Is it ever reasonable to feel entitled to sex?

Atlas_B_Shruggin · 2019-04-15T15:13:10+00:00

dashed hopes is not "entitlement"

CombatStacey · 2019-04-15T15:18:18+00:00

a) A man and woman are dating. He brings her out to a romantic Valentines Day dinner. Once back home, he jerks off into a towel and passes out. She becomes upset.

She's not being entitled. The ground rules of a "romantic valentine's day dinner" are commonly acknowledged as being a night in which your partner has your full attention. The two are already a couple in which intimacy has been part of their relationship.

b) A man and woman are dating. They are both at a bar having a night out. She gets harassed. He fails to defend her to her standard. She becomes upset.

She's not being entitled. It's a reasonable expectation. If a woman was harassing another woman's partner, it's reasonable to expect she'd defend her partner.

However, I think I did a good job in building a scenario of the gendered reversed 'nice guy' who takes a woman out to dinner, expects sex and gets mad when she doesn't put out (what is commonly refereed to as entitled behavior).

You did a terrible job of it. Sex is not commonly acknowledged as following when a man takes a woman out to dinner. There is no reasonable expectation. To give sex in return for a dinner is prostitution.

You're free to attack the premise that these two women are not acting entitled but it's missing the point entirely.

Why use these examples then? They don't match with the "gender reversal". A proper gender reversal would be:

a) A man and woman are dating. They go out to a romantic Valentines Day dinner. Once back home, she jerks off into a towel and passes out. He becomes upset.

In this case, it's reasonable for him to be upset.

Mr_Smoogs · 2019-04-15T15:05:38+00:00

If a dude took me out on a date, brought me home, and jacked off - I'd think he's a noodge and I'm outta here but not because I was entitled to anything...just that the guy is a waste of my time.

sparksjoy · 2019-04-15T15:09:54+00:00

Never. Let's look at the two definitions you gave:

>feeling that you have a right to the good things in life without necessarily having to work for them

>an entitled person thinks they are special and deserve special treatment

I wouldn't expect a random-ass dude to protect me just because. The men I expect protection from (blood relatives, future spouse) I hope that I would be adding enough value to their life to them to at least want to care for and protect me. As a good wife, a loyal daughter, a caring sister, etc. Whether or not I would let them is a different story (probably a no in the second case because I'm sentimental, and I'd rather die than lose someone so important to me).

diffdedbed · 2019-04-15T15:14:36+00:00

Married monogamous couple are entitled to sex IMO and a valid reason for divorce if it doesn't happen.

Otherwise, no.

nemma88 · 2019-04-15T15:14:07+00:00

I think it's different from that particular nice guy case because the nice guys are not in a established sexual relationship.

Potentially the only person I would consider to have cause to complain is woman in a, because that's pretty weird behavior. I would consider the same for a deadbedroomed man.

Assuming when you say 'are dating' you mean there is a sexual relationship established that is, if it's like first date then they are being entitled and should cut their losses.

crackrocksteady7 · 2019-04-15T15:14:59+00:00

Is it ever reasonable to feel entitled? When do you feel it is reasonable?

this is a weird frame question. Some people think they're entitled to fairness, something for their efforts, others aren't. I think that if I'm looking for X, putting in effort and you're not giving to me I'm dropping you and dont give a flying fuck if you call me entitled

lefactorybebe · 2019-04-15T15:06:08+00:00

IDK, that first scenario is strange. If that were me, I wouldn't be upset because of sex not happening, I'd be upset that he chose to jack off instead of having sex. If someone is choosing to masturbate instead when they have a willing and able partner, that's indicative of a larger problem, and that's where the upset would come from.

I think on Valentine's day this year my boyfriend passed out in bed and we didn't have sex; I wasn't upset about that, he was tired. It's not a big deal.

sublimemongrel · 2019-04-15T15:22:48+00:00

Use of the word entitled in this context typically is that it’s not deserved or earned. If sometime said “I’m entitled to overtime pay by law for the work that I did” that context doesn’t really imply the whole “doesn’t deserve it/didn’t earn it” part. But most people when they talk about being “entitled to sex” or “entitled to someone’s body” are going to use that context the way I mentioned originally. This is more or less another one of your semantic debates.

But yes there is plenty of circumstances in which is it reasonable to expect sex from your SO and in which many people would understand the disappointment. Like for example expecting sex in a marriage is reasonable IMO.

Electra_Cute · 2019-04-15T15:41:49+00:00

You are entitled to have sex, so yes it is reasonable. What is unreasonable is thinking that because you are entitled to sex that other people have an obligation to have sex with you.

Aaren_Augustine · 2019-04-15T15:16:51+00:00

Its reasonable to feel entitled. Its less so when your dating. Its averagely reasonable if you are boyfriend and girlfriend. Its more so if you are married.

If you are dating, it's not your job if you don't want it to be. If you are in a relationship it's kinda your job even if you don't want to. If you are married, it's most definitely your damn job and you actively signed up to do so. At that point do your job.

Glawen_Clattuc · 2019-04-15T16:16:32+00:00

Let's now establish what I mean by entitled [ ... ]

Both the definitions state clearly that entitled is:

(usually disapproving)

SHOWING DISAPPROVAL

So when the definitions then say:

feeling that you have a right to the good things in life without necessarily having to work for them

an entitled person thinks they are special and deserve special treatment

it's meant negatively.

I don't mean to be a pain in the ass, but if what you mean by entitled is the definitions given in those two dictionaries then I do not get how you can say:

I believe the women in both scenarios above are perfectly reasonable in feeling entitled.

ilptrandom · 2019-04-15T21:45:02+00:00

I don't think it is reasonable to feel entitled to sex, however it is reasonable to feel that certain types of dynamics can only exist if sex is happening. I mean obviously, for example, if I'm dating and over the course of a few months he won;t have sex well that's a whole sort of bonding that won't occur and I'm going to get bored, feel unfulfilled and call the whole thing off. Similarly with defending or co-operating with or any one of a thousand other sorts of mutualistic behavior towards or with another person. I mean if I was dating and the guy won't join with me in repelling unwanted advances well that's the sign that he's probably not going to have my back in countless other situations and well maybe this won't ever be a relationship of that sort and if I want a relationship of that sort or even just would prefer to be beaten up alone rather than while my date watches disinterestedly maybe I should exit this relationship.

Also entitlement isn't a matter of expecting something might happen and then not getting it and being sad... it is a matter of not getting it and then getting angry and holding someone else responsible for providing it. Entitlement is "what the fuck is this about that you aren't giving me..." not "oh well, sad that's not happening"

Henchman20 · 2019-04-16T00:23:47+00:00

wekacuck · 2019-04-15T15:10:03+00:00

Is it ever reasonable to feel entitled to sex?

Yeah. Of course it is reasonable to feel entitled to sex. It's reasonable to feel the urge to murder PPD posters. But I don't even think it's wrong to feel entitled to sex. For example a husband and wife are perfectly reasonable to expect that sex with each other is part of what the titles "husband" and "wife" convey.

The sticky area is when something breaks down. I don't believe that a title can override lack of consent. If you're in a relationship that has an entitlement to sex (say a marriage) and the sex entitlement is gone, then you are no longer "husband" and "wife". You can do that by renegotiating the titles or by ending the marriage/relationship.

a) A man and woman are dating. He brings her out to a romantic Valentines Day dinner. Once back home, he jerks off into a towel and passes out. She becomes upset.

This seems abusive to me. One of the interesting things I read in "Why Does He Do That?" is that male abusers often deny their women sex in order to exert power and control and to humiliate. I think it can be very borderline to setup expectations and then deny in a cruel way. Once or twice is one thing but the way you've written this scenario sounds like it's his intent to humiliate and degrade.

b) A man and woman are dating. They are both at a bar having a night out. She gets harassed. He fails to defend her to her standard. She becomes upset.

Oh noes she's upset! Did he stop the harassment or not?

reluctantly_red · 2019-04-15T15:11:49+00:00

This has got to be the all time stupidest PPD post. In case its not totally obvious NO ONE IS EVER ENTITLED TO SEX.

Also for slow learners -- women have sex with guys because they want to -- not because they owe them sex. If she doesn't want to have sex with you find another woman.

DXBrigade · 2019-04-15T15:22:15+00:00

Entitled maybe but it's not really about sex, it's about being a "good date".

[deleted] · 2019-04-16T12:22:54+00:00

"Entitled" like many other adjectives has been overused and no longer has its original meaning.

The modern meaning of calling someone "entitled" is: feeling that you should have an opportunity to something other people (e.g.: feminists, MRAs) think you should not be able to have an opportunity towards.

Both the left and the right are guilty of this.

CatchPhraze · 2019-04-16T16:06:51+00:00

Being upset at an outcome is not the same thing as feeling entitled. I can be upset that the great bakery i went to for lunch sold out of my favorite scone before I got there, doesn't mean I felt entitled to one.

If she is aggressive or tries to guilt her partner into another outcome, that might be different. She would be wrong there, in a situation with really neither of them are being very ideal. Sometimes nobody is right.

And nobody at the end of the day is really entitled to anything not covered under the law and basic human rights. However that does not mean free from consequence. A man who ignores his partner is not entitled to keep her, and vice versa.

Doggofish2 · 2019-04-16T00:12:57+00:00

I think the problem here is the word "entitled".

The definitions for entitled here implies sex being something worked for, that the involved party did not work for, and did not earn but feels that they ought to receive anyway because they are special. It's compared to spoiled, in the links that you gave. So, if what you're asking is if it's ever valid to expect to be given something you're supposed to work for, but didn't work for, that is inherently a moral issue, yet you ask for no moralizing.

I do think that when people say men feel "entitled" to sex, they are using it, not as an accurate descriptive statement but as an insult. Like saying "he thought he deserved this because he was SPOILED. He thinks just because he's a man and he does this and this, he deserves to be allowed sex regardless of whether she's feeling it."

Words like spoiled and selfish, aren't usually descriptors used in kind, open minded conversation nor to accurately describe the specifics of what's happening but used to moralize as you say. Feeling entitled (by this definition) is like being spoiled. It's bad. It's always bad. It doesn't tend to mean anything good if someone calls you spoiled.

Words like entitled, spoiled, selfish, are used more to shut down a conversation or trivialize or dismiss emotions. It's the difference between "well, he did this, and she did that, and he felt this way about it..." and the alternative .... "he's just SPOILED" "she's so SELFISH"

So let's try to answer your question. Is it ever reasonable to feel entitled to sex? I feel like what you really mean here is "owed" or "ought to be given due the circumstances." and I mean sure. There's lots of times when there are expectations, agreements explicit or implied, and if expectations aren't met, hurt feelings are valid. In the example you gave if a man takes a woman on a nice date and jacks off into a sock...her feelings whatever they may be are valid...but she wasn't necessarily owed sex.

Reading some of the comments I see you want to keep this hypothetical and not get personal so here's an impersonal example.

Man A takes Woman B on a date. Woman B is sexually active (has proven to have no problem having sex outside of a committed partnership.) Man A takes Woman B out on a very expensive date and pays for everything. Woman B dresses seductively and flirts shamelessly. Man A entered into the situation believing that he was going to get laid. It wasn't contextually a far out idea, the signs were there. Woman B accepts the lavish dinner, and does nothing in return. Man goes home feeling sad, disappointed, maybe even a little angry.

The problem here is a lack of communication and agreement. There is no pre-planned agreement arranging after dinner sex, even though this was the man's plan from the get go. The woman was not on board. Worst case scenario, she even knew that's what he expected and took advantage of him for free stuff! But giving her the benefit of the doubt, she really just wanted I nice evening out, was really just trying to get to know someone, and perceived him as kind and generous for paying the bill.

We know the man in this scenario is expecting sex. That's a given factor in the hypothetical, but we don't have the woman's part of the equation, and neither does he. Maybe she was planning the whole time to not have sex that evening or maybe she would have sex if certain variables were met, like she thought she really wanted to pursue this relationship, or he really got her in the mood. Her mind is not known on the matter.

Now here's the reverse: Woman A takes Man B out to something he enjoys and pays the bill. She thinks she's going to get sex, which she wants. Man doesn't want to have sex with her, he goes home and passes out drunk. Woman A is hurt.

So, was Woman A "entitled" to sex because she paid for the date but didn't get a sexual return? Was Man A "entitled" to sex because he paid and he didn't get a sexual return?

The premise "if man is sometimes entitled, than woman is sometimes entitled" is not a neccessity. Maybe in both situations no one was "entitled" everyone's disappointment and various degree of hurt feelings were valid, and maybe all these hypothetical men and women could learn a thing about clear communication and respecting each other's feelings. and maybe, just maybe, going around calling anyone "entitled" and "spoiled" and "selfish" when we're all just trying to navigate a tricky social world of unclear expectations, is just a really shitty thing to do.

Zippo-Cat · 2019-04-16T05:50:43+00:00

Let's now establish what I mean by entitled.

https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/entitled

https://www.macmillandictionary.com/us/dictionary/american/entitled

Well if that's the definition then it's meaningless because it's based on feelings. One man's entitled is not another man's entitled, so how do you even define it?

DaphneDK42 · 2019-04-16T10:08:23+00:00

Its reasonable to feel entitled to sex in a committed long term relationship. Not on demand. But at reasonable regular intervals.

SubstantialNegro · 2019-04-16T18:02:14+00:00

Man fuck those definitions.

"Entitlement" in this case is used as a slur to remove any responsibility of honesty towards the man in question from the woman involved. A woman will sell men on implied future pussy in order to get free shit from him and will be applauded for running game on him. It's the whole "wait 90 days"-type shit. The man in question fulfills his part of the social contract yet doesn't end up with the goods; some other man was hitting it instead or she moves on to the next lottery ticket.

Do all women do this? Of course (not). They know they're teasing and stringing him along, but the man has no idea and wants to be the "good guy" for lack of better word only to end up played like a fucking sport. The only reason this "entitlement" meme bullshit exists is because men done started calling these hoes on it. Now we are supposed to bee the villains though his arguments are valid.

GridReXX · 2019-04-16T20:10:03+00:00

I don’t think I comprehend this notion of entitlement to other people. I literally don’t have this emotion. They either align or we don’t. My worldview doesn’t entitle me to anything. There are things I want that I manipulate to get.

I want my drink in front of me. I’m not entitled to it. I manipulated time-space to fetch it with my hand.

czerdec · 2019-04-16T23:33:13+00:00

If you already paid the hooker and she's spent the money, you'd probably feel sex is the best way to resolve the issue. An IOU may not be worth all that much.

Obviously just talking about raw feelings, her consent is still the core rule. Any incredibly stupid folks reading this better understand that much.

MisterJose · 2019-04-17T04:40:14+00:00

"Entitled" is a word that gets thrown around a lot these days, mostly as ammunition against people we view as entitled. It's true, it can be an ugly shirt to wear, but I think we have to do better to understand the psychology of where it comes from.

Maybe there is no justice in the world, maybe life is cruel and unfair, maybe there are starving third-world people you're not feeling sufficiently thankful for not being in the same position as. But hearing any of that doesn't solve the problem. If you tear down people's sense of fairness, and ability to think they can justly earn something in the world, you leave them aimless and cynical. They have to know why they should keep the faith.

If someone comes to you and says they worked hard for years at work, and lost the promotion to some incompetent buddy of the boss, you don't go, "What, did you think you were entitled to that job!? No one is owed anything, grow up!" That would be a truly shit response on your part. Instead, you go, "Yeah, I know it sucks, man, totally unfair. I feel you." We all know the world is unfair, we don't need it shoved in our faces, we need each other's support in dealing with it. Same with relationships: It's not fair. We know that, and it sucks. So when someone is feeling like they did everything to be a decent human, and are losing the relationship game to total assholes, just give them a bit of sympathy. That's all they really want, anyway. The alternative is that we lose that person to despair, or to the dark side, and we can't have a functioning society if it's filled with cynical assholes only out for themselves.

Reed_4983 · 2019-04-26T12:29:22+00:00

I don't believe any person should ever have the obligation to have sex. However, relationships are built on agreements and mutual effort and devotion. One agreement that seems very reasonable to me (in a sexual/romantic relationship) is "I, as your partner, feel obliged to try to make you sexually satisfied." The "try" part is important because people also have to work that they themselves are sexually satisfied, and the partner's own well-being also matters a lot. They shouldn't be expected to have sex with their partner every time they ask when they don't feel like it. In these cases, I would say that the partner is generally entitled to their partner's efforts to make sure both are sexually satisfied.

In the cases you mentioned, the people are just dating and no relationship agreement has been made (apart from implicit ones such as "we only see each other") so the woman isn't entitled to get sex from the guy and also isn't entitled to his physical protection. However, according to societal norms, it's still reasonable to expect these things, so she can rightfully feel upset, despite not being entitled to these things.

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Title	Is it ever reasonable to feel entitled to sex?
Author	Mr_Smoogs
Upvotes	3
Comments	147
Date	April 15, 2019 2:56 PM UTC (7 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/bdgx57/is_it_ever_reasonable_to_feel_entitled_to_sex/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/is-it-ever-reasonable-to-feel-entitled-to-sex.256210 https://theredarchive.com/post/256210

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