Q4All: Do you support work towards equality of outcome, equality of opportunity, or neither and why?

daveofmars · 2018-03-07T00:36:24+00:00

Equality of opportunity? Yes. Equality of outcome? NO.

While it sounds good to have 50% of CEO's and government officials to be men/women, what does that mean for everything else. Should preschool teachers be 50% men? Should construction works be 50% women?

And why stop at sex? Asians make up 5.6% of the US population, according to the census. That means Asians can only be 5.6% of total number of doctors. 5.6% of engineers, or coders, or anything else. That also means they MUST be 5.6% of coal miners and garbage truck drivers.

Are you really going to put in a governmental policy that forces people to work jobs they don't like and deny people the jobs they do like so you can have perfect representation across the board?

That's not going to happen. What IS going to happen is that politicians looking for votes will promise these measures to minorities in very select fields to ensure they stay in office while ignoring any detrimental effects those policies have on the rest of us. That's all "Equity" is anyways - a strategy to get votes.

TheBookOfSeil · 2018-03-07T00:41:43+00:00

I support equality of opportunity. I think equality of outcome leads to less capable people getting jobs based on gender rather than skill, which is obviously a bad thing for the company and people involved.

Littleknownfacts · 2018-03-07T00:17:42+00:00

"I believe if we had half our companies and half our countries run by women, and half our homes run by men, things would be better. We know our companies would be more productive. If you use the full talents of the population, you're more productive. We know our homes would be happier." -Sheryl Sandberg

Maybe companies would be more productive, maybe they wouldn't be. But we are under no obligation to work at maximum productivity. People won't necessarily be happier if they are more productive, especially if they are being forced into it.

Scatre · 2018-03-07T00:04:22+00:00

You'd have to be insane to want equality of outcome. Women and men don't necessarily want the same things.

Salty-Bastard · 2018-03-07T00:39:40+00:00

Equal opportunity is a cornerstone of a great society.

Equal outcome sounds like a cross between communist dreams and the "everybody gets a trophy" set.

Atlas_B_Shruggin · 2018-03-07T00:22:08+00:00

I don't believe in equality except as meant in the US constitution, ie no hereditary aristocracy with more special "rights"

[deleted] · 2018-03-07T00:02:56+00:00

Scandinavian countries don't support that trend of 50 / 50 splits with larger 'equalities'. So I would support equality of opportunity

squidracer · 2018-03-07T04:03:46+00:00

We've had equality of opportunity. Women as a whole just simply don't care as much about work as men.

Honestly, most men only care enough to support their family, or pay their child support. Why the fuck would women volunteer to work 70+ hours a week?

Workchoices · 2018-03-07T11:54:18+00:00

Equal opportunity? Sure.

Equal outcome? If 50% of CEOs were women then those companies would fold and our economy would collapse.

Iq distribution is not equal. Almost all women hover around 90-110 IQ , but men? We have a lot of idiots and a lot of geniuses. At the highest IQ bracket its 20 to 1 men to women.

So to make up that gender quota you are going to have to pull from the average female IQ basket and those women running companies.., when they try and compete they will get eaten alive.

gasparddelanuit · 2018-03-07T00:28:54+00:00

I support equality of opportunity, but not equality of outcome unless it happens naturally. By naturally, I mean without trying to engineer that result against the free choices of individuals with equal opportunity.

Even equality of opportunity is not a clear cut thing, because people have different ideas about what that looks like. For instance, feminists believe that women are grossly and systemically disadvantaged, and that men are greatly privileged in the West, yet MRAs argue it's the other way around. So, equality of opportunity is not what one particular advocacy group says. All voices have to be heard and a dispassionate humanist approach has to be the way forward on this front, that's assuming one is interested in a fair approach.

whitebunny87 · 2018-03-07T01:17:43+00:00

neither. men and women are generally interested in different things, no point trying to force it.

if we were going to change anything, though, i would like for traditionally feminine occupations to be valued again so that girls don't feel like they're worthless if they're not pursuing engineering or IT dorks. most girls don't actually want to go into STEM, they're just told that this is the pinnacle of achievement and anything else is lazy.

sublimemongrel · 2018-03-07T01:21:02+00:00

Opportunity, obv. People's choices still matter.

RockinSocksII · 2018-03-07T01:28:13+00:00

My viewpoint is let people do what they want to do and don't interfere in any way.

ContrasexualWoman · 2018-03-07T01:42:23+00:00

Equality of opportunity, definitely NOT equality of outcome. I'm a pretty die-hard proponent of meritocracy.

yasee · 2018-03-07T01:46:07+00:00

I don't really know tbh. But I am curious to know whether you think "equality of outcome" has been achieved and what falls into that category

AstuteBlackMan · 2018-03-07T01:54:01+00:00

I'm doing none of these but I support those who pursue equal opportunity. In the end it's a waste of time for me to focus on helping others have an opportunity when I haven't taken advantage of my own.

the_calibre_cat · 2018-03-07T05:12:08+00:00

"I believe if we had half our companies and half our countries run by women, and half our homes run by men, things would be better. We know our companies would be more productive. If you use the full talents of the population, you're more productive. We know our homes would be happier." -Sheryl Sandberg

To be blunt, I don't believe for one red second that, when she says "half," she means "half." Turbo-feminists like her have a habit of believing equality means subjecting everyone to the same set of rules, and unironically believing that this makes people equal.

Actually, she probably doesn't believe that, as I'm pretty sure that she's probably on board with the alphabet soup of Federal and state agencies that give free shit to women etc, and whatever other causes du jour that TheMarySue or Everyday Feminism is butthurt about this week.

Either way, giving both a fish and a monkey the right to climb one tree a day doesn't make them equal - and feminists know that.

MisterJose · 2018-03-07T05:15:17+00:00

There is no basis for suggesting that unless 50% of everything is women then there is unfair bias. In no profession or work sector anywhere are people equally represented. As long as people are being treated fairly, that's all there is to worry about.

newName543456 · 2018-03-07T08:44:54+00:00

Equality of opportunity depending on exact definition may be workable, problem is there is no universal agreement as to what exactly constitutes state of equal opportunities.

If you mean stuff like gender/race being completely excluded from evaluation of competence and evaluation being dependent only on relevant skills, that's fine.

Problem is, some individuals dogmatically assume that just because outcomes aren't exactly equal, there must be some sort of unfairness going on.

Lacy_Drays · 2018-03-07T09:04:32+00:00

I think we can only get strong CEOs and leaders when those CEOs and leaders really can make it to the top. Man or woman - I don't care - but that person needs to be strong and fierce and prove his or her competence - that way we truly do have the best, fittest leaders of them all.

And I believe women very much can achieve this as well - but if we change the system and get there by quotas - we're just going to end up having weaker leaders than we probably could have - if the competition was FAIR and didn't pay special attention to gender or race.

owleyedgirl · 2018-03-07T09:11:45+00:00

I think I'd prefer to work towards equality of opportunity... though of course, I also feel that if we had TRUE equality of opportunity, equality of outcome would follow.

(I don't believe we have true equality of opportunity, for the record, but.)

the-4th-survivor · 2018-03-07T13:09:32+00:00

Nobody will admit to wanting to enforce equality of outcome and yet that's exactly what we do in the West with our affirmative action and our diversity programs and our constant focus on funneling women into STEM careers and positions of power. It's pretty clear that Western society as a whole does believe in enforcing equality of outcome.

As for Sheryl Sandberg, she's flat out wrong. Studies have shown that married couples are the most happy when they follow traditional gender roles, and if women were really such great leaders outside of the home we would see more female leaders. Nothing stops any woman from starting up her own company or running for political office and yet the women who do this are a small minority.

[deleted] · 2018-03-07T16:17:14+00:00

I support the whole equality of outcome work insofar as I think in order for people to be satisfied with whatever the balance really ends up being, we need to have a strong believable case of "hey look we tried for equality, really hard" on the books.

FairlyNaive · 2018-03-07T07:46:17+00:00

I support neither.
Equality of outcome is an abomination that destroys ambition and talent.
Equality of opportunity is a feel good story people tell themselves to sleep better at night. Tell me that kid in a wheelchair can have equal opportunity to play in an NBA or that 70 iq guy has an equal opportunity to have a phd or that man has equal opportunity to give birth.

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Jammerly1 · 2018-03-07T02:18:44+00:00

Why should the world only reflect male ambition? Burn it down and build it female.

wtknight · 2018-03-07T02:31:38+00:00

Do half of men even want to run homes?

Willow-girl · 2018-03-07T14:08:24+00:00

Equality of opportunity.

I have no interest in trying to pound square pegs into round holes.

S1imdragxn · 2018-03-07T14:32:25+00:00

Sure let’s do it who gives a fuck at this point

The ship of chaos is our vessel

eliechallita · 2018-03-07T21:38:20+00:00

I support equality of opportunity. I think that you must've misunderstood Sandberg's statement there: The point is that she doesn't think there's any objective reason why, in a completely unbiased society, the CEO/housespouse split would not be 50/50. She's assuming that women are just as capable of running companies as men are, and that men are just as good at caring for households as women, and that the fact that the split isn't even is due to societal gendered bias.

damaskrose · 2018-03-07T07:21:55+00:00

I think it depends on how you define "equality of outcome". For example is a 50/50 split among CEO's considered "equal" if most tech CEO's are still male and most "pink collar" CEO's are female? What if most big-business CEO's are male and most smaller-business CEO's are female?

I think a 50/50 split among CEO's isn't just achievable, it's imminent. The proportion of female business owners increases every year and shows no signs of slowing down. But that doesn't mean they'll be working in the same industries, or earning the same income.

Title	Q4All: Do you support work towards equality of outcome, equality of opportunity, or neither and why?
Author	lxnarratorxl
Upvotes	5
Comments	70
Date	March 7, 2018 12:01 AM UTC (8 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/82jwdz/q4all_do_you_support_work_towards_equality_of/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/q4all-do-you-support-work-towards-equality-of.263347 https://theredarchive.com/post/263347

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