Manosphere Contradiction

JustStatedTheObvious · 2017-08-05T17:49:31+00:00

Some of it's just lashing out, because they're still healing from their wounds.

Others are afraid of losing their anger. And the purity of their convictions. It's not much different from some of the more radical strains of feminism, or any other cause. For some of these men, uniting against common enemies is the closest thing they have to finding a world where they're not the bottom of the food chain.

Especially those who don't actually do anything.

They're terrified of losing that. So they'll drag everyone else down too, before they'll allow for the complexities of life, and risk of a society where they're not given more respect than they probably deserve.

squidracer · 2017-08-05T18:19:46+00:00

Because women aren't truly going to support any movements against their personal best interests. Many of the recent red pill women on YouTube have been mostly tradcons who still want male servitude, they just package it differently.

It's not that mgtow don't believe your intentions, but it's still a male space. I believe most men in mgtow and trp want those spaces to remain male safe spaces.

figthief · 2017-08-05T18:46:54+00:00

men dont want women to support him or endorse men as a class. they want women to admire him and fuck him. any insistence of wanting women to understand or speak for them is a rationalization. "it's nice you "support" me random Internet female, but what I'm really mad about is my inability to fuck or influence you. but thanks for the kind words!"

exit_sandman · 2017-08-06T01:06:47+00:00

Has anyone else noticed this?

Yes. Case in point: Rollo (basically the most prolific redpiller) got into the face of GWW (basically the most prolific female MRA) for more or less the reasons you named in here.

As much as I respect Rollo, I considered this both unfair and uncalled for considering that I am pretty convinced GWW's devotion to the cause is genuine.

That said, it depends on where you are. When GWW made an AMA at TRP; she had a pretty positive reception IIRC (did I just use 4 acronyms in one sentence! I have to get off the internet).

ThatGreekLady · 2017-08-06T04:23:52+00:00

The MRAs are ok with women so you could try getting involved with them. MGTOW literally think all women are pure evil, so no reason to bother with them. A lot of RPillers fall into the MGTOW territory.

Dissentient · 2017-08-06T09:34:10+00:00

Why is manosphere supposed to be treated like some monolithic entity when every part of it that you listed is completely different form others and most of them hate each other? You need to examine each of those communities individually.

Bottom0ftheBarrel · 2017-08-05T17:59:29+00:00

The manosphere isn't really about men's rights. It is primarily low-value men lamenting their position in the social hierarchy.

Also, I don't really get being all vocal with your support for a group you're not a part of. I mean, support that shit silently if you want but leave the actual talking and activism to the people directly involved.

gasparddelanuit · 2017-08-05T18:01:57+00:00

The rejection of women in any guise is something that is more common amongst some MGTOW, since they have chosen to abandon the system, rather than play its game or try to reform it. They have no real use for women’s sympathy or help.

MRAs are generally quite welcoming towards women who support their cause.

TRP/PUA types just want to fuck and date women on more androcentric terms. They’re not really looking to change the system, even though they may be sympathetic to the other wings of the manosphere, given that how society treats men still does affect them.

If the manosphere were one united front, you would have more of a point, but the men in it are pursuing very different things.

monster_strapon · 2017-08-05T18:31:40+00:00

I don't know, I can't speak for the movement but it's beyond me why any woman would want to interact with self-described incels or redpillers outside of pure boredom or a desire for internet conversation. Even as a man the misogyny wears down on me.

Pope_Lucious · 2017-08-05T18:42:55+00:00

Well a distinction should be pointed out. MRAs believe society is out of balance and necessary reforms are needed in order to help fix things. MGTOWs believe this is a waste of time because gynocentrism is so rooted in us, the for-women bias will always eventually win out. MGTOWs are choosing to simply walk away. There is no incentive for a MGTOW to welcome a woman with any professed beliefs. And there are many reasons for the MRAs to view you with healthy skepticism.

UA_Hammer · 2017-08-05T18:48:48+00:00

if you're like me and you think women voting is the problem the opinion of women on the subject is naturally irrelevant

the_calibre_cat · 2017-08-05T19:19:13+00:00

I think I've noticed it all off once, and it was in the comments section under an article written by a feminist who was enraged by the way her son was treated when he was accused of rape in college. The article began with her extolling her feminist cred, how she had marched in somewhere and was an acolyte of some famous feminist's. And she expresses her anger over what happened with her son, who was accused of rape by a classmate, and the school summarily did its thing, that it does, to guys accused of rape.

A loooootta the comments were unfriendly towards her, basically angry that she only got it when it was one of her own on the line, that had her son been fine she'd be picketing and protesting for all the sorts of things feminists picket and protest for, these days.

I think that was unfair, regardless of how she got there, here was a feminist whose eyes had opened to some of the overreach caused by the feminist blindness towards men's experience. Otherwise, I think dudes are pretty receptive to women like that. Your typical, turbo-feminist girl is someone I'm just not interested in interacting with other than surface-level cordially.

A turbo-feminist girl who at least respects the differing lived experiences of men and speaks up about them? Well shit. THOSE are the women who make ME far more comfortable with embracing feminism myself, and not only are they good friends, they're romantic priorities, as well.

GuitarsAreGettingOld · 2017-08-05T20:48:47+00:00

Really?

It's been a while since I was an MRA (thank god), but from what I remember, women were welcomed in the community.

And Karen Straughan, Christina Hoff-Summers and Professor Janice Fiamengo were held in highest regards. (And rightfully so).

Has the MRM changed so much that women are treated with hostility now? As a former MRA I'd really like to know.

Drippyskippy · 2017-08-05T21:34:00+00:00

Yet when a female who is very much in favor of men's rights and is supportive of MGTOW appears, she is typically called out as a liar, a chameleon/fake NAWALT, seeking male attention, trying to invade the movement, etc. Not all MGTOW or MRAs do this of course...there are many who accept help from any source whether you're male or female.

I think its great that there are women who can understand MGTOW's or are informed enough to know about issues men face and actually take them seriously. Just look at the Honey Badger Brigade. They are generally a pretty well regarded primarily female MRA group. I have no problems with women being a MRA's. Hell, I think the MRA movement needs women, because people will actually listen to women when they talk about men's issues. When men talk about men's issues they usually aren't taken as seriously (must be that male privilege :P). You keep doing you and sticking up for what you believe, I wouldn't put much stock in the haters.

But there remains a good number of manospherians that remind me of SJWs, who seemingly enjoy their status as oppressed and don't actually want women to care about them despite claiming the contrary.

This is something you just have to accept. All groups have their toxic bad apples. Whether its some MRA's that genuinely hate women or feminists that genuinely hate men. There are also people in these groups who love to play the victim card.

theiamsamurai · 2017-08-06T01:14:36+00:00

TBH a lot of them are probably just bitter you don't wanna fuck them.

DarkLord0chinChin · 2017-08-05T17:59:29+00:00

Supportive women are called that because what can one woman achieve or represent? Feminism is a war against men, and manosphere is a war against feminism, so defectors really serve little purpose. Women are the enemy. A defecting enemy is still an enemy, probably a spy.

What do you do? Do not seek anyone's approval and fight against who you think is wrong.

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gasparddelanuit · 2017-08-05T18:45:21+00:00

It seems to me that women are very welcome in the MRA movement.

Meet the Women of the Men's Rights Movement

RealityTastesGreat · 2017-08-05T19:58:53+00:00

The Narcissism of Small Differences. It the case with all human beliefs. Nothing specific to the manosphere

Throwawayingaccount · 2017-08-05T23:24:51+00:00

I've spent a large amount of time in the MRA community here. Not so much on the MGTOW or RP community, and I have not noticed this phenomena. In the MRA community, it seems to be the exact opposite. So long as the woman in question either legitimately wants to help, or has legitimate questions (Even if a bit instagatory), they are welcomed with open arms. The hivemind oppinion seems to be "A wonderful ally, as their claims cannot be as easily dismissed as self-serving."

Now, obvious attempts for trollfishing are shot down. Inquiries from someone who was previously VERY strongly and vocally anti-MRA are generally met with skepticism, such as Laci Greene.

ThorLives · 2017-08-06T02:50:05+00:00

Personally, I haven't noticed this, although I don't pay much attention to those groups. I think a fair number of MGTOW and MRAs are men who have gotten burned in the relationship game. (I don't mean that as a way to discredit them, by the way.) Maybe they're divorced and feel jaded by it. Maybe they had a shitty dating life.

They're angry about their experience of their life with regard to women. I think those guys are just lashing out at women as a group. There's also the fact that, if a man is attracted to a woman and she isn't interested, it can be a daily challenge. It also poses a threat to the male group dynamics. If she ends up hooking-up with/dating/marrying one of the guys in the group, it can produce jealousy and animosity between the men in that group. That's also why women sometimes aren't welcome into an all-guy group (e.g. a role-playing group). The introduction of a woman can result in a struggle among multiple men to get her (very much so if she's attractive). If one of them succeeds, it results in jealousy, animosity and maybe even attempts to turn the group against him. If none of them do, it can still cause a level of frustration to have something that you want right in front of you but be unable to have it (because she's not interested). By analogy, it's easier to be hungry when there's no food around than it is to be hungry and have the sight and smell of food right in front of you (but you can't have it because she doesn't want you).

IIHotelYorba · 2017-08-06T05:55:13+00:00

I tend to see this from the YouTube commenters and chantards but VERY rarely from anyone who matters. Every once in a while you'll see someone who is known for being a contrarian shit stirrer doing something very similar to it.

It's a very omega attitude and I wouldn't even bother dealing with people who act that way. Tell them to fuck off.

DebatesNotBans · 2017-08-06T14:36:45+00:00

Yet when a female who is very much in favor of men's rights and is supportive of MGTOW appears, she is typically called out as a liar

I have honestly never seen this happen. If anything, they'll ask questions to make sure she isnt a "LE GAMUR GIRL" equivalent, but that's about it.

incels

If you DO want to get into this topic, it is objectively true that women cannot be lonely, as they always have options of people to hang out with and date and befriend and fuck and talk to, etc. I assure you, you are COMPLETELY UNABLE to find ONE (1) woman who cannot find a boyfriend. Not one.

Whenever a woman claims to be "lonely", "incel", "foreveralone", "robot", etc., she is most definitely called a liar. (with reason!)

LewisCross · 2017-08-06T19:17:32+00:00

The only reason I oppose MRAs like Paul Elam is not because they're toxic, but because they're ineffective. And it's not even because they don't know what they're doing. It's because they're agitating for something they will never, ever be able to get. Men's rights and "equality" for men is a pipe dream. Men don't mobilize en masse for "equality". There is no such entity as "men" as a monolith social or voting bloc or special interest group. Men don't agitate for rights for men or the interests of men. Men agitate for their own individual rights and interests, or at most, for the rights and interest of their tribes.

I really don't think men want women's political or moral support. what men want from women is sex. And if women aren't forthcoming with sex, frankly, men don't have any use for you, and shouldn't.

angels_fan · 2017-08-06T21:20:28+00:00

I've never heard anyone say this about Karen Straugn (sp?)

She is beloved by all in the manosphere.

[deleted] · 2017-08-07T02:32:16+00:00

It's really simple. Actions speak louder than words and men's rights is a joke of a movement that will never get anything accomplished.

As for mgtow, you can't support mgtow. Either you get in a man's way or you don't. Being supportive is a contradiction.

If you want to chill with the counter-culture boys, just do it without drawing attention and shut up about it.

SeemedGood · 2017-08-10T15:32:20+00:00

Has anyone else noticed this? What do you think the point is of lamenting that women don't give a fuck about men, only to attempt to drive away any that do?

There are certainly men in both spheres who adopt a victim status and externalize the sources of their grievances. That is unfortunate, but, frankly, your help doesn't help. We don't need it.

We, like you, need to focus on elevating our own consciousness and mastering ourselves.. If you want to "help" do that. Become more conscious, become more self-aware, become more introspective and spread the word of the importance of that path among women. they desperately need to hear that particular message.

Electra_Cute · 2017-08-05T17:59:32+00:00

Almost every individual engages in contradictory behavior, has contradictory opinions and holds double standards.

Some individuals enjoy playing the victim and making up problems no matter what, that will never change. It has less to do with females and more to do with the males who are engaging in that behavior themselves. One could give every social justice warrior, men's rights activist, MGTOW, feminist everything that they want and they would still find an issue to complain about, because that is just how some individuals are. Look at how some of the male users on here will look for a reason to paint the male as the victim and the female as the "evil" one in virtually every scenario.

The external factors do not play into this as much as most people would think they do, not everyone's attitude towards life is based on those external factors.

GermanEgo · 2017-08-05T18:00:26+00:00

Those women aren't trusted because they twist what they are saying into something that directly benefits them too. Which wouldnt be a problem if the solution or whatever they are saying actually made sense from a male POV of fulfillment and happiness. Typically those women come from a position where they expect you to be somewhat of a societal martyr

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUyvRVtrpBs

In order for you to care about me, you need to recognize my needs, otherwise its just an empty statement. No one is gonna care about that except myself and some of my genuine close friends(even they are questionable)

If you beleive those women, cool, good for you, now go do what they tell you to do in order to reach their dream utopia. Personally im just gonna do what makes most sense to me. Do you think your image could hurt you? Do you openly identify as a MRA on facebook?

BookwormJane · 2017-08-05T19:04:59+00:00

Of course I have realized this. That's when I realized the whole TRP theory is bullshit. I can't deal with hypocritical ways of thinking.

If a woman actually defends men's rights, she's a unicorn and unicorns don't exist - AWALT, she's no different from any other.

If a woman fights against sexism - AWALT, she's a feminist bitch.

Either way, women are ALWAYS wrong to them.

Fact is, many of these guys refuse to admit that their love/sexual life is lame thanks to their own attitudes and thoughts, they are the only ones responsible for their failure - but admitting that is painful and requires self-improvement , which many of them are too lazy to try . So they blame women's supposed "hypergamy" for their failure.

Also, some of them are not even consciously aware of this process I just mentioned. They are 100% sure it's women's fault.

Title	Manosphere Contradiction
Author	ClarityofDisaster
Upvotes	14
Comments	173
Date	August 5, 2017 5:42 PM UTC (9 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/6rt3ye/manosphere_contradiction/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/manosphere-contradiction.266600 https://theredarchive.com/post/266600

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