"Unfair, but necessary"

EvilPundit · 2012-10-12T02:56:56+00:00

Tell them that in that case, it's necessary for men to assume all women are false accusers, gold diggers, paternity fraudsters, etc ...

See if they still think it's a good idea.

bodmon · 2012-10-12T02:52:40+00:00

"So why are you hanging out with me, then?"

ibm2431 · 2012-10-12T03:49:04+00:00

You have to internalize the "black test". Every time someone says the words "all", "assume", "reasonable", or "necessary", your mind should jump immediately to replacing 'men' with 'blacks', 'women' with 'whites', and all relevant words from 'rape' to 'steal'. When someone makes a statement like your "friend" did, respond with the equivalent, exactly, save for the replacements you make:

"We have to assume all men are rapists to protect ourselves. It's unfair, but it's necessary."

"We have to assume all blacks are thieves to protect ourselves. It's unfair, but it's necessary."

The idea is to frame it from a perspective of a 'protected' class in hopes they'll realize just how bigoted they're being. 'Jews' work as well, and sometimes 'Arabs' depending on your audience. Neofeminists have been trained to instantly realize injustices against the protected classes, so the moment you take their words and apply it to said class, they should realize the injustice against men.

If they don't, it's because they're willfully ignorant of it. In such case, just walk away. You can't convince those people.

Every time you see a quote from a neofeminist via links on r/MR, do a replacement to yourself as practice. If you train yourself to think, "What if it was a statement against blacks?" you'll be far more likely to respond with it during in-person interactions.

CaptSnap · 2012-10-12T03:41:47+00:00

Its called Schrodinger's rapist.

Its the idea that women dont know which guys are and are not rapists so they have to assume all of us are.

Heres how you can point out the flaw and probably lose a few friends. Ask them why they feel afraid of half the population on the planet. On what grounds are they justified in neurotically living in fear of half of all human beings alive. They will probably mention the Crime Victimization Surveys. Here they are in use. Im sure youve run across some of the "factoids". Their argument may go something like this, "Since 1 in 6 women is a victim its just common sense to protect yourself."

Sure...common sense.

So what if you made a website about false rape allegations? They would probably insist those are rare and maybe even suggest it would be misogynistic.

Well what if you called people and asked if they were the victim of a false rape allegation? (see the parallel?...thats actually what the crime victimization surveys do) You would have little trouble finding self-reported victimization.

In fact, lets say by some fluke your first couple of surveys actually showed false allegation rates to be low. (This actually happened to Mary Koss, the author of the 1 in 4 women will be raped before they get off the bus at college study) So, like Koss, you decided to instead to decide for yourself if the person was a victim or not and then published this new set of statistics.

But lets say the rates were still low. So lets say you then decided to just redefine what false means, or what rape means (this is actually happening right now), or what an allegation means. Now lets say youve got the definition so broad that anything COULD be a false rape allegation. (for context if you have sex with a girl and she decides mid-thrust that she no longer wants to have sex, withdrawing consent, but doesnt tell you....its still rape)

Now youve got the numbers and youve got the exposure so youre ready to start printing posters showing women with the caption, "My strength is not for lieing or manipulating." Except theres no outrage when you paint women like this because after all...everyone at this point knows what lieing cheating monsters they are.

Now ask them how they feel about bigotry.

Shattershift · 2012-10-12T03:49:16+00:00

That's the same reason I don't leave my children alone with women, because I don't want to come back to find them drowned in a bathtub.

Unfair, but necessary.

Manatee7474 · 2012-10-12T03:15:44+00:00

We have to assume that all Arabs are terrorists. It's unfair, but necessary.

Lord_Sanders · 2012-10-12T06:27:42+00:00

UPDATE: I brought it up again with one of my friends and had the following conversation.

Her: Our society is so overly sexualized and degrading towards women. Who do you think made that happen? Men. So, it is not unfair to say that a lot of men in the world do not think well of women, do whatever they want with women, and therefore it is not a bad thing to assume that men have dirty minds.

Myself: How are men responsible for that? (Our society being so overly sexualized)

Her: Because why on Earth would we objectify ourselves, and...-- [Shuts up]

After several minutes of humble defeat and solemn admittance that she probably did have a bias after all, she said that it's not all women's fault either

I told her I agree. I just want there to be a fair and equal blame. It's not all men. It's not all women. These are individual people that do not represent their entire gender

Even then, yeah, that shouldn't matter. Regardless of how sexual this society is, it's incredibly unfair to assume men can't keep it in their pants and are raving dogs the second they see a miniskirt...

c0mputar · 2012-10-12T02:26:21+00:00

Well I hope you eventually point out how incredibly offensive and sexist that was. Just because they think it's justifiable does not absolve them of their sinful attitude. We can do the same shit for any number of things, but in those cases it's rightfully pointed out to be racist, sexist, bigoted, etc... But, for some reason, when it comes to men, it's more likely to be accepted.

Curebores · 2012-10-12T02:36:34+00:00

It's circular reasoning. We fear men, therefore we protect ourselves, we feel the need to protect ourselves, therefore we fear men, etc etc etc...

Phuzzums · 2012-10-12T02:40:56+00:00

There isn't anything wrong with protecting yourself when you feel threatened, the problem is assuming that half the population is a threat. It is not men these women are threatened by, it is the extremist negative idea of men that they have been indoctrinated to believe represents all men. Being afraid and always being on edge around half the population sounds like a pretty terrible way to live as well.

OuiCrudites · 2012-10-12T04:51:04+00:00

"We white people have to assume that all black people are crackheads and all Latinos are illegals. Unfair, but necessary."

Also-

"We Christians have to assume that all Muslims are going to blow up schoolbuses for global Jihad. Unfair, but necessary."

Cool?

typhonblue · 2012-10-12T05:15:32+00:00

Why don't you assume they're rapists?

Female rapists love to believe that only men can be rapists, so your friends most likely are rapists. Thieves think everyone's a thief and all that...

Ask them if they've ever forced a man to have sex with them or raped one who was passed out?

Lord_Sanders · 2012-10-12T04:16:00+00:00

What would I say to something like that? One word:

"Bye."

Ma99ie · 2012-10-12T16:54:26+00:00

It's only fair. And in return, just assume all women are false rape accusing, manipulative whores who are in it for child support. I'm sure they'll understand.

throwaway6432 · 2012-10-12T06:15:31+00:00

I personally would feel bad for them. It's going to be tough forming healthy relationships with men in any way shape or form where the starting point is 'rapist'.

"A stranger is a friend you haven't met" is a lot nicer than

"A stranger is a rapist who hasn't raped you yet"

nlakes · 2012-10-12T04:46:57+00:00

"We have to assume all women are abusive(*) to protect ourselves. It's unfair, but it's necessary. "

(*)Source: In abusive relationships, 70% of nonreciprocal (i.e. one way abuse) is committed by women.

JoolNoret · 2012-10-12T04:02:04+00:00

"I can't help but think all girls are shallow and only in it for my money and stuff. A pre-nup is unfair, but necessary." Should shut them up.

rottingchrist · 2012-10-12T08:54:39+00:00

What do you say to something like that?

Be disgusted, and get away from them for calling you a potential rapist.

Why associate with those who hold you in such contempt?

2012-10-12T14:41:48+00:00

We have to assume all women are gold diggers to protect ourselves. It's unfair, but it's necessary.

We have to assume all women are false rape accusers to protect ourselves. It's unfair, but it's necessary.

We have to assume all women are cheaters to protect ourselves from paternity fraud. It's unfair, but it's necessary.

Edit: I hope i don't need a /s to show i am being sarcastic.

TracyMorganFreeman · 2012-10-12T15:17:14+00:00

You know what was "unfair, but necessary"? The dynamic we had for centuries that women today claim was oppressive.

Can't have it both ways, people.

Nepene · 2012-10-12T08:44:44+00:00

Turning this back on them won't work, they'll get defensive. Comparing this to fearing blacks is worse, they probably do fear blacks and think black people want to rape and kill them.

You have to take their narrative and gut and kill it. Their narrative is that society is too sexual and rapey and so women have to fear all men. In actuality, most men are happy to defend and protect women and care about their feelings, love women, and would never rape them. It is easy to spot those who are willing to hurt women.

Who are rapists?

Most are drunk or high. This is a very easy test of a man- if they are drunk or high they are more likely to rape. Most rapes happen while both participants are drugged up.

Most are socially inept. Rape is difficult, rape is risky, most prefer to get sex through conventional means. If they can get laid without rape they will.

Most lack empathy for people's pain. If someone is in pain most won't want to have sex.

Most come from a single parent background or had a broken home life. No father means no one to teach you strong moral values often enough.

They don't tend to have a girlfriend or wife, and are horny. They'll normally try to get sex through other means first.

A small minority are macho men- athletic, violent, macho. A parody of manhood. Also easy to spot.

What do you say? The vast majority of men don't share any characteristics with rapists, you have little to fear in most settings with sober men, by fearing everyone irrationally you are reducing your ability to see real rapists, you sexist lady. Seeing all men as rapists is unhelpful and likely to increase your chance of being raped over someone who knows who is likely to be one and can get more emphatic men to protect them.

Society is oversexual due to women's desire to flaunt themselves. It's no accident that in the age of feminism free sex and sexual advertisements became much more common and porn took off. Women like the attention they get from sex. And I have no desire to oppose this.

The sexualization of society has little to do with rape, most rape is done by people with low self esteem and targets people with low self confidence. Society isn't especially more vulnerable now except in that people feel confident getting drunk and falling semi unconscious with obvious rapists who tell them rape jokes and use violence to solve personal problems.

Unconfidence · 2012-10-12T05:55:19+00:00

I have a personal anecdote I drop.

Fourteen years ago I was mugged by a black guy. A year later it happened again, different black guy. My friend got hit in the face with a brick at a party, black guy. House robbed, they end up catching the people, it's a group of black guys. A week later, house gets robbed again, this time they bust in with shotguns and beat my roommate senseless, and probably traumatized a young woman. All black guys.

Then I say, "I'm not racist, and it's cowardly of you to be sexist as a form of self-defense."

HalfysReddit · 2012-10-12T12:10:58+00:00

Ask them if it's alright to assume all black people are criminals, ya know just to be on the safe side.

Statistically that's a much more fair statement actually (despite them both being complete bullshit).

JockeVXO · 2012-10-12T20:10:13+00:00

But men don't have to assume all women are rapists?

I'd point out men are raped by women in comparable rates to women being raped by men. And that their sexism in ignoring this fact is bigotry.

2012-10-13T03:01:58+00:00

"It's unfair, but it's necessary."

To call women false accusers

To call women cheaters

To call women inconsiderate to mens feelings when they get pregnant on a lie

To call women control freaks when they are the ones ruining a marriage or a relationship

To call women jealous or stuck up when they bitch about anything men related

rightsbot · 2012-10-12T02:24:21+00:00

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2012-10-12T12:29:54+00:00

Introduce them to a group of Nazis. They will like their mindset of broad all-encompassing retarded prejudice.

buster2209 · 2012-10-12T13:54:10+00:00

"We have to assume all women are going to going to use the law to fuck men over via false allegations. It's unfair, but it's necessary"

DavidByron · 2012-10-12T14:16:45+00:00

"We have to assume all gay people are sexual deviants, to protect our kids. It's unfair but necessary."

Your friends are bigots.

2012-10-12T14:18:03+00:00

"We have to assume that all women are false rape accusers - unfair but necessary."

JeffHorlick · 2012-10-12T14:40:00+00:00

By this logic all women are adulterous whores who just marry for money.

Octagonecologyst · 2012-10-12T11:44:53+00:00

Why do you care? Honest question.

Xenoith · 2012-10-12T04:17:52+00:00

It's a stupid thing to say because you can say that about literally anyone or anything. A dog can turn on you for no reason. A black man can mug you, are you going to assume all black men are muggers to protect yourself? Ignore these idiots. Maybe they should carry a weapon if they're so scared of living these paranoid delusions.

Theophagist · 2012-10-12T09:23:40+00:00

All people are all things, assume that to protect yourself.

DerpaNerb · 2012-10-12T15:41:00+00:00

There is no reason for you to agree or partially agree at all... the response is actually quite simple.

Assuming all men are rapists in order to protect against rape is a false dichotomy (and a sexist one at that). They are trying to say they have two choices:

1) Assume all men are rapists and that doing so is the only way to protect themselves

or

2) Assume all men are good and that they cannot possible protect themselves.

The problem with this is that there is obviously a middle-ground. They should assume that some people (and in their case, most likely men) are rapists, but because they do not know when or where these rapists will be around, that it makes sense for them to be prepared all of the time.

You don't wear a seat belt every day when you drive to work because you treat every single other person on the road as a shit driver who doesn't care about any rules of the road. You wear a seat-belt because one of those people MIGHT be an asshole driver that will run a redlight and t-bone your car... to bring this back to rape, you take precautions because someone there MIGHT be a rapist. You cannot possibly control any of the factors that determine whether you might be around a rapist, which is why you control the factors that you do in fact have control of: which is whether you are protected in case there is.

Also, I would be very offended if I were you because they are basically telling you that they have to treat you like a rapist every time they interact with you.

As an aside: (I wrote this then realized it's kind of irrelevant to the point you are trying to make, but I don't really want to delete it).

There are 4 possibilities when a girl goes out:

1) she is not prepared and no rapists are present. 2) She is not prepared and a rapist is present 3) She is prepared and no rapists are present. 4) She is prepared and a rapist is present.

Now the only situation where a rape actually occurs, is scenario 2. You/she cannot control whether a rapist is present, but you can control whether you are prepared. The only difference between 1 and 2 is whether you are prepared.

double-happiness · 2012-10-12T16:35:21+00:00

One problem with that line of thinking is that it actually disadvantages women by denying them the possibility of rational discrimination.

Let's take a plausible scenario. Miss X is walking home late one night when she notices a dishevelled man walking behind her, carrying a half-empty alcohol bottle, and muttering under his breath. She feels nervous, and considers stopping a well-dressed man walking a dog on the other side of the street. She could pretend to ask directions and see if the dishevelled man will go on his way.

Now, is Miss X wrong to consider taking this approach? I would say not. Assessing potential threat from others is an obvious survival strategy, though appearances can be deceptive. So why deny women the right to trust men they perceive as trustworthy? People can be pretty good judges of character, on the whole.

Here's the other thing that strikes me about this view: I actually think the whole "people are all capable of potential x/y/z crime / atrocity" view is pretty overblown. For a start, you have to exclude all the people who aren't physically capable of committing rape, assault or murder, for whatever reason. There are also a lot of people who are just far too timid to commit any kind of act like that. There are also people who are far too kind. I think the assumption that 'all men are rapists' detracts from the mainly peace-loving cultures we live in where, in my estimation, far more men would try to stop a woman from being raped than would try to rape her.

PlayMeWhile · 2012-10-12T10:09:02+00:00

"We have to assume all men are rapists to protect ourself. It's unfair, but it's necessary."

How would that assumption work for anyone? After this assumption - did she change her behaviour in any way? If your friend is talking like that and still hangs out in public alongside men - she is only paying lip service.

2012-10-12T09:10:45+00:00

They would be acting reasonably if rape was common. The truth is that violent rape (i.e. real rape) is very rare. But the propaganda says otherwise. Not sure how to handle this stuff.

Title	"Unfair, but necessary"
Author	Lord_Sanders
Upvotes	43
Comments	100
Date	October 12, 2012 2:23 AM UTC (13 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/11cfuf/unfair_but_necessary/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/unfair-but-necessary.1011554 https://theredarchive.com/post/1011554

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