Why do we automatically assume lying or truth in cases of sexual assualt?

MelodramaticMouse · 2018-12-11T17:39:57+00:00

People assume that people they don't like, or are on the opposite political side, are lying and people they do like, or are on their side of the political divide, are telling the truth.

whitetrashcarl · 2018-12-11T17:30:53+00:00

“We” don’t do anything

Most people take the approach of be supportive AND verify.

A bunch of loudmouths on the Internet go to one of two extremes

Mr_Smoogs · 2018-12-11T17:55:28+00:00

I don't think we are rushing to always assume the victim is lying. I think there is a propensity for people on the left to conflate healthy skepticism (that our legal system relies on) with assuming the victim is lying.

CreightonWAbrams · 2018-12-11T17:38:32+00:00

Who is "we?"

FieldLine · 2018-12-11T18:33:19+00:00

The burden of proof is generally on the accuser. Why would sexual assault be any different?

NiceGuyNumber4 · 2018-12-11T19:15:59+00:00

Innocent until proven guilty.

Workaholico · 2018-12-11T18:41:08+00:00

We don't assume anything. The heck?

Only ignorant people assume anything without proof. Skepticism is the rule for both possibilities. At least for me

whatyoucallaflip · 2018-12-11T20:05:53+00:00

It's the emotional nature of the discussions I think. When we came to the topic of rape in my criminal law class, the professor said "the majority of people are either solidly pro-defendant or pro-victim". Really resonates with me all these years later, given how that's exactly how the camps have shaped up.

Marino4K · 2018-12-11T18:05:06+00:00

I imagine the amount of cases with false claims are probably going up, I don’t have a citation for this so take it for what you will

wekacuck · 2018-12-11T18:30:07+00:00

I can only speak for myself (not "we") but I wouldn't say I assume anyone is lying or telling the truth. It's probably more that I suspend judgement until necessary. If someone is upset and they want to talk to me and I have time, I don't mind talking to them or hearing their story. I don't think of myself as particularly supportive compared to others but for whatever reason people like to tell me their stories. Someone is telling their experience and perspective about something that happened and I let them tell it. It could be a lie or it could be truthful or it could be one of those things where people involved both perceived something different. Generally, whether or not it is truthful isn't particularly meaningful to me because it is very rare that my actions actually depend on knowing the truth.

Civil_Seaworthiness · 2018-12-11T19:29:36+00:00

I think that a lot of what's going on with the sexual assault conversation right now is growing pains with what used to be a highly personal/private situation (and on a lot of levels, still is) and the growing 'broad scale' importance and implications of sexual assault becoming something that we talk about publicly, that affects people beyond their personal lives or, rarely, their judicial/legal proceedings.

We're used to 'personal' language in sexual assault conversations: my friend 'believes' me or she doesn't, maybe my mutual friend with the person who assaulted me 'doesn't believe' me because he's convinced that the guy who assaulted me is a great guy, or because the guy who did it has preemptively accused me of doing some other wrong to him/being 'crazy'/untrustworthy.

Does it make sense to say a stranger on the internet 'doesn't believe me'? It's not like I was sitting down in a coffee shop with my best friend, explaining why I've been acting so weird for the last week - they're weighing in on a fact of my experience without knowing me or knowing anything about me. Why should they weigh in on whether or not I'm 'telling the truth'? What unique perspective do they have on what happened to me?

And yet, we feel we have to. Once my experiences are public, and sexual assault is increasingly a 'public occurrence', to be weighed in on and discussed around a water cooler at work, everything that is said publicly still feels unbearably personal to me. Once the discussion about sexual assault is public, it becomes everyone's prerogative to comment and interact with the news, to discuss and analyze and present their perspective, regardless of their knowledge or experience, because the implications of the conversation for workplace rules and the norms of engagement in public spaces will inevitably affect them, at least a little.

So sexual assault becomes a public performance, while still being a private hell for someone who was actually sexually assaulted. And their pain and their feelings are also forced down the throats of other assault victims who haven't gone public, who now see and feel the cruelty of strangers in a way they never would have had to before.

This weird phenomenon of personal conversations being had incredibly impersonally, extremely publicly, is bound to raise problems. As it becomes more normal, I think we'll get better about understanding where it's appropriate to weigh in, where it's appropriate to share our experiences, and where it does more harm than good.

A lot of people who are 'assuming a lie' are approaching assault as though they're a cop, while the people who assume truthfulness are approaching assault as though they're the victim's friend. The truth is, almost no 'commentators' are either of these things; we're not cops/lawyers on the case, and we're not the victim's close personal friend, we're just a bunch of idiots making everything that happens about ourselves and what we believe, and it muddies the water dramatically.

Sexual assault is a 'special issue' in this regard because we don't have a lot of experience as a society talking about it the way we're currently trying to do. I think we all need to exercise a lot more temperance with the way we weigh in, and consider our biases in all directions as well as our self-preservation instincts. Ultimately, we're talking about shit that's happened to someone - to a lot of someones, regardless of gender, that's excruciatingly painful for anyone who's experienced it - and it's better to be quiet than to be cruel, usually. That goes for everybody, all the time. It's something we can all work on.

SerpentCypher · 2018-12-11T19:04:14+00:00

You don't assume, that's just lazy. You try to be supportive wherever necessary.

What I see people describing as "assuming the victim is lying" is people defending due process for the accused and saying that the burden of proof is on the accuser, not the accused. Innocent until proven guilty, remember?

It's interesting you use the word "victim" instead of accuser. Assuming they are telling the truth is just as lazy and problematic (ugh) as assuming they are lying. Don't you have to prove the crime before you can call someone a victim of it?

HossMcDank · 2018-12-11T20:26:19+00:00

I’ve noticed that a lot of people consider not automatically believing every accusation to be “assum[ing] lying”. But in hard RP/incel circles you can probably see the real thing.

Eastuss · 2018-12-12T08:54:00+00:00

I just prefer to think sometimes someone can feel raped without the other being a rapist or guilty of anything.

IDK why we think someone has to be punished for someone else's feelings.

poppy_blu · 2018-12-12T12:16:41+00:00

People do the same thing with child sexual abuse. The Catholic Church? 20 years after scandal blew up the catholic church the point that they’ve never recovered in membership numbers, they’re still finding priests abusing kids and the church covering it up.

Why do we have such an propesity to want to sweep sex related crimes under the rug?

It’s not what the manosphere believes, it’s not about kowtowing to feminists, or we wouldn’t see the same things happening with the child sex abuse scandals.

It’s not that we have a problem believing in that which e can’t see and have no evidence for. Or else there would be no such thing as religion.

Is it that we ignore/hide it and don’t want to make these men accoutable for their actions because the unspoken belief is that male sexuality is uncontrollable and naturally predatory?

IDK

I will say that the obsession with the topic in the manosphere and the rabid insistence that women lie about rape “50, no wait, 85, no actually 93.666% of the time,” is another dynamic altogether.

cateml · 2018-12-11T21:59:22+00:00

"Believe the victim" might not mean what you think it means.

It means if your friend/relative/coworker etc. comes to you and says "I was raped the other night", you react with listening and maybe an 'Oh fuck!' and a 'What can I do?' instead of "But are you SURE that you didn't make it look like you wanted to? You probably made it look like you wanted to?". You're just taking them at their word in that situation instead of second guessing them - of course there is a possibility they're not telling the truth, but you can't ascertain that.
Because you're not a court of law. You help them take it to a court of law, if that it a possibility. Then the court of law does the whole beyond reasonable doubt bit, not you. It's like.... if your friend told you their car got broken into. You wouldn't go "But was it a freak giant hail storm?" or "did you do it yourself for insurance?" etc. You'd just commiserate and help them logistically deal with that shit. You're not the one who is maybe a year down the line trying the dude who did or did not break into their car - you're just their friend they're talking about their car to.

The whole reason for the push of 'believe the victim' is that we don't believe the victim in cases of sexual assault the way that we do victims of other crimes. And that adds a whole layer of horror to being the victim of sexual assault.

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[deleted] · 2018-12-11T18:28:28+00:00

Because some people just seem shady. Specially if you can look them in the eyes.

peterlongc · 2018-12-11T18:31:33+00:00

Generally speaking... The more significant a problem is the more it calls for immediate answers, to ensure security. If someone in your family told you they were a victim of sexual assault you would most likely feel the need to find the perpetrator as quickly as possible. We live in a time when the problems of the entire world may enter our sphere of concern even if truly has no impact on our lives and we have no means of 'getting to the bottom of it'. Rape's a big deal, we all want to solve the murder mysteries on TV; and who can avoid feeling convinced by the end that they feel they know who was guilty?

It's a big deal to let murderers or rapists roam free in a small community (such as one we were meant to inhabit); fear and paranoia will multiply and the ones in charge will feel pressured to pin the blame somewhere so that normalcy can be restored. Things like that...

You can tune out at any time and focus on yourself and those around you

neuk_mijn_oogkas · 2018-12-13T01:37:47+00:00

It's hardly just sexual assault.

People seem to approach truth in a really weird binary way rather than approach reality as the game of chance and estimates that it is. People often seem waaaaay too convinced something is true or false with not enough evidence going either way.

People often act like they've seen a ghost when they ask me if something is true and I say "I give it about 60-70% odds of being true" and then they demand I extremify my answer which I'm unwilling to do.

Also: a big advantage of this is that you never have to eat crow. A fear of having to eat crow might be one of the healthist things a man can have to inspire no rash judgement.

Mattcwu · 2018-12-13T00:03:29+00:00

Militant feminism.

Eartherry · 2018-12-12T04:02:49+00:00

The difference is the ability to empathize with the victim. We can easily picture ourselves enduring the hardships of those we relate to. When we can't relate we have no choice but to imagine the person it's happening to, and thus, the act itself. So when we hear of the act taking place, even though we cognitively know it's possible, we can't reconcile the cognitive dissonance of how a real person can experience an imaginary act, and so assume they must be lying.

Title	Why do we automatically assume lying or truth in cases of sexual assualt?
Author	LinkedFerret69
Upvotes	15
Comments	79
Date	December 11, 2018 5:29 PM UTC (7 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/a58w3x/why_do_we_automatically_assume_lying_or_truth_in/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/why-do-we-automatically-assume-lying-or-truth-in.258600 https://theredarchive.com/post/258600

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