CMV: The "naturals" that women supposedly want are essentially non-existent.

This will be my final PPD post, guys. I start a job on Monday, and I'm doing a lot better, having recovered from some mental health problems. I would really appreciate your thoughts on these interesting topics.

In this sub-thread, u/Eastuss explains that women want physiological/neurological "naturals":

They prefer "naturally muscular men", AKA tall, broad shoulders, does lot of physical activities and is fit. A guy who lifts and watches his macro is not their ideals.

Majority of women here talk like manlyness is innate. Talk like attractive men who "get it" are born getting it. And it's not entirely wrong because you presumably have all that with high T already or you develop all the required social traits IN TIME. Atlas is woke and objective and will tell you that if you don't have it, you must develop it, but for women knowing it is a hint that you're not a "natural" and therefore it's disgusting to them.

Women are disgusted by "fake" non-naturals:

"don't lie and appear like what you're not, because I don't want to have to put in effort to pierce through the lies, and if you achieved to actually change, don't tell me you were different before"

However, look at the laundry-list of things that have to go right for a man in order for u/Eastuss to consider that man a "natural":

• tall

• great skeleton/bone-structure (broad shoulders)

• mesomorph (how many mesomorphs are 6'4"? the celebrity-examples are all under 6'0", for example...)

• naturally muscular (doesn't need to lift or watch his macros)

• exercises a lot and is fit

• the dude on the right in this image is supposed to be good because he has natural muscles (how do we know that from a pic?) and because he has great bone-structure (how tall is he?)

• naturally socially/sexually smooth (no TRP-knowledge/game-knowledge required)

How many men check all these boxes?

I didn't even mention these things that they also need to have:

• income/status (many jocks don't have the brains to cut it in the business-world, so their SMV peaks in HS)

• good hair/hairline (Lebron James is a tall 6'8" mesomorph, but he has a receding hairline)

• great face

• chiseled jaw/face

• good skin/pores

• no brain problems

• no health problems

What are the odds that all of these things will happen to coincide in an individual?

I would argue that the "naturals" that women supposedly want are essentially non-existent.

CMV.

Note 1: I'm a 6'4" ectomorph. I'm not as ectomorphic as some men, but my shoulders are nothing like the guy on the right in this image. It seems so rare to get a 6'4" mesomorph. Or a 6'4" dude with shoulders like the guy on the right in the image I just linked.

Note 2: The "muscles" issue is tricky; see u/Priene's comment here about Mel Gibson and James Dean.

Note 3: I would love to know the science behind what causes all of these attractive traits. u/Eastuss says that most (all?) of these attractive traits signal that you had a lot of testosterone in utero as well as during childhood/puberty/adulthood. Puberty seems particularly important in terms of broad shoulders and stuff like that. I wonder whether all men could have their hormones optimized in the future if indeed it comes down to testosterone; I wonder whether the science of how testosterone shapes these traits could be unraveled and used to help all men have these traits. There's obviously height, too; height is supposed to be a genetic thing that runs in families, so it can't be hormonal. I don't know whether broad shoulders run in families. I suppose that high testosterone (and low anxiety and high extroversion and a good Big-Five personality-profile) mixed with all the physiological stuff leads you to get laid a lot at a young age, as soon as you enter puberty. u/Eastuss mentions that this timing is important, because if you lose your virginity at 15 years old then you're off to the races in terms of developing into a "natural" man with jockish confidence as opposed to an introverted/spergy/nervous/uncool/stunted man.

u/Eastuss mentions:

High Testosterone since when you're in your mother's belly to adulthood, good health and good nutrition, and physical activity, will theoretically all have impact on your height, your facial bone structure, your physical ratios, and your muscle/fat ratios too. Lot of these are established things I believe.

And:

Well, the "right" social traits... Anything that makes you popular, likerable, seductive. And the time limits are those imposed by the social context. Like, having sex for the first time around 16/17 (earlier the better for men?).

Note 4: u/Eastuss claims that men who work out hard at the gym and watch their macros (or use TRP/PUA to become smoother with women) disgust women because it's trickery. How strong is the preference for physiological/neurological "naturals?" How real is that disgust for physiological/neurological non-naturals? u/Eastuss makes an analogy with cosmetics and push-up bras that is certainly interesting, but I think should be challenged as potentially being a flawed analogy:

I think men wouldn't care if a woman is not natural for casual sex, but would care for LTR. You date a woman for 10 weeks and she eventually wants sex with you, and you realise her breasts were padded and are actually saggy, you realise she has acne and she looks dull without make-up, you realise her hair are in fact curly and dyed, you realise her waist/hips ratio is not as low as you expected because she was using proper clothing/proper colors. While this is not a problem for most men early on because of the honeymoon phase and because she keeps up her aesthetics most of the time, in 5 or 10 years, with some fat and wrinkles, while you crave for sexual diversity, how are you feeling love for her if you don't find her attractive? I don't know for other men, but I wouldn't.

And then there are also everything she promised to be that she isn't, she said she was good in bed, that she was "wilde", that she "wasn't like the other girls", but she's dull, she's a bad sexual partner, her libido is low and got lower with time.

This is the same for men too. This is not meant to demoralize you, but this is to tell you that, technically, wanting the other to be as honest as possible is in YOUR interests but not in THEIR interests.