there is no final destination), they just want sex.
[–]afcanonymous 4 points5 points6 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
We're not in this just for sex, it's the thrill of the chase. It's the fact that we can learn to attract most women anywhere.
[–]jmnugent 2 points3 points4 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
"Why waste time with all the clubbing bullshit and not just go to an escort then?"
I've often wondered the exact same thing. (and I think the answer to that question strikes at the very heart of hypocrisy of the seduction approach).
My theory is:... Males shy away from using escorts/hookers/prostitutes because of the social stigma (it's seen as "cheap" or "sleazy") ... at some point they'll have to grow up and establish a relationship with an actual real woman.. and she might judge them harshly for having a history of paying for sex.
[–]ryno55 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Pornography is a substitute for real world prostitutes. Plus there's more that a man desires in a woman than just her body.
[–]KazamaSmokers 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
That's it. Spot on.
[–]chumpta[S] 3 points4 points5 points 15 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
when you walk into the ocean, it's shallow at first. it gets deeper as you progress. THIS IS A METAPHOR
[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
And then you stop breathing. Very Zen.
[–]aspartame_junky 5 points6 points7 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
only if you play a shallow game (which, I take it, many people do).
don't hate the game, hate the player :)
[–]Mexicola 13 points14 points15 points 15 years ago (29 children) | Copy Link
My thoughts exactly. I have been following this subreddit for a while now, and while I find some of it interesting and the theories sometimes make sense, I can't help but think it is a game of manipulation where you view people as objects you must play in order to get what you want. It doesn't seem much like you care about other people, you are just after what YOU want. Fair enough, I guess that is what being an 'alpha male' is. I think there is much more to life than spinning plates and and neging people though.
[–][deleted] 31 points32 points33 points 15 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link
The point of the PUA community isn't moral judgment. It's to tell you what works and let you decide for yourself.
[–]rmbarnes 1 point2 points3 points 15 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
Exactly. Game hands men a lot of extra power. It is up to them to take responsibility regarding how they use it.
[–]ZorbaTHut 9 points10 points11 points 15 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Pickup artistry is a lot like being Spiderman. With great power comes great responsibility.
And now I've disqualified myself from ever getting laid again.
[–]leevs11 1 point2 points3 points 15 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Why is this downvoted?
[–]ZorbaTHut 1 point2 points3 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Don't worry about it too much, dropping Spiderman jokes in Seddit is always a bit of a risk :)
If I'd wanted easy karma I would have thrown in a joke about slinging sticky white webs around.
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link
Placebo effect. Most of the PUA types are coming to "game" from such a pathetic place in their lives that pretty much anything that gets them away from their house would lead to an improvement in their social life, and if you talk to hundreds of women, the odds are that at least a couple will sleep with you -- even if you do tons wrong, make an ass of yourselves with stupid routines, and have nothing to offer past the surface.
Sort of correct, but definitely needs rewording. See, not all of us can snap their fingers and have women running after them. Some of us need to understand how to communicate, how to approach women, how to show them our best side. So, just because it doesn't come naturally to us we should just remain "forever alone"?
Women have been doing this since forever - wearing make up, flirting comes naturally to them, etc. It isn't about tricking others, it's about enabling us to walk up to a woman and know what to say and when.
And (as I said in earlier posts) as time goes by you get over the lies and start using real experiences, real stories, because by then you know what works and what doesn't.
Then it's no longer just a surface. Then it's real. To some it comes naturally, others need work.
[–]ZombieDracula 1 point2 points3 points 15 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
Talking to hot girls does not come naturally to everyone. Most people do absolutely everything wrong in the face of an HB9/10. If you're trying to say that we should just go for 7's because the "media's portrayal of beautiful women" is off, I think you need to rethink how you think of good looking girls.
[–]cowman809 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
I think you should stop rating people based on looks and not only try to pick the highest of the high.
You do know a 7 is above average and there is nothing wrong with one?
People should just understand friendzoning (I suppose the root of under confidence in this area of life) is a good thing. It avoids a relationship where one person did not feel a chemistry with the other. Now you can say "Woe is me, no girl feels chemistry with a nerd like me," wrong. I was the nerdy community in High School and there were plenty of nerd -- nerd relationships between people who might not be incredibly confident. These people just clicked with each other, just wait until you find someone to click with. Then you won't need any hooks or conversation tools, because it'll just be natural.
[–]ZombieDracula 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
my personal rating system is about 50/50 intelligence and beauty. If a girl can't hold a conversation with me and is hot she's just a 7.
I agree that you can just "click" with someone but I really don't want to wait around for some girl and I to click, I want to approach like I can't fail and see what happens. This "clicking" thing isn't magic, it's a set list of priorities that two people share. If I'm in the mindstate of thinking like a woman, I'm going to click with a whole lot of them.
I "click" with girls and I don't have to wait.
[–]RalphLeMeow 4 points5 points6 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I haven't seen any such talk in this subreddit, especially compared to the wider world of pickup. mostly its been talk about confidence and just talking to the females.
the thing that needs manipulating the most is your own insecurity.
[–]subheight640 8 points9 points10 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I think, like every other power you can train for, you can abuse pickup. You can use this power and break a lot of girls hearts. You can transmit a lot of diseases. You can make a lot of jealous men.
And like with any other power, people that get power tend to become bigger and bigger assholes, because, now that they have power, they don't have to be nice to people anymore. Now people are nice to them. As the saying goes, power corrupts...
[–][deleted] 15 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link
[–]moonjellies 2 points3 points4 points 15 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
I agree that there are levels of it that are about the social cues and trying to break down and figure out interactions and thats legitimate, but saying there is no deceit in it isn't really true (fake time constraints, for example)
[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 15 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
I agree that there are some lies, but in the end, it's all about faking it till you get it. Let's say: fake time constraints. I used to use fake time constraints all the time and realized that they work. Then as time went by I started making more and more friends and then the time constraints became real. And by that time, since I knew that time constraints work I wasn't worried that the woman would be offended.
Before I learned that time constraints are effective I would ignore my friends as long as possible and keep talking on and on and on.
So technically, it's not a fake time constraint anymore. It was, but then it became legit. So is, for example, opening sets and acting like you know them already to raise social status before opening future sets. I now don't do it as a trick anymore, I just do it, but I know what's going on in the background and that gives me confidence.
So are all the canned stories, openers etc. They're there to teach you HOW to tell a story, or open a set. You start out using them, and they're a bunch of lies, but as time passes you create your own from your own experience, and that is not cheating.
It's all about gaining self-confidence in the end. It starts off with lies and canned step-by-step actions until you realize you don't need the training wheels anymore and you have a life worth talking about. Then it's all real.
TL;DR: It starts off with the lies and canned responses but when you understand what's happening you can use your own experiences. And that's all real then.
[–]moonjellies 1 point2 points3 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Oh yeah, I'm not saying its 100% lies forever, I'm just saying thats an element of it at some point. And I don't think everyone goes into it with the same intentions that you say you have, I think some people will just stay in that beginning phase just to pick up and not bother with working on the techniques to improve personally. I mean you can't make a generalization either way to the truthfulness or ethics or any of that, which a lot of people in this thread on both sides seem to be doing.
[–]jmnugent -1 points0 points1 point 15 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
Ah,.. but there's a distinction between:
1.) An analytical approach that's honest, clear, transparent, polite, respectful,etc.
2.) An analytical approach that uses deception, misdirection, "faking it" or any other under-the-table strategy.
If the seduction/pua type strategies were about nothing more than: learning confidence, exercise (healthier male body), and stuff like that.. I'd be 100% down with it.
Unfortunately.. its not. 90% of it seems to be "games" and trying to learn as many ways as possible to coerce "targets" into doing something they wouldn't normally have done on their own accord. That's why people call it manipulation.
Seduction techniques seem to be talked about and traded as some "magic solution" to getting women to sleep with you. (and hey, if cheap and frequent pussy is all you want, more power to you)...
The reality is... techniques and approaches like that are completely unnecessary to obtaining relationships of quality and substance. All you have to do is find social groups that have the same personalities/interests that you do.. and then participate in them. The simple act of doing that increases your chances of meeting partners who share your interests/mindset. The rest should fall into place.
[–][deleted] 15 years ago* (5 children) | Copy Link
[–]jmnugent 1 point2 points3 points 15 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
"There is no such thing as one's "own accord"."
Really?.. We have no choice in how we act?... that seems kinda deterministic.
"Every reaction is a reaction to some input that the other person is doing. People's responses vary based on what you're doing."
Well, sure.. but we still have a choice in how we react.
"imply that there is some virtue in lack of putting any thought into how the other person is gonna respond."
There's nothing wrong with anticipating how other people might react... the problem is using that knowledge to try to influence the outcome of the interaction towards some selfish goal of your own (instead of a fair/equitable/respectful outcome that's agreeable to both parties involved)
"people vary their behavior to be more adapted toward a desired outcome all the time."
Of course they do... but the moral/ethical "goodness" of a person is often judged by how fairly they act.
A good/moral/ethical person... evaluates a situation.. and calculates an outcome that benefits as many people, as fairly as possible.
it seems like the seduction/PUA strategy is:... evaluate the situation and calculate an outcome that gives me what I want. Don't care about anyone else, especially those AFC's . .man, what losers.
"Nothing I read from the seduction community has anything to do with coersion. Coersion implies using some sort of unwelcome force. The seduction community's strategies are about simply handling things more effectively."
Really?... there's no coercion in applying strategies to try to get a "HB10" to like you... when she probably would have never noticed you in the first place ? That seems like pretty straight forward coercion to me.
"It's to be able to find short-term stuff repeatedly and with much skill and consistency as possible."
And that's totally cool. I applaud that. But it would be more transparent and honest if the seduction community would just own up to it and say: "We're just here to try to find as much pussy as possible."
I would respect that. .. but they try to hide it in all this mumbo-jumbo about improving self-esteem and confidence ,etc,etc (which, granted, are also fine goals to have).. but they shouldn't use that as a front to hide the real agenda of getting pussy.
[–][deleted] 15 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link
[–]jmnugent 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
That's probably way to complex of a question (to many variables) to answer with a simple "yes" or "no".
A lot is going to depend on :
the girl (her personality, her intent, is she being overt/subtle, is she acting passively or actively,etc. )
the situation (office job environment? dance club? weekend hiking trails? Is it with a group or one-on-one? .. etc)
The difference I see (generally speaking) is that makeup/clothes are a passive action. The choice is still up to you how to react or whether or not its appropriate to engage/say Hi.
Seduction/PUA is more active/direct. You're specifically targeting certain people. .and engaging with them using strategies and tactics trying to influence them towards outcomes they may not be aware of or planned to participate in. (example: time-constraints. You're creating an artificial/fake deadline to try to force them to make a quick/snap decision because you think their instincts will choose in your favor. That's deceptive and manipulative. )
Women wearing makeup/new clothes/short skirts MAY be coercion.. depending on the situation/etc.. but it's not as high on the scale as seduction/pua. (and to me it's not really surprising that the different genders have adopted those different styles of coercion. Each style suits each gender when you sit back and think about the evolution and psychology behind it. )
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
the purpose of the time restraint isn't to make her feel like she has to make a decision about you at that moment. it is so that she feels comfortable knowing that you aren't going to be following her all night. you only stay if she is enjoying you being there. otherwise you should leave if she doesn't enjoy your company.
[–]philosarapter 3 points4 points5 points 15 years ago (22 children) | Copy Link
That's because seduction (the art of increasing sexual attraction) is based on the physical parameters. I don't see a problem with being shallow when it comes to going after sex.
I think the problem here is far too many white knights chiming in with their idealistic vision of women being these angelic creatures who only want to fall in love. More often than not, women are just looking to fuck as well, but they can't find a sensible dude who's able to play the flirting game with them and are surrounded by these supplicating, whining, hopeless romantic men who sicken them.
What men don't seem to understand is that girls are looking to get laid with no strings attached as much as men are.
[–]KazamaSmokers 2 points3 points4 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
"That's because seduction (the art of increasing sexual attraction) is based on the physical parameters."
I couldn't disagree more.
[–]jmnugent 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (19 children) | Copy Link
"I don't see a problem with being shallow when it comes to going after sex."
I don't see a problem with that either... as long as your open/honest/transparent about it. If simply getting laid is someones agenda... then why not just be direct and ask? Why all the social-games?
Oh?.. social proclivities mean it's rude or impolite to just ask for sex?... I'm not sure why. If that's what you have in mind.. and that's what she has in mind.. why not just skip directly to the question?.
"I think the problem here is far too many white knights chiming in with their idealistic vision of women being these angelic creatures who only want to fall in love."
Well,.. that certainly is one aspect of the equation, but I think a far larger segment of males simply feel it's a disrespectful or disingenuous way to treat women (or anyone for that matter). I don't have any white-knight romantic naivety about falling in love... but I do have a basic believe that everyone deserves a base minimum of respect (IE = not being objectified, not being manipulated, free to make their own decisions,etc)
TL;DR.. If you're actively doing anything to try to influence how other people like/dislike you... then you've poisoned/polluted the interaction and it will never be "genuine".
[–]afcanonymous 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (16 children) | Copy Link
I don't see a problem with that either... as long as your open/honest/transparent about it. If simply getting laid is someones agenda... then why not just be direct and ask? Why all the social-games? Oh?.. social proclivities mean it's rude or impolite to just ask for sex?... I'm not sure why. If that's what you have in mind.. and that's what she has in mind.. why not just skip directly to the question?.
Spoken like a man! If only women worked like that.
[–]jmnugent 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (15 children) | Copy Link
They do.. you just have to find the right ones. ;) (and I don't mean slutty or easy ones)
Several times in my life I've had women walk up to me, introduce themselves and say variations of things like:
"I'm staying here tonight"
"damn, you're hot, wanna go have sex?"
Flipped around.. I've done this myself (upon meeting women for the first time).. and it worked that way too. (and I'm not some dashingly handsome Brad Pitt type. I'm just an average guy, probably the type of guy most PUA's would describe as an "AFC". ) I don't have game. I probably have negative-game.
You wanna know the big secret?...
You have to say the right thing,.. to the right person.. at the right time.. in the right circumstances.
That's pretty much it. No need for games. No need for stylish clothes or escalated touching or time-constraints or acronyms or flashing cash or getting drunk or any of that extra bullshit.
TL;DR:
1.) Find a girl who likes you.. then you won't need game.
2.) If a girl doesnt like you .. then it's a waste of time to try "gaming" her. (the risks are far higher then the short term payoff--- unless you're only looking to get some pussy.. in which case you're better off simply asking for it. )
[–]afcanonymous 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago* (14 children) | Copy Link
That's asking for a lot, isn't it?
About your TL;DR, game is for the girls who don't already like you. What if you're not happy with the girls who like you?
EDIT: To be clear, that works for women who want to sleep with men. They know that! On the other hand, if you want to sleep with a woman, it would be much harder. There was that study where 90% of men were wiling to jump into bed with a hot girl who they just met, and less that 5% of women were willing to do the same with an extremely attractive man.
[–]jmnugent 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link
"That's asking for a lot, isn't it?"
I guess that's a question of expectations. It seems (at least to me) that we've somehow landed in a generation of males who have this expectation that they are somehow entitled to hot porn-star pussy 5 or 10 times a week. Frankly.. in my opinion.. that's a really unhealthy and unrealistic expectation.
If you work on improving yourself.. with the goal of having real, honest, genuine and quality interactions with other people... THEN you'll meet amazing people... and on occasion (a few times a month or maybe more) you'll have some great experiences (which may or may not include sex)
THAT would probably be a more realistic and healthy way to live.
"game is for the girls who don't already like you."
Why would you waste any time on girls that don't like you? (If you have to use "game" to get people to like you.. doesn't that cheapen/shallow the interaction ?)
"What if you're not happy with the girls who like you?"
Then you need to do the hard introspective work... and come to terms with who you are,. and what types of girls you should realistically expect to get. If you're a 300lb overweight guy with a lazy eye, you should NOT expect to get HB10's. If you're an average/awkward/nerdy type of guy.. and you are attracting average/awkward/nerdy types of girls.. then that might just be what you're supposed to have. (or you should stop judging those girls so harshly.. and realize there is a wide selection of average/awkward/nerdy girls, and some of them are quite hot and sexy)
again, it's about "entitlement" and expectations. There's no law out there that says every average guy is going to end up with HB10's. That's unrealistic and unhealthy.
[–]afcanonymous 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link
Haha, I was being snarky. But you have no understanding of the people on this subreddit.
And we're not? What gives you that impression? We are working on that, but we limit our discussions here to seduction. A lot of people here are really quite successful, despite most of our questions coming from people who are inexperienced, etc. This isn't the life improvement subreddit you know.
(If you have to use "game" to get people to like you.. doesn't that cheapen/shallow the interaction ?)
Do you know what game is? Read This.
again, it's about "entitlement" and expectations. There's no law out there that says every average guy is going to end up with HB10's. That's unrealistic and unhealthy
Or you can improve your life and yourself till you can get the best girls that you can. In 10 months of practice I'm dating girls who my friends used to tell me are out of my league. I've become far more fun to be around, far more confident, and I love the way women look at me when I'm near them. And I'm very average in terms of looks. I was what you describe as "an average/awkward/nerdy type of guy". Not any more. I'm still average but I have great style, I'm still awkward, but I temper that with charm and the ability to read social interactions and people, I'm still nerdy, I love comic books, video games, science and sci fi.
Point is, game helped me immensely in my life. The type of arguments you make are that of a man who doesn't aspire to take the initiative. I want to be able to control my life. I want to be the selector. And that's who I'm becoming.
[–]jmnugent 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
"and we're not?"
Some of you probably are.. but it's my perception (and from what I can tell, the general populations perception) that the vast majority of seduction/PUA types are creepy, weird, awkward and desperate, trying to manipulate girls to get into their pants.
If that's not true... I don't understand why the seduction/PUA community would allow that misperception to continue, and not do something (on a wide scale) to fix it. Surely you don't want that negative image.. it effects your game.
"This isn't the life improvement subreddit you know."
Yes, I'm aware of that. (but life-improvement does seem to come up quite a bit, as a foundational/first-step towards improving a persons social luck)
"Do you know what game is? Read This."
On the surface, I don't see anything particularly "unnatural" or "manipulative" by the way you describe it... but it's just words on a page, and seeing it unfold in person would be an entirely different experience. I also know/realize that the way you describe it is "best case scenario" and probably doesn't represent the typical seduction encounter.
I'm 37.. so I've seen my share of social events over the past 20years (bars, concerts, wedding receptions, coffee shops,etc) in various cities across both coasts of the US
The typical seduction encounter I've seen is usually guys trying to act smooth (but coming off smarmy like a used-car salesman because they are totally overdoing it)... trying to buy girls drinks, neg them or touch them (usually resulting in slaps, drinks being thrown or loud verbal fights) .. or groups/tables of girls pretty much ruthlessly ripping to shreds any guy that tries lines on them.
Now granted.. these are all negative experiences.. and obviously psychologically speaking I'm sure to remember those more than the successful ones I never notice...
"Point is, game helped me immensely in my life."
That's great for you.. Really!
"The type of arguments you make are that of a man who doesn't aspire to take the initiative."
Oh, I have plenty of initiative, but I don't think initiative is necessary in finding successful relationships. (it can help, but I don't think its required). The last girlfriend I had was a knockout redhead, great body (at one point she was an aerobics instructor), really smart (Masters and now has a doctorate).
I didn't have to lift a finger to "get her". No game at all. I treated her with respect, like an actual person.. we built a foundation on things like: friendship and clear communication. The question of: "Is she out of my league?" never even crossed my mind because that's not how I think. (I don't objectify people and decide what "league" they are in.. I just treat them like people.)
I guess it just seems to me like seduction/pua techniques layer on a bunch of unnecessary shit. All you really have to do is relax and be yourself.. put yourself in situations with people of similar personality/social-circles,.. and your bound to start running into females who totally dig you..
[–]afcanonymous 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
It's because 90% of the people in the community don't care. If you're good (or smart about it), no one will know that you're in the community. It'll take a lot of time and energy to fix it. And when you're in the community, you want a little bit of advantage over the naturally gifted, don't you? Wouldn't want them finding out about us :D The stigma doesn't affect your game as much as you think. I've never been called out for being a PUA because I'm very natural.
The biggest realization that I've had since I learned about the seduction community is that it's really natural processes, it's the people who train without calibration, the people who make stupid youtube videos of approaches and the idiotic marketing "Lay 60 girls in 60 days!!" give the community a bad name.
I also know/realize that the way you describe it is "best case scenario" and probably doesn't represent the typical seduction encounter.
That's true. It took me about 4 approaches last night to do exactly what I described. It's a numbers game, but without any game it would have taken me a lot more till I found what I was looking for.
I didn't have to lift a finger to "get her". No game at all.
You may be doing it unconsciously. Game isn't unnatural. Every single technique that we use (even though 90% of them are misunderstood, especially negs) is something that someone does naturally. You were demonstrating personal qualities that she responded to. Women are motivated by desire for comfort, rapport, security, excitement and acceptance. There ways of expressing that you will provide that. Your average guy will offer those, by talking about his job, or the awesome concert he went to, but a PUA or a natural will do it better, for example, offering excitement, by being spontaneous or, comfort and security, by being confident and forward. Your lack of awareness in your actions doesn't make you more or less manipulative.
All you really have to do is relax and be yourself
You're missing this piece: "be the best yourself".
[–]jmnugent 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
I also want to add:
There's nothing terribly wrong with the scenario you describe, IF:
The guy doing it is genuinely interested in the girl
He's only doing it with her (in isolation)
If on the other hand... he's pulling that same strategy on 5 or 10 different girls a week... (trying to make sure none of them find out about the others)... or because he just wants to get into their pants... THEN that's deceptive and manipulative.
Why?.. because the actions hes taken.. have built up a feeling/image in the girls mind (that he's romantic and loyal and caring,etc)... If you're doing that, when all you really want is her pussy.. then yes, it's wrong.
Why waste all that time.. and risk a big messy confused situation.. when you could just come out and say: "Hey, I think you're hot.. you want to fuck later?"
[–]afcanonymous 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
You're forgetting - women are complicit in their own seduction. This is the first time they meet, he's single, she's single, he's offering an exciting rollercoaster ride of emotions and sexuality, and she's biting. There are two sides to this. And doing it to 5 to 10 girls? Improves odds.
that he's romantic and loyal and caring,etc)
Romantic, yes. Caring, yes. Loyal? There's no action that he performs other than implying a high social value and a connection that suggests this. There are players who are not part of this community that do that, and people who are part of this community who just love women and wouldn't dream of hurting them.
Because it's no fun. Because women need to feel it. Because I need to feel it. Because women like to feel wanted. Because the sex is so much better for both of us when there's a chase involved. Because the game is just so much fun, and like it or not, we need to play it. Because the verbal sparring and the sexual tension amplify the enjoyment of sex. Have you ever had angry sex? It's almost as good as a good chase.
This is the first time they meet, he's single, she's single, he's offering an exciting rollercoaster ride of emotions and sexuality, and she's biting.
You've never done any of this to get a person to like you? You've never had an interaction where you've had an ulterior motive? You've never tried to look cool in front of a girl you liked?
Really, everyone manipulates. Read The Art of Seduction by Robert Greene. It's not a PUA book. But you'd be surprised by how many people, from Gandhi to Kennedy to Casanova to Rasputin to Andy Warhol, are manipulative in their own way. I'm sure you're not innocent either.
"You've never done any of this to get a person to like you?"
Not since I've become an adult.. No.
If I want something from someone, I ask them. If they can't help me or don't want to help me.. then I thank them for their time and move on to finding another way to solve whatever problem I'm trying to solve.
NO. .this doesn't mean I'm "that guy" who walks around a bar asking girls out and acting like a doofus.
"Really, everyone manipulates."
You're free to believe that if you want.. .but it's a flawed view of reality. Manipulation is not hard-coded into our DNA. It's a choice.
[–]joazito 4 points5 points6 points 15 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link
WTF How is this +35? Bunch of wusses in this subreddit that REALLY don't understand what we're trying to achieve here.
Seduction here is usually treated as morally/ethically as you can find. Shallowness? We're trying to go much deeper here than in any other subreddit. We're trying to understand the inner reasons of what works and why in human interactions.
Damnit with all the haters outside I figured at least within our own boundaries we had people who got it. +35 boggles my mind.
[–][deleted] 5 points6 points7 points 15 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
Exactly. What shallowness? If there's one thing I have gained from the game is the ability to meet new people and engage in better conversations. Before I got here I didn't even know how to keep a conversation going and now that's over. I get to know a woman better and learn more about her.
Sure, you can use the game in a sort of step-by-step process which ends with "ok, let's fuck now" but that's just stupid. I don't like treating women like objects, and the game enabled me to meet and talk to women in the first place - something which I always sucked at.
[–]jmnugent 1 point2 points3 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
"I partially blame it on our terminology"
I've long thought the same thing. Why doesn't anyone in the seduction community "get" it?.. and why doesn't anyone do anything to change it?
Bad terminology causes an image problem.. and no one seems to care.
[–]squigs 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Very true. This is why I don't really consider myself part of the community. I'll use the techniques, offer tips, but not the terminology. It feels a bit dehumanising, and I want to make a connection with a person, not seduce a "Hot Babe"
Although one of my friends had a problem with me describing aspects of interaction as "techniques".
edit: and just realised I said more or less what the guy you replied to said. Oh well, at least we agree here.
[–]chumpta[S] 2 points3 points4 points 15 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
i wish for them all to leave
[–]chumpta[S] 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
lol im fighting as of now
[–]KazamaSmokers 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Reacting to the criticism (if you can even call it that) by calling the critics "wusses" is pretty shallow.
[–]joazito 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I'll grant you that one. I was just a bit pissed and wanted to vent. I like to call names when I vent.
[–]ymrhawk 19 points20 points21 points 15 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
Haters gonna hate
[–][deleted] 72 points73 points74 points 15 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
Betas gonna 'bate.
[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
...no words.... no words to describe it.... poetry... they should have sent a poet
[–]ihaveacalculator 9 points10 points11 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
This should be the new slogan of Seddit.
[–]Mat_Cauthon 1 point2 points3 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
http://i.imgur.com/nhucC.gif
[–]cheddarchexmix 5 points6 points7 points 15 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
IMO, there are actually plenty of legitimate reasons for people not interested in PUA materials to hate PUA.
All this said: WHO GIVES A FLYING FUCK. I think it's totally fine that the general public disdains Seddit and our ilk, because it has no bearing on how people perceive me IRL.
If you're applying the PUA techniques correctly, nobody will ever be like "OMG he's a PUA!!" - they'll just know you as that awesome dude that everybody has a good time around, and who has statistically significant success with women.
This topic comes up every few months, and isn't all that productive. It usually just brings a bunch of lurker-haters out of the woodwork, starts some flamewars, and at worst gets attention outside of Seddit which leads to dilution of quality here.
I know you didn't expect this shitstorm of comments from just posting a photo, but now you know.
[–]chumpta[S] 1 point2 points3 points 15 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
a bunch of lurker-haters out of the woodwork
why are there lurker-haters in the first place? that's what gets me.
every time this happens i get all mad and then realize how dumb it all is. then i vow to keep calm and ignore/calmly responding to haters. like saying "ill never drink again" after a heavy night of drinking, only to do it again in a few weeks.
RAGE PHASE COMPLETE
for now
[–]cheddarchexmix 1 point2 points3 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Who cares? Seriously. The internet is full of people who spend hours every day on sites they "hate", posting trolly comments and being generally dicky. The ones on Seddit at least are way outnumbered and don't come out that often. Best approach is to not feed the troll.
[–]ImperfectlyInformed 10 points11 points12 points 15 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link
The defensiveness here is not very 'alpha'. It seems a bit pathetic.
I've read The Game and I sometimes browse through some of the blogs (Roissy and Roosh V, for example). These are not good, respectable people. They seem immature; these are archetypal cads. I'm thinking that many of the guys you see on the internet did not have responsible fathers. When it comes to STDs, they are either naive, already have them (and are not moral about disclosure), or have an oddly high tolerance for risk. I'd mainly be worried about HSV.
With that said, there is definitely some good advice on confidence, interpersonal relationships, and approaching women. But go too far and you can just overthink it. I'm not going to say that everyone involved in 'the game' is a cad. I'm less inclined to generalize than the average PUA.
[–]Fred_Flintstone 2 points3 points4 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Mostly Agreed. Although Seddit seems better than most places where they teach openers and tricks and other superfluous nonsense - most of the big-hitting posts on seddit are either "inner game realisations" or very successful field reports which mostly are just people showing extreme confidence. You don't get stuff on hypnosis or card tricks.
I am equally worried about HSV. It is possibly the most controversial topic on reddit - I saw a post in AskReddit break down into a civil war. Most people said "If you catch HSV then its your problem - you should never have sex again", though if any of these people were to catch it then would they follow their own advice? There is a problem in sex education in schools - I remember doing sex ed, but do not recall any emphasise of the significance of Herpes being transmitted even with the use of condoms, and its prevalence. It was only through reading that thread on reddit that it hit me; which terrifies me. There was a point in my life when I would have slept with attractive sluts, but now I am physically repulsed from them out of fear.
Although I would not worry too much about the actual symptoms if I had it myself - It is mostly the grief of spreading it. If I could choose between (1) being a carrier with no symptoms but can give HSV to others, or (2) having the odd monthly flare up for a few days but in the knowledge that it wont spread to others, I would pick (2) any day. People lose limbs in wars.
Upvoted for username.
About Seddit's attitude for STDs, read this and this. We encourage responsible sexual activity.
Also, it's a good thing that I've never seen anything
I think that every person here should read the writings of Zan Perrion, who is one of my major inspirations. He's completely mature about seduction, and has possibly the healthiest attitude towards women of any person. He's also mentioned in the chapter in The Game on picking up women from restaurants. My point is there are people like RooshV and people like this in the community, and while being an asshole like Tucker Max will get you noticed, there are plenty of people who have content without the sensationalist bullshit.
[–][deleted] 14 points15 points16 points 15 years ago* (49 children) | Copy Link
Most people that hate on seddit are bitter AFCs that refuse to realize that building attraction is an improvable skill. It's like the guy who thinks complaining about "cocky douchebags" is somehow going to improve his game.
[–][deleted] 15 years ago (23 children) | Copy Link
[–]advicemcadvice 3 points4 points5 points 15 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
This. This silly terms and abbreviations make it all so like a video game or a military operation. It makes it seems like a big male fantasy.
[–]Thumperings -1 points0 points1 point 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
That's because that's exactly what it is.
[–]leevs11 -2 points-1 points0 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Hence the terms are there to help nerdy reddit types to understand things that they should have learned in childhood.
[–]Griefer_Sutherland 7 points8 points9 points 15 years ago (19 children) | Copy Link
Like it or not, those are widely accepted acronyms. We don't use them because we like the wording, we use them because they're the lingua franca of PU.
[–]jmnugent 1 point2 points3 points 15 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
With such an (apparently) predominant perception that the "accepted acronyms" are damaging PU's image at large.. why does no one work to update/change them ?
It's convenient. And most PUAs don't care about the perception of pick up.
[–]ihaveacalculator 2 points3 points4 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Yeah, those terms existed long before Seddit or even Reddit for that matter.
[–]anonymous_hero -2 points-1 points0 points 15 years ago (15 children) | Copy Link
Yeah but seriously: touch --> umm.. "kinetic"? --> "kino"! That really is kind of lame.
[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points 15 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link
It's an abbreviation of kinesthetic.
[+]anonymous_hero -6 points-5 points-4 points 15 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link
That may well be, but it's still lame.
[–][deleted] 15 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link
[–]moonjellies 2 points3 points4 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
IMO kino is one of the better terms, since it makes sense and its easier to use than explaining it out since everyone understands the basics of what it means.
See above.
[–]anonymous_hero -2 points-1 points0 points 15 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
"touch" seems fairly reasonable.
Kino is a tool. Kinesthetic escalation is strategically establishing rapport and building sexual tension through touch. Touch doesn't cover all the implications. Kinesthetic is an established scientific term.
Take, for example, the concept of Kinesthetic learning. Would it be more effective if we call it "Touch learning?"
Before most people say that kino is manipulative, realize that a lot of kino is done naturally, we just learn to read it and apply it. It's like saying that learning how to improve your body language via Alexander technique and learning how to read body language is manipulative.
[–]anonymous_hero -1 points0 points1 point 15 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
Oh please, stop glorifying the jargon. Touching is touching, it's not really all that scientific.
Oh, and there's no need to downvote me for disparaging your beloved jargon - you'd still all be mighty vagina-masters even if you talked about "touching" instead of "kino".
[–]Thumperings -3 points-2 points-1 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Yes very lame.
[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
It's all about being cool and in the know. You have to use the secret passwords or you'll die a virgin.
[–]chumpta[S] 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
and a lot of them embrace this whole forever alone meme thing. while i think it's funny, it was definitely funnier at first before people started referring to themselves as "forever alone." in the beginning he was just this really awkward alone guy now he's been too related to. then they come over here and we're all "u mad? u jelly?" cause we never alone.
living well is the best trolling.
edit - also i didnt shoop this together, i did find it somewhere cant remember where though.
[–]MonkeySteriods -2 points-1 points0 points 15 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link
I for one don't get it, nor do I understand why why its popular.
[–]MonkeySteriods -1 points0 points1 point 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Please excuse the thumb typing errors, [sent from mobile]
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Physical attraction obviously has some role to play, but its power is vastly overestimated by men. Men are visual creatures, and know before even talking to a woman whether they are attracted to her. Sure, her personality can later turn them off, but their first attraction is to her physical appearance.
Women, on the other hand, judge much less on innate attractiveness and more on how a man carries himself. A man who thinks he is attractive is more likely to walk into a room like he owns the place, and glance her a seductive smile that projects alpha-male confidence.
A man who has convinced himself he is unattractive is less likely to act confidence. However, it's this very lack of confidence that makes him unattractive. Sure, his nose may be crooked or he may have a bad case of acne, but a woman is willing to overlook those things more than a man is, provided that the guy projects the confidence she wants from a partner and protector.
In a sense, when you're first starting out you have to "fake it until you make it." But that's only until you realize that you are attractive enough, you are good enough. That's why inner game is central to PUA. If you know deep inside that you truly are the man, women will see that, even if you aren't the richest or most physically attractive dude out there.
Hell, I'm a skinny little fuck who can't grow facial hair beyond a few whiskers. And I won't pretend I'm a complete master at picking up women, or (the phrase I hate) a "pickup artist." However, my overwhelming confidence and comfort with/acceptance of who I am brings me a great deal of luck.
Sure, every now and then an HB5 or 6 will come up and rave about how pretty my eyes are, or how handsome she thinks I am. But this matters much less to hotter girls. They're attractive and know, and thus I gain nothing from whatever physical traits I may possess. The way to win is with superior game, and that's how I get the hot ones: by being alpha, being a fun person to be around, bringing the party, and not giving a FUCK about what people may think my flaws are.
[–][deleted] -5 points-4 points-3 points 15 years ago (18 children) | Copy Link
I find you all amusing. You are doing the wrong things and living life poorly and you think your occasional lucky break with a woman who sees past your classless and ham fisted attempts at flirting makes you seductive gods. I've had people here say they wanted to fuck my girlfriend in front of me to get revenge on me -- you are probably some of the most sad, ethically challenged, insecure and jealous losers I have had the pleasure of meeting on Reddit.
Like I said, I am here to make sure you don't suck in and ruin too many innocent souls.
[–][deleted] 6 points7 points8 points 15 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Man, what's it like to live with so much hate inside you? Let it go, dude.
[+][deleted] -6 points-5 points-4 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
You guys were the ones calling me names and being assholes.
Like I said, I find you amusing. But this is the internet so the usual "turn the tables" approach to arguing is to be expected. ("I'm not full of hate, YOU are!")
[–][deleted] 5 points6 points7 points 15 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
I find you all amusing. your classless and ham fisted attempts at flirting you are probably some of the most sad, ethically challenged, insecure and jealous losers I have had the pleasure of meeting on Reddit.
I find you all amusing.
your classless and ham fisted attempts at flirting
you are probably some of the most sad, ethically challenged, insecure and jealous losers I have had the pleasure of meeting on Reddit.
Wow. So one random dude on the internet says he wants to fuck your girlfriend, and now you feel justified in calling an entire group of people in a subreddit "insecure and jealous losers"?
Way to ride the ethical high horse. You should just unsubscribe from this subreddit and stop reading it if you hate everyone here so much. The only person being a douchebag here is you.
[–][deleted] -5 points-4 points-3 points 15 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
Being called a douchebag by people who consciously study how to 'manipulate' people and wear a fake personality to get laid is pretty rich. I'll just leave it at that.
[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 15 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
by people who consciously study how to 'manipulate' people and wear a fake personality to get laid.
I've never had a one night stand, and am currently in a relationship with a girl I love and plan on moving in with in the near future. I have not lied to her, manipulated her, and I didn't have sex with her the first 3 times I went on dates with her.
Not everyone in this subreddit is here to manipulate, lie, and just get laid. There are a lot of guys out there who just have trouble meeting and talking to girls, but have good intentions, and just want a relationship. Like I said in another post, there are lying manipulative guys out there with fake personalities who just want to get laid who have never even heard of PUA. Being a guy who lies, just likes getting laid, and hops from girl to girl is not a necessary trait for someone who reads /r/seduction.
It's the judgmental people like you who have no interest in this subreddit, have utter disdain for it, yet still subscribe to it anyway just to rip on people and call them insecure losers. What does that say about yourself? Instead of living your own life and minding your business, your time is somehow better spent criticizing others on a subject that you don't care about and that obviously angers you?
You are in fact the douchebag here, and this isn't coming from a lying, manipulative loser with a fake personality who is just trying to get laid either, this is coming from another human being who is probably a lot more like yourself than you would care to entertain.
I honestly can't tell if you're just some random white knight who sincerely just dislikes PUA, or just pissed and frustrated that people who practice PUA get girls and you think that's wrong because your a nice honest guy who doesn't get girls easily.
What gives? Why such blanketed hate for a group of people with mostly good intentions?
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
I'm glad you're having more success with women. Why do you give pickup all the credit? Don't you think YOU have it in YOU to attract a worthwhile mate without learning all this stuff from other people? You've got it in you, it's in-born. You don't need all of these rubbish that is weighing you down and twisting you into somebody you aren't.
I'm glad you're having more success with women.
For clarity, I used to be successful with women when I was younger and in forced situations with girls my age (high school, college, retail). It was easier to meet girls, and I had a number of fairly long relationships in my life so far. After a 5 year relationship I got back into the dating world, and didn't have the easy access to people my age anymore. It takes a different approach, and it's much harder to meet single girls my age who aren't already dating, married, or have children. It was an entirely different dating environment then when I had got into that 5 year relationship, and I had grown a little more gun shy, and was not as social as I once was. I was looking for options, tips, advice.... anything that might help me get back out there and actually start getting some consistent dates again. I'm a firm believer of dating lots of girls (not fucking mind you), as it takes awhile to find a match. A lot of people go out with the mindset of just finding a girl, and I'm very picky and looking for the right girl. That takes a little bit of extra effort, and means that I have to go on more dates before I'm going to find someone I'm compatible with.
Why do you give pickup all the credit?
I don't, I only give it a little credit. It, for the most part, just reaffirmed a lot of things for me in my mind. The only reason I really even started reading about it, was because I just wasn't meeting any of the women I wanted to meet anymore. When I was in high school, college, and working retail after college, finding girls my age was no problem at all. There were plenty to choose from. Now I'm older, have a corpo office job, and have a lot of the same groups of friends I've had for years. Meeting women went from just talking to girls that were in my environment, to having to actually cold approach women in strange places like bars, coffee places, grocery stores, and in public outside of my comfort zone. That was new territory for me, as in the previous years of my life I was in forced situations with thousands of people my age... I'm not anymore. I have a good job, play the guitar, have a photography business, am good looking, tall, and fit, but never really had a lot of luck approaching strangers, or conveying how cool I thought I was to that person without them thinking I was a douchebag (I'm not despite what you may think). You know what I mean?
Don't you think YOU have it in YOU to attract a worthwhile mate without learning all this stuff from other people?
I totally do, and most people in PUA do as well, that is the point (that I took from my readings anyway). The point is how to convey and present yourself properly. Like I said above, I had the resume of a suitable male mate, but didn't have the confidence, and didn't really know how to get over those initial humps and anxieties of talking to strangers, and actually engaging them. It's not like I read it like a text book. I read a few material, and took it with a grain of salt. Eventually the mantra of just being confident, going out there, and being your best self wears in, and it slowly became natural to talk to people (not just women mind you).
You don't need all of these rubbish that is weighing you down and twisting you into somebody you aren't.
Rest assured, I am still me. As I've said before I'm not a douche, I've never had one night stands and that's not really my thing. I have never cheated on anyone, never lied to a girl, and am actually very forward in my actions and thinking. The only thing PUA really taught me, is how to present the best me, and to be confident. It wasn't entirely responsible for my turnaround, and I never said it was. It was only responsible for how I interacted with people socially. People are born with different gifts, and raised in different ways. People have different strengths and weaknesses throughout their lives, and not everyone is a pro at talking and meeting new people, especially girls. PUA is there as a guide to help those who are not social Casanovas, and gives them confidence, and a place to start.
I only defend PUA from the people that think it is %100 creepy, douchey, and some kind of manipulation practice to fuck girls and spread STDs. That simply isn't the case for everyone who reads and follows seddit, or other PUA materials.
A creepy douchebag is a creepy douchebag, and being a creepy douchebag and PUA are not mutually exclusive.
What happened with your five year relationship? Sounds like an intriguing story. Feel like sharing?
[–]ZombieDracula 1 point2 points3 points 15 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Souls don't exist my friend. Most of us are actually really awesome people that just want to find a good girl.
[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 15 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
If you were that awesome why do you need to put on an act? Doesn't the self-contradiction of this strike you as funny?
[–]ZombieDracula 1 point2 points3 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
What is this act you speak of? You play the game because the game is already there to be played. We just do all the things that work on a consistent basis. I use seddit tips for everyone, not just picking up girls. Talking to everyone, smiling and being a fun guy is not an act, it's a way of life.
[–]absolutebeginners 1 point2 points3 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Judge how you want. You aren't changing any minds.
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 15 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
A truly happy man would find no need to come into this subreddit and make wild accusations about the character of men he will never know. We criticize most in others that which we fear most in ourselves. Reexamine your own life, my friend, and try to find out what it is you hope to gain by being nasty to others.
[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 15 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
I'm certain you'd like to believe my correct criticisms of pickup mean that I have personal problems. However, that isn't the case.
Making ad-hominem, fabricated assumptions about the people who practice pickup is not a "criticism" of pickup itself, let alone an inherently "correct" one. you've yet to address one problem you have with the philosophy besides "you guys are probably losers!"
It's probably because you don't know anything about pickup theory and thus you are incapable of making any kind of rational, intelligent criticism against it, so you use the anonymity of the internet to spew childish attacks, hoping desperately that someone will actually take random insults typed on the internet seriously enough to actually be offended by them. The entire scenario is laughable, and your attempts to appear "cool" (or whatever it is you thought we'd think of you) on the INTERNET are extremely pitiful.
Actually, now that I think about it, I should probably phrase this all in a way that you'll actually understand... UR GHEY!!!11
You did not read what I wrote. I said pickup is pursuing a suboptimal strategy because you repel women who would like you while attracting women to your assumed pickup persona.
Persona? Nobody has ever said to not be yourself... you're simply being more confident and knowledgable about social interactions.
What about those guys out there who aren't getting enough women? It might be worth "repelling" the 2-3 women that they might happen to hook up with to be able to date many more than that.
If someone is, in fact, able to get more women by applying pickup theory, then that invalidates your whole argument, if you're arguing "more is better."
Why would someone not at least try these techniques for a little while and see what kind of effects it has?
[–]Kardlonoc 5 points6 points7 points 15 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link
You are certainly never alone... however the final product in the sort of seduction journey really isn't you as a person. Rather you become a product by following the steps of others that slowly transforms you into a copy of them and not you. You essentially become a completely other person that is designed to pick up girls for one night stands and the price for is your individuality. IE to appeal to a large amount of girls you need to become bland much like how blockbuster movies are bland to appeal to a very large audience of people. Sure these movies might draw a lot of people but they aren't that good. You are going to have a ton of trouble watching them a again once their novelty has worn out and you discover over that pretty shell what lies inside is boring as hell.
Basically what im trying to say is if you mission in life is one night stands being a player is the bee knees no doubt... But that is all you are really going to get out of this. See seduction never really advances you as a individual except in pleasure and bragging rights. And the thing about pleasure is that its fleeting. By being a player you will spend years trolling bars and clubs with one night stands that never really mean anything except beyond that physical attraction. Sex is great don't get me wrong its just that sex with a bit a purpose is far more gratifying than pleasuring a a woman and never seeing her again.
This leads to bragging rights which is why most men really pursue seduction methods. The common man wants to be James Bond or Bruce Wayne or Tony Stark and sleep with super models because of their sheer charisma
And its actually common for most men... If they play the numbers game thats basically ingrained in all seduction methods. But lets ignore methodology and lets say that one guy was actually extremely successful with seduction methods and slept with 100 supermodels in 10 years and hundreds of other girls. He literally goes out every night practicing methods scouting out bars, and so forth. Over time it works and becomes the the pimpest of players literally dazzling women left and right.
So after ten years hes in the office poker game and some question pops up and this guy gets to brag. All his workmates are amazed, stunned and see him in a new light. They ask him his methods so forth, details etc and he reveals a great deal that he wants to.
However it all fades. Over a couple months people will stop caring or just know you as "that ladies man" and that will be forever your legacy as person: A guy who slept with a lot of women. Oh certainly it sounds amazing but the accomplishment will just ring hollow.
You see it is when a person is on top of a mountain is when he the most loneliest. A king is perhaps the most loneliest person in his kingdom, and a superhero practically something of an alien to humanity. And often times you aren't even the best. If you talk or brag about accomplishments people will dismiss them and you need to live with that. And you need to live with that what you accomplished is something that is basically lots of sex while other men built skyscrapers, empires, etc.
I am not going to give life advice here but you really need to examine how much meaning there is in seduction compared to other life pursuits. I mean if you really want your life to be about some sort endless college party where you compare with others how many chicks you banged last month go ahead.
By now if got this far you are probably thinking I some sort of bitter AFC you are both right and wrong. I am basically a AFC but I come to seddit to learn about methods pick up as many chicks as possible like pretty much the majority of readers. I am not arguing against seduction methods just simply lining out a certain reality I believe it contains that people should be aware of and think about.
[–]chumpta[S] 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
implying you cant use seduction to get into an LTR
[–]Kardlonoc 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Oh you can use it to get into a LTR sure but you better hope you have something to build that relationship on other than seduction techniques.
[–]chumpta[S] 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link
agreed wholeheartedly. but you need your foot in the door, and this is often harder for men that in is to KEEP their foot in the door.
[–]throwaway42 -1 points0 points1 point 15 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link
I didn't bother to read further than your first three paragraphs, because you don't seem to get seduction.
For one, one of the major mantras of seddit is 'Be yourself, but be the best possible self you can'. It's not about 'becoming a copy of them', it's about being confident in yourself because you know you are awesome, because you are leading an awesome life.
You don't 'become a person designed to pick up girls for one night stands', you learn how social interactions work, how to convey how awesome you actually are, how to build attraction and comfort. The difference between going for an ons or a ltr is in stating your goal before having sex.
See seduction never really advances you as a individual except in pleasure and bragging rights.
As I said before, you are very much wrong about this. Seduction is all about advancing yourself as an individual. You must not be reading a lot of seddit. There are heaps of posts from people who successfully use what they learned from seddit in day to day interactions with everyone, friends, coworkers, business partners.
[–]Kardlonoc 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link
What you are describing isn't seduction: It is confidence boosting. You basically are saying that seddit is a just basically a motivator for people with social tips
Ultimately all those things are simply the beginnings of what you get from the seduction game. I mean any god dam self help book can help do what you are describing basically except for building attraction and comfort but with enough confidence you won't even need to use tricks for to do that.
The methods inscribed by the game and the seduction community about it are basically for the one night stand. Thats were the word "seduction" comes in: you are seducing girls. What you are describing are just the baby steps PUA's take before they enter the field. Its the equivalent of putting a nerdy kid in karate to boost his self confidence.
But there is nothing wrong with building self confidence and self esteem but its a just a misnomer label that "seduction". And what you are are telling me is that seddit isn't about seduction at all.
[–]throwaway42 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link
Yes, building confidence in yourself is the first part. Then comes building attraction, then comfort. During the attraction and comfort building phase you build up sexual tension, and if appropriate you act on that tension by kissing her and/or taking her to bed (or the next available secluded spot). Seduction in a nutshell. Seriously, I don't see where you get your ideas about 'becoming a copy of them' or becoming 'a person designed to pick up girls for one night stands'.
I mean any god dam self help book can help do what you are describing basically except for building attraction and comfort but with enough confidence you won't even need to use tricks for to do that.
Building attraction and comfort is a huge part of it. There are rules to it that many people don't just 'get' naturally. Keep believing that it's 'tricks' that we learn and that we are tricking women, just don't post in seddit then. Unsubscribe and go away. Or understand that it's about learning how social interaction actually works and applying that knowledge for the benefit of both sides.
Read the articles posted and you will notice that seddit is very different from how you are perceiving it.
[–]Kardlonoc 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
Seduction in a nutshell. Seriously, I don't see where you get your ideas about 'becoming a copy of them' or becoming 'a person designed to pick up girls for one night stands'.
Mostly from a guy who was running a seduction/ confidence building mentor deal and tried to recruit me into his fold. But really he was more or less a student like myself except shit like the game and the secret had become his bible.
I think by seddits standards or anyone he just had a gross misapplication of the learning material but it got me thinking how many more guys are out there like this? See he also spouted the same line more or less about 'Be yourself, but be the best possible self you can' but what that basically means is "Yourself is not good enough" or "You are not good enough".
Which is why I kinda despise seduction methods mostly because men need to build this grand facade to impress women. Its ultimately something that very shallow and is basically not you who who is seducing these women: Its the method you learned about on the internet from some dude. Its not your accomplishment is someone elses accomplishment you just read his video game like guide book to get to the final level.
As for the one night stand thing basically if you become experienced enough in social situations you can will get a girlfriend and basically the you don't need any of this anymore.
But lets take a look at the method you laid out:
Yes, building confidence in yourself is the first part. Then comes building attraction, then comfort. During the attraction and comfort building phase you build up sexual tension, and if appropriate you act on that tension by kissing her and/or taking her to bed (or the next available secluded spot). Seduction in a nutshell.
It basically ends in sex and of course it should if you want that girl. But its pretty obvious by this the ultimate goal that you have set out by this method is sex as why most PUA do as well. Don't kid yourself into this whole thing was created so guys could find long lasting relationships. Seduction was created with the one night stand in mind.
Bahahaha. You realize that PUA's themselves call their methods tricks right? They are psychological tricks, language traps and what not designed to force attraction. You know "Attraction is not a choice". What I find funny about that saying though without IOI's or she bluntly says "no" chances you will move on to someone else. As soon as you do that you are playing a numbers game of finding a girl who is looking for exactly what you are looking for.
The rules to it are part training and part simple knowledge about body language/ social interaction. Some men like us just need a methodology to follow through. What it amounts to however is a fitness plan or a diet. See you don't need either to keep in great shape but people buy into them anyway because they sadly enough some sort of "plan" to just do things that should be good for them naturally.
Anyway let me put it this way: do you know who is the ultimate PUA? A charmasitc politician. Sure its one thing to lament them on the internet but if you ever see the way one mingles with a crowd using, body language, kino pretty much everything you would realize he more or less top tier. And this is a man who will go send your kids off to die in a war and you might thank him for it. People who become polticians figure out all the body language tricks and basically it becomes a game of what to say and how to use your body just like in the seduction world.
I am sure you can see the folly in this as people like the politician far more than his policies.
But it is the nature of the world and I accept it. I accept these methods works and I must use them as well. Thats just how things are... Boring like that.
[–]Mat_Cauthon 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link
See he also spouted the same line more or less about 'Be yourself, but be the best possible self you can' but what that basically means is "Yourself is not good enough" or "You are not good enough".
"Be yourself" is totally meaningless. The essentialist notion that we "find ourself" is terrible, because that is confining. Who am I, really? I find that identity is much more fluid than you give credit for. We (re)construct our identity constantly. Don't find yourself, make yourself.
Just as a man can look in the mirror, say "I love myself", and yet still desire to go to the gym and change for the better, a man can look at his social situation and say "I love myself" and still go on to change for the better.
Anything less than a striving for betterment is stagnation. We can chose to be growing or fading in the facets of our life. I chose to grow.
[–]Kardlonoc 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Why do you need seddit then?
[–]Mat_Cauthon 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Need? I don't need it. I just use it as a tool to forge my identity.
[–]Kardlonoc 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Good answer.
[–]throwaway42 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
I think by seddits standards or anyone he just had a gross misapplication of the learning material
Yet you still say that what he is trying to make you become is what one will become if one follows seddit's advice.
"You are not good enough"
See Mat_Cauthon's reply. To me 'Be yourself' also means you should stay congruent. Lead an interesting life so you can enjoy it more and make others enjoy your company, but don't wear a mask, don't bend yourself and don't pretend.
men need to build this grand facade to impress women.
It's not a facade, it's leading an interesting life. You as the one who leads it get the most out of it.
Its not your accomplishment is someone elses accomplishment you just read his video game like guide book to get to the final level.
You are oversimplifying social interaction. Understanding social interaction and attraction and all that helps, but it is never as straightforward as something you'd find in /r/howto.
This paragraph is so mangled I am not sure I understand what you are trying to say. You can be very experienced in social situations and still be so boring that you don't attract anyone. Also read up on the 'married man challenge' that was posted in seddit some time ago. The principles still apply in a relationship.
It basically ends in sex and of course it should if you want that girl. [...] Don't kid yourself into this whole thing was created so guys could find long lasting relationships.
The whole boy/girl thing usually leads to sex, with or without seduction/pua knowledge. Just with it the chances something comes of it are higher. Whether or not it becomes an ons or a ltr mostly depends on one party saying 'You should be aware that I am not looking for more' or not. It does not matter whether the situation arose with or without seduction/pua knowledge.
You realize that PUA's themselves call their methods tricks right? They are psychological tricks, language traps and what not designed to force attraction.
There is more than one meaning to the word trick. You seem to want to use it in a sense of deceit, but it is being used in a sense of ability/skill. Hence why I don't refer to it as tricks, to avoid the ambiguity.
without IOI's or [if] she bluntly says "no" chances [are] you will move on to someone else. As soon as you do that you are playing a numbers game of finding a girl who is looking for exactly what you are looking for.
Without seduction/pua knowledge, 'he' might just not be able to tell whether or not 'she' is interested (point in case: lots of askreddit/sex/ra posts about whether she is interested or just being nice). If she isn't, why pursue further? And again, with or without seduction/pua knowledge, people are looking for others that want the same as they do. Just this knowledge helps to find someone suitable, and then to make it go somewhere.
What it amounts to however is a fitness plan or a diet.
Yes. Some people need those because they didn't just 'get' nutrition and staying in shape naturally. So they read up on how it works. Your point is?
Your example is flawed in several ways. Firstly, you assume that they will use their understanding of social dynamics for Bad Stuff (tm). Secondly you try to liken pickup to sending 'your kids off to die in a war'. Thirdly you assume that people will not call the politician out on his bad policies because he is so 'charismatic'.
Pua can be used this way or that, but it can't be used to magically get women to sleep with you against their will. How you come to try and liken it to sending people to war is beyond me. And lastly, if people don't call the politician out on his policies because he's so charismatic they want to be deceived. Cognitive disconnection or something.
Its was a worse interpretation of the seduction material mostly because it got muddled with a bunch of other junk. As far as seduction knowledge go 2nd hand wise seddit is the best by far or at least by my knowledge.
Oh yes the "interesting life". Now how is that being yourself? What if your interests arent interesting to others? What If I don't want to backpack around europe just so I can brag to other people basically? At what point does doing things for yourself basically crosses over for the sake picking up women?
Yes yes going places and doing things. And you have to do this get with ladies correct? You don't see at all as being part of the facade?
But this was originally refering to something else. More along the lines of how to dress to impress ladies,w hat to do to seduce ladies, Topics conversation tailored for ladies, how your body mannerisms should be around ladies etc. Any time seddit suggests "this what you should do..." Its just another brick in the facade you are building.
But its alright. All social interaction is built on lies. Everyone hates honesty.
Its a game. Literally the premier fucking book of the community is called "the game". Experience is gained through social interaction and you eventually level up. Stupid and nerdy as that sounds its basically the first advice new comers get here. The way reports are done here makes it seem very game like as well.
Figuring out a woman's brain of course is very tough but it can be done and simplified. That essence is basically the advice you read or hear about it given by others.
I apologize I am tired. But really? I thought just be being yourself was enough was good enough! You mean there are some sort of tricks you need to use to attract others?!
The whole boy/girl thing usually leads to sex, with or without seduction/pua knowledge.
Being friendzoned is much higher is a male does not know he has to show some sexual interest.
Whether or not it becomes an ons or a ltr mostly depends on one party saying 'You should be aware that I am not looking for more' or not. It does not matter whether the situation arose with or without seduction/pua knowledge.
I guess the term "pick up artist" was made for ltrs as well? He dates a chick for a about a year and picks up another one or something?
I don't think there is much wrong with guys using this for solely ltr's but the terminology screams one night stand and its baffling to think otherwise.
But mostly my complaint with your idea that it could be used for ltr is that there is nothing, no advice after you engage in that relationship. I guess technically it falls in another field but to me it seems it was intended for one night stands.
This isn't true seduction in a sense its playing the numbers. Ask a hundred girls for sex chances are one will say yes. The idea of moving on quickly is established to increase your chances to sleep with a women that night. Ill admit its not all numbers game obviously but the idea moving on quickly is very one night stand sort of mentality instead. And when you say looking for what others want is the same it sort of enforces my point that basically its for that one night stand.
They are unnecessary. They are substituting will for following orders. But you might be right: some people do in fact need them.
Oh of course there are good politicians and bad politicians don't get me wrong. But in politics its always the lesser of two evils or the more charismatic one.
Pua can be used this way or that, but it can't be used to magically get women to sleep with you against their will. How you come to try and liken it to sending people to war is beyond me.
That wasn't really my intent but let me put this way: A girls snatch is her most precious thing and to even look at it requires you to instill a great deal of emotions in her about you. Things like trust, love, confidence, value, etc all things you need to build up.
In essence a mothers son is basically the same thing: Her most precious thing. And a politician needs to somehow convince her that sending her him off is the right thing to do. Of course there is little logic behind it so the politician needs to instill emotions in her to make her accept this.
And lastly, if people don't call the politician out on his policies because he's so charismatic they want to be deceived. Cognitive disconnection or something.
I think this might be part of seduction as well at least with physically attractive men.
[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points 15 years ago (15 children) | Copy Link
I was under the impression that we disliked you because of the absolute absurdity in the way you seem to view women
all the phrases and whatnot make you sound extraordinarily stupid, to boot
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 15 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link
Well when this post is only number 200 on my all page I'd say there's around a 100% chance I'll see it. I think last night I hit 8000? I have a reddit problem.
[–]chumpta[S] 1 point2 points3 points 15 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link
wow that's fucking hilarious, i was under the impression that the way we view women was practical and effective, and i've seen it work before my very eyes.
guess i was wrong, thanks internet superhero
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link
It may very well be "practical and effective," notice I never will dispute the effectiveness of your methods. I can guarantee they will work, and probably a good percentage of the time. This does nothing to change the fact that you seem to view women as objects, and in my opinion that is wrong.
You should know that there is a way to have sex with women AND look for a lasting relationship SIMULTANEOUSLY. But you, gasp, might have to genuinely try and get to know every girl you approach. I know, you probably shudder at the very thought.
[–]afcanonymous 1 point2 points3 points 15 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
So, what makes you think we never do that? I never call them one night stands, I like calling them many night stands :D
Nothing does, good sir. I understand that there are probably many people on this subby that DON'T objectify women, and for that I applaud you.
I am only commenting on how the previous poster and how the very few things I see from here make you appear, nothing more and nothing less.
Meh, I understand. I hate frat boys, and funnily enough, some of my closest friends are ex frat boys.
[–]chumpta[S] 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
so then you could say that anyone can use these methods, and whether or not they view women as objects is their own personal thing?
there are "PUAS" who view women as objects and others that dont. there are also guys who have never heard of it who view women as objects and others that don't. it's not a PUA thing, it's a personality thing.
dude, I know you're really enjoying downvoting my posts before reading then typing a response while foaming at the mouth with joy defending your new PUA identity, but could you please READ them?
"This does nothing to change the fact that you seem to view women as objects"
You can do absolutely nothing to change the fact that you SEEM to view women as objects. Whether or not one does I could not tell you without examination of them, individually.
Also, it is bad reddiquette to downvote someone for disagreeing with you.. I don't suspect you care. Here, your first upvote will be from my own hand.
[–]chumpta[S] 1 point2 points3 points 15 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
:\ fine i take it back. i just mad.
for "the record" i don't view women as objects and i never really have. i enjoy the time i spend with girls doing this stuff, and when i have sex it's never this "pump and dump" or "mechanical sex" thing that i hear about.
it may sound weird but in r/seduction i feel like i need to defend those who DO see women as objects, if that makes any sense. a sort of "i dont like what you have to say but ill defend your right to say it" type thing. that, and i also think it's true that some women like to feel like sexual objects. NOT ALL, NOT MOST, but some.
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
I do understand that sort of mentality, and I respect your decision to reverse the downvotes. I am departing this thread.
Good luck on your next sarge.. Am I doin' it right?
[–]chumpta[S] 1 point2 points3 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
YES THANK YOU
you have restored a bit of my faith in humanity
[–]jeremyosborne81 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link
It IS pretty douchey when most of the articles are stories only about getting women into bed. Whatever happened to building a lasting relationship?
Let me ask you a question.
Would you build a lasting relationship with each and every person that you happen to meet on a street? That you have a conversation with? That you shake hands or have sex with?
How about getting to know the person first? Why not start with getting to know if she is actually any good in bed?
And it just so happens that if you fuck them first, everything else is much easier later on. And having a relationship becomes your decision on a pretty large part. Because you are a quality person, that the girl wants to be with. Not some needy dude, that can't stop chasing her tail.
[–]philosarapter 2 points3 points4 points 15 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
Why would I want to build a lasting relationship? That is not my intention, nor was it ever.
[–]Fred_Flintstone 6 points7 points8 points 15 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
^ This shouldn't be getting downvoted. The main criticism of seddit is that it is about manipulating women - actually it is the opposite: typically people here let women know their exact intentions, whether they short or long term. When a guy buys a drink for a stranger in a bar THAT is manipulative - you are wanting/expecting something in return for your "favour".
Another point is that nearly all women want short term relationships at some point in their life (whether they admit it to friends or not (don't want to appear slutty often)).
[–]absolutebeginners 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Good argument. If anything, PUA's are being more "real" and upfront about their feelings than these chumps trying to buy a relationship with drinks and flowers. Nobody said PUA isn't about finding a relationship. It is however, about finding the perfect one, not one of opportunity
[–]jmnugent 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
"typically people here let women know their exact intentions, whether they are short or long term."
You know.. I've heard this explanation...time and time again, but I still don't believe it. Not even a little.
I'm 37yrs old. .and I've been in countless real-life situations where so-called PUA types interact with women.. and not a single one of them was honest, clear or direct. (coy word games, endless flirting, awkward attempts to corner her into agreeing to something)
I know what you're going to say: "Oh, but the types of dudes you describe aren't ACTUAL pua's .. those are the lame/n00b/game-players that don't represent the REAL-pua style."
Ok,.. great.. so when will I ever get to see this "real-pua" style?... Surely with so many people defending it.. it must be happening so often I could literally bump into it at any bar or club.. yet I never seem to.
Weird.
Having read everything you've posted in this thread, you really seem like an AFC. You seem like the type of person who wants to force his own worldview on everyone around them, and you seem like you can't fathom why anyone would see things differently.
You also seem very bitter.
Now, these are all my perceptions, so I'm not sure how you're going to be able to tell me I'm wrong, but I'm sure you'll try.
You're free to have that opinion, but considering the only thing you know about me is Reddit comments (which is a very tiny fraction of my online activity)... Its probably a little presumptious to say you know me.
Now, if you knew me in person,.. And knew all my past girlfriends/relationships,.. Then I'd imagine you'd have a much more accurate picture.
[–]future_pope 5 points6 points7 points 15 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link
Not necessarily. I think PUAs approach women like most men approach video games. They first try and buy at the store. If it sticks, rent or buy the game. If not, leave it be. They then play said game - maybe a few concurrently - before finding one they really enjoy and stick with. That's why the pickup community is so littered with former PUAs who later malign the community: they found a game of which they cannot get enough, and consequently all other games seem secondary for them. We'll call that a long-term relationship.
You can call that dehumanizing and you can decry it for being douchey, but the issue here is that these guys have simply learned how to exert more power during the casual relationship period. They've realized that we live in a world of sexual abundance, not scarcity. Eventually that mentality grows old for some, but not for all. Why is that douchey when desirable members of both sexes play that way?
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 15 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
"I think PUAs approach women like most men approach video games." "You can call that dehumanizing"
Why yes, yes you could, because that's exactly what it is.
[–]chumpta[S] -1 points0 points1 point 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
it's very human what i do to a vagina once it's been opened for me
[–]chumpta[S] -1 points0 points1 point 15 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
this subreddit is about getting women into bed. thusly thats what the articles are about.
[–]shitlikethat 1 point2 points3 points 15 years ago* (12 children) | Copy Link
i just find trudging through the terminology and acronyms to be a pain in the ass.
[–][deleted] 15 years ago* (4 children) | Copy Link
[–]moonjellies 5 points6 points7 points 15 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
lol comparing pua acronyms to physics
[–]philosarapter 2 points3 points4 points 15 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
even the most brilliant scientists have trouble with women.
[–]B-Rabbit 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
While some don't.
[–]shitlikethat -1 points0 points1 point 15 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link
hardly. you proclaim this as an "art" yet you go and compare it to a science? i don't think you know what you're talking about. the two words are mutually exclusive.
by saying the terminology is a pain in the ass i mean that it makes the "art of seduction" more exclusive than you make it out to be. sure there are some definitions on the sidebar, but i've seen more than my fair share of "FRs" that include some terms that aren't there. that is a mere slight discouragement, but as a newcomer i find it to be something that isn't all that welcoming.
[–]Bumzors 1 point2 points3 points 15 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
You're right, it's not hard, but that's not the point. It's just, why say "She was a total HB 8.2343 repeating brahskis, and she was totally dropping IOIs" when you could just as easily say "she was really attractive and she seemed into me"? It doesn't feel quite as contrived and forced when you just use natural language instead of some ridiculous metric for judging something that is completely subjective anyways. It defeats the purpose of measurement and it sounds smug.
I have zero problem with confident fellas going out and getting what they want they want from women, even if I'm not sure if I agree with it. It's the silly, completely unnecessary jargon that turns me off.
[–]Thumperings 2 points3 points4 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
They just like mission impossible imagery.
[–]joazito 1 point2 points3 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
It's not silly, it just speeds things up. There is jargon in every field that could be said differently but it really helps to learn it so you can better/faster convey what you mean.
Practitioners of any field with a large enough body of knowledge will develop their own lingo. You think it's silly and completely unnecessary, but in PUA community it serves one more purpose: kind of a secret language used for field trips.
Read the explanation of the HB scale please. It's not entirely about looks and conveys more than subjective beauty. And the concept of IOIs gives you an idea of whether you are imagining things or getting genuine indication of interest (duh). I see a lot of posts like 'is (s)he being friendly or flirting?'. Look out for IOIs and you know.
[–]Bumzors 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I have. It does not change my opinion. I'll also be honest and say I wrote that while I was drunk after a night out, so my reasoning and logic may have been off. But still...
The reason I'm against it is it essentially turns "seduction" (whether that be getting the girl of your dreams or getting the girl for tonight) into something...how do I word this? Less genuine, I suppose. Seduction should be natural. Sure, you may have to learn it, but that doesn't mean it should be so mechanical. It should be organic, if you will. Adding all the jargon and such, to me, makes it feel much less so.
Reading the stories on here has been like reading a car manual. I think that does a disservice to the budding pick-up artists because it basically changes their thought process from "I find him/her to be attractive, I'm going to go talk to him/her" to "Okay, she's an HB8.5, so I should follow step 1A and 2C, follow the flow chart, and circle back and reassess." I think all the terms do is reinforce this mindset. Form follows function. Natural language, natural approaching and adaptation. The best advice I've seen on here is "Just keep doing it." Getting better at pick up isn't going to evolve through learning all this jargon, it'll evolve through simply going and talking to people. I mean, as far as I can tell, David Wygant is like a sage on this board, but I haven't heard him use a lick of any of these terms (granted, I haven't listened to/read him all that much). I'm really happy to see a lot of people pushing this philosophy on the people posting stories.
But that might just be me. If you guys want to keep plugging away with the terms and overcomplication, go for it. To each, his own. All it costs me is a quick sigh and an eyeroll before I continue reading.
[–]switchmotiv 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
The only thing that bothers me is that when if first started reading i had to learn 100 different terms and their abbreviations.
[–]B-Rabbit 1 point2 points3 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
It's not something you need to know, like with a language. Just check what it means when you see one.
[–]partywithyou 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I am never alone but I do enjoy Seddit. It's a good read.
[–]chumpta[S] -1 points0 points1 point 15 years ago (17 children) | Copy Link
well this was just a little thing i thought was funny that seddit would like. i come back and see shit like this:
I think some of the haters (rightly) understand that there's a shallowness to the game. It IS pretty douchey when most of the articles are stories only about getting women into bed. Whatever happened to building a lasting relationship? I was under the impression that we disliked you because of the absolute absurdity in the way you seem to view women all the phrases and whatnot make you sound extraordinarily stupid, to boot. My thoughts exactly. I have been following this subreddit for a while now, and while I find some of it interesting and the theories sometimes make sense, I can't help but think it is a game of manipulation where you view people as objects you must play in order to get what you want. It doesn't seem much like you care about other people, you are just after what YOU want. Fair enough, I guess that is what being an 'alpha male' is. I think there is much more to life than spinning plates and and neging people though.
I was under the impression that we disliked you because of the absolute absurdity in the way you seem to view women all the phrases and whatnot make you sound extraordinarily stupid, to boot.
I really want to know - who the fuck are you people and why are you here? I don't like programming, I think its boring and I find the uber-nerdy to be insufferably annoying. so guess what? IM NOT SUBSCRIBED TO THE PROGRAMMING REDDIT. Seriously, who the fuck are you guys? Go away, leave us the fuck alone. if you want to whine about pickup go to 2x. and take the faggots that upvoted you along for the ride.
if you think im wrong then let me be wrong and ill figure it out myself, i dont need you to hold my hand.
[–][deleted] 15 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link
[+]chumpta[S] -8 points-7 points-6 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
hey, i didnt come at you, but it's rude to watch a circlejerk without lending a hand.
im fine with a distaste for jargon. but i also think that if you are "for realz" you will hang around here long enough to pick most of it up.
those who dislike it because its "shallow" or "manipulative" have either:
1.) heard us say that we think pickup is a tool that can be used morally or amorally, and refuse/don't want to believe it.
2.) haven't heard that argument yet and once they do perhaps will reconsider, or fall into camp #1.
i think camp #1 are a bunch of soaked, whiny pussies, and i think they should fucking leave. like i said, i dont subscribe to subreddits dealing with things that i dont like. i'd love to hear a GOOD reason why they are here. "to laff at these douches" is not a valid excuse.
[–]jeremyosborne81 4 points5 points6 points 15 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Wow. So we found "The Situations" reddit account.
ay yo happy reddit birthday
[–]Thumperings 1 point2 points3 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
That was hilarious
[–]b34ch3r2 points 15 years ago [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link
That rant makes you sound like such a beta. What's with the attitude problem? And why assume responsibility/authority when someone's merely expressing a point of view?
you know what you're right it's reactive and i shouldn't be letting these people get under my skin. every so often i have a little rage about seduction on reddit and get my fingers typing. it used to be on that occasional thread that was somewhere on the rest of reddit, though. I never saw it around here.
then all the sudden we've got 13000 subscribers and a bunch of them are from the rest of reddit. lo and behold you have a subreddit now where lurkers come out of the woodwork to tell you they disagree with essentially everything that the subreddit is about. do they really have no other reason to be here than that? you know what a beta is, you found the beta in my post. why don't these other betas piss you off?
there is no way to get them to leave, i know its fruitless, but i was hoping maybe i could piss some of them off enough to go away. i failed to realize the reason they came here was to watch us squirm when they pop in and say "no u guys r bad, ur manipulatin"
open for criticism is one thing, but you don't go into a political subreddit and try to convert everybody to the complete opposite side.
Whats 2x?
[–]Fred_Flintstone 1 point2 points3 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
/r/2XChromosones - subreddit for women
i was waiting for one of these. i tried some other words first. faggot was the only thing that really hammered the point home for me.
im of the "eminem" school of the word faggot. the only time i dont like gay people is when they touch my butt. sorry if i offended you.
are you a hate-lurker here? maybe you could help me understand why you're subscribed to a subreddit full of people you do things you dont like.
[–]chumpta[S] 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
aw isn't it so sweet when we all just get along
© TheRedArchive 2026. All rights reserved.created by /u/dream-hunter
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[–]anonymous_hero -1 points0 points1 point (4 children) | Copy Link
[–]Thumperings -3 points-2 points-1 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]chumpta[S] 0 points1 point2 points (3 children) | Copy Link
[–]MonkeySteriods -2 points-1 points0 points (2 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]MonkeySteriods -1 points0 points1 point (0 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] (1 child) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] -5 points-4 points-3 points (18 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 6 points7 points8 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[+][deleted] -6 points-5 points-4 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 5 points6 points7 points (5 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] -5 points-4 points-3 points (4 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points (3 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points (2 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]ZombieDracula 1 point2 points3 points (2 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]ZombieDracula 1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]absolutebeginners 1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points (4 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point (3 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points (2 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point (1 child) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]Kardlonoc 5 points6 points7 points (14 children) | Copy Link
[–]chumpta[S] 0 points1 point2 points (2 children) | Copy Link
[–]Kardlonoc 0 points1 point2 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]chumpta[S] 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]throwaway42 -1 points0 points1 point (9 children) | Copy Link
[–]Kardlonoc 0 points1 point2 points (8 children) | Copy Link
[–]throwaway42 0 points1 point2 points (7 children) | Copy Link
[–]Kardlonoc 0 points1 point2 points (6 children) | Copy Link
[–]Mat_Cauthon 0 points1 point2 points (3 children) | Copy Link
[–]Kardlonoc 0 points1 point2 points (2 children) | Copy Link
[–]Mat_Cauthon 0 points1 point2 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]Kardlonoc 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]throwaway42 0 points1 point2 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]Kardlonoc 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points (15 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] (1 child) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]chumpta[S] 1 point2 points3 points (11 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points (8 children) | Copy Link
[–]afcanonymous 1 point2 points3 points (2 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]afcanonymous 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]chumpta[S] 0 points1 point2 points (4 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points (3 children) | Copy Link
[–]chumpta[S] 1 point2 points3 points (2 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]chumpta[S] 1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]jeremyosborne81 0 points1 point2 points (14 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]philosarapter 2 points3 points4 points (5 children) | Copy Link
[–]Fred_Flintstone 6 points7 points8 points (4 children) | Copy Link
[–]absolutebeginners 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]jmnugent 0 points1 point2 points (2 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]jmnugent 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]future_pope 5 points6 points7 points (3 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]chumpta[S] -1 points0 points1 point (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]chumpta[S] -1 points0 points1 point (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]shitlikethat 1 point2 points3 points (12 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] (4 children) | Copy Link
[–]moonjellies 5 points6 points7 points (2 children) | Copy Link
[–]philosarapter 2 points3 points4 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]B-Rabbit 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]shitlikethat -1 points0 points1 point (0 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] (6 children) | Copy Link
[–]Bumzors 1 point2 points3 points (5 children) | Copy Link
[–]Thumperings 2 points3 points4 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]joazito 1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]throwaway42 0 points1 point2 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]Bumzors 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]switchmotiv 0 points1 point2 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]B-Rabbit 1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]partywithyou 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]chumpta[S] -1 points0 points1 point (17 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] (1 child) | Copy Link
[+]chumpta[S] -8 points-7 points-6 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]jeremyosborne81 4 points5 points6 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]chumpta[S] -1 points0 points1 point (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]Thumperings 1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]b34ch3r2 points [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]chumpta[S] 1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]Fred_Flintstone 1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] (5 children) | Copy Link
[–]chumpta[S] 0 points1 point2 points (4 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] (3 children) | Copy Link
[–]chumpta[S] 0 points1 point2 points (2 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]chumpta[S] 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link