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Why faithfulness of men is so much important to women? Is it a social construct, or is it about the man's resources exclusivity?

Eastuss

January 20, 2017
5 upvotes
/r/PurplePillDebate
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Post Information
Title Why faithfulness of men is so much important to women? Is it a social construct, or is it about the man's resources exclusivity?
Author

Eastuss

Upvotes 5
Comments 173
Date January 20, 2017 8:18 AM UTC
(9 years ago)
Subreddit Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/5p2ria/why_faithfulness_of_men_is_so_much_important_to/
Archive Link https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/why-faithfulness-of-men-is-so-much-important-to.270521
https://theredarchive.com/post/270521
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Comments

[–]dragoness_leclerq🚑 Vagina Red Cross 🚑5 points6 points7 points 9 years ago (38 children) | Copy Link

In my opinion, it's a little of both and then some.

If we all lived in a society where male sexual infidelity was the norm I'm certain many more women would readily accept this as just "the way things are". Doesn't mean they'd like or be okay with it, but I'm willing to bet you hear far less outrage about it and fewer divorces.

However, to me me personally, male sexual fidelity is about "resource exclusivity", as well as respect, attraction and sacrifice. If I agree to be married and never touch a young, hot 24yr old - with all his looks and stamina - again, I would expect my husband to do the same. And I think a lot of women feel this way. Especially in today's world where people marry based on things like love and mutual attraction, rather than just resources.

[–]Eastuss༼ つ ▀̿_▀̿ ༽つ1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (37 children) | Copy Link

Male sexual infidelity is kind of a norm, everybody at some point realise that most men would enjoy diversity in sexual partners. If it wasn't already kind of a norm, women wouldn't want to prevent it so much.

Just like it is a norm to watch porn but most women I know are over reacting to it.

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.8 points9 points10 points 9 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

It's not the norm, hell, we used to criminalize it (and those laws were written by men btw). The fact that in the past (and to this day) some women "look the other way" does not make it "the norm" wrt monogamous relationships.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

Well, male sexual infidelity isn't "the norm" only in the sense that most men don't cheat because they can't - they're not attractive enough to cheat. Most men would cheat if they could and not get caught.

Infidelity was criminalized not because it's not normal; but because cheating by men or women degrades the social order, leads to divorce which leads to kids not having parents and intact families, and leads to other crimes, like homicide, assault, sexual assault, etc.

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.7 points8 points9 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I don't agree that most men would cheat if they could. And the reasons behind criminalizing infidelity are less important. I just used that to point out that it's not the "norm" and it wasn't in the past either.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points 9 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

most men don't cheat because they can't - they're not attractive enough to cheat. Most men would cheat if they could and not get caught.

Does your wife know you think this?

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Every woman knows this about their husbands

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

My partner could easily get other women. They look at him all the time in the street. But he says that cheating is wrong if you love someone. I think the same.

Jeez it wouldn't be fun being your wife if you have that attitude.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Indeed. Cheating is wrong if you love someone. That doesn't mean don't want to do it. It also means men want to and can't.

[–]Eastuss༼ つ ▀̿_▀̿ ༽つ0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

and we also used to forbid divorce, now it's a norm. your argument is not valid.

what i said was a norm is not the fact of doing the infidelity but the fact of being capable of it. most men are designed to be polygamous

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Ok whether someone is capable of doing something doesn't make it the "norm". You're using weird language to convey your thoughts.

[–]Eastuss༼ つ ▀̿_▀̿ ༽つ0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

I agree that I may not choose the right words.

"Men are pervert and cheaters" is something everything tried to tell me since fore ever. I learned to hide that aspect of me because I was told I wouldn't attract females because of it. Most men I know do aknowledge me that they're the same, but hiding it because that's the proper social frame.

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Putting aside the fact that "pervert" is subjective, those are choices anyone can make.

[–]Eastuss༼ つ ▀̿_▀̿ ༽つ0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

It's the general idea that is important.

[–]ZoidbergluverBluePurple Pill Woman1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (24 children) | Copy Link

Then couldn't you argue that female infidelity is the norm as well? That humans just aren't meant to be monogamous?

Women cheat as much as men, and I have heard red pillers talk about a "7 year itch" where supposedly women can't stay attracted to a man for longer than 7 years. It's based on the theory that it takes about 7 years to get pregnant and raise a kid to the point where she is ready to get pregnant by someone else. But take that with a grain of salt, I'm not sure about any evidence backing that.

[–]Eastuss༼ つ ▀̿_▀̿ ༽つ0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (23 children) | Copy Link

Female hypergamy is a norm, yes. Humans aren't really meant to anything, men and women try to get the best for them but both can't get the best at the same time. The most recent strategy that emerged was the unbreakable marriage which was supposed to be the neutral spot.

What you talk about seems like hypergamy in action. There's no evidence backing that, but on life's point of view it's seems like an efficient strategy.

Current marriage, with the divorce aspect, is beneficial for hypergamy. But not for polygamy.

But yeah, grain of salt everywhere too.

[–]ZoidbergluverBluePurple Pill Woman0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (22 children) | Copy Link

But my point is that both genders are hypergamous and polygamous. Which is supported by both genders being statistically very similar in how often they cheat.

[–]Eastuss༼ つ ▀̿_▀̿ ༽つ0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (21 children) | Copy Link

There are probably statistics that could show that the woman is more hypergamous (initiator of most divorces and break ups, I remember having read stuff about that) and men are more polygamous (most resilient to commitment, but where do you find that kind of statistics D:)

[–]ZoidbergluverBluePurple Pill Woman0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (20 children) | Copy Link

Men and women initiate break ups equally. Men and women cheat equally. So what is your evidence that men are polygamous and women are hypergamous? If we act exactly the same, we probably have the same motives.

[–]Eastuss༼ つ ▀̿_▀̿ ༽つ0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (18 children) | Copy Link

no. women initiate break ups more. see divorce statistics.

[–]ZoidbergluverBluePurple Pill Woman0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (17 children) | Copy Link

Nope. Men and women initiate break ups at the same rate.

[–][deleted] 9 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link

[deleted]

[–]Eastuss༼ つ ▀̿_▀̿ ༽つ0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

And I disagree because of my personal experience and observations and because of the divorce statistics! (are we ever going to stop? :D)

[–][deleted] 10 points11 points12 points 9 years ago (42 children) | Copy Link

Isn't faithfulness important to everyone in a relationship? There are so many horror stories of women cheating on both TRP and reddit as a whole.

[–]BubbleAndSqueakkAlfalfa AF0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

My thoughts exactly.

[–]Offhisgame0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

If cheat on trp guys too

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

There are so many horror stories of women cheating on both TRP and reddit as a whole.

Yes, I cheat on TRP and reddit all the time. I visit other discussion forums.

RP = confirmed.

[–]Eastuss༼ つ ▀̿_▀̿ ༽つ0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (38 children) | Copy Link

There is no such assumption in this thread. It could deserve its own thread.

[–][deleted] 9 points10 points11 points 9 years ago (37 children) | Copy Link

But why is the question gendered? Are you asking why is faithfulness important overall? Or why specifically a man's faithfulness is important to woman that doesn't overlap with the general reasons of why it's important.

Maybe I'm reading wrong but the way you wrote it implies faithfulness of men to women specifically is notable, and I don't really see why.

[–]theiamsamuraiRavishment Realist3 points4 points5 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Because the debates in this subreddit are meant to be gendered, since men and women are pretty different when it comes to sexual strategy, and statistical distribution of SMV. We're a sexually dimorphic tournament leaning species.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

But why is the question gendered?

Because the consequences aren't the same. A woman cheating on her man can lead to the man being completely left without any heirs. A man cheating on a woman just leads to another woman having kids. There's no such thing as false maternity.

[–][deleted] 9 years ago* (34 children) | Copy Link

[deleted]

[–][deleted] 10 points11 points12 points 9 years ago (33 children) | Copy Link

Maybe few things will differ but the fundamental answer is the same for all monogamous couples. Man-woman, woman-woman, man-waifu, etc

It's a betrayal of trust. Both of you agree to be exclusive, sex is intimate between the couple. When one party cheats, they're being disrespectful, untrustworthy, indifferent or even cruel to their partner and effectively throwing the mutual agreements of a relationship down the drain. It's one of the biggest dealbreakers and causes for separations.

[–][deleted] 9 years ago* (32 children) | Copy Link

[deleted]

[–][deleted] 8 points9 points10 points 9 years ago* (21 children) | Copy Link

If you don't understand the appeal of a monogamous relationship, that's fine. Lots of people do open relationships or no relationships.

Would you be okay with your significant other cheating on you, having sex with other men besides you, behind your back? Why? Her reaction is prob not that different than yours.

[–]Eastuss༼ つ ▀̿_▀̿ ༽つ0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (20 children) | Copy Link

I would process the thing logically, not with emotions. I would probably not want to pursue the relationship, I would probably feel betrayed and insulted, sure. But women seem to be raped to the core when they get cheated on.

[–][deleted] 7 points8 points9 points 9 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

People react differently.

You realize men kill women significantly more often than the other way around from crimes of passion and being cheated on. Fear/insecurity of being cheated, cucked by a woman is so widespread all over the internet especially TRP. Clearly being cheated on has great emotional impact for both genders.

But it sounds like you don't really care for monogamy at all. Also if you understand why someone might feel betrayed and insulted, why would you phrase it like you have zero clue why someone doesn't want to get cheated on?

[–]Eastuss༼ つ ▀̿_▀̿ ༽つ1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

I'm not really speaking about cheating.

I have an example that can help. I know several women that started their relationship knowing their boyfriend would watch porn alone. They wouldn't forbid it at first, but they eventually slowly get pissed by it and forbid it, because it is unbearable for them to imagine such thing.

Probs are, if they start an open relationship with defined boundaries, they'll eventually not be capable of accepting it at some point. Making me wonder why do they care so much about it. Most people here talk about cheating and how it's bad because this is breaking the rules, but I strongly think women would react the same even if it was perfectly allowed.

[–]Falchion12956 points7 points8 points 9 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

I would process the thing logically, not with emotions.

People don't base their action on logic, not even you, even if you think you do.

[–]Eastuss༼ つ ▀̿_▀̿ ༽つ0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Of course I over estimate my reaction, but it won't be as hardcore as women's.

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.5 points6 points7 points 9 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

Love is emotional, not logical. In a monogamous relationship sex is fun and you can have sex for sex's sake but it's also an expression of that love. Personally, I wouldn't be able to separate the two so easily.

From a logical standpoint, I suppose you could argue sex often leads to deeper feelings which could place your relationship at risk, so that's another reason to prioritize fidelity.

[–]Eastuss༼ つ ▀̿_▀̿ ༽つ0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

Well yes, serotonin, dopamine and oxytocin are responsible for feelings and are all produced by sex.

I can easily separate feelings and sex. But I won't pursue the woman I just had sex with while I have a great relation with my 10 year long marriage. Nobody is going to connect that much in a so short time.

[–]shogunofsarcasmI do what I want5 points6 points7 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

I would probably feel betrayed and insulted,

That is what women feel too

[–]Eastuss༼ つ ▀̿_▀̿ ༽つ0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

That is what women feel x100

[–]Me2_01 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

Youre confusing an open relationship with cheating....

[–]Eastuss༼ つ ▀̿_▀̿ ༽つ0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

Not really no. Take again that example of porn, I know many relationships that started without any boundaries regarding porn.

But the woman eventually went mad about it and decided she wouldn't allow him to watch porn any more. My bet is it would be the same if they started the relationship open, she'll eventually want restrictions.

And that's where my question come from, why is this so important?

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.2 points3 points4 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Ok porn is not the same thing as cheating.

[–]Eastuss༼ つ ▀̿_▀̿ ༽つ0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

for a good portion of women I know it is consciously or unconsciously, in the sends that some of them do acknowledge it not being wrong but end up not sustaining the thought of it

[–]Me2_01 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

I believe this generation has lower self esteem than previous generations. I mean the answer is obvious: insecuriry, but are you asking the right question?

Maybe investigate why everyones self esteem is lower, hint: its probably the internet and social media.

[–]Eastuss༼ つ ▀̿_▀̿ ༽つ0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Most of the conversation I had on this thread all fall down to this: women are scared and auto destructive and men must pay for that... xD

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

But why would a woman want so much the relationship to be exclusive?

I dunno - if anything, men want a sexual relationship to be exclusive more than women do. Women seem to care a lot less about men's sexual fidelity. Men care very, very much about women's sexual fidelity.

Women obviously want sexual fidelity because she wants him to stay with her for protection and provision. Women want exclusive access to his resources so it is she, and not her AND some other woman or women, who are getting the benefits of those resources.

[–]Eastuss༼ つ ▀̿_▀̿ ༽つ0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Women seem to care a lot less about men's sexual fidelity. Men care very, very much about women's sexual fidelity.

This does not resonate at all with my life. I can foresee why women's fidelity may be more important (pregnancies...), but I actually don't see it being the top #1 quality men search in a woman (as compared to a recent post in here where faithfulness was top 1 quality women search in men).

So, you stand on a side of resources exclusivity.

[–]wtknightHardcore Romantic5 points6 points7 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

It's not just about resources. It's about emotional investment into a relationship too. When a man cheats on a woman, it hurts her emotionally. She no longer sees herself as being as beautiful and desirable as she was when he first committed to her. All of the things that she did for him are now being taken for granted by him.

[–]SetConsumesAlways Becoming0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

That's a good point, it makes her question herself. 'Am I not pretty enough for him anymore?'

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

It's not just about resources. It's about emotional investment into a relationship too.

It's not just about those two things either. It's also about her loss of interest in sex with him if he's having sex with other women. If she likes sex, then the thought of him having sex with others will generally be a turn-off. And then there's also the prospect of him having much less sex with her because he's off having sex with other women.

That's how I would see it.

[–]Sandralees4 points5 points6 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

It's definitely not about resource exclusivity since the relationship often fails (and the woman leaves) even when the man claims it didn't mean anything.

[–]nemma8830/F/UK INFP -t. Engaged2 points3 points4 points 9 years ago (23 children) | Copy Link

Being cheated on FEELZ BAD.

Possibly one of the worst emotional states there is.

I think men feel it too, but can not assume.

[–]FairlyNaiveRed Pill Man1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

Possibly one of the worst emotional states there is.

You havent been punched in the face hard enough

[–]nemma8830/F/UK INFP -t. Engaged0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Turmoil over dis-figuration? Feeling vulnerable? Please explain.

[–]FairlyNaiveRed Pill Man0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

just a poor attempt at humor

[–]nemma8830/F/UK INFP -t. Engaged1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Ah I'm not great at picking up sarcasm in text on this sub, sometimes I think people are being sarcastic when they are serious.

[–]FairlyNaiveRed Pill Man1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I'm not great at picking up sarcasm in text

we all suffer from that

[–]Eastuss༼ つ ▀̿_▀̿ ༽つ0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (15 children) | Copy Link

Why does it feel bad? What if you were in a society where having sex outside of the relationship wasn't told to be wrong?

Possibly one of the worst emotional states there is.

I thought the worst was rape.

[–]Sandralees3 points4 points5 points 9 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

Why does it feel bad

Are you a human or an alien?

[–]Eastuss༼ つ ▀̿_▀̿ ༽つ0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

I probably formulated myself badly. Admitting you don't constrain exclusivity to your male partner, would it feel bad if he was to have sex with other women while staying romantic and involved in your own relationship?

[–]Sandralees2 points3 points4 points 9 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

If there's such an agreement in place then I don't see why there would be a problem.

[–]Eastuss༼ つ ▀̿_▀̿ ༽つ0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

I think there would be a problem for most women. Most women I know start relationships perfectly knowing their man is going to watch porn when they are alone, but slowly get mad at it until they forbid it to their partner.

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.7 points8 points9 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

That's so weird to me. This porn thing you keep bringing up. As long as it doesn't become some sort of obsession, I do not care that my husband watches porn. That has become "normalized."

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I can't help but feel like there's a story here...

[–]Eastuss༼ つ ▀̿_▀̿ ༽つ0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I can feel how they feel and why it would be a problem for them. It's all insecurity and it's pretty easy to understand what happens in their head. If you don't have that problem, that's perfect keep it up. Maybe it's also cultural. In my place, women are sometimes entitled to pride, I often hear "I stab him if he cheats" and some of them actually do it.

[–]nemma8830/F/UK INFP -t. Engaged1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Possibly one of the worst emotional states there is. I thought the worst was rape

Maybe the -absolute- worst is rape - I don't know for sure.

Personally, I know some poly groups and some of my best friends are poly. I don't think anything they do is wrong - I do think it takes a lot of work, and they do tend to have the same issues if 'The rules' are broken. I think they still feel jealousy in some form though rationalize by the fact they are safe and secure.
I have participated in a don't ask don't tell open relationship, which I was not overly comfortable with (in hindsight).

It's hard to put myself in the position of growing up in a society maybe where it's completely normal to have sex outside a relationship - but based on my experience I would put forward there are more than 1 factor in why it feels bad (NB; Physical and emotional infidelity are often graded differently) .

  • Betrayal felt; from lying / breaking the rules.
  • Natural Jealousy; I don't think anyone goes 'Oh no X cheated on me now I won't have his income' (OK, maybe some strange people will) but I would say jealousy exists as a natural reaction in humans - mate guarding. I believe it would at least partially, though likely primarily be based on mans resource exclusivity, I would personally put protection and time investment at the top of those but they are probably variable and cover a lot of complex areas.
  • Insecurity; We feel like we are not good enough.

So, to the original question, both - or society exasperates the natural form of jealousy.

[–]Eastuss༼ つ ▀̿_▀̿ ༽つ0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Maybe the -absolute- worst is rape - I don't know for sure.

I was being sarcastic, it weirds me out when people talk about rape and cheat like they're the worst things ever. It is over victimising victims. There is worse than rape or cheat, always, everybody knows how bad these things are, there's no need to over dramatise it every time it's mentioned.

I don't think anyone goes 'Oh no X cheated on me now I won't have his income'

Maybe it is an unconscious behaviour, jealousy may be the resultant of a resource preserving behaviour? Because technically, what is jealousy even about? Why would you care so much that your man only loves you or wants sex only with you? And by resource I don't only think about money but also about time.

Insecurity; We feel like we are not good enough.

That's also what men feel everyday at any moment, we're never enough, our reaction to that is to get better, but women's reaction to that seems to get others worse or to forbid them from getting better.

[–]nemma8830/F/UK INFP -t. Engaged0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I was being sarcastic, it weirds me out when people talk about rape and cheat like they're the worst things ever. It is over victimising victims.

Ok, was just relevant in this case to the topic of the thread.

Maybe it is an unconscious behaviour, jealousy may be the resultant of a resource preserving behaviour?

jealousy exists as a natural reaction in humans - mate guarding. I believe it would at least partially, though likely primarily be based on mans resource exclusivity.

Do not disagree.

[–]Me2_00 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Rape is not as bad. Being cheated on means something horrible happened, and you were not there to witness it. Rape is pretty similar to being in a gunfight, its right in your face shocking, but afterwards its way way easier to process emotionally, because you SAW everything. There are no questions. No mysteries.

When you get cheated on, there are millions of unknowns, millions of questions, millions of hours of despair and self destruction. Being cheated on makes some people actually go and murder their ex, it actually makes people blow their own brains out too.

Rape is 99% not as bad as people think, the hollywood "horror" type of rape. Usually it is sexual assault while the girl is drunk and puking in a fucking toilet while some chad is trying to get laid.

[–]Eastuss༼ つ ▀̿_▀̿ ༽つ1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Some of what you say makes sense but try not to end up on /r/jesuschristreddit :p

It depends of the rape, but the rape we think of usually is worse than cheating. It does not trigger the same feelings though.

[–]Me2_00 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I actually think youre onto something with this thread. It seems like women get more and more insecure the longer they are in a relationship.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Rape is pretty similar to being in a gunfight, its right in your face shocking, but afterwards its way way easier to process emotionally, because you SAW everything.

That makes no sense at all. Rape often leaves the person feeling like their entire humanity has been stripped away like they were nothing. Do you think that can be easily processed just because they saw it happen? That's delusional.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I'm going to blame this comment on autism.

[–]ZoidbergluverBluePurple Pill Woman0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

/thread

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points7 points 9 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

its a social construct. Normally i'd love if my boyfriend fucked other gals regularly, but feminists have brainwashed me. :(

[–]louplopNeeds your food1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Love this answer :D

[–]Eastuss༼ つ ▀̿_▀̿ ༽つ0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Is that sarcastic? :(

[–]DarkLord0chinChin1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

it's circlejerkious

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

This is the "three year boyfriend" you have? Does he know that you were out with other men last summer?

[–]shogunofsarcasmI do what I want5 points6 points7 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Was she sleeping with the other men or just around them? That is an important piece of information.

I was surrounded by dudes for 2 months this summer in a different state going on hikes and to the beach and the bar on my days off. It wasn't an issue because I was going to bed alone.

[–]Saint_Chad_of_Mercia2 points3 points4 points 9 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

If a youngish woman is not overweight or excessively ugly, then 90% of men will have unconditional sex with her, if the opportunity arises.

However, a man would only commit to a small minority of these women, unless he is desperate.

The problem for women is that a man's actions and behaviours are almost identical, whether he wants just sex or is interested in something more. So she is constantly looking for some kind of guarantee that he's more than just sexually involved with her, if there is some kind of ambiguity to the relationship.

[–]Sandralees2 points3 points4 points 9 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

Why is it a problem for women when the man will feel just as much cheated if she strays?

[–]Saint_Chad_of_Mercia1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

I think that it's a combination of the scattergun/dartboard sex drive of men, and the fact that women generally want more than ambiguity in their sexual relationships.

[–]Sandralees2 points3 points4 points 9 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

So it's a problem for everybody, not just women, right?

[–]Eastuss༼ つ ▀̿_▀̿ ༽つ0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

The point of the thread was never implying that men don't want their partner to be faithful.

[–]Sandralees1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

The post is about women, yes. The comment above makes it sound as if women have a different behaviour from men when it comes to partnrr's cheating. I am just pointing out that the behaviours are identical and so it doesn't bring any insight to your OP.

[–]Saint_Chad_of_Mercia0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Not really.

[–]Sandralees1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

How so?

[–]Saint_Chad_of_Mercia0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Women don't have sex and intimacy with a man for the sake of it.

There are always conditions there, and it's very rare for a woman to have sex with a random guy for sex's sake.

On the other hand, the default position for the average man is to want and desire unconditional sex with random women.

[–]Sandralees2 points3 points4 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

it's very rare for a woman to have sex with a random guy for sex's sake.

No it's not. Some women are into NSA and some aren't

And men feel just as much devastated as women when they find out their partner had someone on the side.

man's actions and behaviours are almost identical

That's what men believe too, especially terpers who say: don't listen to what she says, watch what she does.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

There are always conditions there, and it's very rare for a woman to have sex with a random guy for sex's sake.

What????

[–]rulenumber3032 points3 points4 points 9 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Well resources are part of it, but it is about more than just resources. A healthy household in any place larger than a large village is going to have some fairly tight boundaries around it all the time, and especially while children are being raised. You can't have people just walking on in and possibly settling to stay based upon casual sex... that is one of the ways kids end up dead or molested, there being a revolving door of strangers into the household. Now of course one can say "well have the casual sex away from home" but then you end up with the wage-earning parent/s barely seeing his or her kids and why bother even being together then?

[–]Eastuss༼ つ ▀̿_▀̿ ༽つ1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I consider time as a resource, so, yeah, with children things get different.

[–]rulenumber3031 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

It isn't just when there are kids though. Adults don't much like randoms walking into their lives too... and that's what tends to happen when people play away from home. You look at all the locks and latches and fences and doors on the average house. Those physical barriers around a household are duplicated in social barriers around a household... and with good reason. And think of how much trouble people's boyfriends/girlfriends/casual fucks cause in share house situations... the housemates aren't fucking each other let alone in LTRs, and yet intimate partners and the consequences of those intimate partners being around (or making the housemate not be around) tend to be a constant source of irritation and trouble in share houses. Even foreveralones who often enjoy the company sharehouses tend to provide eventually tire of it and seek out their own place they can lock everyone out of. That sort of looseness around household barriers is a thing for the young who know no better.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

What about the walking marriages of the Mosuo? Matriarchal, there, and room for lots of casual sex.

[–]rulenumber3030 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Are their communities large village size or smaller? The dynamics change once everyone pretty much knows everyone else, predators are dealt with in different ways.

Also, once you're looking at tribal/traditional (no I don't mean traditional as in 1950s... that's modern) societies things become very different. I don't know much about the Mosuo but my guess is they do a whole bunch of things differently, not just marriage.

Generally the entire system of justice and punishment is different in traditional societies... for example in most traditional Australian Aboriginal societies you get given a "skin name" which defines where you are generationally compared to everyone else everywhere... sex outside of the correct skin names is instant banishment or death... and the skin names that equate to "mother in law" have the total authority to collectively pass judgment and assign punishment on you for wronging someone with a skin name that equates to "wife"... so much so there is an entire set of behavior language designed to enable people with that skin name relationship to avoid each other. from the day he is born a man lives in fear of his mother in laws. It is a totally different system from our justice. The further you get from modern industrialised liberal democracy the less possible it is to assume you can just transplant what they are doing to modern society.

[–]anitapkcsarlbmed ggse2 points3 points4 points 9 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

I'm an outlier (cucquean fantasies) but what's important is resources. Don't pay to fuck, don't dine her, don't get her pregnant, don't fall in love, don't stick your dick in crazy, don't get her gifts. Besides that be discreet and make sure no one knows especially me.

[–]Eastuss༼ つ ▀̿_▀̿ ༽つ1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

make sure no one knows especially me.

I thought that the cuck fantasy implied knowing :o

I consider time as a resource also.

[–]anitapkcsarlbmed ggse1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

It's a fantasy and I want it to remain one :)

[–]Eastuss༼ つ ▀̿_▀̿ ༽つ0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Well, anyway, if you're evil enough and consider that all men on earth are yours, you'll be set up in a cuckquean situation.

I didn't know what to answer, sry.

[–]anitapkcsarlbmed ggse0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Haha it's ok.

[–]haikufunNon-practicing hyperphagist/hypergamist2 points3 points4 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Having society based on loose harems is chaotic. Stds, decreased child care, and increased poverty rates is enough for me to want a large segement of society in monogamous relationships.

[–]EchoZeroElevenPursuing Answers to Unknown Questions2 points3 points4 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Not everyone enjoys sharing their toys.

Not everyone enjoys being shared.

[–]Eastuss༼ つ ▀̿_▀̿ ༽つ0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Except you're not a toy, and you're never "shared".

[–]redpillwakeup1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago* (5 children) | Copy Link

The reason women seek faithfulness in men is because women's physical attractiveness jade way faster than men. That's why they rely on men's faithfulness when they are not physically attractive as they used to be.

How many times have you heard a woman says "he just wants to have sex with me" It's really common to hear, but the gold hiding behind this line is that the woman who says it KNOWS beside sex she can't not attract this guy. The traits, virtues, or the awesome personality she considers she has will not draw the man to her. Only sex. That's what it drives her crazy and spit that famous "He just wants to have sex"

Actually a man says I just want to have fun(sex) is very similar to a woman says "Let's just be friend"

[–]ZoidbergluverBluePurple Pill Woman2 points3 points4 points 9 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Do you really think women age worse than men? I don't see this to be the case at all. Women tend to take much better care of themselves in youth (wearing sunscreen, moisturizing, less beer, etc). Women also have much more options. They can dye their hair, wear makeup, it's more accepted for them to get face lifts, etc. Men go bald... women don't have anything that drastic happen to them.

Why do you think men age better than women?

[–]redpillwakeup0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Just ask a single woman at her 30s or 40s to compare the number of guys who pays attention to her at her early 20s and present time.

I don't need a case study or prove. Reality is the best answer.

[–]ZoidbergluverBluePurple Pill Woman2 points3 points4 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

But we aren't comparing a woman in her 40s to a woman in her 20s. We are comparing a man and a woman of the same age. Which 20 year old gets more attention? Which 40 year old does? Ime, it's women for both answer.

[–]redpillwakeup0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I could easily find a male actor who is at his 50 and still capable of getting a leading role with a great box office. An actress at her 50s with a leading role?

[–]Eastuss༼ つ ▀̿_▀̿ ༽つ0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

That's something I very often try to explain, that it is similar despite what they want to believe... Very well formulated, will reuse the last sentence.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

  1. I couldn't bear the thought of him having sex with another woman, whether a lover or a prostitute. Sex is very, very important to me. If he's having sex with other women, that's less sex for me. And then there's the ick factor of thinking of his penis touching another woman's vagina. It would make me not want sex with him again, and as I said, sex is very important to me.

  2. If he also loves the other woman/women, then he has less love and time for me. And love and time together is very, very important to me.

So his faithfulness is important because without it, I don't want him.

[–]rulenumber3031 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

And then there's the ick factor of thinking of his penis touching another woman's vagina. It would make me not want sex with him again, and as I said, sex is very important to me.

Yeah this too, it is just gross. And who else has she been fucking? Nobody likes being only one or two fucks away from the crotches of half the city.

[–]Eastuss༼ つ ▀̿_▀̿ ༽つ0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

You're kind of just agreeing with the premise of the thread: faithfulness is important for women.

You're not really pointing out why it is so much of a red flag.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

You're not really pointing out why it is so much of a red flag.

I spelled it out, dude, in plain language.

[–]Eastuss༼ つ ▀̿_▀̿ ༽つ0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

You spelled out your feelings, not the origin and reason of those feelings.

If you can't explain yourself other than with your feelings, probabilities are you've not searched deeper and don't truly have anything to say on the subject.

[–]EliteSpartanRangerNice Guys Don't Ask For Rewards1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Because if a couple agrees to monogamy, then being faithful is a sign of trustworthiness which is important.

[–]Eastuss༼ つ ▀̿_▀̿ ༽つ0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Monogamy is encoded in the definition of couple, in most countries you basically can't kiss a woman and not be immediately responsible of being faithful to that woman until an official break up.

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[–]BeyondTheLight0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (15 children) | Copy Link

Mostly about the stereotype that children are hurt by it, as women have the image of being the primary caretakers of said children, so naturally they are going to need a man to take care of the family. If I had to guess anyway. Not quite sure what the point of this post is. Faithfulness compared to what or in what instance?

[–]Eastuss༼ つ ▀̿_▀̿ ༽つ0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link

Faithfulness compared to having sex outside of a relationship.

[–]BeyondTheLight0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

I was personally thinking more in terms of marriage to be fair, but these days just a relationship will suffice, then still my arguments stands. It is for the children really. Women don't want to be stuck with the burden alone.

[–]Eastuss༼ つ ▀̿_▀̿ ༽つ0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

I don't understand why this leads to your point. You seem to imply that extra conjugal sex will imply separation or children with the other partner.

[–]BeyondTheLight0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

No I don't. It is just that women are more likely to have children when married.

[–]Eastuss༼ つ ▀̿_▀̿ ༽つ0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

What is the problem if the man is having sex elsewhere while staying in the relationship? it doesn't directly lead to the mother having the burden of raising alone, so I don't get your point. :(

[–]BeyondTheLight3 points4 points5 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

There is a chance where the father impregnates his side chick and having to split resources. That means less for her children. Not to mention that it is "insulting" to most women.

[–]speltspelt2 points3 points4 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Men bring STDs home, some of which can render a woman infertile or harm her kids. Men also generally waste money on sex. A high mating effort guy is just vastly inferior to a high reproductive effort guy.

It's not just women who react this way, look at how the children of gratuitously unfaithful men. They've done studies on polygamous societies, kids of highly polygamous guys have all the handicaps of kids of single mothers and are generally really unimpressed by their dads.

[–]Eastuss༼ つ ▀̿_▀̿ ༽つ0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

kids of highly polygamous guys have all the handicaps of kids of single mothers and are generally really unimpressed by their dads.

So the absence of the father triggers the handicaps of kids whose father is absent?

I understand that there are lot of practical reason that makes polygamy bad with children, but your point is that those behaviour may be encoded in women and may be applied even when there's no children?

[–]speltspelt2 points3 points4 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Sure. Evolutionarily speaking, relationships either lead to children, support existing children, or reduce her reproductive success...

[–]Sandralees0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

Is it a problem if the woman is also having someone on the side while staying in the relationship?

[–]Eastuss༼ つ ▀̿_▀̿ ༽つ0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Because of the reproduction mode, the problems are different. Personally I wouldn't find fair an one sided open relationship.

[–]Sandralees0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

People use contraceptives these days. Use 2 and you are guaranteed to have no child against your will.

[–]Eastuss༼ つ ▀̿_▀̿ ༽つ0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Well, you're not here when your wife has sex with someone else. When your child are born, you have no guarantee those are yours. Then there are other things to take into account, do we really care to be the biological dad?

That's why it's enough different to deserve its own thread IMO.

also

Use 2 DIFFERENT

:p

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

The 2nd one

[–]prodigy2throw#Transracial0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

It's an evolutionary trait.

[–]SetConsumesAlways Becoming0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Pussy is what helps catch a man's heart and love, by fucking other women, women fear that other pussy will capture his heart, and she'll lose her nest slave.

More than resource exclusivity, the greater fear is losing his resources and the control over him entirely.

[–]despisedlove2Reality Pill Tradcon RP0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Resource exclusivity.

Women want it without reciprocation.

[–]Entropy-7Old Goat0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link

I think that evo psyche says that tend to be polygynous and women are ok with that if they have guaranteed access to resources. Monogamy is a more recent phenomenon and the free-for-all we have now is only about 50 years old.

Men cannot ensure paternity unless the woman is faithful while woman always know that a child is theirs. Even when you don't have "cheating" involved, it seems that more people - of either gender - are more comfortable with an FFM threesome than with an MFM threesome.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 9 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

I think that evo psyche says that tend to be polygynous and women are ok with that if they have guaranteed access to resources.

Untrue. Women have been forced to accept what men have forced them into for thousands of years. They haven't been "okay" with it.

[–]OfSpock0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

There are societies where women can choose monogamy or polygamy. As a general rule, they choose whichever is the better deal for them.

[–]Entropy-7Old Goat0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

So you are saying that, in circumstances of vast wealth inequality among men, women would prefer destitution over material support because they are jealous of other women sharing those resources?

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

I'm saying women were forced to be baby machines and were not allowed to work in trades or professions.

[–]Entropy-7Old Goat0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

women - naturally - don't want to work in trades and professions. They do it as a best alternative.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

Women - naturally - do. Many women were turned away from learning under the masters of the arts and trades. They were turned away from science and philosophy.

You don't understand women's minds. Many women have the biology to be baby machines but also the biological brain to create, design, invent and innovate. It's why many women felt so unfulfilled as mothers only - even though they loved their children.

[–]Entropy-7Old Goat0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

Sadly, you don't understand women.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 9 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Yes, of course, all the many women I know and know of must be keeping up a good facade. Pretending to be all intelligent and smart and stuff. The female doctors, scientists, artists and big business owners I know are somehow faking it until they make it. (And they'll never make it 'cos red pill truths)

[–]Entropy-7Old Goat0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Yep. . . .LMFAO

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

You know it bro'.

AWALTYALTYOoOoOoO! forevah!

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

I think you forgot how humans work. When we evolved a consciousness and the ability to create and invent, to work tools and farm, women weren't left behind. They were only left behind where anything important could be created and rewards to be collected, because it's easy to step on someones free will when they're smaller and less muscular than you and fear you will rape them. The reason they're smaller? Because smaller ones are easier to overpower and rape, so more small women came from that. Doubt that these rapists were prehistoric lesbians with fertile strap-ons, either.

So yes, men forced women to baby machines and out of doing any meaningful porfessional work.

Even if it isn't relevant today, that's still how history worked. They took advantage of the other sex because they could. What is so hard to grasp about that?

[–]Entropy-7Old Goat0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Apparently I struck a nerve. Is this how you respond to every uncomfortable revelation of truth?

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

What about this implies you struck a nerve? the length of it? I can assure you that is just my blargh style of writing, not agitation.

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[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (17 children) | Copy Link

Women have an innate fear of being left after their fertility fades. So a man who is not monogamously committed has a greater likelihood of bailing on a woman after she hits the wall. The evo psych explanation would be that such a man will get other women pregnant and then his resources will be split between multiple women's children, thereby lowering the fitness of the first woman's genetic lineage.

Of course women are no longer monogamous, instead engaging in "serial monogamy" aka hypergamy, yet they still expect men to be monogamous and this has been built in to our legal system. Which demonstrates that it is women who rule. Who can you not criticize? It's certainly totes cool to criticize men. What happens if you do that to women? Oh yeah you lose your job and are shunned.

[–]Eastuss༼ つ ▀̿_▀̿ ༽つ1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (16 children) | Copy Link

That's a thing on this sub, people often say that women are doing men a favor by engaging in LTR with them, but it's not a good deal, it was a good deal when it was an unbreakable marriage, because the woman would give up hypergamy and the man would give up polygamy.

But now it's just the man leaving aside his nature and accepting an unfair deal, and yet we're expected to be grateful.

[–]DrunkGirl69Manic Pixie Drunk Girl3 points4 points5 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Men do benefit from LTRs, that's why they pay for the GFE

[–]Eastuss༼ つ ▀̿_▀̿ ༽つ0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

What is GFE?

Beta men CAN benefit from LTR because it MAY provide them consistent sex, love, and attention. But I do believe this is the kind of man that is going to know what dead bedroom means. :(

[–]DrunkGirl69Manic Pixie Drunk Girl0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Girl friend experience

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 9 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

That's just more bullshit women say. I think of it as a shit test. Because clearly it's me, the man, doing the woman a favor. She's going to get all old, post wall, and barren, meanwhile I'll gain more resources, more status, and retain my fertility far longer.

I can't really see any reason for a guy to be monogamous anymore. Women are not monogamous. So there is no reason for a guy to do so. Which is the whole defect-defect equilibrium we have entered into, which real marriage was meant to save us from.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

She's going to get all old, post wall, and barren, meanwhile I'll gain more resources, more status, and retain my fertility far longer.

Problem is, society is changing rapidly. Women are fast gaining their own resources and income. Men with resources are becoming less and less attractive for that aspect alone. So, a washed-up 40 year old man is not anywhere near as attractive to women as he would have been 30 years ago. And 20 years into the future, no man will be able to bank on his resources alone to gain a woman.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

But that's not the problem women face. The problem women face is you cannot create reality. You can not actually create a frame. I can have nothing, nothing at all, no money no stuff sleeping in a sleeping bag on the floor, yet I still have something to give to women. My frame. Women are simply unable to create this. You cannot create it. You can only live in the frame a man makes. No amount of stuff is going to fix this. Nothing can ever fix it. Women will always crave my frame. To live inside my world.

It's awesome in here :)

Have a great weekend stickit. I really do like your posts. You should come join us in the chat sometime.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

My frame. Women are simply unable to create this. You cannot create it. You can only live in the frame a man makes. No amount of stuff is going to fix this. Nothing can ever fix it. Women will always crave my frame. To live inside my world.

Sorry, I had my own frame when I was single and I still live inside it. I don't have a need of a 'man's frame' whatever that is. I enjoy my man's personality and company. But otherwise, I feel exactly the same whether I'm with him or not.

Aveagoodweekend too. Maybe one day when I have more spare time I'll come chat :)

[–]OfSpock2 points3 points4 points 9 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

LOL. You have nothing.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Surely that's true because you say it. Reality just doesn't actually matter right?

[–]OfSpock1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Frame is worth nothing.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Again you thinking these things does not make them true.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

What on Earth makes you think a 40 something year old woman is any better of a situation? What guy is knocking down the doors to get a 44 year old chick? You broads are delusional.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I didn't mention women. You're getting all het up for nothing.

[–]Eastuss༼ つ ▀̿_▀̿ ༽つ0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Problem is, in some countries it'll be hard to ever find someone is going to accept that not being a monogamous man is acceptable. They kind of give value to it by repressing the contrary.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I'm only familiar with American culture and laws. Here I would say that you would be surprised at what you can do if you just do it.

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