Help me to understand how if a woman gets pregnant, and the male didnt use a condom, it's unfair that he pay child support.

DavidByron · 2012-08-26T15:31:07+00:00

Just watch the GirlWritesWhat video. It's a simple question of basic morals about responsibility. So it's a question about who has the authority to make the most proximal decisions and so on. Your prejudices and expectations get in the way on this stuff an awful lot. To view it dispasionately you need to figure out general questions like, "In general how do we understand what responsibility is and who has it in what situations?" Then apply the principles to the specific conditions of pregnancy.

Here's GWW's take on that:

I think it's actually 2 videos but find the 2nd if you like the first:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRdq2zqGxgY

Manatee7474 · 2012-08-26T15:23:52+00:00

In the western world, Pregnancy is ALWAYS a risk of coitus but carrying a child to term is entirely a woman's prerogative. A man NEVER has a choice to be a father or not after conception - beyond that point, men merely have legally enforced responsibilities, women have state sanctioned choices.

StarscreamerNull · 2012-08-26T15:40:33+00:00

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BeReadyForH · 2012-08-26T16:15:58+00:00

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Equa1 · 2012-08-26T16:35:15+00:00

Let's argue that both the male AND the female in said situation neglect to use any methods of birth control. Equal fault right?

Now, she gets pregnant. Equal fault right?

Scenario 1: He wants the child, she doesnt - so she gets an abortion. This ok because she should not be forced to carry to term if she does not want to.

Scenario 2: She wants the child, he doesnt - so she carrys the child to term.

In both scenarios they share equal responsibility in the pregnancy. However, in both scenarios the man has literally no choice in the outcome. Perhaps you have heard of Financial Abortion? The concept attempts to level the choice playing field. The woman must tell the father she's pregnant and she's keeping it. At this point he could choose (like she has) to either be a father or not. IF he chooses to be a father than he takes the responsibility of child care with equal opportunity of custody. IF he chooses not to be, he surrenders all parental rights to the child - and is not obligated to pay or care for her child.

AnonTheAnonymous · 2012-08-26T17:37:19+00:00

For the same reason a female is allowed to choose not to be responsible for a pregnancy from not using the pill/ a condom and has an abortion, drops baby off in safe haven, or puts it up for adoption, the male should also be allowed to chose not to be a father. It's really not that hard to understand.

twokidsinamansuit · 2012-08-26T15:27:52+00:00

If you look at the comments to a lot of submissions supporting that notion you'll see that most people are logical and agree with you. A lot of the gripes about child support aren't about the act of supporting a child, it's about the way it's carried out and the way people abuse the system. Many women have tried to use child support as a way of revenge against former partners and have even stuck them with supporting children they didn't even father. There's also the fact that men don't usually get a fair chance of being the primary parent and get stuck paying the woman for years without much choice in the matter.

There's also anger in the fact that men have much less reproductive choice than women. In my opinion, this is mostly the fault of biology and since pregnancy takes place completely in the female body, they will always get the last say on whether or not it comes to term.

I find the sperm jacking arguments (women lying about taking birth control, stealing sperm from used condoms) to be more of anomalies than real fears. I think that once you cum inside a woman, you are fully trusting her judgement with your sperm, and the fact of life is that you shouldn't trust everyone. Wrap it up, and flip it inside out before throwing it away (yeah it's gross, but it'll work) if you're still scared.

misandry_doesnt_real · 2012-08-26T15:43:08+00:00

"Either accept the risks of sex, or don't have sex" was a pretty popular argument against abortion way back when. It didn't make sense then, and it doesn't make sense now. Both parties are responsible for birth control, but the birth control a woman has access to doesn't hamper the sensitivity of their genitals and happens to be much more effective than a simple barrier. Women have the advantage in this situation, and when the dynamic of the situation can be changed (via male birth control pill, for example) the first people to step up and demand things stay unfair are feminists.

There are many ways in which a woman has the power to take reproductive control away from a man. Advice such as "avoid the crazies" isn't always possible, and a man who finds himself in the unfortunate position of forced paternity deserves protection.

hardwarequestions · 2012-08-26T16:29:30+00:00

Let's skip your scenario and ask the only important question...why doesn't consistent application of the law matter anymore? Paternity is the only case wherein you must prove your own innocence to avoid the consequence, and often if I refuse to submit my DNA for testing I'll be thrown in jail. Simply put, what the fuck?!

I wouldn't care about the assymetrical options if the law treated me like a human being and I maintained my right to my own body, and want presumed a father or forced to provide my bodily material.

Peter_Principle_ · 2012-08-26T16:34:53+00:00

Trying to force another person to under go a medical procedure on their bodies doesn't seem reasonable either.

How is she forced to? It is her choice. The outcomes of the action my be asymmetric, but it is not like both parties do not know this going into the bedroom. If women are facing abortion or birth (or, more realistically, the morning after pill) then it is their responsibility to make goddamn sure that they don't get pregnant if they don't want to get pregnant.

If I willingly drive on the road with a car that bursts into flames if another car taps the rear bumper, and you accidentally bump me from behind, would it be fair for my relatives to use the courts to force you to pay them 50% of your take home pay for the next 25 years if you were to happen to tap my rear bumper with your car?

2012-08-26T16:58:23+00:00

Sex is necessary for mental health, sorry. Your entire viewpoint is fundamentally flawed.

TracyMorganFreeman · 2012-08-26T17:57:59+00:00

If the male has sex with the girl, pregnancy is ALWAYS a risk, and if he doesn't want a child, it is irresponsible to put the responsibility of birth control on the other party.

That argument can be used to disallow abortion as well.

Trying to force another person to under go a medical procedure on their bodies doesn't seem reasonable either. So wouldn't it be the most logical that, if as a male, wishing for a fair shake you either live celibate, or accept the risks of having sex

That would apply to women as well, so no abortions or adoption. They have to be celibate or accept the risks of sex.

Men do not get a say in whether pregnancy results in child, women do. This is fine if women bear the responsibility for their choice. Now, if we want to say men should be equally responsible, then men and women should have an equal choice in becoming a parent. Since it would be unworkable for men to have a say in abortion, then letting men opt out legally within the window for abortion is functionally the same thing without preventing the woman's choice.

toptrool · 2012-08-26T18:24:04+00:00

the problem isn't that men don't want to accept responsibility, the problem is that they are forced to accept responsibility.

and as many have said before, you can't be for abortion and be for child support.

mayonesa · 2012-08-26T16:25:44+00:00

Trying to force another person to under go a medical procedure on their bodies doesn't seem reasonable either.

Exactly.

If she doesn't want to abort it, she should be the one to pay for it.

Further, as you mention, both parties are culpable. The guilt is not his alone.

Finally, I think I'd like to mention this: if you want equality, and sexual liberation, no one partner needs to bear the burden.

For the greatest freedom of all, the burden is on the woman alone.

If you think that's a bad idea, reverse sexual liberation.

oneiorosgrip · 2012-08-26T17:38:02+00:00

Good grief, I am so sick of hearing this from you whiny, self-centered feminists. Even your wording betrays your manner of thinking. "If the MALE has sex..." like the female wasn't actively involved, but was a passive nonparticipant.

I call bullshit.

Your message stems from the old, outdated gatekeeper-to-consent argument that treats sexual gratification as something women only give, men only receive, and which therefore makes the woman a victim if she gets pregnant, as though she was never involved in the logistics of how it happened. Consensual sex is not something men do to women. It's something people do with each other.

So.

Help me understand why, as a women, you're entitled to higher consideration than a man? Why is it that while you feel justified in leveling blame at him over one choice, you're entitled to get paid for failing at several?
Why is it that if pregnancy occurs, despite having multiple choices (the choice to have sex, the choice to use one or more of the many forms of birth control available to you, the choice - available for months - of whether to give birth or have an abortion, the choice to relinquish custody to the father, a family member, or in an adoption) you feel entitled to blame your situation on the man because of his one choice?
Why is it his fault you chose to have sex?
Why is it his fault you chose to not take precautions?
Why, for that matter, is it his fault you chose to consent to being penetrated without a barrier method of protection?
Why is it his fault you chose not to abort?
Why is it his fault you chose to raise the child yourself?

Trying to force another person to take responsibility for your sexual, medical, and legal choices is dishonest.

If you want to claim equal sexual freedom, grow up and learn to take on all of it, and not just the fun part. If you don't want to raise a baby on your own, take responsibility for yourself and your own actions.

Get the pill. Get a depo shot. Get an IUD. Have your tubes tied. Use spermicide. Use a Today sponge. Use a diaphragm. Insist on condoms if you're going to consent to sex. Better still, use more than one of these... because you can.
If you decide not to take birth control precautions prior to engaging in sexual activity, that's your CHOICE, not something the man did to you. Take responsibility for it, instead of crying victim.

Don't want a baby? Use an abortifacient. There are now several on the market. If the one of the MANY METHODS available to you which you choose to use fails, YOU STILL HAVE CHOICES, where the man does not. Take responsibility and make one, instead of crying victim.

If you decide to refuse those choices, to refrain from using emergency abortifacients like RU-486, that's your CHOICE, not something the man did to you. Even now, you STILL HAVE CHOICES, where the man does not. Take responsibility and look into abortion, instead of crying victim.

If you decide not to have an early term abortion, that's your CHOICE, not something the man did to you. YOU STILL HAVE CHOICES. Take responsibility for it, and look into relinquishing custody, instead of crying victim.

If the father wants custody and you decide to fight him on it, that's your CHOICE, not something the man did to you. Even if the father doesn't want custody, YOU STILL HAVE A CHOICE. Take responsibility for it and look into adoption, instead of crying victim.

If you decide to raise the child instead of opting for adoption, that's your CHOICE, not something the man did to you. Hard choice or not, you had the capability of going either way. The decision to raise the child is one you made, not one you were forced into. Take responsibility for it instead of crying victim.

In other words, if your choice in what to do with your body causes you to get pregnant from a sex act in which you participated, and you decide to keep and raise the baby, that's on you. Your decision, your fault, your responsibility. Carelessly or willfully getting into that situation and then later whining unfair and claiming victim status is dishonest. Arguing that it's the man's fault is even more so.

StarscreamerNull · 2012-08-26T15:21:37+00:00

Women are never forced to have a child if they do not want one. Do to biological reality this privilege cannot be extended to men. However men should not be forced to pay for a child if they do not want one.

High_Value_Target · 2012-08-26T15:59:21+00:00

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Samurai007_ · 2012-08-26T17:30:52+00:00

Well then, let's ban not only abortion but also the choice of giving a child up for adoption. Women, either remain 100% celibate or else risk assuming the responsibility of caring for a child the rest of your life. You get no outs, no options after sex, so you better darn well think about it before having sex.

Would you agree with that idea? Because that is what men face every day right now, and what you don't seem to have a problem with.

rightsbot · 2012-08-26T15:04:18+00:00

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sowhatisit · 2012-08-26T16:19:37+00:00

Am I the only one who hasn't seen the false dichotomy. (for a lack of a better word).

how it can be unfair if a male, chooses not to use a condom and the female gets pregnant

vs (I've switched my order to make the point)

Condoms can fail, people can claim sterility, birth control can fail or not be taken too, and there is no 100% promise. If the male has sex with the girl, pregnancy is ALWAYS a risk, and if he doesn't want a child, it is irresponsible to put the responsibility of birth control on the other party.

The biggest issue I have with it, is that you're equating a condom failing (something that's unlikely) with something like not even using a condom. You're jumping on both sides, in your comments you often state if a man has unprotected sex then they should accept the consequences. Where as in your original post, you're encompassing protected sex too.

Besides that, the issue remains that despite the risks, women are given an unfair advantage.

Before sex: BOTH Men and women can take equal steps to prevent pregnancy.
Day after sex: ONLY women can take steps to prevent pregnancy.
Months after sex: ONLY women can take steps to prevent child-birth.
Days before or after child-birth: ONLY women can take steps to walk away from the child.

Based on the actions of the female for these 9-12 months, the male will be on the hook for another 18 years.

So to switch your statement:

Trying to claim after the deed that the other party was more responsible for the birth control AND that they should suffer financially for 18 years because YOU want a kid...seems...stupid..after all, sex isn't necessary to life.

EDIT: FINALLY:

I don't even think I disagree with your actual question. That child support should be paid if a man has unprotected sex with a female resulting in pregnancy.

But how do you feel about the same situation except where a condom was used but failed to prevent the pregnancy.

Double edit: To take someone who actually said it concisely in their comment.

We just want a similar option for men, to be able to abdicate his responsibilities (and relationship) with the future child, just like women have the opportunity to abdicate their own.

Although I have zero interest in raising a kid for someone who has abdicated his responsibility (as it will ultimately be me through taxes). At the same time, I have zero interest in raising a kid for a single mother with any form of government assistance/subsidy for the single mother.

StarscreamerNull · 2012-08-26T18:20:12+00:00

It's not that the man didn't use a condom; they didn't use a condom. If the woman doesn't want the kid she can use plan B or get an abortion. A man has no option in this, at all. It's not fair.

StarscreamerNull · 2012-08-26T19:30:55+00:00

First of all, and I may be nitpicking here, but calling men "males" while referring to women as "women" sounds dehumanizing. As in, it sounds like whenever you refer to a man as a "male", he's simply an animal with a Y chromosome. Now, it wouldn't be the same if you said "if a male has sex with a female and doesn't use a condom, why is it unfair that he pay child support" or replace both with "man and woman" respectively. I'm sure you never meant it as an insult, given your genuine curiosity and valid question, but it seems to be a common theme that is overlooked and should be remedied. As for your question, it is not the unfairness of not paying child support due to consensual sex and an unforseen child, it's the way the law deals with forcing men to pay it while many women want nothing to do with the father in question and the rarity of allowing the father to be in the child's life.

saoran · 2012-08-26T22:00:55+00:00

after all, sex isn't necessary to life

obvious Feminist troll is obvious. Downvote and move on.

aaarrrggh · 2012-08-26T16:36:07+00:00

Who here is arguing for this?

I think you may be mistaken.

deletedLink · 2012-08-26T17:48:41+00:00

A woman's choice to carry a child to full term and bring it into the world is 100% the woman's choice. Therefore it is 100% the woman's responsibility to deal with that choice.

2012-08-26T18:21:05+00:00

Well, I'll start with a simple question.

Do you think that women have the right to have an abortion?

shady8x · 2012-08-26T18:29:53+00:00

I am not against a man that has begun to raise his child(of his own free will) being required to pay child support to his child.(So long as he is not required to hand over more than 50% of his after tax income to the person that has custody) Also, I want there to be a requirement that child support is spent on children.(Something like what we do with food stamps.)

However:

A woman has the option to not have sex(and society praises women that do not have sex), option of using various long-term hormonal birth control drugs, hormonal pills, or an IUD (some of which now also use hormonal birth control.), the right to demand that a man wear a condom,(see Julian Assange for when a man allegedly doesn't) abortion, abandonment and adoption(look up safe haven laws, mothers can hand their children over for adoption without the fathers consent), putting any mans name on the birth certificate, not telling the father that he is a father, the option to get custody of the child when the father is not her husband(not everywhere, but there are some jurisdictions where in such cases the father has no right to custody), not to mention get custody in the majority of court cases(even when they produced the child by raping the father) etc...

A man has the option to not have sex, wear a condom(which break). Society however loves to virgin shame men. Men that do not have sex are seen as pathetic losers. Men that refuse sex are verbally and sometimes physically harassed/assaulted.

If a man is raped(according to cdc over a million men are raped by women per year, though they aren't judged as legitimate rape victims so they don't refer to men being forced into vaginal sex as rape) their rapist will almost certainly get custody of the rape babies and the male victims will still have to pay child support.

If a man has never met the a mother and she put his name on the birth certificate, it is on him to prove that he is not the father and if he doesn't receive a court summons a default judgement will still be filed against him.

A man has no right to demand that a woman take birth control or to know if she did.

If a child was produced by a woman lying about taking birth control, sperm stealing, or a woman putting holes in the condom, he has no way out.(doesn't matter how often these things happen, there are no legal protections against any of these)

So a man has no rights, not even the right to not have sex.(If that was a right than rape victims wouldn't have to pay child support.) Not even the right to wear a condom. (If that was a right then proving that the woman placed holes in the condom or stole the condom after sex would be a legitimate defense against child support.)

Not to mention that child support payments are often far more than the father can afford. Lots of fathers are put behind bars(which eliminates any chance of them getting a job that can pay for the child support) when they are too poor to pay. Or that some fathers are required to pay more than 100% of their income at the threat of jail/prison(and the forced labor, future unemployment and prison/jail rape that always implies)...

A woman has all the rights, yet a man has all the responsibilities, sometimes, even when he is not the father.

How exactly is the current system NOT unjust?

We need legal paternal surrender/financial abortions.

squeak6666yw · 2012-08-26T18:38:18+00:00

I have read most of original posters comments. And they are either being willfully ignorant to the points people are making or are a troll. I have read people rewrite and reiterate the same points and op either changes the subject(straw man) Or says something snarky.

2012-08-26T19:17:19+00:00

What is unfair about it is forcing him to support a child he may not have wanted. A common argument I often see in support of abortion is that a woman might not ready to become a mother. She might be a in a part of her life where she is too immature to be a good mother, might not have a suitable home environment to raise a child, or she just might not be financially stable enough. This is a perfectly reasonable argument that i agree with, but when it comes to men all this is ignored. Doesn't matter that he might not want a child, doesn't matter that he might be too immature, doesn't matter that he might not have the money.

SDcowboy82 · 2012-08-26T19:33:56+00:00

What it boils down to is equality. Right now, women have a few legal pathways to avoid motherhood after pregnancy. She can get an abortion. She can give the baby up for adoption. She can even take the morning after pill (though this more prevents pregnancy than terminates it). Women have these rights because it's their body, it's their future, it's their life. However, men have no (that's right, no) rights after sex. This applies even if the men have been tricked (for instance if the woman is lying about being on the pill). Men should be able to forgo their paternal "responsibility" just as women can forgo their maternal "responsibility." It isn't right for the state to force him into servitude for the next 18 years of his life. It is, after all, his future, not hers.

Here's another thing to consider. Your question "If a woman gets pregnant, ... [why shouldn't] he pay child support" doesn't consider the fact that the man doesn't create a child legally. His actions coupled with hers has led to the creation of a fetus, not a child. It is the mother's decision whether or not to keep the fetus that leads it to becoming a child. He has no say in the matter at this point, yet he must bear a the brunt of the consequences for her decision (supporting the child financially and seeing the child at the mother's discretion).

One final thing to consider. If a woman rapes a young teenage boy (think teacher and student), and she gets pregnant, he is still forced to pay child support. This in my mind is akin to forcing women to keep their child even in cases of rape.

Lasagna13 · 2012-08-26T19:34:18+00:00

A woman has the right to ask her partner to use a condom. If her partner refuses the woman has the right to withhold sex. Should he then force himself upon her that would be rape. Sex is a group activity it is always a good idea to get a group consensus before engaging in activity.

Lawtonfogle · 2012-08-26T20:21:21+00:00

A basic question here is who has a duty to take care of the child. Duty is a nasty word in our world, but it is how we have to think about it.

Perhaps the people involved in making the decision to have the child. In this case, if the father was very important in the mother having the child (aka, promising to be there and support her), and he leaves, he was still involved and should have to pay. But then, if he was clear from the get go he did not want a child, he is not responsible.

So maybe you want to pick another way to do it. What about the people who contribute the genetic material must be responsible? Well, this has two problems. First, sperm donors (and even egg donors if/when that is/becomes a thing) would be responsible, not the individuals acting as the parent. Also, even giving the child up for adoption, you would still be responsible for providing for it (aka, paying part of the bills involved in adoption and the paperwork and manpower that goes with it).

Or maybe, a society should be responsible for all its children. This is so not even orphans are without help. In this case, all members of the society with the ability to do so help pay to ensure a basic standard of living for all children. I think this is the best plan of them all, and should replace child support. There is a few problems with this (just as there are with others), but I think they can be worked out if people just applied their minds to it.

ghebert001 · 2012-08-27T02:29:28+00:00

It's just as unfair as the woman having 100% control over whether or not he becomes a father. Women have options when they're not ready for parenthood, men have none.

nwz123 · 2012-08-27T08:12:04+00:00

1)The woman had the right to abort and she didn't. She had a choice and she exercised it. 100% of the choosing power requires 100% of the responsibility: she can choose to be a parent, so why can't he?

This is why it isn't unfair. There are lots of women that abort babies because they feel that their respective 'fathers-to-be' won't hack it when it comes to doing the job properly.

2) Choosing to have sex is not the same as choosing to become a parent. See point one for evidence of this.

3) Most of the arguments about why men ought not to have a choice to become a parent mirror the arguments used by pro-life people to try and take away a woman's right to choose.

2012-08-26T17:25:18+00:00

The main reason your argument is invalid is because when genders are reversed, all you've done is given the verbatim pro-life stance as to why abortion should be illegal.

men literally have no "plan B." On her whim, your next 18 years can be severely altered.

JockeVXO · 2012-08-26T18:09:26+00:00

OP, help me understand how if a woman gets pregnant, and she didn't use a condom or BC, it's unfair that she cannot abort, or give the child up for adoption or legal abandonment (Safe Haven).

If she doesn't want a child she shouldn't have had unprotected sex and it's irresponsible to terminate a foetus when pregnancy is ALWAYS a risk. /s

Does this make sense to you? Consenting to sex is not consenting to parenthood, whether you're male or female.

2012-08-27T05:59:23+00:00

Her body, her choice, her responsibility. She can walk away from parenthood at any time before birth and even afterwards, why can't I?

its-me-again · 2012-08-26T16:46:42+00:00

The best solution would be one that promotes responsibility onto both partners to ensure there is no incentive to be dishonest about conception. I do not believe any male or female should enter a sexual relationship without accepting some risk of conception. Every adult knows that when sperm and eggs get close enough to touch, conception will occur. Giving a pro-life women a few hundered dollars to pay for half an a abortion is in no way sharing the risk equally as it does not take into account the physical and emotional price she will pay. Really, no matter what her personal views are on abortion, there is nothing a man can do to share equally in the experience and the sometimes life-long effects. Whereas after birth, the financial, physical and emotional aspects of parenthood can (and should) be shared equally.

2012-08-26T15:11:45+00:00

[permanently deleted]

Title	Help me to understand how if a woman gets pregnant, and the male didnt use a condom, it's unfair that he pay child support.
Author	StarscreamerNull
Upvotes	6
Comments	156
Date	August 26, 2012 3:03 PM UTC (13 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/yureh/help_me_to_understand_how_if_a_woman_gets/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/help-me-to-understand-how-if-a-woman-gets-pregnant.1014974 https://theredarchive.com/post/1014974

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