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Had a fight last night. Help me parse it.

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March 30, 2016
10 upvotes

I'm very new to the MRP journey - only in my second week of a process I'm expecting will take 18-20 months. As such I'm still working my way through the introductory materials and fully acknowledge that I'm not yet equipped to really properly deal with difficult situations in a new way. I need to understand the nasty fight I had with my wife last night and haven't figured it out yet.

So. Last night my wife and I were getting ready to watch some TV before bed. I was lying on the bed, working on my phone and mentally figuring out some scheduling issues for today. She was putting away her laundry and asked me to get her some water. I told her I was lying down - mentally I was trying to set a little tiny boundary. She seemed surprised by that response, continued with her laundry and after about ONE minute went and got her own water. When she came back she was obviously pissed that I hadn't jumped when she snapped her fingers. Stony faced, stomping angry energy to her walk, etc. After a couple minutes of this she confronts me: "I guess when you said you were lying down, that was really a 'no?' Or did you not hear me?" I told her I heard her but that I just hadn't gotten up yet - I was working on something. She thought I "sounded angry" (which I didn't) and stomped off downstairs. When she came back we fought. I tried to defuse the situation by inviting her to cuddle with me and watch our show but she rejected my overtures because she didn't feel good anymore.

The fight began in earnest after that when she tried to accuse me of jumping straight to pissed off even though I wasn't. (All I was doing was resisting her anger - I was actually quite calm at the time.) Some pointless back and forth after that about the goddamn stupid water. My beta tendencies reared up and I tried to comfort her - I love you! Which she threw back in my face - No you don't! You don't even care that I'm crying!
You cry at the drop of a hat, I said, which really pissed her off.
Fuck you, she said.

I wasn't trying to hurt her when I said she cries at the drop of a hat - she is an everyday crier and has been our whole relationship. I said it because I really didn't know how to react to it in the moment.

The fight segued into some weird shit where she tried to get me to admit that I don't think she works hard enough (which she doesn't - I guess she's recognized that) but I didn't want to go there. That felt like a nuke type response to the situation and at that point, I was looking to finish this so I could go do what I wanted to.

Anyway, her anger was waning by that point and shifting, as it always does, into her feeling depressed, helpless, useless and like a failure. She wished she'd never been born, stressed about how shitty she's going to look today after crying so much, how tired she was going to be since the fight went past her bedtime, etc, etc.

After about an hour of all this she'd finally calmed down enough that we could reconnect somewhat and she went to bed. She texted me: "I'm sorry I fucked everything up again. Like always. And I'm sorry that I don't work as hard as you do and that I cry all the time. I will try to fix it."

All this, because I didn't get her some stupid fucking water. It ruined both our evenings (after what had been a really nice day). Can I expect this kind of behavior from her every time I try to display the least bit of spine? Do you think a different reaction from me could have steered the fight in a different direction? Or should I just have gotten her the fucking water? I'm 100% confident the fight wouldn't have happened if I had.

Also, shit. I'm really anxious because I haven't heard from her yet today. I'm fucking worrying about her mood (she's probably going to be in a bad mood all day) because she hasn't sent me any texts. I do recognize that this is my codependent validation seeking behavior so I'm telling those feelings to fuck off. It's still stress which I don't need.

Please remember: I'm new at this and am not yet equipped to deal with these situations in a productive way. Blue pill me would definitely have gotten her the water. I don't want to live like that anymore.


Post Information
Title Had a fight last night. Help me parse it.
Author ornerycrank
Upvotes 10
Comments 101
Date 30 March 2016 03:40 PM UTC (4 years ago)
Subreddit askMRP
Link https://theredarchive.com/post/207548
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/askMRP/comments/4clb60/had_a_fight_last_night_help_me_parse_it/
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Comments

[–]cj_aubreyRed Beret27 points28 points  (11 children) | Copy

All this, because I didn't get her some stupid fucking water.

No. All of this because she's upset she's married to an extremely submissive and low value man and this upsets her. Your wife is literally begging you to act like a strong man.

She was putting away her laundry and asked me to get her some water.

This was a compliance test. You initially passed it by refusing. But she wasn't sure whether you refused because you were busy or because you're a strong man who's not her bitch. So she decided to ask you.

"I guess when you said you were lying down, that was really a 'no?' Or did you not hear me?"

And you responded that you are in fact her bitch, you were just busy at that moment.

I told her I heard her but that I just hadn't gotten up yet - I was working on something.

There are many correct responses to this, someone else can go into them. But your response confirmed her fear.

She thought I "sounded angry"

She accused you of being butthurt - the reaction of a sensitive low value man. You then confirm this.

I tried to defuse the situation by inviting her to cuddle with me and watch our show but she rejected my overtures because she didn't feel good anymore.

This disturbed her greatly as you continue to confirm her fears and her next move was quite natural.

The fight began in earnest

This pattern continues

My beta tendencies reared up and I tried to comfort her - I love you!

This further convinces her you are a low value man, which pisses her off more.

Which she threw back in my face - No you don't! You don't even care that I'm crying!

The second half of that statement logically makes no sense because women feel and then express the feeling.

Anyway, her anger was waning by that point and shifting, as it always does, into her feeling depressed, helpless, useless and like a failure.

This is how she feels. By this point I think you understand why. She is trying as hard as she can to get you to man up and you keep listening to her words and refusing. She has no idea what to do. But that last approach isn't working so she tries something else.

"I'm sorry I fucked everything up again. Like always. And I'm sorry that I don't work as hard as you do and that I cry all the time. I will try to fix it."

So now to your questions.

Can I expect this kind of behavior from her every time I try to display the least bit of spine?

No. Pass the shit test (about the water) properly and her concerns about your quality will be allayed and this won't happen.

Do you think a different reaction from me could have steered the fight in a different direction?

Yes. There are a number of shit test responses. Any of them would have worked.

Or should I just have gotten her the fucking water?

No. That would not have addressed her concerns.

I'm 100% confident the fight wouldn't have happened if I had.

You would have had a different fight 30 min later.

I don't want to live like that anymore.

Study shit test responses. When you first start using them she'll push back to see if your response is real. Have those fights, go to bed angry, and establish the precedent that you're not her bitch. The tide will turn. This is the same process we all went through.

[–]BluepillProfessorMod / Red Beret6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy

This is your answer OP. THIS!

[–]ornerycrank[S] 1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy

She's literally said that she doesn't know what to do - about her life. Probably one of the most completely honest things she's ever said. I guess it's obvious to everyone but me that she's looking for real life leadership, isn't she? While she's been the de facto family leader for most of our relationship she's clearly in over her head and wants me to step up she just doesn't realize it yet. She also resists my control. She likes to tell me that I'm not the boss of her.

Just the other day we were walking the dog together. At a fork in the road I gestured towards the direction I intended to go. (I didn't vocalize this because I didn't want to alert the dog since I'm training her to walk on the leash.) She didn't notice and bumped into me. She angrily asked "why I didn't warn her we were turning!"

"I gestured. I guess you weren't paying attention! Don't you know you should always pay me your undivided attention?" I joked.

"You're not the boss of me! You don't tell me what to do!" She shot back.

I chuckled, STFU and walked on. A few silent blocks later I was able to start pleasantly chatting with he again and we had a nice rest of the evening.

Was that a shit test? If so did I pass it?

[–]cj_aubreyRed Beret1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Was that a shit test? If so did I pass it?

Yup, that was some respectable A & A. Nice work.

I guess it's obvious to everyone but me that she's looking for real life leadership, isn't she? While she's been the de facto family leader for most of our relationship she's clearly in over her head and wants me to step up she just doesn't realize it yet. She also resists my control. She likes to tell me that I'm not the boss of her.

This is the situation most of us were in when we got here. The reason I could pull your original post apart so well is because I've had that exact same fight with my wife 50 times and learned how to handle it. Its been 4 months since we've had a fight like that. You need to improve your ability to lead and attractiveness until she submits to your leadership. As you see, this is what she wants to do, but it feels dangerous for a woman to be the underlying of a scared chump, so she's going to test you hard to ensure you're worthy of her submission before you get it.

[–]alphabeta49Red Beret0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

You're not the boss of me!

You chuckling was correct because you (hopefully) saw how that is literally what 5 year olds say when they stomp their feet. Your wife acts like a 5 year old. That's funny until you realize you let her do it. Its on you to fix it.

Also:

she's looking for real life leadership, isn't she?

I'm not a huge believer in the Bible anymore, but it gets lots of things right. One of them is that women are capable of finding their purpose in helping a man fulfill his purpose. With the right guy, a woman won't need anything other than that. So yes, she desperately wants your leadership. She'll magically find her purpose and stop throwing such huge pity parties when she can see you stepping up.

Obviously, just make sure you're not being a white knight.

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (3 children) | Copy

Congrats bro, its not easy for a beginner to find his balls and say no to a woman.

Thing is, that's not precisely what you did.

"Get me water because I have the pussy and I want to see if you are still a spineless jellyfish"

"No"

Thats it. No excuses, no explanation just say no next time

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Fuck, this guy here is the one who gets it.

cant head slightly, chuckle, carry on. Repeat 100 times.

[–]ornerycrank[S] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

Thing that pisses me off is that I knew I was saying the wrong thing when I said it. I thought about saying "No" but didn't... because I felt guilty evening thinking about it. I clearly need WISNIFG. I finished NMMNG a couple of days ago but I'm still working on the exercises in it. I have a really hard time saying No in general and to her specifically and that's been the pattern in our relationship since day one.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Read it, it will help.

You have the right to say no and offer zero explanation. The very fact that you don't want to do something is reason enough.

That is..if you and others are living in your frame.

The question I pose to you then....is life worth living if its not in your frame? Do you want to be a willing slave in a rigged game?

[–]fakefalse5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy

STFU.
You cannot win a verbal argument. Nor text for that matter.
Don't feel bad. Your only just learning to walk. Good on you for trying. Now learn to STFU, and read the sidebar.

[–]sexyshoulderdevil75% Liquid Sarcasm7 points8 points  (56 children) | Copy

She started with a shit test. You said you're not playing. She escalated. You fucked up by trying to dole out comfort for her bad behavior. She innately knows that's a weak move and shoved it in your face. Later she gave you a shitty comfort test and you're confused as hell.

It wasn't about the water. She's testing the waters... She senses the shift. Keep on going.

Read up on shit tests and comfort tests. You're knee deep in them and don't know what you're doing.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (47 children) | Copy

shitty comfort test

OP might not understand the reference to his wife's anxiety.
 
OP, does your wife have some kind of diagnosed mental illness? She comes across as histrionic, but it can go along with anxiety, narcissism, and many other issues.
 
The good news is that your wife is capable of overt communication. She told you exactly why she was mad:

  • You gave a timid non-answer to the compliance test where you should have said no.

  • She is mad that you don't value her contributions or that you think her contributions are inadequate. Whether they are or not is irrelevant.

 
/u/ornerycrank, how can you possibly be a source of emotional support for her if you are scared of her? I'm not suggesting that you be an emotional tampon - I'm telling you that your timid behavior amplifies her anxiety. She needs you to man up and grow a spine. You can be polite about it. You can be considerate. But you can't walk on eggshells. If that's what it takes to be married to this woman, then you shouldn't be married to this woman.
 
Read and apply NMMNG and WISNIFG.

[–]jacktenofheartsRed Beret14 points15 points  (13 children) | Copy

"walking on eggshells" is the key broken mental model here.

OP may have cosmetically said some of the right things. If we read a literal transcript we might have concluded, OK, made some mistakes, but didn't totally cave.

But if we watched a video of this, I suspect we'd call collectively think, Holy shit. He is terrified of her emotions. He feels compelled to respond to her extreme motions - contempt for him, self-loathing for herself, whatever. It's like he's worried she's going to immolate at any second and every word coming out if his mouth is doing whatever he can to douse the flames.

Look, for OP or anyone else who struggles dealing with Compliance Tests because of boundary issues, consider this model. You are a manager, your subordinate asks for a day off. By proxy, that day off means you'd have to cover his responsibilities.

On that given day, you have a lot of other deliverables due for work. So you can't grant him the day off and cover for him. And you'd tell him as much.

So your subordinate sighs and sulks off. For the rest of his day he's snarky and passive-aggressive. I sent the email, SIR. Anything else you need, SIR?

Your probably be like, WTF, right? What the hell is wrong with this guy? Denied a single day off, and he loses his shit like this?

Depending on your management style, there are several ways you could handle this. Ignore his whining, maybe he's just having a bad day - because of things that have nothing to do with you. Maybe you close your office door for the rest of the day because you don't feel like dealing with his whining. Maybe in response to snarky comments you say, "why don't you take a minute to figure out what's really bothering you, because I'm pretty sure it has nothing to with me."

It almost doesn't matter. The foundation of your frame here is... Well, you reacted entirely reasonably. Request was made, request could not be accommodated, so be it. You would almost definitely NOT be thinking, oh man, my employee is really upset. I don't think I did anything wrong but I should listen to his feelings. I don't like having upset employees. My employee said he reacts poorly to managers that don't seem to care about him. Maybe he thought denying his day off means I don't value his work. I should pulling him into a meeting, let's hash this out.

Would you do that? No, that's fucking insane to do in the workplace, That's totally enabling unprofessional behavior. But you wouldn't respond harshly either, would you? You wouldn't run out to your subordinate's desk and say, "I hate that you're sulking around. It's pissing me off and it needs to stop. I do 10x the work for this team than you and you don't even care. Deny one day off and you lose your shit. It's fucking bullshit. I want to fire you." That's also unprofessional. You wouldn't do that.


Let me clear. Despite what you may think, your wife does not like getting worked up about this, then seeing you get worked up. She's self-aware enough to realize this is shitty behavior on her part, but she sort of hates you for enabling it. Seeing the emotional exhaustion on your face fills her with shame, which she hates. But the only way to avoid that, she thinks, is to quash her emotions entirely. Which she thinks is impossible, and that's why she hates you. I hate that expressing my emotions does this to him, but I hate that apparently the only way I can stop doing this is to stop expressing my emotions.

This is the core premise of the Shitty Comfort Tests. If you draw a hard boundary and tell her to go fuck herself, she'll hate you for that, since clearly your aggressive response means you think her emotions are so out of line that she shouldn't have them. Does my husband even give a shit about me? Or does he just use my hysterics as an excuse to shut down however I feel about things as quickly as possible?

But if you immediately surrender and placate her anxiety, she hates this too. Man, he doesn't even understand why I'm so upset. He just sees me upset and falls all over himself to apologize. He doesn't even know what he's apologizing for and why I'm even acting this way. Does my husband even give a shit about me? Or does he just use my hysterics as an excuse to shut down however I feel about things as quickly as possible?

Why we almost always suggest you play it stoic, straight, and narrow, because "fuck you, bitch, you're out of line" versus "OMG I'm so sorry whatever I did, I'm sorry," essentially earns you the same contempt from your wife either way.

When your stoic in the face of a hysterical wife, there is no shame. When you tell someone, "take a minute, start over, because whatever you want to communicate, it's not working," there is no shame. You're not tolerating their shitty communication, but you're not invalidating their feelings either. It projects a strong boundary but also an empathetic mindset. This is what your wife wants. This is what everyone fucking wants, to be honest. Someone who won't judge your feelings or act terrified of them, but also won't tolerate your bullshit if you even try to project your bullshit on to him.

This is the man your wife wants.

Are you that man?

[–]PersaeusRed Beret0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Thank you Jack for this explanation of a Shitty Comfort Test. While I have made great progress in my frame, I have continued to struggle with the question of "how exactly did I move from a guy that had IDGAF locked down" to wanting to chemically castrate myself six months ago. While I have figured out of a lot of the "how"; my epic failure in shit test (i.e. nuke em' all) transitioning to failing "Shitty Comfort Test" fills in the missing link.

[–]rocknrollchuck0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Wow, dude. This is what I needed today. Another blind spot of mine revealed in crystal clarity.

[–]BigAjax0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Stumbled across this while tracking down some old posts and am really glad I did. This is one of the most useful, insightful things I've come across about relationships, anywhere. That last full paragraph is fucking brilliant and it's been running through my head all day. It helps me see what the good alternative is to my usual asshole-alpha response to my wife's histrionics. I was so blind (probably borderline 'sperg) that all I knew was that I hated the idea of placating her and apologizing for shit I had nothing to do with, and that she wasn't making any fucking sense with all her emotions vomiting out all over the place. Since I couldn't grok that shit when I took it at face value, I basically shut her down cold. That could be either just silently staring at her with contempt and disgust or telling her to shut the fuck up with that nonsense. All of that left her shitty emotions - which clearly are an ongoing problem for her - still there and piled on top of them that she felt like I totally invalidated what she was feeling.

I hate to seem like one of those guys who has a eureka moment and thinks the magical solution to all his problems has just been laid at his feet. But this one thing really resonates with my situation and I can see lots of instances in which I've fucked things up sideways that tie back to this. There are other things I need to do to unfuck myself, but this strikes me as being at the top of the list. You've offered a way of productively dealing with something that I regularly confront and fuck up. This gives me a concrete model of what being an oak in the storm is like. Thank you.

[–]ornerycrank[S] 0 points1 point  (9 children) | Copy

You're absolutely right. I'm terrified of her emotions. The kids are terrified of them. She's lost friends because of them. My mother has commented on them when she's come to visit. My conciliatory, comforting approach clearly doesn't work. I'm realizing I can't save her or heal her - her mental health is her own - but I can save and better myself. I'm hoping that will be help her. I'm working on it and I recognize that this is going to take a long time as I have to overwrite 39 years of programming.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (5 children) | Copy

you are such a fucking cuntbag pussy mc-getfuckedintheass-ersen.

the only reason your wife is a cunt is because you fail at being a man.

that's the end of the entire story. your quibbles, trivialities, whining, victim complex, blah blah blah all boils down to the fact that you are one gigantic undouched pussy.

you are literally less valuable than the sharts that your wife makes on her granny panties. she puts in the effort to wash and cleans them because at least she has a use for them. you? who the fuck are you and what value do you bring to the table? my guess, no and jack diddly squat.

men like you are the type of people who's wives go and fuck someone else and then you'll cry about how you're a victim. you are a product of the environment you create -- welcome to your creation. your complete lack of personal responsibility coupled with your victim mentality and your laziness is disgusting. if i were your reflection in the mirror, i'd look away in shame.

[–]ornerycrank[S] 0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy

Oh my god you're so mean to me! I'm just going to go cry and cry and cry because some stranger was mean to me on the Internet. My precious widdle fee fees are so hurt I'm just going to run back to my shrew of a wife, beg her forgiveness for showing a tiny bit of spine and cry on her chest. Maybe if I'm lucky she'll let me suck on a titty like a baby.

[–]BluepillProfessorMod / Red Beret3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy

Credit for passing a shit test from some guy on the net. Now start passing them with your woman.

You have got this.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

why not? It's what you did to your wife.

If only you could AA and hold frame IRL as well as on the internet

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (1 child) | Copy

The fakeness is too obvious.

[–]alphabeta49Red Beret0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

He's new, give him a few tries.

[–]BossLaidee-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy

Your wife likely has BPD.

[–]sexyshoulderdevil75% Liquid Sarcasm6 points7 points  (27 children) | Copy

Yup, he lost any spine he had early on. She also happens to be a smart woman (law degree) and is eating him alive...

https://www.reddit.com/r/DeadBedrooms/comments/49pdqc/letting_my_bedroom_die_and_maybe_also_my_marriage/

Keep reading OP. Have fun with all this. You're going to learn how to be playful and strong. She's the smart little girl on the playground who wants her pigtails pulled. But not by you...not in your current form. Time to rebuild mind and body and come back stronger. It will take time.

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (2 children) | Copy

Damn JDs. They're the worst, the lot of them. I read this too. It's like watching someone go over Niagra Falls.

[–]sexyshoulderdevil75% Liquid Sarcasm2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy

Nah, the smart ones are fun. You just have to be faster...then they get giddy when they know they can't keep up. ;-)

[–]alphabeta49Red Beret0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

u/bluepillprofessor should be able to comment on that

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (23 children) | Copy

Hopefully OP's starting to realize that the bedroom is dead because the relationship is dysfunctional, and not the other way around.
 
Theater is a red flag for me personally - highly skilled actors are very hard to deal with. The most basic things that drive them - their instincts and motivations - are very hard to pin down. I don't know if it's training or an underlying characteristic that leads them to theater in the first place, but you have to be solid as a rock to weather the storm of emotion coming from a skilled actor. They are very adept at telling you what you want to hear and dominating an interaction. Add some guilt trips and gaslighting and you've got to be a zen master to keep up. 0/10 would not marry.

[–]jacktenofheartsRed Beret7 points8 points  (19 children) | Copy

This is true of anyone's profession whose job it is to basically evoke emotion and influence thought.

Even more intense is someone who does this via physical performance.

This is roughly my career. But my performance is mostly things like client pitches. I'm not entertaining the public at large.

Dating a writer meant someone that was articulate, but was too untrained in 'manipulating' things in physical interactions. So my go-to response was usually some version of, look, that sounded really convincing, but I'm pretty sure you don't think it's true.

Dating a performer who didn't generally create their performance material - like the many E-list actresses I hung out with in the early 2000s - was the opposite. Incredibly convincing displays of emotion, but with no coherence. Look, I can tell you're upset, but literally nothing coming out of your mouth makes any sense.

This is why theater girls were scary. Roles of writing and performing are much more fluid. Imagine someone can that throw a Shitty Comfort Test at you, but can immediately toggle her reaction based on your initial approach. Think it's a Shit Test, and you get an extended soliloquy about how all she wanted was some considerate empathy that apparently you're not capable of. Think it's a Comfort Test, and you get an angry backlash that emphasizes just how dense you are to even think this is anything but your fault.

As long as you don't have kids and aren't married though, it's sort of dysfunctionally fun. At some point you realize how much they LOVE you, because they love to develop narratives and perform them, and you're strong enough to tolerate them performing all the time in their personal life. With you, they get to "perform" 24 hours a day now, not just at their profession. That's a supply of addictive drugs that very few men can offer them.

So your relationship becomes "Who's Line Is It Anyway?" and you're Wayne Brady. Oh, I get to be the Inconsiderate Jock this time. Cool, I've actually wanted to play that role since high school! OK, so I'll just STFU, roll my eyes, and act like I give even less of a shit than she thinks I does. Then I'll get her a bag of skittles tomorrow and we'll have great makeup sex. I'm gonna nail this.

Oh, now I'm the Omnipresent Suffocating Boyfriend. OK, got it, I'm a pro at this. In this role, I'll just hurtfully withdraw with a resignation that I can't give her what she wants. Then she'll surely realize my desire to hang out with her was just because I liked spending time with her, and she'll confess that she's only mad at me because of how deep our relationship is, and it's scary.

This is fun until you start hanging out with your friends, because they will think you are batshit insane, that you think a relationship where you don't have a relatively consistent personality and identity isn't deeply unhealthy. They'll see you have a fight with her in public and see you 'win.'

And you'll say, "see guys, I know how to handle her."

And then they'll say, "Yeah, but don't you hate having to act like that all the time? Isn't it exhausting always having to get the upper hand in her manufactured drama?"

And then you get a really drunk to chase away thoughts that you're just chasing validation from a woman yet again, and that being a codependent bitch who inverted the power dynamics in a relationship to a narcissist... Still means you're a codependent bitch.

We laughed when we watched Wayne Brady on the Chapelle Show, threatening to choke a bitch. But I didn't laugh. I cried, tears of joy. Be real, Wayne. Be real. Nothing else matters. Then I took a sip from my Samuel Jackson's beer. I knew it'd get me drunk.

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (13 children) | Copy

It's a fucking shame that this got buried by whoever downvoted sexyshoulderdevil. This is step two for OP.
 

being a codependent bitch who inverted the power dynamics in a relationship to a narcissist... Still means you're a codependent bitch.

My wife broke that dynamic with her mother yesterday - less than 12 hours ago. You're right that inverting the power dynamic isn't enough.
 
The big question is whether OP is going to get there. The top post from cj_aubrey is a reasonable approach to inverting the power dynamic. It's standard MRP fare. It's a good start, but that won't be enough for OP to shed his codependency.
 
 
Edit:
This part:

As long as you don't have kids and aren't married though, it's sort of dysfunctionally fun. At some point you realize how much they LOVE you, because they love to develop narratives and perform them, and you're strong enough to tolerate them performing all the time in their personal life. With you, they get to "perform" 24 hours a day now, not just at their profession. That's a supply of addictive drugs that very few men can offer them.

has PUA written all over it. Girls like that are a supply of addictive drugs for the guy, too.

[–]jacktenofheartsRed Beret14 points15 points  (12 children) | Copy

It's a fucking shame that this got buried by whoever downvoted sexyshoulderdevil

Well, you're probably going to think what I'm about to write is an even bigger shame, because you've prompted me to organize some thoughts that have been floating around in my mind incoherently, until just now.

EDIT: I've heard "you should turn this comment into a post" every so often, but I think I may actually do that this time.


I do think all men in this position need to, essentially, invert the power dynamic to destroy it.

Whatever "score" your wife is keeping in her frame, you're always going to be losing. So the first step is to stop operating in her frame, and that's tough, and typically manifests as adversarial encounters just like OP described. So that's Phase 1.

The problem is sometimes that "score" has some validity to reality. If you're operating in your wife's frame, you have to do some thinking about whether the "98 to -5,200" numbers on her scoreboard would reflect an actual scoreboard. Sometimes, the wife is just an anxious mental wreck and her husband is essentially being gaslit. "Say no, then STFU and ignore her" his wife's hysterics have no basis in reality.

But this is not trivial if her hysterical reactions are based in reality. This is where we see problems manifest with our proverbial man-children. Their wives don't respect them because they're whiny, entitled, lazy, and irresponsible -- but at least they don't assert their own boundaries, so the wife manages the marriage in a way to mitigate the aforementioned whiny/entitled/laziness, similar to how she'd treat a rambunctious toddler in a kindergarten class. No Johnny, you can't just take Tommy's toy from him. Here, go in the corner and play with these fingerpaints. So yeah, no wonder these guys think their wives are being condescending bitches, even though they basically deserve it.

Then they read some Red Pill content and start throwing around ill-deserved boundaries all over the place. They announce they'll play with Tommy's toy whenever they fucking want, and if their wife doesn't like it, she can go fuck herself. This doesn't come across as a strong statement of boundaries, but just a whiny and entitled loser sounding even more whiny and entitled, and his wife responds accordingly. One huge fight later they're on MRP, posting something with the title of, Kicked out of Kindergarten Class Failed a Shit Test, Wife Mentioned Divorce.


So that's Phase 1, "Stop Operating in Her Frame." But it requires two broad approaches that are pretty different.

Once you show you're strong enough to stop operating in her frame, to show you don't give a shit about whatever scorekeeping she's doing, then you'll earn her respect. She may not want to fuck you just yet, but she'll like you. That's when you've reached Phase 2, "Build Your Own Frame."

Transitioning from Phase 1 to Phase 2 sometimes requires a Main Event. A point where you essentially communicate: Look, if you expect me to keep operating in your frame, that's not happening. If you want to divorce over that, so be it.

But some guys already start at Phase 2, or close enough. So the aforementioned "Phase 1 Approach" -- set hard boundaries, ignore or deflect her inevitable Shit Tests, aggressively show you'll no longer tolerate her demands of supplicating behavior -- is destructive more than anything. These are the posts that are some version of: my wife raised a mostly reasonable complaint, I told her to shut the fuck up and left the house and went to the gym for four hours, should I also legally change my name or is this enough Dread?

And some commenters who had serious Phase 1 struggles go: YEAH WAY TO STOP HER ATTEMPT TO MAKE HER YOUR BETA BITCH DOWN COLD, but that wasn't really the problem. The dude is already in Phase 2. And if you're taking a Phase 1 approach in Phase 2, all you're doing is setting your marriage back to a Phase 1 relationship. Your wife didn't want to fuck you or follow your lead, but she liked you. Now she doesn't even like you. And those are actually the posts where I feel most compelled to write several thousand words describing why not everything coming out of your wife's mouth requires an aggressive counter-response, and is often just anxiety over the behavior you're expressing while building your own frame in Phase 2.

Because the next step is becoming strong enough, attractive enough, and appealing enough for her to operate in your frame. This usually manifests as increased sexual frequency and enthusiasm, but also manifests as more enthusiasm and enjoyment in general. You and your wife work hard, and play hard, and sometimes that play is mutually desirable and enjoyable sex. That's when you're at Phase 3, where "Your Wife is Operating In Your Frame."


Phase 3 may never happen, and it can be frustrating when it doesn't, or if it takes a very long time. But that's another reason why these "acting with Phase 1 intensity in Phase 2" behavior is damaging. Because that usually means the frame you're trying to construct to transition to Phase 3, ends up introducing your own form of scorekeeping.

It manifests as an obsession MRP where those men constantly ask questions like:

  • Did she fuck me all the times I initiated this week?
  • If not, was it because she was on her period?
  • If so, was it enthusiastic, or just starfish maintenance?
  • Did she comply with my requests of her?
  • Did she get pissed when I didn't comply with her requests of me?
  • Should I do this nice thing she wants because I did that nice thing she wants?

Your marriage can reach the point where you get the answers you want to those questions ("yes", "n/a", "the former", "yes", "no", "probably"), but you never really reach Phase 3. You inverted the power dynamics, but you still operate in power dynamics, so your marriage never really reaches that virtuous cycle of both spouses adding value to each others' lives, and that happening frequently enough that keeping score is unnecessary.

I assume this is the ideal frame for most men here. Because otherwise, all you're donig is replacing her frame that had shitty scorekeeping, with your frame that has somewhat-less-but-still-mostly-shitty scorekeeping.

And this is also what compels me to offer a long drawn out deconstruction of why, for example, if you're enjoying watching a TV show with your wife, and then you get frisky but she turns you down for sex, maybe abruptly launching yourself off the couch and pretending it's totally normal to "go to the gym" at 10:45pm, in the middle of a "House of Cards" episode, and claiming I understand Outcome Independence, so I wasn't even upset... is literally retarded.

Because if you already started in Phase 2, chances are your wife was already emotionally well-adjusted and all that behavior will do is result in her NOT fucking you.

And if you started in Phase 1, then your wife WILL fuck you, but only because you've replaced her dynamics that had previously made you feel like an anxiety-ridden self-loathing wreck, into a new dynamic that makes her feel like an anxiety-ridden self-loathing wreck. Then they're back here on MRP asking why they still feel contempt for their wives, even though they now have sex as frequently as they want. Well, yeah, no shit.

Your wife's being stupid enough to fall for your bullshit, and you actually hate her for it.

Similar to how YOU were stupid enough to fall for YOUR WIFE's bullshit, and SHE actually hated YOU for it!


See, you don't "win at Red Pill" when this happens.

You only win when your wife enters your frame, looks around, and asks, Wait, where's the scoreboard?

And you say, Oh, was hoping you'd show up. Funny you mention that, it's in the back.

And then she says, Wait, why isn't it on? It just says 'PC LOAD LETTER.' What the fuck does that mean?

And that's when you reply...

Hmm. Must be broken. I know how we can fix it, though.

[–]sexyshoulderdevil75% Liquid Sarcasm4 points5 points  (3 children) | Copy

First, this is really interesting. Second, I have but a feeble brain so I attempted to bullet point your thoughts to see if I understand it:

Phase 1: Stop Operating in Her Frame

Two types of men: Type 1: Beta Provider: Start saying "No" Type 2: Beta Man Child: Start owning your shit THEN start saying "No"

  • Phase 1 often concludes with Main Event

Phase 2: Build Your Frame

  • Prerequisites: 1. Respect from wife 2. Wife likes you
  • Relax Phase 1 hardline "no" mentality.
  • Instead practice using agree and amplify along with amused mastery. Read Book of Pook and learn playful alpha mentality.
  • Play hard (sex) and work hard. Together.

Phase 3: Marriage is in Your Frame - The destruction of power dynamics - Recognition that you are responsible for your own happiness. Therefore, keeping score becomes irrelevant. True Outcome Independence.

[–]BluepillProfessorMod / Red Beret0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

Somebody needs to make this an original post, linking this and the Dread post with your summary.

[–]sexyshoulderdevil75% Liquid Sarcasm0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

I agree.

The other day I was thinking of putting something together and PMing Jack to see if he had changes...since this was his concept. Then I could post it giving him credit.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy

Good post. I don't think phase 3 is ideal at all. You described phase 4 (imo), which is "My life will be awesome because I am the creator of my reality."

All the meta-questioning, nagging, and manifestations of an individuals insecurities disappears into the realization and freedom of knowing that every step in your journey through life is a decision you alone control and you alone make.

We alone are at the center of our own universes and at the center of our own stories. Everyone else is a player in our game - and their existence, by definition of reality, is limited in scope and scale.

Get to the meta/zen - and none of those trivialities and score keeping matter. One of my earliest mantra - "Be Happy." Almost nothing really matters in life. why you heff to be med

[–]sexyshoulderdevil75% Liquid Sarcasm2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

I really hope you make this into a post. Unless I've missed it around here, I don't believe there is a Phases of MRP. Your Phases is almost like the Stages of Grief and serves to categorize how best to deal with a guy based on their current stage and/or starting point. You've begun the creation of a method to objectively organize it all. (Edit: Stages of Dread of course but they seem like action steps vs categorization)

I really enjoyed this and it's still rolling around in my head. Thank you.

I updated my other response after reading what WMP wrote.

[–]alphabeta49Red Beret2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

Make. The. Post.

[–]PersaeusRed Beret1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Would really to see full post

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

Wait, where's the scoreboard?

My wife's comment to me last night about her mother was, "All these years she's been keeping score of every time she changed my diaper, every time I made her angry, and I can never catch up. Keeping score like that in a relationship is fucking retarded!"
 
I couldn't agree more.

[–]jacktenofheartsRed Beret2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy

Man, you want to go down the well a bit, think about how your wife must have resented people that "kept score" in their relationship because of her formative experiences.

Then recall her initially negative reaction to you when you communicated that, essentially, your marriage was only as good as how you both 'stepped up your game.'

Cant imagine this wasn't tied together. Wait, so if you step up and I don't, there are consequences? I still need to match my effort and value to yours, because you won't just do that unconditionally?

THIS SOUNDS A LOT LIKE KEEPING SCORE TO ME AND I DON'T LIKE IT.

The material difference is you weren't keeping score, and certainly not as a weapon, where you inflated your value and diminished hers for the purpose of some narcissistic power dynamics. Your wife's catharsis about her mother may have been triggered by this. You've shown her a virtuous way to contribute and receive value in a relationship with someone else. Heretofore she accepted her mother's behavior because the only models she had were "toxic scorekeeping" or "naive unconditional love."

Any merit to that? If so, bet you're not the only guy with a marriage that these ideas could apply to.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Have to approached your writing differently lately? I'm liking the levity peppered around the main point.

Like Fat Albert:

be careful, you might end up learning something!

[–]BluepillProfessorMod / Red Beret0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Jeez, will you put this together into a book already! At least explain your phases in a full post. It looks like you took the best of Rollo on Frame and that you are really onto something.

[–]sexyshoulderdevil75% Liquid Sarcasm3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy

I feel like you went on a journey and we were flies that happened to jump in when you opened the car door. It was fun.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

I would have (almost) bet my life it was Madison Avenue but west coast. It's the creating of emblems you do.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Thanks for the ending.)

[–]ornerycrank[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

She's tough for me to deal with because she's got theatre training, legal training, she's a brilliant writer and a skillful, fast speaker. I literally cannot keep up. Add in an age differential (she's 6 years older) and a maturity imbalance when we started dating (I was 21, she 27) and I don't think I had any hope of ever keeping my spine - it wasn't ever fully grown before I met her. I never had boundary issues with prior girlfriends. I also moved away from home to go to graduate school and be with her so I lost my social and familial support. I actually thought of breaking up with her in the second or third year we were together but the thought of being alone and 1500 miles from all I knew and loved were very frightening. Nice Guys like me let fear rule their lives and it sucks. I'm sick and tired of being afraid.

[–]jacktenofheartsRed Beret2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

I actually thought of breaking up with her in the second or third year we were together but the thought of being alone and 1500 miles from all I knew and loved were very frightening.

So that moment where you considered this, what was 15 years ago, right? Well, I have no qualms predicting there is a 100% chance that if you divorced, you would still consider yourself to be "alone."

Did you ever rebuild a new network of social support in the following years?

Say you were going through a divorce, you're feeling bummed, think catching up with a friend would make you feel better. Who's the first guy you call?

Who's the sixth guy you call? Do you even have a friend list six-deep for something like this?

I'm sick and tired of being afraid.

So you gonna build your own social network so the alternative to life without wife doesn't seem to scary and dire? And do you see, paradoxically, that social network will make it more likely your marriage avoids that fate?

[–]sexyshoulderdevil75% Liquid Sarcasm2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

Huh, interesting note on theater. I'll have to pay more attention to that.

[–]ornerycrank[S] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

Yes, I've realized that our bedroom issues are a consequence of our bigger communication/relationship issues. I don't really hold out any hope that bettering myself will fix those problems between us. If they don't, I expect that becoming a strong, independent man will give me the strength to leave her.

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy

Yes, I've realized that our bedroom issues are a consequence of our bigger communication/relationship issues. I don't really hold out any hope that bettering myself will fix those problems between us. If they don't, I expect that becoming a strong, independent man will give me the strength to leave her.

Luckily, none of these problems are hers, they are all yours. And also luckily, the man you are now is in no position to either understand, or decide whether she's quality or not. Since you have so little faith in your ability to be a man, liks a homeless guy in the street. Because you don't have ovaries, people will kick you while you're down, regardless of how well thought out your sign is

[–]sexyshoulderdevil75% Liquid Sarcasm5 points6 points  (2 children) | Copy

I knew he wouldn't know what that meant. Was hoping all of it would spurn him to go hunting.

The guy's wife yesterday who fucked the cop sounded like a disaster. The dude was also a disaster but his wife sounded like a nightmare of a woman even before he dropped the bipolar bomb.

This guy's wife sounds like she's depressed from having a wet noodle of a husband for so long. She of course doesn't realize this. If he can execute some MRP and become the oak, I have a feeling a lot of her anxiety will dissipate. I haven't read his post history though.

[–]ornerycrank[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

I'm realizing my passivity and agreeableness isn't helping anything. It's really ironic that being such a "good" helper has actually hurt myself, her and our relationship. I take responsibility for this and am working hard to better myself and break this mold.

That said, depression runs in her family (her mother is constantly medicated for depression and anxiety, her grandfather was depressed, her father and brother are depressed, there's suicide back in the family history as well) so it's hard to say how much my weakness has contributed. It certainly hasn't helped any, that much is obvious.

[–]sexyshoulderdevil75% Liquid Sarcasm0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Work on you. Should you decide to stay with her, utilize your new found frame to have her get "real" therapy if she isn't already. Be prepared to leave if she doesn't comply. This will be a marathon not a sprint.

[–]ornerycrank[S] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

Thank you. I'm working on the spine. Bone takes some time and effort to form. I finished reading NMMNG this week and am still working on the exercises. I have WISNIFG and will read that over the next several days. I'm sick of walking on eggshells around her and dealing with her overly sensitive and reactive emotions. It's hard for me because it's going against a lifetime of conditioning coupled with my natural tendencies.

ETA: while she hasn't been diagnosed with any mental issues I strongly suspect she has some. Depression runs in her family (mother, brother, father, grandfather, uncle), her mother is medicated for depression and anxiety. It wouldn't surprise me if she has some issue in the Cluster B personality disorders - she seems like a combination of depression, narcissism and histrionics. She was in talk therapy a few years ago but she seemed to mostly charm the therapist. She comes across as completely healthy to most people. She's highly intelligent, articulate and has excellent social skills. She also has no interest in addressing her issues. She quit therapy after a few months because she felt better - and was better, in many ways, from what she had been. At this point in time though we cannot afford to send her back to therapy.

[–]BossLaidee0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Oh good I'm glad you mentioned Cluster B. She doesn't seem able to regulate her emotions.. It doesn't make her a bad person, it just means she needs to re-learn how to comfort herself. Her parents probably didn't meet that need when she was young.

It sounds like she recognizes she has a problem. Read some books about narcissism and BPD (which really should be called Emotional Dysregulation Disorder). Find some resources for yourself to see how you play into it (read about "co-narcissism" or search for Reddit subs where partners of people with personality disorders can talk). When you feel comfortable, address it with her and see how willing she is to take responsibility for improving herself.

[–]bogeyd6Mod / Red Militia2 points3 points  (7 children) | Copy

Damn son, you hit the nail on the head.

[–]sexyshoulderdevil75% Liquid Sarcasm1 point2 points  (6 children) | Copy

Wait, you and I concluded the other day that listening to me was a mistake... Let's see what havoc we can wreak with this misinformation.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (5 children) | Copy

That's why bogeyd6 was so surprised!

[–]sexyshoulderdevil75% Liquid Sarcasm1 point2 points  (4 children) | Copy

"Keep 'em guessing" was never one of my problems...

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy

How come you guys don't get your own post when you have a spat?

[–]sexyshoulderdevil75% Liquid Sarcasm0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

Because my spats are cute and fluffy with pink little bows on them. They even giggle when you poke their stomachs.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

It's not pink, its Salmon!

[–]sexyshoulderdevil75% Liquid Sarcasm1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

[–]ReddJiveRed Beret2 points3 points  (6 children) | Copy

This is a shit test I am all too familiar with.

Just one question: Why not answer simply no? My wife used to ask for all kinds of things. Like I was/am an extension of her will and body. It got worst. It culminated with her being in the kitchen or walking by it, sitting down on the couch next to me, then asking me to go into the kitchen to get the thing she forgot to do/get.

After a week of simple nos it's over. She asks but then quickly catches herself.

I think you gave her too much room to maneuver with your comment back. Yes, no create boundaries and it's instantly understood by all. No explaination needed. You give the same responses to your kids right? Why not her? Why not others?

Last question: Why should it ruin your evening because she can't handle her emotions? What happens when you want sex and she says no? Do you wig out...maybe you do if you do then you need to fix that.

Just saying. These are easy things to figure out. Wait until she has no clue what's going on in your head (because you aren't doing what she wants) and sits quietly for hours next to you watching to tv. Bliss I tell you. Pure bliss.

[–]ornerycrank[S] 0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy

I thought about saying No in that moment - and just the thought of it made me feel intensely guilty. I clearly need WISNIFG because I'm not yet equipped to handle those kind of interactions. I'm starting it tomorrow. I'm still working through the exercises in NMMNG. This is going to take time.

[–]ReddJiveRed Beret1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy

While I'm right there with you in the trenches...

The only advice I can tell you is that whether you read the books once, twice or not at all at some point you have to do it.

Just rip the band aid off. What's the worst that's going to happen? I'd be willing to bet you've already seen that.

[–]ornerycrank[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

Yeah, I tried to do that last night but chickened out. Typical. I'll be reading the books over and over until it's completely internalized. I'm dreading the pain of ripping that bandaid off - but it's going to be better than dying.

[–]ReddJiveRed Beret1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Right there, brother. You need stop dwelling on the negative.

Dread

Pain.

Dying

No. This is living. Own the fact you've already made this choice. Get tunnel vision for it. There is no pain. There is no anger. There is no fear. I mean you already had an argument over stupid shit. You knew this going in. What's more is you knew this was the wrong response.

You're bound to have another so fuck it.

Why not handle it the way you want or know how to.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

you must think very little of her, where having to get her own water would break her

[–]rocknrollchuck0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Take good notes on both books as you read them. Makes it much easier to refresh yourself on them later, because you will want to do that at some point.

[–]xjedimindx[🍰] 3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy

How about a simple no and some outcome independence?

[–]its-iceman3 points4 points  (4 children) | Copy

She cries everyday? She's depressed for sure.

You need to practice outcome independence. When she stomps back in with her water that you wouldn't get her, you asshole, you shrug, turn on the show, and invite her to come watch.

Lead. Don't chase her feelings.

[–]ornerycrank[S] 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy

Most of her crying is tearing up over touching things but she has probably a good 10-15 days each month where she's an emotional basket-case and wishing she were dead/gone/never born and feels hopeless/like a failure/only makes mistakes. It's exhausting and draining the life out of me.

[–]its-iceman1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy

Having a strong captain will help with some of that. Most of that sounds like she's depressed though and she needs to figure out what the fuck is going on. Is she working out or exercising? It's the best antidepressant on the market.

[–]ornerycrank[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

She lost a lot of weight a few years ago with a careful diet and running. She ran a half marathon last year though due to a knee problem she walked a lot of it. Also because of the knee problem she mostly stopped running after that and also let her diet go so she put back on a third of what she lost. Anyway all the exercise she gets now is walking though she's making noise about doing more.

[–]its-iceman1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Maybe someday they'll invent exercises people with a bad knee can do.

[–]cholomiteMod / BP Downvote Magnet2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

She tried to get you to serve her because you're a beta bitch in her mind. You shut her down but there was a hint of beta in your response and she sniffed it out immediately. Next time just say "no", don't explain that you're laying down, or busy or whatever. That was the part that told her that you're a beta in alphas clothes and to press you further to verify that you are in fact the beta she believes you are.

Her beliefs were confirmed when you engaged her in an argument and fell headfirst back into her frame, right where she wants you. This had nothing to do with water, or her working too hard or not hard enough or any other random shit she brought up. This was only about you changing her perception of you, her not being in agreement with that, so she engaged in an activity that would put you back in your place, even of she cries and shouts throughout.

She believes you're a beta, you showed a flash of alpha and she had to run some follow up tests to verify in her mind exactly what kind of man you are. Next time smile and STFU after you kindly tell her "no". Have confidence in yourself to not have to justify your actions. Betas explain themselves, alphas know they are right and don't give a fuck.

[–]exbp2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

asked me to get her some water. I told her I was lying down - mentally I was trying to set a little tiny boundary

Good start. Never do anything that she can't do herself, unless you're specifically rewarding good behavior.

I told her I heard her but that I just hadn't gotten up yet

This is the point of failure. You're explaining your lack of servitude, which to her means it's an issue worthy of discussion.

You don't even care that I'm crying!

She's ruled by her emotions. When you respond to her emotions (just like her shit tests) you acknowledge they are worthy of your attention. Everything after was her emotions jumping about.

She texted me: "I'm sorry I fucked everything up again.

Eventually she realizes her emotions are not founded in reality and is ashamed of them. Your job is to get her back to logic quicker by not allowing them to spiral out of control. Notice also that she texts it, to avoid confrontation.

All this, because I didn't get her some stupid fucking water.

Bzzzrrrttt! All of this because you didn't recognize her shit test and confront it with humor, silence, or agree & amplify.

I'm really anxious because I haven't heard from her yet today.

Ahhh, the root of the problem. Stop orbiting her. She's not special or magical. You should have hobbies and work keeping you so busy you don't have time for her nonsense. She will see when you have a life apart from her. Be ready for her to try to pull you back into orbit.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy

This post bugs the hell out of me and I've only read the title.

Had a fight last night. Help me parse it.

Why should I?

  1. Why do I give a fuck about you? I don't.

  2. What value you are you offering in return for the time and effort I'd put in? What's your value add? There is none offered from what I can tell.

So, why should I go out of my way to spend time and energy I can't get back on your bullshit?

For the record, and this may come as a surprise to many of you, I hate entitled attitudes (you don't deserve shit), laziness (put in your own work), and "playing the victim" (boo hoo hoo, no one cares). From the title, I'm guessing this post will have all three.

Edit: Yup. It has all three. And reminded me I forgot item number 4 - which is, "wasting my time reading total bullshit". I read the post and I don't believe a single word of it. It's written in a manner in which OP wants to believe what he's writing, but it's complete superficial bullshit of OP lying to himself. There is no honesty in the post. I bet OP was annoyed as hell that his woman was AWALT.

Hey, op, you're a faggot. You say you're new? There's an entire sidebar at your disposal - a sidebar which you have clearly not done shit with.

New to Married Red Pill and struggling? Self-diagnose here before posting: MRP Guide for Beginners

You are such a faggot.

And I can't believe the rest of you guys are just offering free handouts to the lazy and entitled. What happened to "sidebar" for posts like these?

What it comes down to is this, when you invest in you, I'll start thinking about investing in you too. That's me. Lots of guys are more charitable than me here. But if I'm investing in you, it's because you're going to succeed.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Yup. It's not even 3 days after the last bozo burned people who tried to help out of charity

[–]BluepillProfessorMod / Red Beret1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

When she came back we fought.

Compliance test passed. Shit test failed. Overall selection process for your wife? That, bro, was a mega fail from your description of this woman.

Stop worrying about her mood and stop letting it affect you. She wants a firm ROCK to cling to during the storms, not the slimy, crumbling edifice you are showing.

Have you at least read the 16 commandments of Poon? Also, obviously, you need to read and study NMMNG and WISNIFG and I would get to the book of Pook sooner rather than later.

[–]PurpleVeteranRed Beret1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy

Anyway, her anger was waning by that point and shifting, as it always does, into her feeling depressed, helpless, useless and like a failure. She wished she'd never been born, stressed about how shitty she's going to look today after crying so much, how tired she was going to be since the fight went past her bedtime, etc, etc.

Others are asking about depression, but this sounds like classic narcissist shit. She had her melt down, and then segues into tears and self-pity. Not only do you have to be wrong for standing up, you have to kiss her ass to make her feel better.

After about an hour of all this she'd finally calmed down enough that we could reconnect somewhat and she went to bed. She texted me: "I'm sorry I fucked everything up again. Like always. And I'm sorry that I don't work as hard as you do and that I cry all the time. I will try to fix it."

Yeah, even more passive-aggressive posing. This isn't a shit test or a comfort test that you can just AA/AM/maintain frame -- she's already established how badly you treat her and what a terrible person she is.

Also, shit. I'm really anxious because I haven't heard from her yet today. I'm fucking worrying about her mood (she's probably going to be in a bad mood all day) because she hasn't sent me any texts.

And you've basically accepted that when you push back at her a bit, you're in for 24 hours of shit.

I wish I had some prescriptive advice, but you're gonna need some jackten-level analysis, because NMMNG and "maintain frame" isn't gonna cut it.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

She She she.

do you think OP is anywhere near where he can be worried about leading her into not being a psycho?

OP...

[–]ornerycrank[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

She's a lovely cocktail of depression, narcissism and histrionics. She wields her emotions like a battering ram and she's always ready for a fight. I'm sick of her shit and finally starting to man up. I'm not sure my marriage will survive this.

And yeah - she didn't send me a text all day which NEVER HAPPENS. I saw her when she showed up at church for choir (I'm the director) - but I was kind of worried that she just wouldn't show. Choir did seem to help, as did seeing our children.

[–]RPAlternate42Red Beret1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

All this, because I didn't get her some stupid fucking water.

No. It was because of you engaging when she came back angry.

I can guarantee you sounded "angry" or bothered by her request. I fucking know you did. You think you didn't, and you are trying to rationalize how you didn't, but you were and she heard it; it's probably the most truthful thing she said, "you sounded angry." Women know covert communication better than you.

Everything that follows this is a result of engaging.

I don't think you're an idiot or stupid, you're just naive. you know what the problem here is, and you should now recognize the problems in the "conversation." None of it had anything to do with water.

More importantly, none of it was necessary for you to stick around for once it started out of hand.

You always have the ability to leave the environment. Leave the room. If she follows, leave the house. If she texts/calls, ignore her.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Water, water everywhere, nor any drop to drink.

(Sorry couldn't resist, I'm weak that way)

But if you think about it, use of the tools of the MRP is already getting you across a new threshold. Good luck to you man.

PS. This group of men here are much funnier than a visit from the Ancient Mariner.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

I'm gonna come back to this after reading, so I don't get a blast of shit for marginalizing some bullshit in your post.

You aren't at a place to parse shit yet. you haven't even started lifting yet, let alone building frame, looking good, dressing well, or learning game.

Again, I'm going to source this to my 30 days of shit tests posts. If something doesn't directly benefit you when she speaks, turn your head to the side and chuckle, then carry on. do it 100 times and get ready to post in my followup post.


Post read:

Lol! You walked right into that one you dope. See above

[–]spexer0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

All this, because I didn't get her some stupid fucking water. It ruined both our evenings (after what had been a really nice day). Can I expect this kind of behavior from her every time I try to display the least bit of spine? Do you think a different reaction from me could have steered the fight in a different direction? Or should I just have gotten her the fucking water? I'm 100% confident the fight wouldn't have happened if I had.

If you are looking for the easiest smoothest path, choke back up that red pill you tasted, and swallow the blue one again.

A well earned life does not come easy.

[–]ornerycrank[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Nope. Not going back to that weak, bluepill life. It's killing me - death by 1000 cuts. I seriously don't think I'll make it to 50 with my soul intact if I don't take care of myself and my life now. It's hanging on by a thread as it is.

[–]Boesman120 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Does this remind any one else that its not about the nail.



You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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