I just finished reading Why We Sleep by Matthew Walker. I'm not here to promote the book or anything, but I really liked it and would recommend it. With that said, that book really opened my eyes even further to the importance of sleep.
For some background, I've been pretty interested in and followed sleep science and protocols for the last 4 years or so, because I've had issues with sleeping. We all know sleep is important, for gains, and for focus, and general health, but I really think a lot of guys especially here don't realize how big it really is.
Note: this is going off memory, and won't be perfectly exact stats, but all the exact figures are available and sourced directly in that book
FINANCE
People who get 8 hours of sleep vs those who get less than 6, get 5% raises annually vs 2.5%
Naps as short as 26 minutes can improve focus by 50% according to NASA which translates well to productivity
Health
Pretty self explanatory,
Memory retention, helps prevent Alzheimers, heart disease etc.
SLUTS
Those who got deficient sleep were rated as being less attractive (compared to when they were less rested)
Insufficient sleep lowers testosterone- This is critical. Not getting enough sleep literally makes you less of a man. Less likely to get girls, more of a pussy, literally less of a man
Sleep Hygiene
No electronics in the bedroom.
No light or lowlight before bed. Avoid LEDs especially because of the strong blue light
No nicotine or alcohol before bed. Aldehyde and ketones which are by products of alcohol fuck with REM sleep which is critical for memory and other stuff. It takes a while to process those by products.
Sleep and wake up at the same time every day if possible.
Cool or even cold bedroom 65 degrees F is ideal for most.
Decompress before bed, not in bed. Take 30 minutes to read or whatever relaxes you
Hot showers before bed help, by letting you release more heat and cool your core temp which helps you sleep.
Give yourself an 8 and a half hour sleep opportunity. This means being in bed not necessarily asleep. Doesn't mean spending time on your phone
Conclusion
Wrote this in a bit of a hurry, but I got my point across. I usually like to write about getting girls, but apparently if you're not sleeping enough, you won't remember shit about what I wrote and girls are going to think you look like shit. Go to Bed bro.
PS 30 minute to 1 hour naps after lunch are natural and encouraged, and this is extra real authentic science. Check it out
Good post. No matter what the fuck is going on in my life, I never sacrifice sleep, not even for hot women. I always aim for 7 hours per night minimum and if I happen to lose 1-2 hours, I will do my best to compensate with a mid-day nap.
During summers where I have more free time, I like to take 30-min to 1-hour naps post-workout. I wake up fresh and full of energy. Highly recommended.
With that being said, I'm going to bed.
The thing is, you can't really "compensate". Basically, if you don't get your 7-9 hours of sleep every day you will have a lot of the negative affects OP said. But I guess doing naps to compensate can make those negative consequences a lil better.
Also what I'm saying is not my opinion, took it from JRE Podcast with Matthew Walker.
Anyways, I'm going to bed cya.
So very true. Once you go to sleep, you have to aim for that minimum. Kinda hard to compensate with a nap throughout the days. Especially when you would rather dedicate that time in the day to work on making some progress. In conclusion, get more sleep.
Which reminds me, I'm going to bed. Night.
It’s true that you can’t recover effectively from “sleep debt” but a nap mid-day because you got 6-7hrs is probably still very solid for your mind and body. Lots of countries around the world have siesta time; western countries are “unique” in that they press for continuous 9-5pm productivity.
It may very well be the norm that biphasic sleep cycles are the best for our bodies, and monophasic is a new cultural pressure for us to adapt to.
But sleep research is still a very new field, and its methodology to track metrics are very challenging. Getting hooked up to EEGs in a sleep lab are very resource heavy ways to get reliable study results with large sample sizes.
Matthew Walker readily admits that the field of sleep research is still largely inconclusive.
So do you personally think getting 6 hours of sleep but then doing a 3/2 hour nap every day is as beneficial as just getting 8/9 hours of sleep?
Anecdotally I do not take many naps, but when I do I try to keep them short to 20-30minutes otherwise I get super groggy. There’s some research on when deep sleep and REM cycles occur in naps, but there’s so many factors to consider I rather not make generalizations.
It’s really hard to say which is better since it’s so dependent on the culture you’re in. 9-5 work hours vs areas with siesta. Bars close at 2 vs night life starts at midnight.
I can’t recall of any studies that directly control for 8hrs of sleep versus 6+naps, so it’s hard to say which is better. But there is evidence that naps do help the mind and body considerably, and often practiced by top athletes and executives.
All in all I’d say prioritize getting 8hours total each day is the most important thing.
Really interesting insight. Thank you and I will try to get at least 8 hours of sleep + sometimes a 20/30 min nap.
Sounds a bit extreme. Missing one or two hours of sleep here and there and possibly locking in a long term quality plate sounds like a good deal.
Missing 1 or 2 hours of sleep here and there because browsing reddit or youtube videos is just stupid.
Yea I agree. I usually plan which days I meet with girls/plates so during chill days, I can stay up longer etc.
But sometimes, when I got to wake up early or I'm extremely tired, I will refuse a 10p.m booty call. My muscles will thank me, my dick will hate me.
Thanks for the recommendation I'm gonna get it for sure. What's your guys' take on Melatonin. I'm positive it's something that shouldn't be used as a crutch or used very often, and I read different perspectives on it. I'd like to hear yours too.
Gives me weird dreams. If I wake up in the middle of the night I can’t go back to sleep. If I sleep all night it’s hard to get up and I feel pretty groggy for a couple hours.
That means you're taking way too much.
About 0.3-0.5mg is the "right" amount, similar to what your body naturally produces when it's dark and you start to get tired
I take a “Children’s Melatonin” gummy that’s 3.0mg but only when I feel like it’s time for bed and the caffeine and adderall are keeping me from feeling tired.
3mg is like 10x what you need
Sorry for the late reply, but according to Matt Walker, the man of sleep science, Melatonin isn't really worth shit unless you're traveling. Essentially, outside of prescriptions, the market is really unregulated, and testing showed products with almost non existent levels or levels 100X higher than marketed. With that being said, the best thing you can do to improve melatonin would be to where sunglasses that filter out blue light in the evening and avoid LED's at night so your mind can naturally do it's thing earlier, to get you where you want.
I took it for a brief while, and it helped my sleep. But my doctor said it shouldn't be taken for an extended period of time, as it messes up your natural melatonin level.
Take it every night. Sleep soundly.
Sleep hygiene does it for me, as I am an avid person who avoids even Ibuprofen when it's not prescribed by a doctor. A sleep ritual is for me better than those weird sleeping pills from wall-mart. When I brush my teeth, my phone is off (got still a landline for 911 calls), I am in my pj's, and read a couple of minutes before I feel sleepy. Beats everything else. It clears the mind. And mostly it's the mind not something physical that fucks up my sleep.
Replying so i get feedback too if someone comments on this. Been considering using it to help with sleep.
IIRC:
It’s very effective for jet lag or for shifting your sleep hours to earlier.
It’s not effective for consistent usage. Your body just adapts. Not sure if there’s any negative effect.
Melatonin blocks dopamine receptors. If you had problems with panic attacks or you know your dopamine circuits are messed avoid it, it could make you allucinate/trigger paranoia
Talking about triggering paranoia 😁
If that's the first reaction you know if you should take it or not ;)
I would say take it occasionally, when you feel that you will struggle to fall asleep: I took it when i had very important exams, and study says you should also take it when you're jet lagged, other than that, i'm not sure if its ok to take it.
Half of the times I'm getting absolutely mad dreams on that. So vivid I live like several separate lifes a night: it's great and all but after that I don't feel rested. I don't feel sleepy either, it's like my body has rested but my mind did not. I typically drink a coffee and it's somewhat okay afterwards. Anyhow it's still better than not falling asleep for 2 hours, which for me is quite common unfortunately.
Definitely helps falling asleep. I just take 2 x 3mg, chill out for 15 minutes, then go to bed. I do it maybe once, sometimes twice a week.
Update for u/Blaze-Bless, it sucked for me. I ended up waking up at random hours of the night fully awake. Now while that did not affect the next day too much, I found that I could not wake up at my designated 7am time. My eyelids were heavy and I felt extremely drowsy.
Better off without.
Conventional wisdom is to not take it too often or for extended periods of time (as others have pointed out). But anecdotally, I've been taking it pretty much every night for 10+ years and it still helps me sleep like a baby. I've had no long term issues as far as I can tell, my sleep schedule is pretty on point. The strange dreams stop after a month or two.
Also FYI, it's a godsend if you wanna snooze through a 10+ hour plane ride.
Didnt do anything for me at all. Melatonin won't fix shitty sleep hygiene
Hmmm.. this post has me feeling uncomfortable with the unavoidable knowledge that you're right and I need to change my habits and attitude towards my sleep...
Damn.
Thanks
It's in your best interests to do so. Sleep is vital to physical and mental health and the right amount consistently will have big benefits.
I experimented with biphasic sleep recently and I'm a new man, getting 8 hours a night, feel like 30 years younger, no exaggeration.
Glad I could help bro. Our culture glorifies staying, up late and getting up early as some good thing. Naps are bad. Reality and research say other wise. Best of luck bro. Let me know if you can make the changes stick
Bro if you hit the gym hard you NEED to sleep a lot! Maximize your recovery for better gains!
Eating healthy makes me sleep less. I used to need 9h sleep every night eating shit. Now I eat healthy and I am totally good with 6-7h of sleep.
The older you get the less sleep you need. That's why an infant sleep way more than you do as an adult. I get 6 hours sometimes bit more, but more importantly it's complete the sleep sicles
You could be better with 8 bro.
I can't sleep after 6-7h anymore even if I tried to.
I can't function with 6-7 hours even if I tried to.
Everyone is different, general advice doesn't apply to all. 8 hours is for the majority, some people can function fine with less
I would suggest you to try the wimhof method as it is very beneficial for sleep the method opens up your pineal gland releasing toxins and improving the sacration of melatonin the sleep hormone also make sure to stay away from electronics or very bright lights after the sun has come down or try to find a solution by replacing all bright lights with warm lights that do not affect your melatonin sacration, The melatonin you get each night converts to seratonin at morning from which we can stand up from bed easier and our mornings are better
Could it be a mental thing? Consistently getting 6-7 hrs is not healthy and there's plenty of study to back that up. It's weird that eating healthy is transitioning your body to doing something detrimental.
Remember every human being is different. The consensus is 6-8 hours of sleep for an adult.
I only sleep 6-7 too. I wish I could do more.
It’s actually 7-9. Matthew Walker, who OP mentioned, said on a JR podcast that getting only 5-6 hours of sleep reduces your testosterone levels to those of a man who’s 10 years older.
Well my father has been sleeping around 6 hours as far back as I remember. I used to need 9+hours of sleep but I weighted 140kg on my worst. I've been eating zero carb for 15months now and I'm down to 95kg and currently I sleep around 6h like my father.
It has 100% to do with how healthy you are, specifically how toxic or clean your cells are. My friend, who is ultra healthy and has done a shitload of detoxification the past, says he is fully refreshed with only 4 hours a night because the quality of the sleep is so profoundly better now that he is genuinely healthy.
On the other hand, most of us need more hours of sleep specifically because we are tired and unhealthy as fuck, our body and brain are craving more sleep in an attempt to restore itself. thats the bottom line.
Are there studies at show that ideal sleep range for super healthy people is <6 hours?
With age and the fact that every body is different, 6 hours for many people is enough. That's why recommended is usually 6-8 hours. And as you get older, it becomes less.
Almost everybody need 8 h of sleep or are least a 8 h sleep opportunity . If i remenber right un the Book he said thé debt of sleep is recovered only after 5 nights of 8 h and that you can mesure the fall of performance of someone who sleep 8 vs another who sleep 6. The danger with lack of sleep is that you never realise how much you are sleep deprived
What do you mean by eat healthy? Usually when I am on cut I sleep less and when I am bulking I sleep more. As far as I know lower calories(lower than your maintenance) result in catecholamines increase, which is like signaling your body that you can't rest right now and need to find food. When you find food and eat your catecholamines drop and you become chill and your sleep time increase.
When you cut, also your cortisol levels rise and stay higher. That disturbs sleep as well.
I stopped eating carbs and sugar. Only meat, fat and water, and eggs.
Stopping eating entirely 3h before sleeping is giving me the best results, no matter what I ate.
I read for an hour before bed every night or until i can't keep my eyes open..
I can't imagine doing that anywhere but my bed.
For me the rule is also, don't read philosophy before bed. I'll stay up for hours if I do.
What do you read before bed? I've been reading novels before bed but I start thinking about the story too much and I can't sleep for like an hour.
A short history of nearly everything by Bill Bryson is one I’m on right now, so far it’s perfect for before bed.
a lengthy one, but a solid choice my friend
Fiction is best before bed
I read Bible which puts me into sleep in no time.
Mathew walker also has great podcast interviews too for those who prefer audio or youtube
He was on the Joe Rogan experience. So informative.
Here is another (discovered both of them on JRE) https://peterattiamd.com/matthewwalker1/
Good job finding trp and the intellectual dark web! Peter is a gift
I wish I could do this. Most I can get right now is 6 and that's a stretch. School full time and work full time.
The grind will be worth it. Respect
How are you evening managing 6 is the real question?
If I wake up a little later I can almost get 6. But that means I skip out on breakfast. So it's a toss up, sleep more and have no breakfast, or sleep less and have breakfast. I usually sleep less and have breakfast lol
Damn man that is fucking rough. Atleast you are raising your smv, good on ya.
Just listened to Joe Rogans pod with this guy. Absolutely brilliant insight, if anyone wants to know the gist of his book definitely give it a listen. I’m gonna have to pick this one up soon
Thanks, I needed this. In bed reading this on my phone, at about 5 am like a retard.
I just finished reading this book. Great and informative read. Glad you're making people aware.
I'm gonna watch his Google lecture, but do you know what he suggests for insomnia? I can look at the ceiling for hours before I get tired.
If you can't go to sleep, calcium is the most natural, most likely solution, and it's pretty cheap. Calcium Citrate has good bioavailability, 450 - 900 mg in the evening, break tablets in half, take one half dose 2 hours before the time you want to be asleep. Take second half dose one hour before. Do this for one week, if you are going to sleep well, stay at that dose, if not, then step the dose up to 675 mg(or as close as you can get), stay at that dose for one week, if needed, step up to 900 mg. A few people may need to go as high as 1800 mg calcium.
If you tend to have diarrhea - this generally indicates low calcium, especially if this is associated with difficulty going to sleep and with cramping in the calves and ribcage. If calcium levels get too high you will tend to have constipation(which should be differentiated from costiveness - a hard, dry stool, where constipation is infrequent bowel movements).
Melatonin may also help, but many people take too much, as little as 1/2 mg may be enough for some people.
Magnesium can also act as a muscle relaxer to help bring on sleep, especially if you've maxed the dose on calcium and are starting to have constipation from the calcium, the magnesium will tend to cause diarrhea, or in concert with the calcium, balance your bowel habits. Magnesium should be at 225 mg to 450 mg, with a max of 900 mg.
If one has trouble staying asleep, a B-Complex vitamin may help, break tablets in half, take on the same guidelines as stated above for calcium, in the evening, divided.
Hope this helps.
The first recommendation is CBTI. Cognitive Behavioral Therapy for Insomnia. If you have genuine insomnia, this is worth your time
I recently read the Sleep Solution by Dr. Chris Winter. Amazing read - it's basically a tutorial on how to sleep.
I listened to his podcast conversation with Dr. Peter Attia, lots of great info in addition to the book (both Matthew Walker and Peter Attia have fascinating interviews on the Joe Rogan podcast too, but their talk together is on another level of expertise)
https://peterattiamd.com/matthewwalker1/
Oops, wondering why vaping made me hella sleepy for a minute. Thanks buddy
Tip: take your contacts out
Also stop consuming caffeine after 2-3pm max
Great point. It can take 8-10 hours to metabolize depending on dose and genetics. I stop after 10 AM personally.
Honestly, I envy everyone here who gets even 6 hours of sleep. I’ve been getting an average of 4 hours every single day for more than 15 years. A lot of times i have to resort to desperate measures (mostly porn) to turn my mind off and force myself to sleep. It’s absolutely terrible, but I’m not sure how to fix it naturally. Worst part is it’s potentially messed up my career cause I haven’t performed nearly as well as I could have for years, due to this. I’ll try some of your tips and hopefully it works, cause I’ve just about tried every thing else.
Ok but how tf does one stay asleep for 8 hrs
As you get older, that can get harder. No liquids or heavy meals an hour or two before bed will help. Lower temperatures can help. There are more advanced methods, but if you're not doing at least those two then you should start.
I recommend blue light apps/ programs and stay away from screens that emit blue light, LCDs, phones, etc. for at least two/three hours before bed.
Just to add, a cold shower before bed is incredibly effective in bringing down your body temperature and prepares you for sleep.
Funnily enough, a hot shower will also help you sleep as it encourages blood flow to extremities which can then radiate heat to lower your core temperature. Walker mentions it's easier to sleep if your hands and feet are feeling warm.
I'm lucky to sleep six hours a night 4 months out of the year due to work, and I can see the effects. Luckily I capitalize on as much sleep as possible the other 8 during my slow season. Sleep is important for sure...especially for the gains.
Einstein slept 10 hours a day
he sleeps more than that these days
Federer sleeps 9-10 hours a day as well.
What about when you need to sacrifice sleep for say career advancement?
I didn't read all this but OP said they were into sleep science. Whats your opinion on that sleep system where you take like 3-4 hours at night and an hour like at lunch and an hour or something at dinner/supper? I think they say like Newton or Einstein or some famous people did this???? I forget the name of it.
Polyphasic sleep. It can definitely increase productivity, but the main downside is that you disconnect from most people rythm, so your social life may suffer.
He was on JRE a while back right? If this is the same guy it’s a must listen to podcast, OP is right sleep is so important, in fact i listened to that podcast twice and now i want to find it again.
To combat the LED light from screens he talks about, install flux on your computer. It's free and it causes the screen to develop a more orange tone as the evening wears on. Also check out sleepyti.me which helps you to calculate how to get a solid nights' sleep based on when you need to wake up.
That is a great book. It mentions society screws over a portion of the population who are 'night owls' I fit into that category. Thankfully I can start work late, cant say the same about napping unfortunately. Society needs to wakeup to our natural needs.
What do you guys think about polyphasic sleep schedules?
I've read about it and it really seems interesting. But good luck managing a social life...
EDIT : http://straighttothebar.com/articles/2006/10/biphasic_sleep_30_day_summary/ this is the article I've learned about polyphasic sleep. There's a small paragraph on the downsides in it.
What are your thoughts on a kindle to read in bed?
No light or lowlight but read in the darkness before sleep. Got it.
If you oversleep on Saturday morning you're under sleeping during the week, catching up isn't the same as getting it right in the first place. No caffeine within 12 hours of bedtime works for me, sounds extreme but it makes a difference. Using a wearable sleep tracker will tell you roughly how much sleep you actually get, mine is much lower than I thought.
Quick mention: you need to turn off that monitor or cellphone one hour before. Your brain confuses either one of those objects with the sun, shut it down.
How many of you take naps midday at work? Also, where? Would you go to your car and sleep there?
I hate the idea of sleeping but do get easy 8 hours in with waking up half way through. 4 hours sleep is horrendous to go off, however I’m aiming to sleep 5-6 hours. Too few hours and cannot spend 33%-40% of your day sleeping (including preparation). Life’s too short.
Blue light blocking glasses are great. I saw them suggested on here a few years back and it was solid advice, they help the body to produce melatonin at night even when you're in a bunch of light.
OK, then how do you explain Arnold Schwarzenegger?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1g2ntIN7JuY
I can't tell if you're joking or not, but if you aren't, the answer is external hormones. Steroids, which every bodybuilder at that level uses.
Not joking. I'll agree that part of the explanation is steroid use, but I think we have to concede that genetic code is a big factor as well.
Sleep may help testosterone levels, but there are certainly more important factors like genetics and diet. Just saying.
There is a particular gene that lets you run perfectly well on 5-6 hours of sleep. It's incredibly rare. If you think you have it, I recommend getting tested for it, and if it's true then you are an extremely lucky individual. This was mentioned by Matt Walker as well
Idk about this. All my life I've tried to sleep 8 hours. Tried without alarms, tried working out before, running before, never taken supplements, I was even a vegetarian and on the keto diet at 2 different points in my life. Never slept more than 7 hours.
Edit: also want to add I do a lot of cardio. Like 50 miles a week. My heart rate is healthy and resting rate is usually below 50. I feel great at 5 hours of sleep.
bro it was 12 am hha thanks
One of the most underrated books, changed my whole perspective on sleep..not only getting more hours sleep but going to sleep earlier and rising earlier is important also
i thought we all hated women here and shit. well i'll be..
I used to crash after lunch during high school, little did I understand it was carbohydrate(saccharide sugar) metabolism which was sabotaging my body, making me extremely lethargic.
The second thing I can't help notice is despite "scientific claims", there is not one inference linked here. This is essentially an opinion piece without any research to back the stated inferences.
That book was why we sleep by Matthew Walker. Everything is there and is backed with scientific studies. If you're that skeptical of what I said, you're free to look it up
Did I screw myself over by not getting enough sleep in my teens? I would only get 3-5 hours a night because of my internet addiction and now I'm 18, been 5'9" for years and have a small frame. If I had proper sleep is it probable I would have have developed a better frame / height?
How does this belong here? This is what self-help gurus will post, it's what they'll post in the science section on NYT. It's not wrong but it's not really right either.
Donald Trump gets 4 hrs of sleep per night. Most people are not capable of doing this but neither should you force yourself to get more sleep than your body wants and needs. Do whatever works for you.
This post provides a set of tools, I don't think following all of them isnt necessary - for example I'm not going to take hot showers.
There are some good takeaways like consistent bed times and wake up times and I do like the refusal to compromise sleep for a hot girl - encourages escalation sooner rather than later. also napping blue light free room decompressing before bed not in bed etc
yeah i can't say i disagree. But are we going to see posts on RP now about "eat your vegetables"? Or "brush your teeth"?
i get your point that some of this stuff is obvious but im not sure trp has gone as low as to emphasise the importance basic daily necessities.
its all just about organising the disorganised and i think this post has hit the nail on the head at least for myself - i feel inspired to end my 4am outings and to escalate my dates into a close closer to 12 than 1am