Marital rape

perly9 · 2014-09-28T20:45:02+00:00

YOU may believe that marriage is ongoing consent to sex, however, the law does not and while most people expect sexual activity to be on the table in a marriage, I do not believe that most people take that to the extreme that sex can never be denied in a marriage.

My stance is that there is presumed consent in a marriage (ie, you do not have to get explicit verbal consent to have sex as RP-ers seem to retort), but if either spouse does say NO one night, and the other continues, that is rape.

The logic for this is common-sense. Sexual drive varies depending on circumstances. Sometimes, someone will have a headache, or not feel well, or not be in the mood, or not have the time.

What I don't understand is what stands to be gained by forcing your partner to have the sexual activity that they obviously don't want. What is gained by making your partner resent you for making sex a chore, when you could just skip that opportunity to have sex and move on with your life? It seems incredibly selfish. Obviously, if your partner is doing this consistently and your sexual needs are not being met, your relationship has larger issues that need to be addressed, or you two need to separate due to sexual incompatibility.

But it is still not a justification for forcing sexual activity on anyone. Your partner does not cease to be a human being with rights to bodily autonomy just because they became your spouse. And as said, literally nothing positive stands to be gained by forcing sex on your partner.

babyguineapig · 2014-09-28T23:41:19+00:00

So, OP, if you didn't want a child and your wife waited until you were passed out drunk, got you hard, had sex and got herself pregnant, you'd be cool with that? Because marriage means ongoing consent, yeah?

ATLracing · 2014-09-28T19:02:06+00:00

Since you're the one making the assertion, perhaps you should first explain why you believe marriage implies consent. I think that would clarify your position somewhat.

VarsitySlutTeamCpt · 2014-09-29T05:11:02+00:00

I think that shit is rape..unless ya'll talked about it.

[deleted] · 2014-09-29T00:50:57+00:00

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GuildedCasket · 2014-09-28T20:51:12+00:00

What constitutes as consent in a relationship is very, very different from what constitutes as consent between two strangers, and one problem people have with this question, I think, is that they assume the goalpost for consent is the same as it is between two strangers (or at least, if I may say so, that's how RP often strawmans non-RPers beliefs about marital rape).

If you've been in a long term relationship with your wife or girlfriend for years, you do not need to ask her if she wants sex. You can touch her in any way that has been acceptable in your marriage thus far, seduce her basically any way you see fit. That is not violating consent, there is a concept of "ongoing consent" in a relationship where at any time you can just pull your partner's genitals out and start licking them. You can't do that to strangers.

So what happens in an LTR is that there is a burden of retracting consent, instead of actually getting consent. If two strangers are flirting and might want to have sex, it is the pursuer's job to actively get some affirmation, some form of "yes". But in an LTR, it is the pursued person's job to say "Hey, not in the mood right now". If after that rejection, the partner is still attempting to seduce the person who just said no... it's not really into rape territory yet. "Hey, I'm tired" "C'mon honey... It'll make you feel better" "All right, I guess" - that was not rape. Some people are more comfortable with that than others, and I personally think it is unethical to some degree, but it's not rape. It can be coercive to some extent, it can create rifts in a relationship if one person is trying to beg and cajole or seduce, but it's not rape.

Marital rape is where after the pursued repeatedly expresses the desire to not engage in activity, through some sort of force, emotional manipulation, or coercion, they are made to do those sexual actions the pursued did not want to do. Examples:

If a husband said "If you don't have sex with me right now, you do not get food tonight", and then locked his wife away until she submitted, that is rape.
If a man said "Look honey, I don't really want to have sex tonight" and the woman dragged him onto the bed, forced his penis out and started sucking it while he protests, but he doesn't want to physically force his wife off of him because he doesn't want to hurt her, that's rape. Note: I think of the guy only said "No" once, then started enthusiastically joining in with the blowjob, grabbing onto his wife's hair, etc., that is enough consent. The rejection has to be somewhat more emphatic, I think, in LTRs.
If a woman shoves her fingers up a man's ass after he has said he is not comfortable with that, that is rape.
And, of course, if a wife says she isn't in the mood but her husband holds her down and puts his penis or fingers in any of her orifices while she is protesting, that is rape.

Any crossing of an explicitly laid boundary is rape. Other than that, it ranges from seductive and sexy to coercive and slimy.

To answer your question..... I think it is only rape if the wife has previously stated she does not want to have sex in such a state, like I think sleep sex is only rape if the wife states she does not want to have sex in such a state. If she has said before, "Do not have sex with me while I am blackout drunk", yes, rape. If she has not said anything about it or if she's giving consent to it, then no, not rape.

powerkick · 2014-09-28T19:47:57+00:00

Let me fight this one on two fronts, one for each paragraph:

1) things in a marriage can change, drastically, especially over time. If you monitor how a person changes over forever and compare them to their past selves, if you look at things like personality and habits, you're looking at entirely different people between the ages of 18 and 80. During this time, one can pick up drug habits, reveal themselves to be abusive, realize that their partner isn't what he or she thought he or she was, etc.

It's entirely reasonable to assume a drop in attraction, desire, or even companionship due to almost unlimited numbers of factors that could contribute. Thus, one party might not want sex and the other still might. If rape happens here, even if they're married, it's still 100% rape.

2) This one is trickier because it builds on the dynamics of my first points and then adds in "and they might be blackout drunk." Well, lets drop the loss of attraction and assume this happily-married couply is still indeed happily-married and very much in love. Let's say the get drunk one night and decide to have sex. They have sex, like they have so often. OK, fine, they wake up the next day going, "shit, my head...did we have sex?" The other party says, "I'm pretty sure we did." Then they go about their day.

OK, that's fine. This is a happily married couple having sex with the addition of extreme mental inhibition, but IF they had sex that fell within their boundaries when they're sober, it's still consensual sex, though NOT in the eyes of the law. HOWEVER, that law does not serve to punish happily married couples, it serves to act as a vehicle against date rape. I.E. 2 people who don't know each other/don't want to have sex/are inhibited from expressing lack of consent I.E. passed the fuck out.

That's how I see it, in any case.

Aerobus · 2014-09-28T19:24:28+00:00

If a husband has sex with his blackout drunk wife, is it rape?

Just to be clear, according to the law in the U.S., that is rape.

What we can debate is whether or not we agree with it or not.

[deleted] · 2014-09-28T20:57:37+00:00

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breadplane · 2014-09-29T18:40:44+00:00

That depends. Did the wife go into the marriage agreeing that by marrying her husband she was consenting to sex anytime he wanted it? Did she make that decision on her own, without pressure from her husband one way or the other? If so, then I suppose neither party would consider it rape. However, if one party just happens to personally believe that marriage=consent, but never discusses it with their spouse before marriage, then it's unfair to assume that the spouse feel the same way.

Meshakhad · 2014-09-30T17:18:54+00:00

Yes. I do not believe that marriage constitutes ongoing consent to sex.

SirNemesis · 2014-10-01T13:56:18+00:00

Just because someone gets married to you doesn't mean that it's your right to have sex with them whenever you want. A spouse is not a sex toy, so why treat them like one? Is it really so hard for you to treat people with respect and compassion? And do you really think that your sex drive is more important than your spouse's well-being? If you treat your spouse like they're nothing but a sex toy, they're going to suffer emotionally as a result. But you don't care about that, do you? No, it's all about you, you, you. There's a reason why you're not married yet, you know. And that reason is because no one would want to marry someone as self-absorbed as you.

Unicornrows · 2014-09-28T19:39:00+00:00

What's the point of this discussion? How will it help you in your dating life?

But to answer the question: I don't think that should be considered rape, because being married to someone implies consenting to sleep with them, although I suppose it depends on whether or not the wife would have consented when sober. Maybe they were in the process of getting divorced and she got drunk in their shared home.

I agree laws are overzealous about labeling people as rapists (perhaps with the dubious hope that they will only be called upon or enforced judiciously), and I also agree the rules are biased against men (drunk man & woman have sex = man raped woman).

SirNemesis · 2014-09-28T21:05:50+00:00

As someone who generally agrees with this position, I think it's a little more nuanced. Theres a misunderstanding of the word "rape" and the concept of "consent" between both sides. I don't think anyone would argue that a man can't "rape" his wife in the colloquial sense of "force himself on her sexually without her consent to the individual sex act".

The issue of whether "marital rape" is a real thing is a LEGAL issue, ie. should a man be able to be prosecuted for the rape of his wife. Because of the uniquely sexual nature of the marital relationship and the uniquely private nature of it, it becomes extremely difficult if not impossible to show lack of consent outside physical evidence of beating, which is already assault and battery irrespective of marriage--so why is there a need to have the additional "rape" charge?

Outside of physical evidence of battery you are left with a he said/she said scenario that could almost never have any evidence to bolster either side. There are policy reasons for not allowing this sort of situation to obtain in marriage, specifically because of the uniquely intimate and private nature of the relationship.

A more just theoretical way of handling a marital rape law if you have to have one would be to draft it in such a way that an intact marriage creates a "rebuttable presumption" of consent, shifting the onus of proving consent or lack thereof on the part of the "victim" onto the prosecution, whereas normally consent is an affirmative defense that shifts the burden of proof onto the defendant. That and have a high bar for proof, like "beyond reasonable doubt". It is simply too open to abuse otherwise

flanneur · 2014-10-01T21:39:52+00:00

Well, let me put your ideas this way so you can grasp their foolishness.

Suppose you end up in jail. The most powerful inmate there takes a liking to you and decides to marry you, with the prison chaplain being coerced or bribed into officiating over the wedding. As you want his protection, you accept his proposal of your own free will, despite the humiliation.

Now, as his 'lawfully' wedded 'wife', are you thus consenting to offer your ass ANY time he wants it, regardless of how badly you're hurt or whether you're even awake? Do you accept that he is well within his bounds, as long as he isn't actually knocking your teeth out?

SirNemesis · 2014-11-30T06:30:28+00:00

Yes it is. Marriage =/= ongoing consent to sex. Sex can be casual (like FWB), but love isn't. Love is the reason why people get married nowadays and has been the reason for quite some time now. If you're in a relationship with someone for sex (FWB don't count) then why the hell are y'all even together?

sh1v · 2014-09-29T10:30:09+00:00

You're barking up the wrong tree here brah. The right to fuck your wife when and how you want was part of the original covenant of marriage, but thanks to feminism, women no longer want to uphold their end of the bargain. The problem is, this ship has long sailed in most civilized parts of the world. Unless Muslims manage to outbreed the native inhabitants of said parts, it won't be coming back any time soon.

Your time would be better spent avoiding marriage, recognizing it for the raw deal it is, and just getting pussy without strings attached. Marriage is now defunct in terms of its value to men.

Reginleifer · 2014-09-28T19:31:51+00:00

I'm not going into marital rape, cause I think you need to take baby steps with Blue or they go into "Mus-soh-guh-ny" mode and it takes a certfied psychologist to unlock their mental processes again..... however:

Here's my own question for Blue: If I were to go behind my (hypothetical) wife, and grab her in a sexual manner, would I have assaulted her? If she decided this were assault (all of a sudden with no prior mention of dislike, should I be prosecuted? *What if I groped a stranger, once before being told to back the fuck off? *

Is there an "implied consent with relationships or marriage?

If so does this implied consent extend to sex? If not, why not?

To make things simpler we won't go into pinning down forced penetration and instead stay within the realm of drunk or asleep sex.

So were dealing with lack of consent not the stated refusal of sex.

Title	Marital rape
Author	SirNemesis
Upvotes	5
Comments	146
Date	September 28, 2014 6:40 PM UTC (11 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/2hptog/marital_rape/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/marital-rape.284744 https://theredarchive.com/post/284744

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