A husband who shoulders an emotional burden is guilty either of "toxic masculinity" or creating "emotional labor" for his wife. Being a man makes him guilty of committing some kind of "crime against women" no matter what he does.

feltentragus · 2020-05-20T11:47:00+00:00

For me, the true demonstration of "toxic masculinity" was the way that, a man saying he suffered distress was immediately defined as creating a problem for someone else.

Victim blaming, IOW.

I haven't heard about "emotional labor" before, and my immediate response is that women should grow up. Frankly, we men have had enough of women whining, complaining and blaming men.

You've been once too often to that well, sisters.

As far as the "correct" solution to the dilemma: the man has a choice, to ask for support, or not. Both courses of action have associated costs. It is for him to decide which cost he wants to pay. Life's like that. Nobody has the "right" to a zero-cost solution.

The same should be true for the woman: to choose to give comfort, or not. Having made her choice she should then uncomplainingly pay the cost of that choice. This is what adults do.

Camouflaging her whining and elaborating it into a guilt-structure to relieve her of future burden by shaming men into silence is both childish and selfish.

And typical of feminism.

Jakeybaby125 · 2020-05-20T09:37:22+00:00

It's not toxic masculinity, it's toxic femininity that's stopping him. Men are generally more sympathetic to other mens strifes than women are simply because women can't understand men but men can understand men.

2020-05-20T13:17:03+00:00

Double Binds are frequent in everything from families to political movements to religion: the point it to create an enviorment you can always justify punishment over those subject to your rules impossible: Heads I win, tails your lose.

Cyb3rd31ic_Citiz3n · 2020-05-20T09:55:23+00:00

It is a Catch-22 situation, depending on whom you ask. But lables aside I hope he did speak up to his family. He needs an out let and his wife needs to learn to listen as much as he does to speak.

LGSpolAnon · 2020-05-20T15:09:14+00:00

There is an issue here with the concept of emotional labor. It's originally a left-wing concept describing affective labor, referring to the professional expectation of stoicism at most workplaces and/or having to act cheery and happy at a public-facing job when you're dying inside, etc. We all have experienced this.

Feminists reappropriated this to mean the burden of caring. As in, it's not enough to do housework when you're told, it's a burden to be responsible for it and the only one who cares whether it gets done. As a working single dad, I see what they're talking about. I have a teenager. It's hard to have a second person who is perfectly capable of helping around the house, but doesn't give a damn and won't lift a finger until I tell him to.

So in this scenario, it's the man who feels that he needs to do the emotional labor. He feels like he needs to bear the burden of responsibility and not share it with anyone else. My question is, why? He may have perfectly good reasons. Maybe the women in his life are less emotionally mature than he is. That's not rare, there are immature and emotionally retarded people of all genders. Maybe he knows a secret about the dog that would cause pain for one of his family members. We don't know.

The question is, why is he choosing to be stoic? If he's choosing it because he's a man and that's what he's supposed to do, then yes, he's performing unnecessary emotional labor and worse, depriving those around him of catharsis and connection and the ability to hold some of the responsibility for dealing with traumatic events. That would be a good example of "toxic masculinity," (which, by the way is a term that comes from the men's movement in the 1970s and has since been abused by feminists.) It's a performance of gender that is deleterious to the man's mental or physical health.

The problem with "toxic masculinity" is that it is grounded in the right-wing myth of male hyperagency. It doesn't, and indeed can't, examine the way that women perpetuate the empathy gap and help create society's general lack of compassion for men. Thus, the fundamental attribution of error when a man exhibits behaviors deemed "toxic masculine" - we hold the man personally responsible, instead of seeking to understand the whole, complex individual and his interaction with his social environment. The feminist insistence on holding men hyperresponsible for their mythical hyperagency is one of the primary mechanisms by which patriarchy itself is continually reified and renewed.

5th_Law_of_Robotics · 2020-05-20T11:48:18+00:00

Yep. Very much so. There is no right answer for men other than to chop your balls off and become trans. Otherwise everything you do is scrutinized by people who start with the conclusion that you're in the wrong.

Sonic-Oj · 2020-05-20T12:11:44+00:00

I define toxic masculinity as toxic behaviors expected of men.

Men are expected to shoulder their pain and not express their emotions (unless its anger). This is toxic to men's well being. I'm pretty sure we can all agree with that.

So yeah, I would argue that the men suffers from toxic masculinity.

If feminists argue that this creates "emotional labor" for the life, I disagree. If anything, I think the man is the one engaging in emotional labor (suppressing his emotions) to hold the family together.

darksteel1335 · 2020-05-20T12:21:23+00:00

I’m probably the last person to be mentioning toxic masculinity. I hate that feminist oppressive patriarchy and toxic masculinity bullshit.

However, keeping emotions bottled up inside is toxic masculinity. It’s a toxic form of masculine behaviour that doesn’t help us. We should be feeling more free to express our emotions.

I don’t agree that sharing that information with his wife would be “emotional labour” though. A marriage is a partnership and they ought to share things with each other that they need support with.

Melthengylf · 2020-05-20T17:23:53+00:00

This is why I will never marry a woman with whom I cannot trust her to be vulnerable, spceially around things like our dog dying.

PrincessofPatriarchy · 2020-05-20T10:44:29+00:00

Admittedly I have not listened to Reddit feminists discuss emotional labor in any depth but from other feminists that I have heard discuss the topic I don't think that is what would happen.

Some feminists do complain about emotional labor when it comes to regulating men's emotions for them. Though a man maturely expressing his feelings and concerns is not the problem, rather they are criticizing how some men's inability to communicate their feelings creates more work. So, a man might lash out with disproportionate amounts of anger to seemingly small situations because he does not have any idea how to express himself calmly. The end result is that women (his wife usually) then have to deal with his anger and help him calm down. Now things that would normally take a small amount of time to resolve instead turn into constant blow-ups that she has to navigate.

Or, another man may stonewall or become despondent for periods of time if he is upset. So, now this creates the task of having to coax out of him what is wrong and what's bothering him as he plays the silent treatment.

Emotional labor usually refers to how a man's inability to communicate his feelings results in greater difficulties in communication down the line, that may fall disproportionately on the shoulders of women because they are seen as more "nurturing".

Regardless, I don't think it matters. In healthy relationships, partners support one another and should feel safe opening up. A man should be able to talk to his wife about something that is bothering him just as much as the other way around, regardless of who feminists on the internet have to say about it.

BlackVelvet299792 · 2020-05-20T12:37:49+00:00

I think in this context toxic masculinity is not something hes guilty of at all but rather a victim of as without the societal view of men having to keep their negative feelings or emotions bottled up then it would be no issue in this situation he would feel comfortable sharing how he felt

Xemnas81 · 2020-05-22T11:57:12+00:00

Emotional labour in the case of a dog dying? Probably not. At least for the day of the funeral and a little while after. This is one of those areas where they'd have sympathy.

In many other scenarios compassion dries up quickly.

General redpill rule is this:

Upset over situation you have no control over (e.g. somebody dying): Unrestrained compassion, may even find it attractive if you lead despite that, would only get pissed off
Upset over situation you have control over: Threshold varies between women, usually you get one complaint, second complaint you need a plan to solve it, and after the third they don't want to hear about it UNLESS some third party stress changes the issue.
Just generally venting about insecurities and fear of abandonment: Low to zero tolerance, except with controlling women

2020-07-04T19:38:55+00:00

emotional labour

If it’s a chore to listen to your partner because you think they’re annoying, you never should have been together in the first place.

They sound like middle aged boomer comics going on about their “dang nagging wives.”

a-man-from-earth · 2020-09-14T06:27:33+00:00

I don't know what got into someone to go back three months and find a post that is objectionable to them. But I don't see how this is promoting hate.

SnowAssMan · 2020-05-20T12:01:17+00:00

Of course straight away people came in and said that this was a perfect example of "toxic masculinity"

I went to the thread & only one person mentioned 'toxic masculinity'. All the comments I saw were sympathetic with the man, including the commenter that mentioned 'toxic masculinity'. So quit crying wolf.

'Toxic masculinity' describes the mechanism responsible for men not being able to share their feelings. Undermining 'toxic masculinity' is counter-productive to men's issues.

salbris · 2020-05-20T15:13:32+00:00

Imho, you're statement about emotional labour is incorrect. That's not to say that some people might mislabel it that way but anyone that calls listening to your spouse when they need emotional support "emotional labour" must certainly be biased or a sociopath.

Let's not play their game and pretend like women are all sociopaths. They are affected by the societal norms as us. If they don't see it then try to have an earnest but non-confrontational conversion about it.

Onion_Guy · 2020-05-20T17:55:37+00:00

This sub is very poorly read. Good lord. That’s not how toxic masculinity works. Also, anything you ask for emotional support is creating emotional labor. That’s how it works. It’s good. People support each other by doing the labor of being present and listening or helping. If asking for help from your SPOUSE is too much emotional labor for them, you probably shouldn’t have gotten married since you can’t handle the easiest of emotional transactions or have the conversation “hey, do you have the emotional energy to help me with something I’ve been dealing with?” beforehand

Comments