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August 18, 2014

For the next few weeks, we're going to be starting mega-threads each week focusing on a particular subject. This week, we're discussing Long Term Relationships. The dos and don'ts, theories, and strategy.

Some points I would like to focus on:

  • Are LTRs feasible/beneficial in today's climate?
  • What are some ways LTR game differs from pickup and plate spinning?
  • Handling relationship shit tests
  • Red flags, signs that it's time to move on
  • Yellow flags, things to look out for
  • Success/failure stories

Without further ado, I open the thread for input. Anybody with experience, insight, or theories - chime in. Anybody with a particular question is also welcome.

Post Information
Title LTR Theory & Tips MEGATHREAD
Author redpillschool
Upvotes 193
Comments 139
Date 18 August 2014 03:39 PM UTC (6 years ago)
Subreddit TheRedPill
Original Link
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Red Pill terms found in post:
long term relationshipplateshit testgamethe red pill

[–]tyranus8973 points74 points  (25 children) | Copy

One of the major differences between LTRs and pickups/plates is the introduction of what Athol Kay calls "beta qualities". I know MMSL has taken a lot of flak from TRP community lately, but we can all agree that the book was great.

AFBB is a huge part of TRP, and we see it in action all the time. However, remember that there are two sides of that coin. If you are too AF, then she'll go somewhere else to find her BB. Your alpha qualities must be tempered with "beta qualities" in order to make her feel secure.

Kay advocates for "beta qualities" such as being able to maintain the home (or 'nest' for the evolutionary psychology standpoint), being able to cook, being trustworthy and affectionate. These have nothing to do with spinning plates. Plates, if they're on the same commitment level and understanding that you are, don't care about these things. But an LTR will leave you if she doesn't see that you can provide some stability.

In short, for an LTR, you want to be both the Alpha Fucks and the Beta Bucks. Make it so that she doesn't have to go somewhere else to get either of those.

[–]1 TRP SupporterFred_Flintstone18 points19 points  (2 children) | Copy

When at beginning of relationships you want to be Alpha/Alpha/Beta.

As the relationship develops and more commitment needs to be shown or else the girl gets very stressed and demands more or else she leaves you want to be Alpha/Beta/Beta.

(This is from Roissy (heartiste)).

When picking up 20 year old girls in a club you want to be Alpha/Alpha/Alpha.

Chatting up 24 year olds in a bar you want to be Alpha/Alpha/Beta.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy

And trying to settle into a LTR with a 31yo?


[–]tyranus899 points10 points  (0 children) | Copy

And trying to settle into a LTR with a 31yo?

Hopefully, if you're in the position to be settling into an LTR, the number won't be that high.

[–]1independentmale23 points24 points  (5 children) | Copy

This is all true, but I'd like to add:

This is a delicate balancing act. There are going to be times when you're forced to come down on one side of alpha/beta. I highly recommend falling on that alpha side most of the time. The right balance will differ from relationship to relationship, but in general you should always be more alpha than beta.

I run my split about 80-90% on the alpha side. That's a bit high and I don't think my LTR is going to last forever in large part because of it. However, I'm personally quite a bit happier and absolutely ok if it doesn't work out.

Any time you give her a little beta, she's going to latch on and extract it for all it's worth. She will pull you further into beta territory each time. That's her nature: She wants to mould you into her perfect idea of what she thinks she wants in a man. The problem is she doesn't really know what she wants. If you acquiesce too often, she'll lose respect for you and you'll lose respect for yourself. Next thing you know you're both miserable and she's looking to branch swing.

Give her a little beta from time to time, but do it on your terms. Never beta out of a shit test and don't let her gain the upper hand in the relationship. Always be willing to walk away.

[–][deleted] 39 points40 points  (2 children) | Copy

This old rage comic captures it perfectly.

[–]theendresult17 points8 points  (0 children) | Copy

The best part about this comic is how her hair gets shorter each panel.

[–]tyranus8910 points11 points  (0 children) | Copy

Yeah, it's about having the beta qualities in the right context. Shit tests are never one of them. Money is one of them (financial stability). Et cetera.

[–]1KyfhoMyoba3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy

Agree 1000%. I have observed IRL and on this sub and in other places that it is much easier, i.e., get good results - to add some beta to an alpha frame than add some alpha to a beta frame. It might be helpful to think about it from a marketing standpoint. What is your 'position' in her mind? (From the book, 'Positioning; the Battle for your Mind," by Reis and Trout) It's better to start as alpha because the alpha is the rarest and most difficult to attain.

[–]Endorsed ContributorRedPillDad23 points24 points  (4 children) | Copy

Women seek opposing energies from a man. She wants comfort and security. Your average beta chump can consistently deliver that calming energy. But she gets bored of his predictability. She wants stimulation, adventure and fun. This is where beta boy fails badly because he can't step off the consistency path.

Note: the point isn't to give a women exactly what she seeks. It's to give her pressure and relief, attraction and rejection, expected and unexpected... Mix it up.

[–]CloakedOrchid6 points7 points  (3 children) | Copy

I've repeatedly tried to find this video again, but have had no luck. It was a short clip of some guy (I think a comedian) revealing the hypocrisy in women's thinking, with hilarious one-liner after hilarious one-liner of stuff like, "They want a man who's consistent, but who will surprise them. They want a man who's reliable, but spontaneous."

[–] points points | Copy

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[–]CloakedOrchid2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

Yes, exactly! Thanks for the link.

[–]Endorsed ContributorBluepillProfessor5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy

This is a transcript of his lesson.

What do women want? Guys keep asking women keep us guessing, that’s why when a guy tries to figure out what a woman wants he often looks like a cat chasing a laser pointer. Confused, disoriented but strangely the thing is women want with that strange hopeful look on his face. .

So the thing is women seem to want contradictory things in a man. Women want a man who is ambitious, an achiever whose successful both professionally and financially whose not materialistic. Woman want a man who is solid steady consistent and reliable who is fun unpredictable and spontaneous. Woman want a strong willed decisive man who takes a stand and doesn’t waiver as long as he’s flexible open minded and can admit when he’s wrong.

Women want a lot. They want a realist whose romantic, a guy who is serious but playfull, whose confident but humble and horny but faithful. Women want a man who is career driven but family oriented. Women want a man who is smart but not nerdy, caring but not needy, affectionate but not clingy, protective but not possessive, emotional but not neurotic, funny but not a clown, dominant but not domineering, and in control but not controlling. No problem. Good to know. So take notes guys and remember all we got to be is strong but sensitive, tough but tender, masculine but gentle, and manly but vulnerable.

Because apparently what a woman wants is a gay football coach.

[–]EmbeddedAssets13 points14 points  (2 children) | Copy

We should have a new saying for LTRs: alpha fucks and alpha bucks. This is the true ideal for women but they often have to "settle" for alpha fucks and beta bucks.

[–]Senior ContributorSkorchZang3 points4 points  (1 child) | Copy

Got my doubts about that pleasantly idealistic picture you painted. In my experience, as soon as you are a woman's de facto provider, no matter how alpha you act she rapidly begins to lose sexual interest. And she can't do anything about that, either.

Almost as if, you go provider, and she feels she won this particular game. So time for her to seek the bigger, bolder challenges.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

The key is alpha bux. But it's more than the paycheck. It's the providence you let her seek comfort in -- whether it be emotional or material. Make her work for the comfort you're able to provide -- which should be penultimate -- instead of showering it upon her at every opportunity.

[–]1RBuddDwyer6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy

Athol (and others on the MMSL forums) used to always talk about doing, "Beta from an Alpha Frame" as the best approach for this. I take that to mean no covert contracts, and doing it because you want to, not because she is nagging you to do it. I am trying to find a link to more discussion about it. I think he also called it, "good beta."

Here is a link to his discussion of it. There are several related posts at the bottom of the post, just before the comments.

Reminds me of the joke, "I am going to cuddle the fuck out of you..."

[–]Endorsed ContributorBluepillProfessor3 points4 points  (1 child) | Copy

I am one of those flak giving dudes about MMSL but I agree completely. The books are golden and the way it is supposed to be done. Any married guy needs to read them, twice. Highlight the second time and take notes.

I disagree on the general formulations about Alpha and Beta tasks. Whether something is "Alpha" or "Beta" is almost completely socially determined primarily by how you frame the task.

Cooking for the family: Alpha.

Shopping- especially while practicing cold PUA approaches on randoms in the store: Alpha.

Holding her in your arms and looking tenderly in her eyes while she vents about her day: Alpha (so long as your sperm is leaking- or about to be leaking- out of her body).

Picking up the house and doing the dishes/laundry/kids homework because your wife works hard and the only thing she needs to worry about when she gets home is how to please your cock: Alpha.

[–]tyranus892 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

You're right and you're wrong, but mostly you're right. This is because it's an issue of semantics.

Kay uses alpha/beta differently then we generally do. So you're right in that those tasks are alpha when you frame them a certain way. How he uses the terms, though, they can't be re-framed. Again, it's semantics -- not saying that the tasks themselves can't be reframed, rather his language serves another purpose (to highlight a dichotomy of lifestyle acts, which can then be analyzed and used to benefit an LTR).

tl;dr - you're absolutely right, and this is what Kay's actually getting at.

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[–]tyranus892 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy

LTR - Long Term Relationship AFBB - Alpha Fucks Beta Bucks

[–]1KyfhoMyoba2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

MMSL - Married Man Sex Life

[–]ruorgimorphu0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Too many acronyms; didn't understand

[–]∞ Mod | RP Vanguardbsutansalt37 points38 points  (1 child) | Copy

Don't say you're sorry, say thank you for her being awesome for being cool with whatever mistake you made or fucked up.

You avoid saying sorry and you qualify her good behaviors of putting up with your mistakes.

[–]throw8way0-3 points-2 points  (0 children) | Copy

bsutansalt, this is throw8way0. Enjoy the orangered. It makes a nice change to the red.

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[–]Endorsed ContributorBluepillProfessor3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy

My theory is that BC makes chicks seek betas

Several papers confirm this theory. Men Betafy during marriage. Then they have a baby and wifey goes off BC. Now they want Alpha and their Beta Hubby doesn't have it any more.

Betafication + BC + Baby + yougogirrrrrrl! = 50% divorce rate.

[–]1KyfhoMyoba4 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy

Best. Comment. Ever.

Should be side-barred for description of Captain/XO.

Would love to see some posts from you explaining more of your dynamic.

[–][deleted] 1 points1 points | Copy

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[–]1wall-of-meth26 points27 points  (0 children) | Copy

The beta side or beta qualities that you definitely need to run a long term relationship are very important. I'll follow up with some bullet points.

You need to use these qualities to make her see, you are not only dominating, you are also caring/comforting. This is where plate theory differs: You don't listen to their shit, you have a nice time, fuck, and let them complain somewhere else.

  • However, listening to your SO does by far not mean "Hey, she is telling me a problem, I should help solving this.". This is man-logic, and she is female. It doesn't work that way.

She just wants to hear herself and re-experience the emotions of her story she is telling. The only thing you should do is shut up, let her talk and bring in your own very short emotional evaluation. She is telling you how a friend of her is bitchy and does tons of drugs? Don't tell her to confront or talk about it. She does not want a solution for that problem. The only thing she wants to hear is "That sucks./ Sounds harsh.". Don't make her problem yours. If she wants actual advice she will ask for it.

Often a silent hug or kiss is a good option, too. But remember, don't fall into patterns. Otherwise she might get the hang of it. "Hmm, if I complain, I get kisses and hugs.". Don't go down that road.

  • Say No often. It is part of the big shit test to turn you into her BB. Women ask you to do things and lose respect for you when you do those things.

Also, contradict things she says rather than blindly agreeing. It makes her question her train of thought, because you don't approve it. It makes you step up your wit and game to counter successfully.

  • Be aware of the fact, that she will never stop to shit test you. Use every technique to diffuse those tests and vary them. Don't fall into patterns just because you now are somewhat settled. One wrong step and be ready for a little while of drama and shit tests. And this is not what an LTR consists of.

  • Do not let her doubt your dominance. You make the plans, you have the last word, you give approval and disapproval. Keep in mind, everything you do must be done with 100% confidence and not the littlest spark of doubt. Women smell a lack of confidence like sulfur and as you know, it will not turn out good for you.

  • Even though it is labelled a "Beta quality" none of these is actually beta. Beta is a term to describe a non-selfbeneficial motive of actions. Selfbeneficial motive of actions does not mean "Only do things for yourself", it does mean "Only do things because you want them yourself". You don't listen to your LTR, because its comforting for her. You listen to her, because you want a successful LTR with that girl and it contributes to this. In a nutshell: Don't do things for her. Do things with her for you.

These are my main concerns for now.

EDITed some words for clarification.

[–]MSoftHarem33 points34 points  (7 children) | Copy

Remember, she falls in love with the man you are when she falls in love with you. If you become too complacent, fail shit tests, and do not maintain your value it will cause her hypergamy to flare up and she'll begin to look at other options. This is normal, and natural for women. Do not hold it against them. Simply do your job as the leader of the relationship where ONE HUNDRED PERCENT of the responsibility falls squarely on your shoulders because all of her agency has been given to you. You better have your shit together to keep the relationship on track and maintain two way trust. That being said, relationships are not for everyone, but they do have a place for some RP men, and they certainly have a place in TRP. Regardless, keep the state out of your bedroom and never sign a marriage license. A good compromise is to have the ceremony and throw a party if it ever gets that serious.

[–]TRP Vanguard: "Dark Triad Expert"IllimitableMan20 points21 points  (6 children) | Copy

ONE HUNDRED PERCENT of the responsibility falls squarely on your shoulders

I respectfully disagree with this and stated as much in my newest piece. There's one reason for it: women are too easily influenced and emotionally manipulated which makes their agency fickle at best. Sure you can have one hundred percent of the responsibility within the moment multiple times, but when other players are in the equation or you're simply absent she gives her agency to whoever the most powerful person in that environment is. You cannot always be there physically to keep her in line. As they say "whilst the cats away, the mice will play."

If logistics are right and a man with enough game is seducing her, she will fall out of line/cheat or whatever. I'm not willing to assume agency in such a situation and neither should other men. That's why this hyperagent approach to women doesn't bode well with me. I believe in being the leader and taking the majority of the flak, but if it's something that occurs independent of my presence, she's on vacation, out with her friends or some other bullshit, I'm not going to blame myself for that. I'm not going to sit there thinking "oh I shouldn't have let her go out with her friends, it's my fault" or "oh I shouldn't have let her go on vaction without me, so the fact she gangbanged some africans is my fault." As fickle as it is, women have agency and when they yield it to the wrong person I'm going to be holding them fully accountable for their shitty decisions. I mean fuck, we give teenagers more agency and expectation than this and she's supposed to be the most responsible teenager in the house, not a fucking toddler. There's no pussy pass with me.

[–]MSoftHarem2 points3 points  (5 children) | Copy

We'll have to agree to disagree. If she strays it is a combination of lack of attraction, and poor mate selection. Both of which are the man's full responsibility. Women are objects in relationships, how can you expect an object to be responsible? You are the agent, act accordingly. Regardless, your mission is always your #1 priority so you just cut your losses and move on.

[–]TRP Vanguard: "Dark Triad Expert"IllimitableMan13 points14 points  (4 children) | Copy

Definitely agree to disagree. Women are complicit yes, but I wouldn't go so far to say they're incapable of decision making (like a non-sentient object is), they're just extremely poor at it. Hyperagency is simply extracting variables until you can spin her mistake/error into being symptomatic of something you did. To actualise hyperagency you have to be perfect. Not even one mistake. That's not realistic. Men no matter how masculine will always make mistakes.

Regardless, your mission is always your #1 priority so you just cut your losses and move on.

Totally agree.

[–]magicalbird8 points9 points  (0 children) | Copy

You and Softharem are both right. Some women will stay with you as long as you keep your frame one hundred percent of the time. Other women will go with whomever has the strongest frame in the moment and therefore will eventually cheat.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy

your mission is always your #1 priority so you just cut your losses and move on.

This. and keeping the beta tendancies from entering the picture.

[–]MSoftHarem1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

You want a healthy amount of positive Beta traits when in a relationship.

[–]NikolaTeslaMGTOW0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

It seems like, women can't be completely controlled, but there is a lot we can do to control them, but don't focus on 100% control b/c its not possible.

How do you handle vacation/going out? To me it seems like a solo vacation is a big red flag (aka not acceptable), but going out is fine as long as you aren't being beta.

It seems like being more alpha and IDGAF attitude with options are more important than trying to directly control which doesn't work, basically skew risk reward for her to not be worth it to cheat.

Which basically means, LTR have inherent risk even with perfect game, so why do it? Kids maybe? Iono good food for thought.

[–][deleted] 7 points7 points | Copy

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[–]BetterToBeFeared12 points13 points  (5 children) | Copy

The biggest thing I have seen destroy my friends in an LTR and probably the #1 thing that most guys in an LTR are afraid of is getting cheated on. Getting cheated on simultaneously crushes their ego, enduces rage and turns them into a irrational mess. I have seen numerous friends cheated on in their LTRs, not a huge sample size, but enough to count on at least two hands. Here are my observations on a few of the relationships and my profiles of the cheating whore before I knew they were cheats.

Gentleman, I present to you my wall of shame:

Whore #1: Blond party girl that went to a giant state school in the US. Would constantly talk about how she would fuck lots of guys in college. Had a rich daddy that was never home and just sent her money for clothers, cars, etc. Came on to me in front of him on one occasion and walked around the house naked while I was in it.

Relationship #1: Guy was pure beta. Girl could do no wrong and would never get called out on anything. He provided her with breakfast lunch and dinner and would even go out alone to pick up the takeout and bring it back to her. Guy would say "I'm sorry baby" after anything like it was his fault - if the weather was bad he would apologize profusely. Girl disappeared for a weekend to go get fucked by another guy.

Whore #2: Loved going out to bars and clubs. If her boyfriend couldn't go she would go out with her friends or coworkers anyways. At the bars and clubs she would actively flirt and touch other guys even if her BF was there. She would blow up on her boyfriend over the smallest things and say things like "just stand in the corner and drink so you don't embarrass me"

Relationship #2: Guy would take her shit and just laugh it off. He wasn't a complete pushover but he wouldn't put his foot down, call her out, or command respect either. He was just laugh it off like she was being cute. He had a good amount of alpha qualities (big guy, football player, successful, etc.) but let her run rampant. She brought a coworker home one day while he was in the house and hooked up with him in the basement.

Whore #3: Definition of a crazy girl. Not in the angry psycho way but in the manic when-I-look-in-her-eyes-I-see-pure-chaos-and-I-don't-know-what-she-is-going-to-do-next type of way. She might get up and dance on the bar on a whim or she might sit quietly staring into space. In one moment she will be cussing her boyfriend out and in the next she's telling him how much she loves him. Past relationship was physically abusive on both sides.

Relationship #3: Guy was pretty alpha so I can't dock him any points there, but I dock him serious points for putting up with crazy. This girl might not have even been plate material due to to extreme never-stick-your-dick-in-this vibes she gave off. She cheated on him with her abusive ex, got pregnant, and almost tried to pin the baby on him.

My conclusion? There are two things you need to prevent cheating in an LTR:

  1. You need to screen your girls ahead of time with EXTREME standards. ANY red flag and its not worth it. I don't care if she hates her family/father but has moved on and is her own independent person now. I don't care if she was wild in college but is now a sweet lady with her shit together. I don't care if she has a crazy side to her but is otherwise a good girl. Everything I listed above is plate material NOT LTR material. You want to invest a ton of time, money and dignity into a girl with any of these qualities? Would you invest that much time, money and dignity on a risky bet? If so I have some mortgage backed securities and penny stocks to sell you.

  2. You must hold strong with alpha qualities throughout the LTR. The #1 reason I blame my friends for getting cheated on is their poor screening methods, just LTRing the first hot girl that comes along. The #2 reason is they acted too beta. Only on one occurrence did a guy act too alpha and get cheated on (but he was being dumb, not calling her for a week at a time.) The beta will most likely come as the girl pushes you into the LTR so just worry about the alpha.

[–]NikolaTeslaMGTOW1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy

Not in the angry psycho way but in the manic when-I-look-in-her-eyes-I-see-pure-chaos-and-I-don't-know-what-she-is-going-to-do-next type of way.


Is that referencing something... man that is such an accurate analysis of some people...

Great post, useful risk management examples of how not to behave.

Interesting about the not calling for a week... I don't think that is too long but maybe for a woman it is. I think there must have been something else major going on for that to happen, not just "he didn't call me for a week".

[–]BetterToBeFeared0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

Is that referencing something... man that is such an accurate analysis of some people..

Hah naw just the words that came to me when I thought about that woman's crazy eyes.

The calling for a week thing was multiple instances of not calling her a week at a time. In an LTR you're signing up for at least some communication outside texting once a week and he avoided that several times.

[–]NikolaTeslaMGTOW0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Ok that makes a lot more sense, not calling for 1 week seems like too short of a time, if its repeat behavior that makes a lot of sense.

[–]HocusDaber0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

Please explain Relationship #2 with more Details and examples. What do you mean with: he didnt put his foot down and let her run rampant.

Do you also think that it was wrong, that he would laugh her off? Is this the same like laughing, beeing cool when a girl is angry at you and showing that she is pointless silly angry with you?

thanks in advance

[–]BetterToBeFeared2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

There were no boundaries in what she could and couldn't do. For example, putting her arms around a stranger at a bar was OK. If she let a stranger grab her ass it was OK. Supposedly she disappeared for a weekend without telling him once as well.

The laughing was the same way a bad parent would laugh at a child for being "cute" when the child was exhibiting bad behavior. She would yell at him in public and laugh then do what he was told rather than laughing cooly and ignoring.

[–][deleted] 12 points13 points  (1 child) | Copy

If you've never spun plates, you're not ready for a relationship. Plates will relieve you of your illusions about how women work, teach you how to maintain your frame and avoid oneitis, and most importantly, make you "real" when you do things like dread game or be willing to walk.

Her behavior will be 10x better and she will appreciate the relationship much more if she feels that you were fucking 2-3 different women, and now you're giving her a chance at monopolizing your sexual attention, but if she fails, you have no problems going back to your former situation. You can fake that to a degree, but at some point, her perception and instinct for this sort of thing are actually pretty strong.

I would say the optimal time to think about relationships is only after you've started to reach a solid SMV and more importantly, only after you have a lot of plate experience. Otherwise you have no way of objectively evaluating your woman's quality. Every single guy who learns pickup for instance and starts to get results and LTR's the first girl he finds winds up 1 year later in a WORSE position than he was before. He may have had the SMV to get the relationship, but he didn't have the experience to evaluate his woman. His woman had artificially pumped value to him because she symbolized his "victory over his beta self" - he viewed her through ego-goggles.

It is only when you stop viewing your GF as a source of validation that you can see her for what she is. And it's hard to get to that point if you haven't fucked a variety of women. You'll be confusing ho's and housewifes, failing to maintain frame because you need to keep her, and constantly having to over-use dread game to "trick" her into thinking you are this alpha male with sexual options.

[–]bogeyegod-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy

Good post. I can relate, the part about being able to truly walk away is true. Unless you have experience there just isn't the capacity for that depth of discernment. What is SMV?

[–]Endorsed ContributorBluepillProfessor45 points46 points  (6 children) | Copy

Thanks for this RPS! Veteran of a 20+ year marriage to a high earning, professional, ball busting lawyer. She makes most of the money, I do most of the household crap- and Oh God the taxi services: Sports, doctors and dentists. He drives all day. There should be a song about that.

Can you reframe being a Beta Bitch at home into being the Alpha fucks in bed? You betcha!

I had some built in advantages. I am a martial artist and a former competition power lifter. Despite her education and considerable organization skills I am far, far more creative and intelligent than my wife. A lot more interesting also, though that is not exactly a rare advantage. I started as an Alpha businessman and even had a couple plates that I let drop when I found my wife in Graduate School- or more accurately she found me. She approached, flirted, asked me out, and even interrupted my marriage proposal to tell me "Yes" before I even got to the question.

Can anybody guess what happened?

That twice a day sex dried up by year 3 of the marriage. Amazingly that was the year my business started going badly and I slowly betafied. Not quite "Abandon All Hope To All Who Enter" but without TRP the next 10 years were a literal hell on Earth. About a year ago, after more than a decade of despair, sexual denials, and growing hatred for this impish little disrespectful shrew I found The Red Pill.

I studied everything I could find, read more than 40 books and decided it was time to take back my balls. I went back to the gym and took charge- Commence Shit Test storm which finally died down after I showed my wife that she no longer had the power to affect me emotionally AND that I had the power to pull fresh, younger, better looking tang if I chose.

Today, TRP +1 year. We have sex at least every other day. She speaks in a feminine, sweet voice to me or else. I will not tolerate any disrespect whatsoever and she polices herself carefully, knowing the consequences (--Edit: This part was linked to TBP so let me give a hearty Fuck off Blue Pills with further exhortations to pull your panties out of your crackholes. "The Consequences" are that she incurs my displeasure. Withdrawing emotional support and validation is the TRP way. Your claims that TRP advocates the abuse of women is a lie. TRP advocates treating women how they want to be treated and does not advocate or even tolerate the physical abuse of women unless it is done in the bedroom with a safe-word). She comes home from work and falls into my arms, often completely relaxed in an instant, sighing her relief.

That is the difference between marriage 2.0 and TRP.

That is my "success story." Thanks TRP!

•Are LTRs feasible/beneficial in today's climate?

Yes, but ONLY if the man remains dominant, passes shit tests, and makes it clear that his commitment is contingent on her behavior. Married or not it doesn't matter. You must be willing to withdraw your commitment if she withdraws the sex.

•What are some ways LTR game differs from pickup and plate spinning?

In a LTR or a pickup with a random you still use 'game' to increase her attraction. You still use the same techniques except "Negging" becomes "teasing" while "break rapport" becomes "Dread." Rapport and comfort building does not end with a LTR either. Your LTR is still a woman and the most attractive thing to a woman is knowing that her LTR has options and she has to work for it.

•Handling relationship shit tests

Always have 1 in the kitty. Marry a woman who makes more money than you. Cultivate an IDGAF attitude. When you really mean it the shit tests will (almost) stop.

•Red flags, signs that it's time to move on

I love you but I'm not in love with you. Short of that most LTR problems can be fixed by TRP. Before you leave for good, try the TRP way first. Don't check out completely until you have increased your desirability and become a better man who is drawing attention from other women. Before you file for divorce, or mentally check out, try TELLING your wife in no uncertain terms how it is going to be. She will respond or she won't. Maintain frame no matter what.

•Yellow flags, things to look out for

--Forces you to qualify to have sex with her. Transactional sex is always terrible sex.
--Does not look at you with admiring, loving, soft eyes. --Criticizes you in public (or in private except in a demure, apologetic way and it is an issue about which she objectively has a point). --Does not describe you with fondness and softness to others. Her voice should go up several octaves and assume a baby-talk tone when she is introducing you to others...'this is Tom, my booooyyyyfriend' followed by a slight sigh is optimal. --Evasive about sexual experiences ESPECIALLY if she is sexually inhibited with you.

[–]MetacognitiveMan6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy

Don't check out completely until you have increased your desirability and become a better man who is drawing attention from other women.

I agree 100% with this. There is no reason to check out of the relationship prematurely if your goal is saving it. There will be some dread on her part once you increase your SMV above hers or start pulling away. Continue down the path of increasing your SMV until you can go no further. Once you get to where you feel you are close to your best, if things still aren't working out, only then is it ultimatum time. At this point if she hadn't gotten the message, ultimatums are unlikely to work, but they are more likely than before.

[–]gwjuicer0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Great post thanks, very useful tool for my current situation.

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[–]Endorsed ContributorBluepillProfessor5 points6 points  (1 child) | Copy

I posted this answer previously but it is worth it. Thanks for asking.

EDIT: THIS SHIT WORKS AND IT IS EXTREMELY POWERFUL. This program I propose is basically ALL of MMSL and MAP in a tidy 11 step program. Already I have had several dudes PM me about using this and practically losing their wife (cuz she thinks they got a GF and they decide to check out of the relationship). Remember! The goal is to restart your wife's attraction by activating secondary selection triggers- NOT by destroying her completely.

YOU MUST INCLUDE SOME SUGAR WITH YOUR HONEY. Look out for Comfort Tests and be able to show some comfort and reassurance when needed.

If it is a Shit Test (sharp, demanding, unreasonable) then Agree and Amplify, deflect, nuke etc.

If it is a Comfort Test (pleading, begging, supplicating) then it may be some time for comfort. Don't belittle how ALPHA it can really be to take your upset wife in your arms and hold her calmly until she chills out. See also Amused Mastery. Again, don't overdue it. If she is whining and crying, a couple minutes of hugging should be enough. Laying in bed after she denies sex and putting your head on her belly like a little boy is NOT an option.

WARNING The tactics implemented below must be done SLOWLY. Level 1 and 2 can be implemented immediately but I would take a good 3 months or more before you get to level 3. Before you get to level 8 or 9 you should have been improving for about 1-month for each year of marriage where you have been a Beta stub.


"Dread" is putting the "dread" in your wife or LTR that you have other opportunities and other options rather than being chained to her whims. They HATE it....but women are irresistibly attracted to men who have options. This is well known as "Secondary Selection" or "Pre-selection Bias." It is about the only way to turn around a /r/deadbedrooms marriage.

Dread Level 1: Start to take charge. Start passing shit tests. Be the leader and the Captain. Stay calm, stoic, masculine. Read all the sidebar- twice. Make your plan of improvement and implement it. Begin taking care of business like you are in charge. Stop following your wife around like a puppy and irritating her. Build your dominant, masculine frame. TAKE THE PUSSY OFF THE BLOODY PEDASTAL, PICK UP YOUR BALLS AND START BEING A MAN.

Dread Level 2: Get thee to the Iron Temple. Work out. Build muscles. Get in shape like a rock. Lift heavy weights to exhaustion 3-4 times a week.

Dread Level 3: Start going out without your wife/GF. Leave for several hours at a time- go to the mall and walk around, go the gym, go to your brother's house, go to church and pray the Rosary. Doesn't matter, just be gone and don't tell her where you went. When she asks just pressure flip ("I went out, why do you care" or something like that- although this can come off as passive/aggressive). The KEY is to NGAF (Not Give A Fuck) and ultimately inform her firmly that you do not report to her. DO NOT blow it by losing frame when she loses her shit and starts threatening. Just smile grimly and tell her you do not report to her.

Dread Level 4: Upgrade your wardrobe. Start dressing a little bit nicer, even at home and especially when you go out in public. Pay attention to your appearance, no more 3 days without a shower! No Don't where a tuxedo but dress slightly better than before- a nice sweater instead of a baggy sweatshirt is a good place to start.

Dread Level 5: Begin to study pickup artistry. Leave books on PUA around the house to caffeinate the hamster.

Dread Level 6: Begin to practice pickup artistry on randoms. You are NOT looking for a lay or to "cheat" but merely to practice and to have fun bantering with pretty girls. When you get some success and find out how easy it is to approach confidently when you REALLY don't give a shit (your married dude, why do you care anyway) your attitude and newfound confidence at home is likely to make her change very quickly.

Dread Level 7: SHOW your wife/GF that you are capable of talking to pretty girls in public. Start with waitresses. I promise if you are with your wife and it has been 20-30 days since she gave you the 'favor' of her body, if you do this 1 or 2 things will happen- probably both. First she will lose her shit and accuse you of all kinds of things. MAINTAIN FRAME/Amused Mastery. You are finally getting your wife to respond. That is the important thing- there is hope for the relationship. Second, she will probably fuck you with more passion than your honeymoon.

Dread Level 8: This is the lynchpin. If it has not worked before now and you are approaching Athol Kay's "Option A" or "Option B" point (i.e. start fucking me like I need or I am filing for divorce). Note this is the END of a LONG process. Give the first 7 steps about 1 month for every year of your marriage where you have been a Beta toe stub pushover BUT, it is finally time to start speaking in masculine language- directly and up front. After yet another sexual denial just look her in the eye and say: "You know I need this, right?" Don't argue, don't get into emotional blackmail. Leave it hanging in the air and then disappear for several hours.

Dread Level 9: TELL her how it is going to be- or else. I got to this point in my marriage before it turned around. I told my wife: "You have a simple choice to make. Fuck me...or fuck you." If you make it to this point you must be mentally checked out enough and pissed off enough to actually move out and file for divorce if things don't improve. Your IDGAF is no longer an act.

Dread Level 10: Get a GF or mistress and start having sex like you were meant to have.

Dread Level Thermonuclear: TELL your wife that you have a GF so you won't be bothering her for sex any longer unless she wants it (because you would never deny your wife something that she wants and needs). Then when she blows up leave for the entire night. Come back next day (if you want) or file for divorce. By this time you would probably welcome the loss of this shrewish, frigid woman.

[–]TRP VanguardHumanSockPuppet8 points9 points  (0 children) | Copy

It's women who want LTRs more than men, so it is a woman's responsibility to make herself worthy of it. Remember, men are the gatekeepers of relationships.

Beta behaviours are a kind of "reassurance" that the woman has "convinced you" to stick around for her. So beta behaviours are best reserved as rewards for a woman's good behaviour. If she submissive, supportive, helpful, and caring, then she gets rewarded from time to time with a beta gesture here and there, just to let her know that she's doing good and you plan on sticking around.

[–]1TheReason134 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy


I have written down a list of rules I call "the fundamentals" I put up in my clothing closet. They are the basics I fall back on, you can use them to your satisfaction as long as you do not compromise and give me a bad reputation with your fuck ups.

I disagree with the notion that the exact moment you provide for a female, you are exhibiting beta qualities. To me its not that simple. If you keep it systematic with some random spontaneity here and there it works in your favor. As long as you maintain a reward system your chances for success skyrocket. They haven't failed me once.

The Five Relationship Fundamentals:

1) DO NOT TOLERATE DISRESPECT. Tattoo this to your forehead (not literally you fool). Do not compromise.

2) Punish "bad behavior" with ZERO TOLERANCE, reward "good behavior" with provision and affection. Do not compromise.

3) Tattoo Briffaults Law to your forehead (not literally you fool). She will try to manipulate you with guilt trips and promises of future reciprocation to gain access to your resources. DO NOT BE A SUCKER. Demand immediate reciprocation in whatever form is appropriate to her request, and ignore her guilt trips. Do not compromise

4) Spontaneously reward her unexpectedly on occasion if she has been a good girl, but NOT OFTEN by any means and only on YOUR TERMS. Do not compromise

5) If she does not comply, next her, but PLAN FIRST. Take measures to prevent her from making false claims or pulling any shit if you end the relationship. Act like nothing in the world is the matter. Then next her as soon as possible. Do not compromise.

If she ever bitches or shit tests in a nuclear way, there is something I always repeat in my mind to make sure I maintain frame. Picture and old, enormous, intimidating oak tree. Dwarfing anything that surrounds it.

"You are an oak tree, immovable, independent, calm, strong."

Automatically, your posture will improve, your fears and insecurities will vanish, you will talk in a commanding voice, your emotions will be separate from her, your resolve will be absolutely deliberate. Sometimes the mere look in your eyes will be enough to make her submit, and on occasion wet her panties.

I've followed these "fundamentals" strictly and it has worked remarkably well in taming the most spoiled prom queens to the most rebellious ghetto queens. As long as you do not compromise she will always see you as nothing to fuck with.

She will integrate your non verbal demand for respect into her mental image of the relationship, and assume the natural submissive role regardless of what a spoiled brat she is. She will eagerly work for what she wants from you, physically and mentally.

The one thing I will never endorse is marriage. I don't care if she is the virgin Mary, if she is ignorant of the power marriage bestows her over you now, she will later. DO NOT BE FOOLED into thinking she will not use it against you, whatever doubts or conscience she has to the contrary will be out rationalized by her "support group." They will make you look like Hitler and in the end she will believe it and happily ruin you financially.

It is better to be safe than divorce raped.

[–]ThrownAwayTRP3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy

My recent post on how NOT to approach your feelings for a woman. Let their action guide your emotional response. Do not give up your emotional attention for nothing, let them earn it.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

One benefit of an LTR is good sex, on a regular basis. While /u/archwinger had a great post about how you should always have sexual options to keep her competing for you, if you're doing this right you'll be having plenty of sex and in my experience it's better than the average one night stand.

[–]robesta[🍰] 3 points4 points  (5 children) | Copy

It's much easier to get desirable LTR behavior if you start with proper frame than rehabilitate an LTR in which you lost or never had frame in.

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[–]robesta[🍰] 6 points7 points  (2 children) | Copy

Beware of the sunken costs fallacy. Just cause you have 20 years of history does not mean that she'll meet your needs better than another woman (or women).

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[–]Endorsed ContributorBluepillProfessor1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

When you reach the point mentally when the backup plan is TRULY an option that is when things will start to turn around. She still thinks she "has" you and can treat you as badly as she wants. Thus the Shit tests. Keep moving forward.

[–]1 Endorsed Contributormordanus3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy

Having an LTR is life on hardmode. The major problem with it is that the more committed you become, the harder it is to just walk away. The ability to walk away is what keeps a woman trying harder to keep you and LTR's/marriage make her stop caring about pleasing you. That is why sex dies off after marriage. That is why women let themselves go after marriage.

Always maintain that the relationship is less important to you than it is to her or she will have that power over you.

[–]semondemon241 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy

I am currently in a LTR. We have moved in and so far its had its ups and downs but using the stuff I have learned here I have managed to maintain her attraction to me by maintaining frame and doing whatever I want...

Now to my concern... I am about to graduate with an engineering degree and I will likely make a good amount of money. She isn't going to make much money with what she is graduating in. I am worried that she is thinking she can just piggy pack off my salary and do whatever she wants. Its not the money I care about, its the principal behind just using me as a means to an end. I want to bring this up to talk to her. Any good ways you guys think I can approach her without making myself seem vulnerable and at the same time getting the information I want out of her?

Edit: I should mention that she is hot as fuck but I am by no means a beta in the relationship. She could have any guy she wants but I am definitely giving her a large dose of alpha. In the context of being a little beta, I do nice things for her but only on my terms. The reason why this issue is bothering me is bcuz her mom is totally piggy back riding her step-dad for a bunch of stuff. How do I make it clear that I am not a provider?

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy

This is a tricky one. I've dealt with this too, since I started dating my GF when she was in college and I had been working and was starting to get comfortable. If she is showing gold digging signs NOW, then you need to accept she is not wife material. It only gets worse over time. Actually, in general, if in year one you see an ugly side of a woman that you don't like, you need to accept by year 5 it will be way worse.

Also, if you can't straight up bring a topic to discussion, then it's not the best relationship. I'd use this an a way to test your relationship.

Here is some effective ways of evaluating for GD tendencies or just laziness.

Ask her what her plans are for the next 5 years. Where does she want to be? Is she on track?

My GF said she wanted to have her masters done and be working in X type of career, and she wanted to be married. That's a solid plan, that shows her parents raised her to have some self-pride and ambition, but not be "obsessed" with work. Is she going to make 60k, 80k, or 120k at that point? Who cares - the point is she has the drive to grow. She's at least not one of these girls who gets into some shitty HR career, spends all day gossiping, and basically just waits to "get" to stop working when a guy saves her.

Rent test. If she's living with you, SHE SHOULD OFFER TO MAKE UP RENT in some way. She should at least have the thought and the pride to say "hey, living ain't cheap, rent is maybe 1.8k for you plus my added utilities, I'll offer." If she doesn't have the money, she should bring it up with you. If she believes this horseshit narrative about how doing that would make her a roommate, not a girlfriend, then she's out.

If you bring up her paying for a chunk of rent and she flips out, it's done. Even if she flips out in the moment and then later realizes she is "losing you" by this show of her true personality, and comes back to say sorry, she is still most likely full of GD mentality.

Lastly, I always downplay and keep quiet about my financial prospects. You brag to your woman about 200k salary, she starts to think "ooh, I'm making 100k per year, ooo this means I'll be comfy, why should I be slaving away for 30k a year!"

I picked 200k as an example, but this is true to an extent even in much smaller gaps. Did you see that post about that guy who had been struggling financially for 10+ years and in his thirties his business took off and he was bringing home around 200k or so? His wife posted on reddit bitching about how unfair it was that she "had to work" now that he technically could be supporting them both, and how it was unfair that HER salary was going to shared expenses like kids and retirement. Her salary should get to be spend only on her because it's smaller and he can technically pay tuition himself.

He should have kept his mouth shut upon their financial situation. Sadly most women will lose their motivation to achieve when they realize it's more fun to sit back and be attached to a high-achiever. Which is why sometimes you want to cloak your potential.

[–]semondemon240 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

We split rent as of right now. As both college students we know it's half half. But when I make more money, is she going to stop growing in her career ? Am I responsible for her financially? These are the questions. I think asking the 5 year plan is a good start. Thanks bro.

[–]NikolaTeslaMGTOW-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy

The only acceptable reasons to make less money is to have children and take time off to care for them, otherwise its just bullshit. I would allow 2 years no work for each kid she has and maybe if you want a lot of kids (like 6 or something) then reduced hours makes sense for a time. Otherwise she needs to be working.

Think of it this way, if she was working you could afford a second woman. Now do you understand why they don't want to work so much? Same reason weddings cost a fortune, if they can spend all your money you can't buy more wives/women.

[–]draketton1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Keep your subcommunication solid, consistent and masculine at all times. This means body language, eye contact, tone and speed of voice.

When your life is tough, don't be afraid to vent troubles and admit a moment of weakness to your LTR. However, only do it with your words. Subcommunication must stay strong. You want to send the message "yeah, we're in a rough spot right now, but it won't break me down, I can deal."

Be very decisive for the both of you when it comes to the mundane details of life. This means where to eat, what clothes to wear in public outings, how chores and errands are going to be divvied up. Find local events that look interesting to you and bring your LTR along, using the wording "we're going to x at y time" to tell her.

Large expenditures of money will be necessary to keep a family-oriented LTR on track. But the less she knows about the details of these expenditures, the better.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Some people are too broken for LTR. I think it takes two highly intelligent people with a profound admiration of each other to have a successful relationship; never compromise yourself.

Edit: good luck finding a unicorn to admire

[–]TooMuchToDoo1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

I'm fairly inexperienced. I've never had an LTR, but also haven't ever spun plates. Would it be against my best interest to go straight into a LTR?

[–]NikolaTeslaMGTOW1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

If you can maintain hyper vigilance it might be good to use a LTR to train urself a bit, but since you haven't had experience you pretty much won't be able to. Prob just do self improvement, research a ton of stuff (sidebar etc), and try talking to girls with no expectations.

Main thing is, don't get attached. If you feel anything for the girl run the other way b/c you have already fucked up. You don't want to get stuck with oneitis.

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[–]NikolaTeslaMGTOW0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

Divorce rape her, then get hot girls.

I think it depends where you put her on the scale and how well you can maintain alpha or hypergamy status. But the real question is, why be with an ugly girl? If you want a conversation talk to a man, if you want your dick sucked talk to a girl.

As long as she isnt pants on head retarded, looks count for a lot more. And if you can get her now, you can get her in 10years when no one will want her still b/c she is old and you will be more well off.

TL:DR Who cares how much money she makes or how smart she is?

[–]1KyfhoMyoba0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

Daniel Rose's "Sex God Method" If you aren't beta bux, you'd better be goddamn alpha fux.

[–][deleted] 1 points1 points | Copy

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[–]Endorsed ContributorBluepillProfessor0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Well if she told you I guess that settles it.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

• Red flags, signs that it's time to move on

This is the biggest battle for most. So important that you keep on your mission and keep a mindset that she is replaceable.

So many of us go through a shitty relationship because we are not strong enough to put ourselves through the temporary pain that goes with purging yourself of a toxic person.

When we need to throw up, we don't like the few moments it takes to vomit. But when we get rid of that shit, we finally start to feel better.

Sometimes the best Red flag indicator is when your gut tells you something is up. There is is a reason your gut has millions of brain cells.

Trust that second brain that is telling something is not right about her.

[–]1independentmale3 points4 points  (2 children) | Copy

Always be willing to walk away.

Think of your LTR as a long term monogamous plate. Go into it with the mindset that it probably won't last forever. She's not a unicorn and she's not your soulmate. She's your first mate and you're her captain for now. Love and enjoy her while you have her but be ready to put your big boy pants on and be without her at any time. If you start feeling like you can't live without her, you've lost the battle.

Don't become too dependent on her. Anything she can do for you, know that you can do for yourself, find elsewhere or hire it out, probably for less time, money and effort than it takes to get it out of her. You can't be needy for her. She's a positive benefit in your life, to be sure, but she's not necessary for your survival or happiness. There are countless other women just waiting to take her place and they're younger and hotter. Know this.

This mindset will help you deflect shit tests and be happier in general.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy

"Don't let yourself get attached to anything you are not willing to walk out on in 30 seconds flat if you feel the heat around the corner." - Heat (1995)

[–]Endorsed Contributorseattleron0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

I've found that a lot of RP theories for attracting a woman hold true in LTR's. You have to balance things a little more, and are afforded a little more beta behavior, but generally the same priciples that got her will keep her.

When she gets out of line, dread game is an easy, quick, effective way to let her remember all of the reasons she liked you in the first place. It is usually saved for more serious situations.

Interested to hear what everyone has to offer.

[–]zlex2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

The main difference between LTR and plates for me is the fear of emotional investment. Just like when you start spinning plates and you get anxiety over approaching women, entering into a LTR comes with commitment anxiety. When spinning plates anxiety and fear comes from the pain associated with rejection. With a LTR the anxiety and fear comes from the pain of losing a connection with someone you care about and are emotionally invested in. When you lose a plate its no big deal, but when you lose someone you've been close to for many years it can be very painful. The decision to enter into a LTR is all about risk/reward analysis and whether or not you feel the reward of having that partner be part of your life is worth the risk of potentially losing that partner. It's not always the right time to enter into a LTR, especially if you are young (where relationships are mostly just a way of saving face for fucking) or you are fresh out of a recent relationship.

LTR strategy is much more complex and it's very unlike plate spinning where you can apply a pro-forma model that will generally work if applied enough times in succession. In a LTR you have to deal with your partners nuances and no single woman fits an exact mold, even if they have some of the pro-forma qualities that are outlined in RP theory.

If there is any advice I could give to someone looking for/currently starting a LTR it would be the importance of balance or at least some semblance of balance. You don't want to date someone way smarter than you, or way less successful than you, or way uglier than you. These kind of imbalances in relationships breed resentment and jealousy.

Values are important as well. If you and your partner value completely different things in life than you will have a very hard time maintaining your relationship. Personally, I value intelligence, independence and hard-work. I would never want to be with someone who was content cleaning after me all day--my girlfriend has a job that she is passionate about, and a drive to do more with her life than just sit around and lick my balls. However, that is just me, based on my experience with women, as I have found women who have nothing outside of their life except me, become obsessed with ~me~ and everything I do and don't do. Some people may be looking for exactly that, and thus its important that you find a girl who is interested in doing that with her life.

What's also important is to ensure that your partner maintains their value as a partner, and to make sure that you are maintaining your own value as well. Don't stop making decisions, don't stop being confident, don't become fat and lazy. Don't let your partner slip into oblivion either. I have seen many friend's relationships go down the shitter because their SO just stopped giving a fuck once they felt secure in their relationship. Relationships, like anything, have to be maintained, and make sure that if your SO is becoming something you dislike that you are direct with them about it. Don't pussy-foot around issues in your relationship. Be confident and demanding, but also be aware that you have to do things that your SO may want as well.

The hardest thing about LTR is maintaining confidence and manliness because you SO will expect you to also share your emotions and your problems with them. You can't be a robot, you have to develop a connection with them if you want your relationship to grow. This is another area where plating and LTRs diverge intensely. With plates you can play the macho robot man who doesn't give a fuck about any one chick. With a LTR you have to show that you give a fuck. Your SO, at some point, will know all the weak horrible shit about you. This is where plating and LTRs diverge yet again. You have to show that you can overcome your weaknesses, not just pretend that they don't exist. You can't fake that crap in a LTR. You have be a man and actually overcome the obstacles that you've shared with your SO and show that you are confident and capable.

Big flags to me are constant shit-testing, wanting to spend all/no time with you, consistently getting into arguments about nothing. I'm sure there are dead obvious signs like she cut off your cats head and mounted onto the fridge, but beyond the blatant, it's often difficult to gauge when it's time to jump ship. If you find yourself not wanting to go home, or if you find yourself constantly thinking about other women in a more serious capacity than fucking their asshole, there are probably things wrong in your relationship. The biggest signs will come from you, and not you SO. You will be miserable, unhappy, and seeking out relationships with other women in more than physical ways.


[–]ManOfGrapes4 points5 points  (21 children) | Copy

Currently in a LTR at a young age. I swallowed the pill right as I agreed to be exclusive. Needless to say, it's been an eye-opening experience.

The most gut-wrenching realization is that my generation is done for. Phones, tablets, FB, IG, etc. have absolutely destroyed any sense of integrity that we once had. Zero accountability. Zero responsibility.

But I digress, the LTR is a ticking time bomb. She is obsessed with material possesions, goes to a fashion school, and no matter how well I maintain frame, always finds a way to be unhappy. I have plenty to offer, but I am starting to believe that men simply cannot meet women's ludicrous expectations. Case in point, she constantly remarks about Mark Wahlberg's body. I A&A, but it annoys the fuck out of me.

I am not saying that there aren't great women out there, but the odds of finding one are slim. On top of that, it's nearly impossible not to be apprehensive about entering a LTR with them due to the rest of the scum out there. As a man who wishes to have a family someday, I might have to start considering an alternative, and that really pains me. To any young man out there, I would wait until post-college to even consider a LTR.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

You did not vet this woman well enough. /u/OccamsUsername's Unicorn Hunter Checklist will give you a good foundation for what to look for in a woman with whom you become exclusive.

[–]ManOfGrapes0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Couldn't agree more. Hindsight is 20/20. Thanks for the link.

[–]anonlymouse0 points1 point  (17 children) | Copy

The most gut-wrenching realization is that my generation is done for. Phones, tablets, FB, IG, etc. have absolutely destroyed any sense of integrity that we once had. Zero accountability. Zero responsibility.

Says the redditor. Reddit is just another kind of social network, with even less accountability due to anonymity. On top of that, blaming technology for your problems is just another example of not taking accountability or responsibility. You need to take a long hard look at yourself.

[–]ManOfGrapes0 points1 point  (10 children) | Copy

In no way am I blaming technology. I am in control of my own life. However, my point was that tech has changed the game. It is an entirely different ball game than ten years ago.

[–]anonlymouse-1 points0 points  (9 children) | Copy

Not really. It's the same game it was 20,000 years ago. Just the details have changed. It'll take a very long time before technology puts enough selective pressure on evolution to radically change the game.

[–]ManOfGrapes0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

An application like Tinder, which allows for women to sift through hundreds of men in mere minutes, has had a significant impact. Of course, biologic tendencies will never change, but it's still vastly different than before. My OP was pointing out the difficulties in adapting.

[–]anonlymouse-2 points-1 points  (1 child) | Copy

Tinder makes things faster, but the game is still the same. Before Tinder if you were hot it was easy, and if you weren't it was hard. After Tinder, if you're hot it's still easy and if you're not it's still hard. Tinder's also another avenue for playing a light dread game.

[–]ManOfGrapes0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Interesting perspective, I had not thought of it like that.

[–]NikolaTeslaMGTOW-1 points0 points  (5 children) | Copy

Just because you have the same pressures doesn't mean the environment is the same. If you put water in a teapot, it becomes the teapot, i you put water in a cup, it becomes the cup,, so it doesn't matter that water is still water, a cup of water and a teapot of water are vastly different situations.

Or are you telling me women risk death by starvation for them and their young for being whores and fucking everyone in the village still?

[–]anonlymouse-1 points0 points  (4 children) | Copy

It most definitely does matter that water is still water. Looking at only the differences and ignoring the similarities is retarded.

[–]NikolaTeslaMGTOW-1 points0 points  (3 children) | Copy

And that is EXACTLY what you are doing, you didn't even understand the water example. We aren't talking about evolutionary changes here, if you think that you have no understanding of evolution at all.

Take any one of these things and they have completely changed the game (which is why being a beta doesn't work anymore)

-Paternity Tests -Birth control -Industrial Revolution -Infant mortality -TRP -Feminism -Welfare State -Women aren't property anymore -etc etc etc

You need to pull your head out of your ass thinking you are right all the time. To even mention evolution like you did makes me think you just found out about it yesterday, and if you actually do know about evolution, there is no point in discussing a 20k year timeline, because industrial revolution is only about 200years ago, and if we had evolved we wouldn't need to becoming alpha to appease women's gina tingles for a brute man beast would we?

[–][deleted] -1 points-1 points | Copy

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[–]NikolaTeslaMGTOW0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

Omg. I can't believe how dense you are. I didn't say their attraction was changed, you have zero reading comprehension.

and if we had evolved we wouldn't need to becoming alpha to appease women's gina tingles for a brute man beast would we?

You seriously can't read.

Before woman had to CHOOSE between gina tingles and survival. Now they don't have to. This greatly changes the sexual strategies which means its a completely different battlefield since being more beta was successful for a long time.

When a woman has to choose between her and her young starving to death, vs gina tingles, guess which one is going to win most of the time? Yup is feeding herself and young. Beta's used to have something to offer, now they don't b/c of listed reasons. This changes everything, behavior changes instantly based on incentives.

Nice personal attacks that are irrelevant to anything, shows you have no argument.

[–]NikolaTeslaMGTOW-1 points0 points  (5 children) | Copy

You are missing the point. Women having super large social groups in major cities where they can contact each other is bad. Basically what I mean is, in small towns or smaller social groups acting like a whore gets you labelled as a whore, so being a whore is a bad thing. If you can be a whore semi anonymously where you can just drop people and change, compared to moving to a new state, it gives women new found freedom in being whores. The punishment from the social stigma of behavior is greatly reduced b/c of this.

If we had a website which let us prove we fucked various girls with evidence and create "whore profiles", basically "vag fax", women would instantly change their behavior to not be as much of whores since they would have to deal with the consequences. Until such counter tech exists, its in women's favor. The only thing in men's favor is the manosphere which is a great counterbalance, but extremely limited, stigmatized, and has to be kept secret.

Tech has taken away social repercussions for women being whores, the state has taken away financial ones, and society has become extremely permissive of female whores (while still hating male ones).

[–]anonlymouse-1 points0 points  (4 children) | Copy

Being a whore isn't a bad thing. If you want to fuck lots of women, women who fuck lots of men is great for you. And the "hate" for male whores doesn't stop them from fucking lots of female whores, so clearly, not a problem.

If you want an LTR, play with the women who also only want LTRs. Yes, they do exist. No, you're not going to find them in the places where you get ONS.

[–]NikolaTeslaMGTOW-1 points0 points  (3 children) | Copy

Wow. You are very bad at thinking. Being a whore IS a bad thing, and a bad thing for EVERYONE. A whore is bad for herself, a whore is bad for betas (beta buxx), and bad for alphas (stds, baggage, etc), and bad for her kids. Its bad all around (which is why we have marriage).

If women weren't whores alphas would just get more reliable pussy until they were done with them. Betas might not get shit or like now have to wait until alphas dropped the girls, so if anything its the same for betas in that respect.

"If a woman is whore. She puts out a lot to a lot of different guys. This is good for me."


This is bad. The optimal solution is lots of virgins you keep in a harem, settling for whores who have STDs, emotional baggage, and the work of a ONS (if you do that) is way worse than a harem. You have to use condoms, you have to worry about paternity, etc etc. Banging whores is the solution to "women are shit whores", not something we want. And the reason we don't want to invest in whores, is because it is biologically BAD to do so. Whores are not to be invested in. They are harmful, they are good for fucking and hoping they get pregnant and someone else has to pay for it, that is it, that is their purpose in life. A virgin/unicorn in a distant land or years ago is worth investing in to have a family, but because they don't exist (near 0%) we have to pursue the spray sperm everywhere strategy (aka alpha).

There is no such thing as a male whore unless you mean a beta who is a "time whore". You sound like a feminist still, you need to deprogram yourself. Check the sidebar.

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[–]NikolaTeslaMGTOW-1 points0 points  (1 child) | Copy

And your not AF to have a harem of virgins. Would you like to continue? Personal insults irrelevant to discussion don't matter and show you are weak.

Fucking whores is a maladaptive but better strategy atm due to various reasons we listed. But not having stable marriages will destroy society (simply b/c men won't work). It ends in a collapse. Its like taking out debts. The women get alpha fucks and beta bucks, but the trust in women is down. When the trust gets low enough no men will get married (aka loan money to women), and then the whole system crashes.

[–]anonlymouse0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

And your not AF to have a harem of virgins. Would you like to continue? Personal insults irrelevant to discussion don't matter and show you are weak.

Personal insults are relevant to the discussion when your failings cloud your judgement. You haven't read the basics of red pill theory. Sexual strategy is amoral. That doesn't mean men get to do what they want. It means men and women get to do what they want.

[–]magicalbird0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Considering your knowledge of the atmosphere, do serial monogamy. Every few months decide if the relationship is going well enough to continue. If she's on IG too much then you can soft next her. If she does something you don't like you can move on to the next girl.

[–][deleted] 0 points0 points | Copy

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[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (4 children) | Copy

This kind of mistrust is a great way to sabotage a relationship.

Do. Not. Follow.

[–]RK-no1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Blindly trust what girls say?

[–]NikolaTeslaMGTOW0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

Id say trusting women destroys way more relationships, families, and men's lives than mistrusting them by several orders of magnitude, thats what TRP is about, women are liars and full of shit and can't be trusted. This isn't irrational bigotry, this is calculated biology and bell curves.

[–]1KyfhoMyoba0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

Deception is HARD WIRED into the female's reproductive strategy.

Ignore this at your peril.

[–]NikolaTeslaMGTOW0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Something is seriously fucking wrong. Your post was downvoted even though this is obvious, women are not only straight up liars but at the very very best, anyone who is even remotely honest, would say they are intentionally ambiguous. I mean, if you read "sperm wars" you can see how the woman's ACTUAL FUCKING WOMB IS DECEPTIVE. This isn't some fucking bigotry like "women lie", this is STATISICAL AND BIOLOGICAL EVIDENCE. Its not pretty, I know, but this is reality. If you don't want to face facts stay blue pill don't waste ur time downvoting or 'being offended"

[–]TRPer69-1 points0 points  (1 child) | Copy

someone's got cheated on haha

[–]Gmun230 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

This really hit me!

I love the words in one of Stevie Wonder's songs: "…She doesn't use her love to make him weak She uses love to keep him strong…


[–]bleh3210 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

I have an interesting question...

What does it mean when your LTR does not want to move in with you until married?

I understand culture plays a part (asian) however I believe it to be in my best interest that an LTR spends time living together to see the nature of the beast in close environment.

She of course is smart enough to see that and was saddened that I was somewhat 'testing' her in when saying I'd ideally have her live with me for a period of time before marriage.


[–]Red_Shirt_Blue_Pants1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

I highly advise against LTRs with western women because you aren't getting much for all of the time and effort required to maintain a healthy relationship with a woman. I'm all about maximizing the use of time to get the most out of it and a majority of women will not be giving you anything worth endless hours of commitment. Shes after validation and attention and you're after pussy. Maybe more. The only thing you get is pussy and the second you settle in a relationship is the same instance you are settling into her frame. LTRs require effort that could otherwise be used to double your income, discover a new passiom and also meet better women. In every relationship, one person eventually gets bored. If it isn't the man, the women will wait until a better partner is found and then suddenly 180 on you. What will you have left to show for that? A bunch of daps from your bros. Its not worth actually getting into an LTR as opposed to spinning plates. I would actually just tell you to spin ltrs

[–]NikolaTeslaMGTOW-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy

Not sure why this was downvoted. Its pretty sad but women don't know or care what men want at all. So they just act like dumb useless whores who will divorce rape and take the kids and wonder why men don't want to commit (hmm I wonder why ladies).

I mean, there is nothing that women offer except some status and of course sex. Other than that they are all pretty much horrible to be around to the point where its a hard choice to even choose between plates and sex workers or intellectually induced asexuality.

The juice isn't worth the squeeze.

[–][deleted] -2 points-1 points  (15 children) | Copy



[–]1independentmale3 points4 points  (9 children) | Copy

I couldn't disagree more. There are plenty of benefits to an LTR, but since I don't have time to write a novel right now I'm only going to list my favorite one: The sex is better.

We've been together a couple of years now and know one another's most intimate desires. We don't have to use condoms (I'm snipped) since we're not seeing other people. I've got her well trained in the bedroom to do just what I like, when and where and how I like it.

Really great sex takes time and practice with the same partner.

[–]Endorsed ContributorBluepillProfessor0 points1 point  (6 children) | Copy

I agree with the sentiment- there ARE plenty of benefits to a (good) LTR. However, your conclusion is cringe-worthy.

Really great sex takes time and practice with the same partner.

THAT is your biggest "flag" right there! Unless your doing Tantric, good sex does not take practice, it takes passion and the willingness to treat her like a piece of meat for your pleasure. If you don't have that in the beginning you aren't going to 'get it' later.

You have been together 2 years. Let us know how it is going in 2 more after the first baby.

[–]1independentmale0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

good sex does not take practice

I didn't say "good" sex, I said "really great" sex.

One can't possibly learn all of his partner's kinks and turn-ons the first time, or even the first several times. Women especially are often reluctant to really open up and let their freak flag fly until there is an established level of trust in the bedroom. That takes time. She's not going to ask you to put on a ski mask, tie her up and play rapist with her until you've been together awhile.

My girl didn't pull out her box of kinky toys and let me pick one and use it on her the first time we fucked. She didn't hand me the remote control to her vibrating panties at the restaurant on our first dinner date. We didn't go shopping for sexy lingerie or go to a live burlesque show right after we met, but now we've done all of this and so much more.

I'm not saying you can't have good or even great sex with a plate. Surely you can. I'm just saying that, in my experience (I'm in my mid thirties), the sex gets even better after you've been together several dozen times and are able to really open her up and learn to push one another's buttons.

Also, not having to use condoms is outstanding. I can roll over in the night, get my fuck on and fall right back asleep while still inside her. I won't do that with a plate who is seeing other people. No babies here, got that vasectomy several years ago.

[–]anonlymouse0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy

If you don't have that in the beginning you aren't going to 'get it' later.

Except apparently he did.

Let us know how it is going in 2 more after the first baby.

Reading skills are failing you. He got a vasectomy.

[–]Endorsed ContributorBluepillProfessor-1 points0 points  (3 children) | Copy

Yep, missed it. Thanks. Still the same, just add 3 years instead of 2.

[–]anonlymouse0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

Still the same as in still wrong. It doesn't matter how many years after if the baby doesn't come.

[–]Endorsed ContributorBluepillProfessor0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

A worthy adversary but I respond: What? Women don't lose sexual attraction after 4- 7 years of marriage if there are not babies? I suppose it is possible but I never got the memo.

Something weird is going on. I just spent 30 minutes researching sex frequency and decline in marriage. Turns out the last paper I can find is 12 years old from 2002 says: "Does the quality of marital sex increase or decrease with marital duration? Previous research assumes that it decreases; however, there is no empirical evidence of declining quality of marital sex with duration in the literature."

Call me paranoid but they are hiding something- probably the point I am making- that marital sex decreases big time over the marriage whether you have kids or not.

[–]anonlymouse0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

That wouldn't be too surprising if the women are losing their attractiveness due to age. Just like some people can't get erections for fatties, some can't get erections for grannies. You'd expect a decrease in sexual attraction from both sides over time.

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy

I was thinking long distance... not long term. Morning brain fart, apologies.

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy

Fallacy. If you have to train your partner for great sex, then you just enjoy wasting time or started with the wrong canvas. If you're snipped and in a LTR then you have a warped idea that sex is better because you don't allow yourself to explore other options, you HAVE to believe it's better. Revenge, breakup, makeup, ltr, club bathroom, etc... sex is SEX. Who you are makes it great or shitty. I don't need to train some random chick to have great, sweaty, nasty, destroy the room you're in sex... If you game right then you're already setting the tone for what they should be expecting and what they should be expected to do. Please don't justify how much better LTR sex is with the poor actual rationale of how you're stuck with it.

Edit: Brain Fart, was thinking long distance, not long term. Though I do still back the argument regarding sex.

[–]heeb1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy

There's 10 more just like her.

Except those 10 aren't my daughter's mother.

[–]NikolaTeslaMGTOW1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

You realize this is a good thing right?

[–]heeb0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

I do, indeed, realise it is a good thing that those 10 aren't my daughter's mother.

Can't really remember the original post, as it has been completely altered… Do you recall what it said?

[–]1 TRP SupporterFred_Flintstone0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Man I just had the shittest day but this edit completely cracked me up!

[–]teamjkforawhile0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

I've seen it posted here before that LTRs are TRP on hard mode, and I couldn't agree more.

[–]SouthwellR0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

How big of a plus is a girl being

A) A virgin B) Foreign (non westernized culturally)

when it comes to judging her for entering a LTR?

[–]Reddthrown0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Virgin is a big plus big because she will attach to you more strongly than otherwise.

I dated non Western women (South American and Eastern Europe) and would not have a LTR with one. I find the cultures too fundamentally different.

[–]thewrightstuff88-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy

Holding your woman accountable for her actions is a big thing for me. When something happens and its explainable on your behalf but for her, she is constantly flipping a shit, take a minute (or an hour), step back, and freeze her out. Simply refuse to talk to her until she has defused. Maintain the notion that you want to talk to an adult, not a child, and will wait until you have an interaction with one. This has worked well for me lately because after defusing her, we can have a logical conversation about whatever situation happened and in the end, 4 out of 5 times, I get a legit apology for her behavior.

Patience is a virtue, its something us men possess (as long as we can maintain that aspect of self control). In a sense, we are leading by maintaining a cooler head.

[–][deleted] -2 points-1 points  (1 child) | Copy

If you don't trust the woman, you're not ready for a relationship.

Before you call a relationship, ask yourself: "Do I really trust this woman. If she goes out of town, is there any doubt that she'll be hooking up with dudes?"

If you think she'll ever cheat on you, you're not ready to call it a relationship. She needs to earn your trust, and you need to be open to giving her your trust.

The both of you need to be able to create a safe space where you can show your vulnerabilities, while making sure you don't become needy on her, and becoming beta.

No trust. No relationship.

[–]NikolaTeslaMGTOW0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Mmmmmmm...... theres no way you can trust women nowadays at all, I mean are you suggesting fucking them for a year before entering a LTR? I guess that makes sense, but I wouldn't trust a woman very much unless we spent at least a year together, and then only mildly.

Trusting women is basically blue pill. NGAF about whether women leave/cheat is red pill.

[–]musicvita25-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy

I think for a woman to become an LTR she has to pass an extremely long checklist to allow an alpha/red pill man to let her in to a relationship. At the end of the day, to go out with someone must be built on trust, attraction and the fact you can deal with each other.

However, call me silly, but you also need to just click straight away as well as her not being a whore.

Sadly thought I'd found a really good one, until we started texting. Her text game is dreadful. Takes ages to reply, broken replies, and also quite poor. Everything else, only one bf, respectful, same ethnicity, kind, very attractive has been the one major fault.

If we cannot connect via text now, whos to say we ever will.

I believe everything must click straight away. Otherwise its an uphill battle and not worth your time.

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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