What do Red Pill Women think of these TRP sentiments?

veritas-aequitas22 · 2014-09-18T20:12:00+00:00

Here's a comment with more then 100 upvotes, from an endorsed Red Pill contributor, and got a positive reply from the chief mod. So, in other words,...

[–][deleted] 41 points42 points43 points 11 years ago* (18 children) | Copy Link

Edit: Hello azure users from a certain sub that may have linked to this thread. I'll go ahead and bold a few parts of my comment that may have been missed and/or overlooked the first time around.

Be well.

:0)

I don’t comment with any frequency on the PPD sub, but I feel compelled to say a few things. I will offer my own personal thoughts, and that is all they are. My views are not representative of every Red Pill woman, the other ladies may or may not agree with what I have to say and that’s all right.

I have never (and will never) understand the reasoning behind highlighting a comment made by one person on a sub (or from a particular group) and then demanding that everyone else associated with the group or sub (even tangentially) validate/defend the views expressed by that person. I’m not suggesting that only users from one side or the other do this, by the way. I have seen many people all over the internet (and from every walk of life) utilize this tactic. I think it creates a false dichotomy: either you support everything the individual said, or you aren’t actually x (in this case, if Red Pill women don’t rush to defend and validate what this user wrote, then they can’t actually be Red Pill). It seems disingenuous to me, and narrows the scope of the conversation before things even really get started.

Perhaps I’m nit-picking, but a less aggressive, narrow-minded, and accusatory tone would probably encourage more Red Pill women to speak up and offer their opinion(s). When a topic or question is phrased in such a judgmental way, fewer users are going to want to comment (it’s easier to just shake our heads and move on to more productive tasks). If people don’t think you’re actually willing to listen to what they have to say, many will opt to say nothing at all because what’s the point? Normally I would simply click out of the thread and go about my business. Nothing about your original phrasing has made me believe that you’re interested in anything more than a witch-hunt. I hope I’m wrong and simply misinterpreting your intentions, but it seems unlikely. A more productive line of questioning (as well as a more neutral approach) would look more like this:

“What, if anything, do you agree with about this statement? What are your views concerning these sentiments? Do they align with your personal understanding of the Red Pill? Does this comment offend you, or do you mostly agree with what the user is saying? If you disagree with some or all of this comment – how do you reconcile that with being a Red Pill woman?”

I do not have any familiarity with the user you quoted, so I’m not writing this out of any need to “defend” him – he’s perfectly capable of addressing this thread if he feels the need (assuming you messaged him directly to let him know about your post).

[Note: This is where I start answering the question(s) asked by the OP]

In my experience, women do want to be treated favorably, or with special consideration – regardless of whether or not they actually earned said consideration. There is a particular brand of entitlement that comes with being a woman, and that entitlement can manifest in many different ways. I have witnessed countless women proclaim how ‘different’ they are in a particular way, only to show how entirely clueless they are about their own privilege with every subsequent statement. I’m not saying men can’t or don’t do the same things, only that I have noticed this issue universally with every woman I have talked to. I am also not saying that I am some magical exception that is immune to this problem.

The RPW sub concentrates on admitting that we are imperfect, that we have tendencies that need to be focused on and addressed. I work hard to keep my sense of entitlement in check. I do my best to have a balanced, realistic, practical, and optimistic outlook of myself and my life. Sometimes I falter and that’s all right as long as I work to correct the mistake(s). In order to look up to my SO, I have to be able to respect him (and his ability to lead). I have to trust his abilities enough that I can concentrate on being supportive and follow his lead. The language is harsh, and not the way I would phrase things – but I agree with what he’s saying.

I will also point out that the users on the RPW sub don’t want to date/marry just any man (RP or otherwise). The single ladies are looking for a good man that is interested in cultivating a long-term relationship. Those of us that are already in a relationship/married tend to consider the man we are with to be the epitome of a good man. My SO is the watermark by which I measure and evaluate all other RP users, which often isn’t fair or productive. I have no problem with the men that are focused on spinning plates or not interested in women at all – but I will never have as much respect for them as I do my SO.

I am a Red Pill woman, but that doesn’t mean I have to agree with what every single user says. Many of us have different opinions about many topics, and that's fine.

[–]TempestTcupPost Pill6 points7 points8 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

“What, if anything, do you agree with about this statement? What are your views concerning these sentiments? Do they align with your personal understanding of the Red Pill? Does this comment offend you, or do you mostly agree with what the user is saying? If you disagree with some or all of this comment – how do you reconcile that with being a Red Pill woman?”

So they took ONE MAN'S statement and applied it to all of RP and want to know what RPW thought of that one man's statement and whether what he says applies to us. Why would it apply to me personally; he has never met me. I don't take strangers opinions personally. Why on earth would I care about what he has to say about women; I don't even know him. Now, if they took a statement from my husband, they would get an entirely different outlook on things, and my husband's opinion is the only opinion that matters to me.

[–][deleted] 17 points18 points19 points 11 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

I have never (and will never) understand the reasoning behind highlighting a comment made by one person on a sub (or from a particular group) and then demanding that everyone else associated with the group or sub (even tangentially) validate/defend the views expressed by that person

So you're saying that anecdotal examples from a group of people is not an accurate way to making judgements of the entire group? And that groups have very diverse populations with different beliefs and not everyone behaves the same way?

Huh

I have witnessed countless women proclaim how ‘different’ they are in a particular way, only to show how entirely clueless they are about their own privilege with every subsequent statement. I’m not saying men can’t or don’t do the same things, only that I have noticed this issue universally with every woman I have talked to

Oh nevermind

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points8 points 11 years ago* (7 children) | Copy Link

Yes, every woman I have met has exhibited these qualities to greater or lesser degrees. Some were aware of the issues, others were not. I said that I have these problems too and that I work to minimize them. There's nothing wrong with saying "I'm only human, I have faults, and I can improve myself." Have you ever met a person (male or female) that was entirely absent of any fault, flaw, or imperfection? No one is perfect, we all have ticks, and even the best people we know and respect are subject to bad days. I see no problem in admitting this, or talking about it.

What I do have an issue with is throwing a dart, or singling out one person's commentary and then saying "this person is now your collective representative because I say so - defend their words now, or you're a fraud."

I clearly stated that these were my opinions, and only that. I don't claim to speak for the entire RPW sub, or even for RP as a whole.

Saying women have faults should be as controversial as saying "babies cry." That's one of our main focuses - we recognize our faults, we help other women (that willingly go to the RPW sub) understand what things they've been missing and/or unaware of.

How does highlighting one person's comment and demanding everyone from that group justify its validity, in any way similar to making observations over time and throughout my life from a wide collection of different individuals? If you re-phrase the point you're trying to make (because I honestly don't understand what you're driving at right now) I can provide a more cohesive reply. The only thing that comes to mind after reading your message is that you're attempting to be snarky, if I'm wrong then I apologize. On the other hand, if that is your only intent then I'll tell you that it isn't necessary. I'm more than happy to have a calm, respectful exchange with you if you're willing to converse in a more sincere manner.

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[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points 11 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link

The OP didn't decide that u/IllimitableMan and his opinions are representative of the TRP community...the TRP Community made that decision when they made him an Endorsed Contributor, then proceeded to tell all its members again and again and again that if they want "the truth" and decide to "swallow the red pill," these Endorsed Contributoprs are the people to be emulating and their thoughts are the thoughts they want to be having.

Yes, I’m aware of this argument and it doesn’t change my opinion (or what I’ve said). RP does not only exist on reddit, and there are readers that do just that – read (without voting or commenting). RP doesn’t begin and end with what happens (or is said) on the TRP sub. I rarely comment and/or vote there. Many of the ladies on the RPW sub don’t spend any time on TRP, and that’s fine. It’s a place for people to exchange ideas and talk. Listening to endorsed users is encouraged because they have been around for a while and their comments/contributions are seen as useful/valuable. I take no issue with that. TRP has a broad focus in many ways, and there are conflicting approaches that are not compatible with each other (the MGTOW users aren’t going to have much use for the users that are focused on LTR’s and marriages for examples. Similarly, the gentlemen that are mainly focused on dating multiple women/pursuing casual sex won’t be overly interested in what the LTR users say.)

I see this all the time--complaints that opponents of TRP are "cherry picking"--but we're not. More often than not, when we bring forth objections to TRP, we're focusing in on the posts of Endorsed Contributors and the "Required Reading" in the side bar that the TRP community told us were representative of TRP Theory and heavily upvoted comments that the TRP community has decided is representative of its views.

People have different takes on a lot of these subjects, partly because of their overall goals, and partly because of their personal experience(s). This isn’t the best analogy ever (because RP isn’t a religion), but I know many religious people that do exactly what you’re talking about – they pick the parts of their religion that they believe in. There are certain parts they reject, but that doesn’t make them less religious. I don’t agree with everything I read, and that’s not a source of conflict for me. I sometimes agree with the message, and disagree with the wording.

Quite frankly, it is intellectually dishonest to make this whole "cherry picking" assertion; you can't loudly proclaim that Person X is a TRP Guru and then when your opponents take you at your word and start viewing him as a TRP Guru, turn around and cry, "Nuh-uh, that's not representative of our views."

I have never proclaimed that anyone is a “RP guru.” If ‘you’ in this context is meant to describe “the RP community as a whole” – then it still doesn’t apply to me, or to many users that never voted for those comments. First of all, I’m not in a position to speak for all RP users. My opinions do not necessarily apply to anyone else. Second of all, I said that I do agree with what this user is saying. I would word things differently, and I don’t agree with some of the language. I have the ability to say “I understand and agree with what he’s driving at, but the execution isn’t to my personal liking.”

I expect some variation within the community, but let's be honest, a community is defined as a community because its members share some central, underlying views and in a community like TRP, where dissenting opinions like, "lately I've seen TRP slipping" will get you banned for concern trolling, I expect the variation to be even less than typical.

Yes, we all agree that men and women are different. We agree that those difference can be examined to not only better ourselves as individuals, but also improve the relationships and dynamics between the sexes. We agree that personal accountability is important, that this is a process, that there are different (yet still valid) ways to approach/reach your goals. We agree that men and women have certain behavioral tendencies. Those tendencies are sometimes beneficial, sometimes detrimental – it depends on how they are expressed. We agree that men and women are attracted to certain things.

As far as the operational decisions on TRP goes – you’d have to talk to the Moderators there. I’ll be honest and tell you that I’ve never read the TRP side-bar, and I haven’t looked at any of the links you’ve provided. I did see the concern trolling thread I think, and trying to keep the overall tone of the sub somewhat focused and on point can’t be an easy task.

I think what you've just asserted is, honestly, a contradiction in terms. The way in which a message is conveyed is part of the message. It frames the content in a particular way, because it is meant to be received in a particular way. As an example, consider the difference between animal rights activists who hand our fliers on college campuses and those who perpetuate violence against lab technicians. These two groups aren't conveying the same message. The former is saying, "We need to acknowledge the plight of the animals and treat them fairly." The latter is saying, "Oh, and also, those who don't agree with us deserve to die."

I understand what you’re saying, but it’s not a contradiction for me. I can agree with theories, ideas, concepts, and still say “well, I’m not fond of the wording.” I can also agree with the ideas, without going to the same extreme as literally interpreting the words. For example when the user says “All women are sht.” I agree that all women can behave in shtty ways – but I don’t literally think we are equivalent to feces.

In your example – they are still both animal activists, and like it or not, they will still be tied together by the larger public because at the end of the day they are all animal rights activists. I have seen feminists use the exact same argument that I used. They will say “x isn’t the same kind of feminist that I am, because I believe…” and that’s fine. Many people have different ideas and approaches even though they subscribe to an overall viewpoint. You see all kinds of contradictions when it comes to policy and ideas within political parties. They’re all Democrats/Republicans – yet they express their ideas in different ways and they don’t necessarily all get along with one another.

u/IllimitableMan's "harshness" is a part of his message, which goes beyound saying that men and women are merely different, or that women are flawed, and expresses an obvious disdain and hatred for the opposite sex, which we supposedly "deserve." Part of the OP's question was, do you think this hatred for women is acceptable?

I don’t know if he hates women or not, I don’t believe he does though (if I recall correctly, he’s in a relationship…but I could be wrong). I have said “I hate x” at different points in my life, I didn’t actually hate everything that was x, it was an expression used to convey my frustration. The extreme expression is sometimes a tool. A way to change perceptions and how the users approach women. They’re attempting to re-frame and equalize their views on women. Many grew up giving an abundant amount of consideration to women, so this is how they try to reduce that extreme ‘worship.’ I liken it to talking ‘smack’ about an opponent you’re about to play against in a sport. I don’t find it offensive, I’m not threatened by the language, and I feel no need to yell “you shouldn’t be talking like that” or try to censor what they’re saying. I think many (if not most) women do earn the disdain of many people. It’s not their fault because many have no idea how entitled and offensive their behavior actually is. In any event, I’m not bothered by this user’s words.

He says women are all shit and you, I assume, are a woman. Are you shit or not?

I am a woman, and I already answered this earlier on in my comment.

You don't get to ignore what u/IllimitableMan's actually said just because his words were "harsh."

I already addressed this, but I just wanted to say that I “get” to do whatever I feel is right when it comes to forming my own opinions and expressing them. You are bothered by this apparent conflict of expression versus message and that’s fine. It’s not an issue for me, and I have no problem reconciling the differences between the two.

There's nothing wrong with saying "I'm only human, I have faults, and I can improve myself."

Obviously, but that's not the issue here and I think you know that. The issue is pinning specific faults on half of the human population when you, personally, do not even know half the population. People deserved to be judged according to their own actions; this is the very definition of justice.

That is the issue for me. Users do get called out on TRP and RPW for their faults, this user is talking about the issues women exhibit. Justice: the process or result of using laws to fairly judge and punish crimes and criminals. Laws are man-made, and imposed through various structures put in place by the society that created them. If you mean “justice” in a moral sense, then I’ll tell you that no one ‘deserves’ anything. Our sense of overarching community, connectedness, and efforts to be civilized allow us to feel entitled to certain things, but that doesn’t mean we have a cosmic right to anything.

Thank you for your post; even though I don't agree with you on virtually any fronts, it's provided a lot of insight.

Likewise.

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Even if the comment had 500 upvotes, there are over 73,000 subscribers on the TRP sub. Yes, many of those accounts are probably trolls. There's also the issue of vote manipulation, which I'm not interested in going into great detail about. I've seen threads get wildly thrown out of balance due to outside interference. I'm not saying that happened here, and I'm not surprised that it's such a popular comment. I agree with what /u/we_are_legion said on the matter in his comment here.

I don't think I'm sh*t, but I do acknowledge my faults and actively work to minimize them. I know I am prone to certain behaviors as a woman, and admitting that doesn't make me abused, brain-washed, or dumb. I'm mindful, aware, and hold myself to certain standards. I have a very clear idea of what it means to be a good woman, and I strive to better myself in all areas.

For example, I know that I am naturally hypergamous. I am mindful of that and actively "check-in" with myself and my SO to make sure that I'm not 'wandering' either overtly or indirectly. My SO and I work hard to keep our relationship low maintenance. I am aware that my thought processes can become emotional (and less logical) when I am in an agitated state. If/When I fail to correct myself, my SO gets my attention and highlights what I'm doing. I stop myself, take a few breaths, and examine my behavior. This doesn't happen often by any means, but it's a useful system that works well for us.

The user you quoted was expressing his opinion and I have no issue with that. If men want to move into places together, and separate themselves from women, that's fine. I do agree with his sentiments about women. We (women) exhibit these tendencies to varying degrees, depending on personality, upbringing, and personal views. I agree that women can be incredibly manipulative etc. I also believe those bad habits can be minimized and corrected through hard-work and dedication.

Edit: I also appreciate your honesty. Not everyone is willing to admit when they behave in a trollish manner.

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[–]We_Are_LegionAutumn Red14 points15 points16 points 11 years ago* (120 children) | Copy Link

Instead of feeding the circlejerk or throwing RP under the bus. Let me conduct a little experiment with you all.

I think this quote is a perfect occasion for a very novel thought I want you to consider. Get out of pre-conceptions for me, and allow me to challenge the way you think for a second.

The post OP linked would strike you within your heart and soul probably for many of you. Every sentence of his would hit. It probably stands at odds with everything you believe and you've heard and you're trying to inculcate in the world with your social justice warrior leanings(and be honest, if dictionary-definition gossiping about RP isn't SJW I don't what is). But... just ignore that feeling for one moment... And bear with me...

And assume... -hypothetically-... that this man is not insane.

I mean, we can all agree he's a bit of chaotic evil character. But.

This man is not insane.

Furthermore, assume for a second, that the people agreeing with him. Are also not insane.

So... why would these non-insane people possibly be saying insane things? As Orson Scott Card would put it, when that happens... usually something is up.

Of course we are going to be assuming he's wrong, don't worry. But still, lets go into why this strange thing would happen.

Well... the above post, in his eyes... and mine, and in the eyes of RP people reading him and agreeing with him... is a raw, egregiously, confrontational way of saying the truth. Or at least what we believe is the truth.

In fact, I myself agree with him 60-70%.

Basically, if you've digested and lived enough RP, read enough of the theory, and you were to compress it all and say it in an abridged yet thoroughly bellicose way...

*That is what its going to sound like. *

To the people in RP. They're going through the thrill of rebellion. They've read it all... hell, books worth... but well... the way he puts it... its electrifying to them.

Its like that meme where you take a children's story, and shorten it, and harden it, and its suddenly something very fucked up. Well, maybe that's the way reality is, in our opinions now: Truly fucked up.

Basically, I hate the way he's put it. But I just can't say... that he's lying.

And I love it.

Haters can hate.

The red pill is best served when its tongue-searingly spicy.

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[–]AFormidableContenderPurple Pill Man-2 points-1 points0 points 11 years ago (21 children) | Copy Link

I know heaps of lovely women who don't fit this description at all. Why can't this guy meet any of them?

Because they're busy swiping left on his tinder pictures, making fun of his PoF profile, and trying to trick him into buying your gaggle of "beta-bux"'ers free pinacoladas.

Or maybe you're "lovely" women are too busy gushing over Chad, the new guy at work with an intriguing hint of a tattoo slightly peeking out of his dress shirt cuff, which fits his nicely toned body, he got from years of college football, in between bouts of fucking cheerleaders and getting belligerantly drunk.

I don't disagree that he should avoid the presence of women though. I'm sure we'll do fine without him.

I always find women's reaction to angry RP men so fascinating. Instead of examing why an RP man might feel such intense hatred for women, you immediately assume his complaint is immaterial, he's not worth your or other women's time and should be written off, even after having just written a sentence inquiring why he can't just have (as if attractive women is an act of purely going out and "getting" one, as it is for women towards men) one of your "lovely" girl friends.

LolWut? In a truly examinative manner, the cognitive dissonance is truly incredible.

[–]give_me_shinieshere for the bants4 points5 points6 points 11 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]AFormidableContenderPurple Pill Man0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Do you bother to examine why Dworkin type feminists feel the way they do about men? Or do you just dismiss them as haters that are better off staying away from men anyway?

I've never met one. If I did, I'd be very intertested to discuss why they hate men.

er, it's probably for the best that some peeps avoid human interaction for everyone's health and safety

It is if what reason you've deemed them unfit to partake in the human experience was via mistreatment by 50% of those other human experiencers.

As for why this guy can't "get" anybody. Well, we know he's an obnoxious misogynist whose apparently only had negative experiences with women. Either there's something wrong with half the species or there's something wrong with the guy ranting "fuck bitches, we're gonna party foreva!" online. I'm going with the latter.

Examine what you just said and take it apart...

"He's an obnoxious misogynist because he's had bad experiences with women"

Translation: Even though his experience with women is grossly negative thus far, I expect him to harbour an irrational affection for women!

Seems fair to me...

"Either there's something wrong with half the species or there's something wrong with the guy ranting "fuck bitches, we're gonna party foreva!" online."

Translation: He should be blamed for the bad experiences other people gave him

Again, seems totally fair to me...

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago* (10 children) | Copy Link

Instead of examining why it's my fault a complete stranger thinks I'm a piece of shit human being because I'm a woman...oh wait it isn't. That examination doesn't happen because it's more obvious than a silent-but-deadly-fart in an elevator. I have tried to go figure TRP guys out and it pretty much hits every bullet point for narcissism. So that's what it looks like to most healthy adults. They won't necessarily think, "Oh look, a narcissist" but they probably will think something to the effect of, "That person appears to make my skin crawl and I can't quite put my finger on why"

I do not laugh at people. I swipe left if I do not personally find you attractive for several important reasons related to how compatible you would be with me. I do not trick men into literally anything.

I do not have infantile crushes on men at work like some sort of Sex In The City rerun from hell (I also do not work in an office, but I assume working in offices is not Highschool Part II -adult women do not gush. What the fuck- If it is, I am glad I chose to be a ballet dancer, because we are some serious freaking people). I think overly built men look absolutely ridiculous and I think football is a mind numbing activity where large men give each other multiple concussions (baseball however, is great. Fucking pitching. That is technique, dammit.) Alcoholism is unattractive, idiots are unattractive, and who names their child Chad? Are you all white people from the valley on TRP?

Given your example of how you think reality is, my conclusion is that you are possibly living in a low budget 80s movie.

Pretty much here's what's going on with people like this dude; they can't meet women that are interesting because they are fundamentally disturbed in a way that will repel people. Any mentally healthy adult woman would not be able to tolerate a person, male or female, that has has intense hatred for an entire group of humans. It will register subconsciously as very very off-putting. If he thinks he isn't giving off creepy signals that he is deeply disturbed, that would be incorrect.

I do assume he is not worth my time, specifically because I am not a therapist, and I am not being paid by the hour to listen to him have a narcissistic meltdown.

He deserves to get therapy and treatment from a mental health professional, but you guys are so clueless about mental health/illness you made an Internet forum to blame all females of your species for your intense personal problems instead of getting a freaking diagnosis.

I wouldn't talk to people like this because I could be talking to healthy people, or reading a book, or practicing ballet, or cross training, or watching a TED talk, or drawing, or writing, or literally doing anything that will contribute to positively improving my life. It sucks people are that messed up. That's sad. It's okay to be aware of them, but it's a small section of the population, so I luckily do not have to have the highly unpleasant experience of watching someone have a bizarre meltdown that is randomly aimed at everything with a vagina.

[–]AFormidableContenderPurple Pill Man0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago* (9 children) | Copy Link

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That's all I do here, discuss TRP. And? I don't really use reddit and this is entertaining to me at the moment. I've been here about two months after an essay I was researching brought me into looking at PUA and our cultural belief that men and women are too dissimilar to solve problems together, especially those of social dynamics. I stick around to talk about the concept of people of any gender or orientation being able to mutually discuss dating, relationships, innate human loneliness, and perhaps the pervasive effects of internalizing the pain from interpersonal failures (and that discussing it in isolation with just one sex creates a confirmation bias death spiral). I am going to get bored pretty soon, I realize, but this is interesting information.

If I didn't think this was interesting, then I really would be insensitive to the pain of others. I can see things differently and still have sympathy for you. Being seen as a woman in the context of TRP is essentially being seen as something which I am not. I don't mind if you see me negatively, even if it is wildly inaccurate, but my sole interest is poking a stick into the mental self care issues that make gender segregated relationship clubs seem like a solution to deep human problems (when in fact it is more like running deeper into the problem and creating a whole false universe to sustain it).

Regarding mental health, I don't see any stigma around it, if I had serious mental health issues of that nature, I would be well informed. I have had depression before so I know how to take care of my health and have been evaluated. I'm healthy, bright, probably too cerebral, and I tend towards low serotonin. Depression sucks and I hope you do not have it.

You guys are sexist, it is annoying, and I enjoy fighting you dudes. That's about all there is to that. On the other hand, I think the reason the sexism is there is gross mishandling of psychological pain and the need to project it outside to make it feel manageable, to remove the sense of totally losing control. I think it's a coping mechanism.

I don't believe in "moral" superiority to begin. "Moral superiority" is why we are fucking up as a culture in handling mental health/illness/care and we have so many substance abuse tendencies, all the way up to alcoholics and drug addicts, whom we also ostracize and try to pretend aren't really there or that are morally inferior. I think most of you are similar in that you stop several levels lower than you could be in terms of observations of the world at large and of the brain and how it is trying to cope with the information around it. I find this annoying as well. Moral superiority/inferiority is at that level. It is interesting to try to interact with people here because they are looking at red herrings about their pain. I don't mind you projecting them onto me, but I am very aware of my mental health and what I have to struggle with, which is specifically anxiety and depression, which runs in my family and I am very proactive and unafraid of telling people. It's real life.

I am passionate about mental health advocacy. TRP appears to be a strong backwards step away from living in a healthy manner and I am studying this for myself. It helps me see where people get stuck. I don't want to be stuck.

I do not take joy in pain, I take joy in understanding that pain does not have to control you. If I believed it did, I would have never learned how to manage depression.

What's your excuse for not taking care of mental health or advocating for it? It appears the excuse is that women are bad, caused your brain to be in the state it is, rather than our overal cultural cluelessness about mental health.

I don't like that women are the scapegoats here, but I am interested in looking at this on reddit for the time being. It's going to get old because I am apparently a scapegoat as well, which is ridiculous. Blaming me for imaginary people's problems who you think I must be hurting by virtue of me being a woman (just to uphold the truths of the false universe, again to get some sense of control without getting healthier), is a whole new level of irrational self talk that I find rather incredible. The novelty of that is going to eventuall get really old, and then I will go back to reading as my primariy study tool. This exericise in writing and interacting has been a nice change, even if I get attacked for being a woman in fantastically bizarre ways.

I think I'm a bit of a cerebral snob, but that's also because I don't get to write much and I found this very fun.

I think most of this (TRP/PPD/PUA for that matter), is about surrounding yourself in a cocoon of drama and bullshit and not being honest about who you are with other people, and instead blaming people for the pain in your mind.

It doesn't really work like that.

Also it is a strange reaction that your are outraged that I have an opinion on any topic, be it mental health or dolphins. That's really not your decision, what I "get to" have an opinion on. (your amused mastery seems to have gotten a little esoteric. Master of opinions? wut?) I think that is the problem you guys have with women - women can very clearly decide who is in our lives, what we willl be doing with our lives, what we will publicly speak about, and in particular who we will have sex with or not (or as you like to doll it up: your concern for "sexual strategy". Right. Keep telling yourself that.)

I don't remember you, because you all kind of sound identical and don't have strong personalities (at least in writing, maybe you do better in person).

[–]AFormidableContenderPurple Pill Man0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

I stick around to talk about the concept of people of any gender or orientation being able to mutually discuss dating, relationships, innate human loneliness, and perhaps the pervasive effects of internalizing the pain from interpersonal failures (and that discussing it in isolation with just one sex creates a confirmation bias death spiral). I am going to get bored pretty soon, I realize, but this is interesting information.

Do not even begin to pretend you are here to assist people in their loneliness. Last time I spoke with you, you were one of the most obnoxious, narcissistic, egotistical, and offensive contributors this forum has to offer.

You guys are sexist, it is annoying, and I enjoy fighting you dudes. That's about all there is to that. On the other hand, I think the reason the sexism is there is gross mishandling of psychological pain and the need to project it outside to make it feel manageable, to remove the sense of totally losing control. I think it's a coping mechanism.

And you think fighting people on the internet whom by your own description suffer from serious inward pain at the hands of females is a productive use of your time and effort in your valiant quest to help and discuss the issues plaguing man'o'sphere culture?

lol...

I do not take joy in pain, I take joy in understanding that pain does not have to control you.

You're a narcissistic ballet dancer who spent two paragraphs telling me how much hotter she things she is than most other women, shits on other dancers, you're a woman, and you have a boyfriend; of course you think that.

What's your excuse for not taking care of mental health or advocating for it?

My excuse? I have no excuse because I don't require one. Life is Darwinian. People are darwinian. You cannot hold beliefs that are not validated. If you hold the belief you're shit, no one likes you and women think you're unattractive and gross, they must all be true. Therefore you can either attempt to fix them if you believe you have the genetic potential to reverse those opinions of others, or you can learn to accept that you're life is a waste. Or you can kill yourself, but most people aren't going to do that.

As Ayn Rand once said, where pain and disease is a sickess of the physical body, mental anguish, and low self esteem is a sickness of the mind, telling you something is wrong with the abstract, but still tangible body.

It appears the excuse is that women are bad, caused your brain to be in the state it is, rather than our overal cultural cluelessness about mental health.

Mental health has nothing to do with TRP. Men are the way they are in TRP because they realize they're fucked, that women will never want them because they either aren't alpha males, don't have the potential to be alpha males, or don't have the time, resources, or force of character to realistically accomplish being an alpha male. It's entirely tangible anguish. The TRP's that still like, or respect women, are the TRP's that realized or found being or becoming an alpha male was not a hard stretch for them.

I don't like that women are the scapegoats here, but I am interested in looking at this on reddit for the time being. It's going to get old because I am apparently a scapegoat as well, which is ridiculous. Blaming me for imaginary people's problems who you think I must be hurting by virtue of me being a woman (just to uphold the truths of the false universe, again to get some sense of control without getting healthier), is a whole new level of irrational self talk that I find rather incredible.

I have no idea what you're talking about; none of this is relevant.

The novelty of that is going to eventuall get really old, and then I will go back to reading as my primariy study tool.

No one is here to impress or entertain you, your worshipfulness...for someone who pretends to care about mental health and TRP issues, you sure have a big head about ourselves, don't we...?

is about surrounding yourself in a cocoon of drama and bullshit and not being honest about who you are with other people, and instead blaming people for the pain in your mind.

being honest about who you are is a female luxury men do not have.

It doesn't really work like that.

Yes it does.

Also it is a strange reaction that your are outraged that I have an opinion on any topic, be it mental health or dolphins.

No, not any topic...you're pretending to present yousrelf as a good natured inquisitor to TRP issues and the mental health of those who support TRP world views, when you yourself suffer from obvious mental shortcommings that make you acutely unworthy of holding a fair, legitimate opinion.

I think that is the problem you guys have with women - women can very clearly decide who is in our lives, what we willl be doing with our lives, what we will publicly speak about, and in particular who we will have sex with or not (or as you like to doll it up: your concern for "sexual strategy". Right. Keep telling yourself that.) I don't remember you, because you all kind of sound identical and don't have strong personalities (at least in writing, maybe you do better in person).

I, on the other hand, an acutely skilled at remembering imbalanced indivuals in my vacinity. It's my job. Just today, my collegue and I got books thrown at us by a man who refused to talk because he thought he'd get HIV...

That being said, you're tone, and demeanor fascinates me. For someone who portrays themselves so unarmedly, you sure are a condescnding individual. Fascinating.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago* (6 children) | Copy Link

I'm aware this is fully an essay. Okay. So.

I'm not here to assist them with their loneliness, because instead of trying to get help with it, TRP and any similar group is largely dedicated to finding someone to blame for loneliness, as opposed to grasping that it as a commonality across all conscious things. You just look at women, point the finger, and try to mock people who have nothing to do with your (in)ability to process suffering or pain. Take responsibility for your emotions, then you can ask for help. Then I can possibly help, in some way, by sharing my experiences as an equal. If you don't start with that attitude, all of that is impossible.

They suffer from serious inward pain at the hands of their consciousness being able to produce serious pain. It is also their consciousness that makes it better or worse. Not women. Again you fail to understand this extreme point of departure in what I am saying and what you think I am saying. That was not my own description at all. You seem handicapped at doing that.

I didn't say I thought I was hotter than anyone. If you work on your body actively for 12 years, yes your body is going to look quite well. This is what it is. (If I recall correctly, this was also brought up in response to you attempting to insult me for being very overweight and bitter at my office job. Pretty sure that was you.) You might personally hate my body and face. That's fine. I have still worked on mastering a physical skill, which is also much more important than some superficial, non-skill related standard of beauty (again, with no functional skills related to it. I find that ridiculous, because it is.) You're the guy who tried to say you knew something about me because I was a woman, tried tricks that usually make women insecure, and then told a story about your sister to try to make me feel insecure about being a ballet dancer. It was not nearly as impressive an interaction as you are telling yourself it was.

I am learning something by trying to talk to you and seeing what happens, so it is productive. Learning is productive in my opinion.

The problem plaguing manosphere culture is that it exists. It is a poor use of consciousness. You are identifying as the thing you happen to be instead of the consciousness observing the thing. Then you are trying to make conclusions about the consciousness in other things. That's an error.

Alpha males do not exist. Moving on.

My boyfriend does not validate me, though he is exceptionally in touch with his consciousness, so I actually enjoy his company, instead of being stuck in a vacuum of people identifying as the thing instead of the consciousness. I don't know why people go with that option, but if you do and try to make sweeping conclusions about the nature of existence, you're trapped in a bubble of nonsense. You can't understand it from there. You keep trying, and the projections onto others (me or otherwise) are pretty insignificant and easy to refute.

Because you miss the point entirely. Okay, what else do you got...oh yes, mental health has everything to do with TRP. It's a poor reaction to a mental health issue. End of story.

You can reach several incorrect conclusions about 1) what you are observing and 2) why you are observing it. This is maybe the origin of psychology. Irrational interpretations of reality used as validation of false beliefs is pretty much the common denominator between every psychological disease.

Women do not operate in a hive mind. If people in general don't like you, you are doing something repulsive. You can figure out what that is without blaming women. I am not here to be attracted to you. That is not the point of my consciousness. That is not my default setting or your default priveledge. This is true of all women, all men, all relationships. We biologically need to procreate because our consciousness would otherwise (effectively) die without creating a continuation of consciousness. Whatever that force is, it wants to exist.

Ayn Rand is wrong on a few things. Pain is your nervous system telling you information to avoid further injury. It is not a sickness. Disease is a sickness of both the mind and body as they are both just clusters of cells in differerent locations on the same organism. Low self esteem is the result of consciousness insulting itself all day long. It may be caused by a disease located in the brain. So that dichotemy is completely false.

I do care about mental health, but I'm not an inquistitor. I'm good natured. You guys aren't. What do you expect to have happen? Me be embarrassed by you or apologize for not kissing your ass? TRP Is based on trying to manipulate people. It's important for you to understand what an epic failure it is in this instance. I am not going to adjust my ego to make yours feel safe. That is ridiculous.

If being honest about who you are is a luxury, you should claim it right now. Nobody is refusing it to you. Just be it and even the tone of this conversation would shift completely. You are resentful, but nobody is forcing you do that, except maybe fear. There is nobody holding a gun to your head threatening to blow your brains out if you were to interact with people on that level. If you were interacting on that level, I could fully RESPECT YOU. I could admire you as a person and interact with you genuinely. As it stands, this is the best you're going to get.

I am good natured, I'm just not a pushover. That is a very ineffective thing to be, no matter how well it seems to win approval. You say nothing, you learn nothing, you affect nobody.

For all I know one day this interaction might mean something to you (instead of be something you use to keep your walls up and your real self out of your connection with women). Being on reddit has been a really rad opportunity to stand up for my consciousness and experience what it is like to do that as a woman (since I happen to be one) against direct opposition from people that want to be things instead of conciousness (and decided men are the better thing of the two things, and apparently "Alpha Males" are a third thing that is better still).

That one sentence about being honest about who you are was the most personally honest sentence you have said in any interaction I have had with you. It let me give a shit about you. That's your truth, and until you learn to share that with people, everyone is going to seem like a an enemy keeping you trapped there, in particular women. TRP is like finding other men who wish to be trapped in there and trying to keep each other down in that personal misery, like the analogy of a bucket of crabs.

The big irony with that crab bucket, is if you got the fuck out of it, there is probably a woman out there you could genuinely love, and who would genuinely love you if you had the courage to be yourself with her (it might inspire her to do that more fully herself, OR you could meet a woman that is already possessing that kind of consciousness and maybe she can inspire you).

If you think I'm imbalanced, no. Weird, oh yeah definitely. If you do not approve of me, let's count all the fucks I give (looks through bag of fucks). Oh wait there's none in here. Apparently I don't give a single fuck about that.

I have really enjoyed this conversation because my mind had the opportunity to think from a place that matters instead of worry about trivial games we all play to fit into society. This stuff is who we are. I'm willing to put it out there and see if anyone gets it. If they get it, they'll know they aren't alone.

[–]AFormidableContenderPurple Pill Man0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

PART 1

I'm not here to assist them with their loneliness, because instead of trying to get help with it, TRP and any similar group is largely dedicated to finding someone to blame for loneliness,

This point of view is only a valid counterpoint if you A) take the position that there's a practical solution to loneliness which TRP doesn't necessarily do. If you are truly below the bar and cannot capture women's attention at all, TRP would strongly suggest there are good, typically unfixable reasons for that, and B) if you interpret TRP world views as a blaming on others of personal failures, which I'd argue is a convenient and highly inaccurate opinion from disenting camps. You can find many TRP men who are hard line TRP, and also successful with women...what happens to your argument then?

They suffer from serious inward pain at the hands of their consciousness being able to produce serious pain. It is also their consciousness that makes it better or worse. Not women. Again you fail to understand this extreme point of departure in what I am saying and what you think I am saying. That was not my own description at all. You seem handicapped at doing that.

No, actually, I understand it perfectly. I just don't agree...Interesting that you perceive a lack of agreeance with a lack of understanding. How "TRP" of you...

I do not believe the solution to their problem is not women and instead their consciousness. Now we're getting into a "chicken or the egg?" conundrum, and you've but the egg before the chicken. The chicken has to make the egg, for the egg to become another chicken...the egg doesn't magically appear, or change, or manipulate itself in any meaningful way. The previous chicken does. If you're going to take the argument that these guys feel like crap about their success with women, and therefore, cause themselves internal pain, and therefore, project that pain outwards in hateful TRP communities, you can't then say the solution to their pain is fixing their minds. The solution to their pain is women. If women liked them at any point in their lives, they wouldn't be on TRP hating women, and they hate women because women seem to hate them, thus, they also likely hate themselves.

What's the root here? Women.

I didn't say I thought I was hotter than anyone.

Yes, you most certainly did. Either you're straight up lying, or you're scizophrenic. I remember perfectly because you were one of the most obnoxiously callous, and petulantly arrogant human beings I had ever met.

(If I recall correctly, this was also brought up in response to you attempting to insult me for being very overweight and bitter at my office job. Pretty sure that was you.)

It wasn't an insult, it was a stereotype.

You're the guy who tried to say you knew something about me because I was a woman, tried tricks that usually make women insecure, and then told a story about your sister to try to make me feel insecure about being a ballet dancer. It was not nearly as impressive an interaction as you are telling yourself it was.

I love your interpretation of our previous interaction! It's so colourful :D Shades of red and green when it was nothing but grey...Firstly, they were "tricks". You probably felt that way because you've never had to face the reality that you're not a special snowflake who's better than everyone else. You aren't impossible to figure out and you're not immune to judgement, even on the internet. As far as my sister goes, I brought her up because you were attempting to insinuate I was unqualified to judge you, and that you're arrogance, and vanity were justified, and that it was perfectly acceptable of you to ridicule other women because you do ballet, to which I responded that I am accutely aware of ballet culture because my sister was also a high ranking ballerina before she left it to pursue other things, and that your malevolent disposition, back-biting and vainglorious attitude. There are many women like you in the industry unfortunately.

I am learning something by trying to talk to you and seeing what happens, so it is productive. Learning is productive in my opinion.

I don't view this as a productive learning experience. So far it's been nothing but you attempting to find ways (in vain) to brow beat your agenda. If you intended for this to be in some way a learning experience, or productive conversation, you've taken completely the incorrect approach.

The problem plaguing manosphere culture is that it exists. It is a poor use of consciousness. You are identifying as the thing you happen to be instead of the consciousness observing the thing. Then you are trying to make conclusions about the consciousness in other things. That's an error.

You sound like someone who's a fan of Eckart Tolle, whom I disagree with. There is no "consciousness observing the thing". You are you. You are a collection of atoms making cells, micro-biological machines that run you, on primal desires, and somewhere along the way, we evolved the ability to do math and make iPhones. There is nothing inherently special about you or me, past the flesh. Everything meaingful is tangible. I'm a man first, before I'm a "consciousness". The fact that I'm a man directly impacts, warps, changes, births the state of my consciousness. If I was a woman, my consciousness would be very different, thus, you cannot philosophically claim a consciousness is independant of outside variables or consequentialism.

TRP exists to help MEN be MEN. MEN feel better when MEN are validated for being MEN. MEN feel better when WOMEN want them.

Alpha males do not exist. Moving on.

They most certainly do, although I'd love to hear why you don't believe they do, without using the "dogs aren't even alpha/beta" line which has been debunked for quite some time.

My boyfriend does not validate me,

Yes he does, or you wouldn't have chose him. He validates your body because he enjoys having sex with it. I assule he validtes your mind because he enjoys talking to you. He validates your womanhood, because you can attract a male mate...I could go on. No human can say their sexual partner doesn't validate them and claim intellectual honesty. If you are with a man who you TRULY believed didn't validate you...what a pathetic existence that must be...to be with a sexual partner who could just go around having anyone, but chose you...what? At random...not making either of you feel good...simply existing in a space, affecting each other in the most nebulous fashion.

No thanks to that...

[–]AFormidableContenderPurple Pill Man0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

PART 2

instead of being stuck in a vacuum of people identifying as the thing instead of the consciousness. I don't know why people go with that option, but if you do and try to make sweeping conclusions about the nature of existence, you're trapped in a bubble of nonsense. You can't understand it from there. You keep trying, and the projections onto others (me or otherwise) are pretty insignificant and easy to refute.

I've defeated this earlier. No need to repeat myself.

Because you miss the point entirely. Okay, what else do you got...oh yes, mental health has everything to do with TRP. It's a poor reaction to a mental health issue. End of story.

No, it's the only possible reaction to a tangible, real world issue that has nothing to do with mental health. At all. End of story.

You can reach several incorrect conclusions about 1) what you are observing and 2) why you are observing it. This is maybe the origin of psychology. Irrational interpretations of reality used as validation of false beliefs is pretty much the common denominator between every psychological disease.

I believe your premise is fundamentally flawed, but I've touched on why already. What do you believe are the "irrational interpretations of reality", because the founding principle of TRP is that they are, in fact, exactly the opposite or men wouldn't seek TRP out.

Women do not operate in a hive mind. If people in general don't like you, you are doing something repulsive. You can figure out what that is without blaming women.

What an ironically and hopelessly female opinion. "you can figure out what that is without blaming women"...unless the reason womankind doesn't like you is because you're ugly, and you can't get not-ugly anytime soon...or because you're creepy and have horrible social skills and can't get not-creepy because no one will talk to you...because you're creepy...because people like /u/NinjaJanie won't associate with you until you're a paragon of perfect social accumen. I am not here to be attracted to you.

The spoons in my house are slightly too big for my mouth and it bothers me.

Or sorry, I thought we were saying random, nebulous phrases that have nothing to do with anything

That is not the point of my consciousness.

Yes, actually it is. In fact, the entire purpose of your existence is to fuck and have a children, which, large in part, requires the attracting of a sexual partner.

We biologically need to procreate because our consciousness would otherwise (effectively) die without creating a continuation of consciousness.

This is not factually, scientifically, or philosophically true. I can't give you points on any of the 3 scales for that one.

Ayn Rand is wrong on a few things. Pain is your nervous system telling you information to avoid further injury. It is not a sickness. Disease is a sickness of both the mind and body as they are both just clusters of cells in differerent locations on the same organism. Low self esteem is the result of consciousness insulting itself all day long. It may be caused by a disease located in the brain. So that dichotemy is completely false.

You've misinterpreted her meaning, which was a philosophical one, not a literal one. Her point is that low self esteem is as legitimate a system of informational disease or pain as the signals or actual disease and pain. Ie. if you hate yourself, you should probably hate yourself because you suck, and if you didn't suck, you wouldn't hate yourself, so you must actually suck, etc...

I do care about mental health, but I'm not an inquistitor. I'm good natured. You guys aren't.

By your perspective...by our perspective, we're EXCEEDINGLY good natured...to our fellow men...who we've saved from a see lost, wondering souls, and brought into some semblence of truth and accuracy. TRP is of course not good natured; it's not meant to be. It simply is what it is. Some people read TRP and realize it's their salvation and so are happy about that. Most read TRP and realize it's their doom, and so are sad, angry, and hateful about that. Those two things are not the same.

What do you expect to have happen? Me be embarrassed by you or apologize for not kissing your ass?

When did I ever insinuate I wanted you to kiss my ass? I'm still not even convinced you aren't the same disgusting, cruel, rotten human being you portrayed yourself as the first time we spoke, why would I be interested in having your lips anywhere near my ass?

TRP Is based on trying to manipulate people.

TRP is based on trying to manipulate women better than women are currently manipulating us* Very important distinction...

It's important for you to understand what an epic failure it is in this instance. I am not going to adjust my ego to make yours feel safe. That is ridiculous.

My ego is perfectly safe and snug. You haven't affected my ego in the slightest, and I don't believe you ever will with the manner you're currently attempting to, so don't you worry your pretty little point shoes over it. :)

If being honest about who you are is a luxury, you should claim it right now. Nobody is refusing it to you. Just be it and even the tone of this conversation would shift completely. You are resentful, but nobody is forcing you do that, except maybe fear. There is nobody holding a gun to your head threatening to blow your brains out if you were to interact with people on that level. If you were interacting on that level, I could fully RESPECT YOU. I could admire you as a person and interact with you genuinely. As it stands, this is the best you're going to get.

You're nebulous and allusionary tone in this sentence makes it hard for me to claim anything...what are you trying to say...?

That one sentence about being honest about who you are was the most personally honest sentence you have said in any interaction I have had with you. It let me give a shit about you. That's your truth, and until you learn to share that with people, everyone is going to seem like a an enemy keeping you trapped there, in particular women. TRP is like finding other men who wish to be trapped in there and trying to keep each other down in that personal misery, like the analogy of a bucket of crabs.

Do not pretend to give a shit about me. That kind of sillyness is from highschool when teachers would give you the "your success matters to me speech!!" but they'd still give you an F. It's nebulous, and hollow and you said it to make yourself feel good.

The big irony with that crab bucket, is if you got the fuck out of it, there is probably a woman out there you could genuinely love, and who would genuinely love you if you had the courage to be yourself with her (it might inspire her to do that more fully herself, OR you could meet a woman that is already possessing that kind of consciousness and maybe she can inspire you).

No. Abs get women. Social proof gets women. Money gets women. Good game gets women. Being honest with my consciousness of whatever it is you're saying gets you free tickest to the 40yr old virgin club. You don't fuck your boyfriend because he is a consciousness, you fuck him because he's attractive. He certainly doesn't fuck you because you're some floaty consciousness either...he's fucking your body you built doing ballet for 12 years.

I have really enjoyed this conversation because my mind had the opportunity to think from a place that matters instead of worry about trivial games we all play to fit into society. This stuff is who we are. I'm willing to put it out there and see if anyone gets it. If they get it, they'll know they aren't alone.

I don't think anyone is going to get it because your position is immaterial, and dishonest. I could take value from this conversation if you were honest with yourself, but you seem to think you're someone you aren't, and that you're trying to be more clever than you need to be. It makes your talking points muddy and unintelligible.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]OfSpock1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

[–]AFormidableContenderPurple Pill Man0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago* (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]OfSpock1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]AFormidableContenderPurple Pill Man0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Just because 'Becky' reject him, that doesn't make her a horrible person.

Rejections aren't nice. I don't know if you've met your gender, but women are certainly not a nice group of individuals to be rejected by. Rejections don't even have to be active...when I was young, I was a massive loser, and girls used to make kissing my cheek the punishment for losing at games because I was gross. I even heard some girl say "well...he's not THAT bad...". That kind of thing stays with you for a very long time, and when most women react to you that way, that is going to paint your opinion of women.

Becky rejecting him because she's attractive and already has a boyfriend is a rejection twice over. Once because she rejected you when you asked, and twice because women never actively pick you to begin with. If women thought you were worth their time, they'd make it known; women do not often let men of value go through life unaware...

Maybe Becky and our angry TRP man were friends, and he asked her out. She rejected him because and gave him some lame friendzone excuse about how she's not looking for anything right now and then went out to the club and fucked some chode in a leather jacket.

These kinds of things are just as hurtful, and just as much rejections as a girl telling you you're gross or ugly.

Men who have value don't come or join TRP. Period. They'd have no reason too. They may create value after finding TRP via self improvement, and women really do not respect men of little or no value. Watch a girl play Tinder...it's fucking heartbreaking.

What reason does a man have to believe any women are good when all the women he's met and is currently meeting behave in identical fashions?

[–]OfSpock0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]AFormidableContenderPurple Pill Man0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

but I still take issue with your argument that Becky has done anything wrong by dating someone else.

It's not about doing something wrong, although, that may be part of it depending on the person in question; it's about giving someone else an unpleasant experience and the interpretation of behaviors and actions. For eg. a lot of women do not want to associate with men with poor social skills...that's something that is spoken about very often both in female culture, and in man'o'sphere culture. Well, if you take someone with a negative experience with other people, particularly women, and then pro-actively increase the amount of negative feedback you give them, you really have no one to blame but yourself if and when negative things happen to you or other women like having these men hate you, create subcultures in which hating your gender is encouraged, assault, rape, etc.

[–]OfSpock0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]nomdplumeFormer Alpha10 points11 points12 points 11 years ago (22 children) | Copy Link

While I actually agree with some/most of his points (the emotional liability, the capacity for irrationality and manipulation, the general similarities in this regard, etc.), it smacks a lot of male solipsism. People, not just women, are like that.

Men can be huge emotional liabilities, for example. Think of tragic road rage incidents, domestic abuse (especially against children), or, to use a personal anecdote, the total Alpha-male buddy of mine who got into a fight with four guys ('cause that's what he likes to do) and ended up punching me in the throat (accidentally) and literally almost killing me as I dove into the scrum to pull him out (incidentally, I wasn't worried about my buddy getting hurt - I was worried we'd get kicked out of the show before the band came on). Fucked up my life AND the concert, goddammit, lol…

And I don't think I even need to point out men's capacity for acting in a Machiavellian or manipulative fashion.

So I seriously doubt his idea of a "male utopia" is going to work out that well. The only solution is to get fucking adept at dealing with people, and even more fucking adept at reading character, and even more fucking adept at maintaining strong boundaries with everyone. Don't get into business or bed with anyone if you're lacking in those skills.

That said, I used to think that my wife was a NAWALT, but the more I think about it, she's not. She's AWALT. I just know that she's committed to something bigger than her AWALT "programming" would allow. And I know (mostly, though I still get my assed kicked now-and-again) how to manage her when she can't manage herself. And she thanks me for it, profusely.

And here's the thing - I love, appreciate, and empathize with her more for being an AWALT than I ever would if she was a NAWALT.

I mean, if someone is just an angel 'cause they were born that way, that requires no strength of character and, while nice, isn't particularly admirable. Knowing someone is afflicted by the same things as everyone else but has found a way to manage and rise above them on a daily basis? That's fucking admirable.

[–]an_absolute_roseRed Pill Boy1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (21 children) | Copy Link

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[–]deepthrillAlreadyRed Mod, TRP Endorsed Contributor4 points5 points6 points 11 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

And men can be shit too (but we're also ignoring them for some reason).

No, the point is though that TRP focuses on men's side of things. The sidebar states what the goal of TRP is:

The Red Pill: Discussion of sexual strategy in a culture increasingly lacking a positive identity for men.

Nobody disagrees men can be evil too!

But TRP sees itself as an outlet for men to speak about the evils of women, whereas mainstream society is seen as an outlet for women to speak about the evils of men. Therefore, the premise is that it is acting as a counterbalance.

Regarding your "except for the ones who aren't" we have this debate at least once a week, regarding generalities and bell curves vs. specific people, and spectrums versus dichotomies. Maybe all people are evil to some degree, and the point is to try to figure out what percentage evil they are?

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[–][deleted] 7 points8 points9 points 11 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

This logic is shit, shit, shit.

First, you're making an entirely emotional appeal to "truth". Truth is selerate of your emotions.

Then you argue based on the assumption that whoever read this assumed the poster was crazy. You then establish an imaginary prerequisite.

There's no truth in numbers. If this statement is true because people believe it then Jesus was resserected and the Gospel is the word of God because there are one billion Catholics. The Qur'an is the word of God because 1 billion people believe in it.

Quite simply, this is not how logic or truth function.

You're agreeing with a statement criticising women for irrationality while believing this statement of emotions and fallacy.

Your entire "argument" is nothing more than a pseudo-intellectual appeal to emotion without a single legitimate defense in your whole post.

I guess the real question is: why is a self-help group so focused on demonizing billions of people?

[–]Archwinger[🍰] 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

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[–]We_Are_LegionAutumn Red0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago* (5 children) | Copy Link

Actually... that was a terrible point. Even if we ignore the stupidity of comparing TRP and terrorism... you have to realize, even Terrorism and terrorist leanings has a slew of real-world study done on it. Even Al-Qaeda and such groups can be traced back to causative factors. Even Nazi Germany was not created in a vacuum. We can disagree with them on how far they take it, but there are real, sometimes even good reasons, why they exist and have support. For terrorists and sympathizers, its hardly us being infidels that's the problem, and that that is a truly truly simplistic way to sum up a very complex geopolitical issue.

I can't sum it all up in one comment but google it because there's a lot of really great insight on the issue if you're interested. Even with regards to Terrorism, even then world still refuses to be black and white. Just something to think about.

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points7 points 11 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]We_Are_LegionAutumn Red0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

Sigh, you're completely going off topic again. BP really loves rhetoric right?

Please, note, if we are discussing my post; I painstaking and repeatedly tried to not argue and even pre-emptively concede the notion that what I am saying is right. Because the above is a terrible way to say it. I merely said that the opinion exists, and specifically, why such a crazy banner of it might be expressed. Archwinger furthered the line of thought to poke at "why should something like this exist?"

You are ignoring that line of thought and this debate to simply say we are wrong and thus going off-topic. I will not discuss that further.

Nazi-ism is wrong. Terrorism is wrong. But to say that these two don't have easily quantifiable reasons for existing is just as blind as those ideologies. And hell, that blindness itself may well be borne of good reasons that we can identify.

There is also the flaw in your OFF-TOPIC argument where we are necessarily defaulting to the worst examples of groups. You are comparing TRP to murderers. Get real. Example; Terrorism might be wrong, but the exact causitive factors to Al-Qaeda have also created groups we like. Like Freedom fighters. Or I don't know... Gandhi's non-cooperation movement. Who knows. But the default to Al-Qaeda is stupid as fuck bias.

Hell, you know what fuck it. I'm feeling adventurous. I would compare TRP to Gandhi's non-cooperation movement. Just to stick it to that stupid logic. We are simply individually bowing out of the game as the rules have been set. We dislike what the British are doing, and what the EIC(feminism) stands for here. But we're not fighting them and robbing them of agency. Our motives along the far flung edges of us, are not necessarily to be good but just pragmatic. We can't do much in the way of a war anyway. So we won't. We'll just look out for our individual interest. We'll only trade with the non-EIC British. Some of us erupt into violent protest. And have caused innocents, British and Indian to suffer. We condemn such action(though if you associate Elliott Rodgers into this example, I am reflexively done with you). But we understand their reasons.

So instead of being British and telling me why I, an Indian subcontinent citizen, am wrong in my methods or movement, or instead of trying to paint us as an insurrection... try and see why such a movement exists, and nip its reasons for existing in the bud.

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points7 points 11 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

No, I only used those groups as examples because the other poster blatantly called TRP heinous. I never meant to say TRP is murderous, but I think the analogy applies very well in some instances. Many people will believe hateful and malicious things with absolute commitment. The stormfront example is very fitting. Everyday sentiments are expressed that Jews are evil, cruel, greedy, conniving, liars, selfish and so-on. The sentiment that white nationalists hold for Jews is nearly identical to the sentiment trp'ers have for women.

Nothing is true because you think it is or you feel like it or lots of people believe it. Truth operates separately of feelings and numbers.

You're not a victim. You just have a victim complex just like racists do. You imagine the whole world is against you. Your failures are everyone's fault but your own. Just because you dislike women doesn't mean it's true.

You can't accept the caveats of your own logic. Feminism identifies a problem in society with hatred of women and seeks to fight it. They have higher numbers and more legitimacy than you do.

No, your feelings aren't a valid reason to despise women. Hating women, Jews, blacks, etc. It doesn't have a firm basis in reality. Human are liable to believe evil things. Does this mean Jews are greedy and hate the goyim? No! In the same way, blaming all of your problems in life on women doesn't mean women are evil.

You need something more substantiating than only your feelings.

try and see why such a movement exists, and nip its reasons for existing in the bud.

Women don't exist to serve you or please you. They're not required to have sex with you or actually do anything for you. It's in your mind. Women deserve every right you do and to be treated the same as you

[–]We_Are_LegionAutumn Red0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]powerkickPoly, Bi, Blue, Betafag4 points5 points6 points 11 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

Rebellion? Rebellion? Perhaps it's because I was raised with an entirely different frame of mind, but the rebellion you refer to is surely the same rebellion the anarchists in Russia referred to when they blew the fucking Czar in half with a barrel bomb.

The same rebellion ISIS takes part with this revolutionary new idea of getting what they want by creating chaos and killing people in creative and gruesome manners.

What is the product of this "rebellion"? You, and the people agreeing with you, may have children and those children may well one day militarize this Chechen-Islamic State terror cult that revels in dehumanizing and a very capable half of the very capable human race.

I'm sorry this comes off so accusatory, but the Red Pill's portioned dosage of "rebellion" would kill civilization if suddenly enacted and encouraged by states, companies, and governments.

There's also this:

we can make a fucking subreddit that generalises just over half the human race with an incredible degree of accuracy and use that knowledge as a proficient weapon in helping men get the upperhand in a social system where they're systemically beaten down.

This is just literally wrong. A) You don't KNOW half the human race. Nobody does. That's just the tip of the iceberg in the flaw of this logic. B) You're not systematically beaten down. Not even close. Call me when mandatory selective male castration becomes legally implemented.

That's just one little snippet of that essay. And you guys AGREE with this guy? Again, sorry I'm so accusatory here, but I feel the hate you so gleefully tote is, to say the least, unhealthy for all remotely involved.

[–]SirNemesistitties not tithe2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]M_rafayCrimson Red-1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

I'm sorry this comes off so accusatory, but the Red Pill's portioned dosage of "rebellion" would kill civilization if suddenly enacted and encouraged by states, companies, and governments.

The RP has been saying this since it started. RP is not sustainable. It is actually dangerous on too large a scale. Thus, RP does not advertise. It seeks zero change in the market. It is not a movement. It is inherently bad if too many people come to it, for our sake and theirs. We only hope IF our numbers grow beyond the hundreds of thousands worldwide already in the manosphere to different degrees and for varying goals, it will cause natural reactionary shift in the market towards positive ends, in the same way feminism shaped the market towards negative ends. Basically, feminism caused a shift in the age-old status quo, we are opportunists taking advantage of stuff you didn't see, motivated as blowback for the negative effects of that shift.

We wont hide the info... because 1) its the internet, so its impossible. hiding it would only lose us control over our ideas 2) we sort of don't care about the negative effects. We're opportunists.

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[–]niczarRed Pill Man0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

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[–]niczarRed Pill Man2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

It's not an ideology in that it does not for example promote universal, moral values. BPers sometimes believe otherwise because they see promiscuity in women being discussed as a bad thing and think it's "slut shaming" or something, when in fact sluts are only considered bad in the context of looking for a long term mate. As always, TRP is amoral.

It's a paradigm in that it's a way of looking at things and a set of methods for achieving desired outcomes. It's something you use for yourself. An ideology is something you want others to adopt for the sake of it. Note that often TRPers will wish someone else took the pill, but that's because they care/empathise with the person and think it would benefit them.

Is it game changing? Well it's definitely changing my game for the better. What has feminism done for me? Admittedly, it's increased the amount of available pussy.

[–]give_me_shinieshere for the bants3 points4 points5 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Ideology is just a system of ideas and ideals, it doesn't have to be moral or universal. TRP has a set of beliefs and ideas (be "alpha", women are eternal children, etc). One cannot be a TRPer without subscribing to these beliefs and behaving in line with them. It's just as much an ideology as feminism is.

Is it game changing? Well it's definitely changing my game for the better. What has feminism done for me? Admittedly, it's increased the amount of available pussy.

Talk about solipsism. I'm not asking about you, though I know you couldn't pass an opportunity to bragplain about all the bitches you be scoring thanks to feminism. I'm asking about whether TRP will ever have the level of influence and the ability to change society in the way that feminism has. Personally, I think it'll always be some angry dudes on the internet.

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[–]RedPill4LYFHeterosexual Red Pill Man-1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

That could be again explained by identification (relating to the main ideas and accepting them, bonding with other members through accepting their opinions) and internalisation (allowing other opinions to affect you to such an extent that they become your own.)

There is also a large fundamental attribution error amongst the members of the red pill, where situation has become inseparable from sociality. The problem with this is that it leads to irrational and emotional behaviour rather than what is desired, which again affects many of the opinions of those within the red pill. It creates a very negative view on women, which results in the opening quote. I am hoping that in the future, the red pill will be able to drift into more rational and well-educated opinions, as they are somewhat underdeveloped and overemotional as it is.

[–]RedPill4LYFHeterosexual Red Pill Man1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

You're tone policing. I was raised being lied to. I was indoctrinated into a world that doesn't actually exist. I have every right to be upset and so does anyone else who has gone through what I've been through. You can claim it's immature all you like, but you won't shame me back into the machine. Men have a right to be discontent with the current state of affairs, and they deserve a place where they can go to express their emotions without being called mysogynists. They deserve a country that doesn't hate them and think of them as less than human for having a penis.

Women, today, typically, are shit. Not all. Some are aware of their nature and they are mindful of it and make their relationships work, and to them I say kudos. The rest, however. Well we say AWALT for a reason. They suck at being women because they are too busy trying to be or compete with men instead of just being respectable women. They are raised wrong. They have piss poor atittudes. They have piss poor morals. They are the women who wind up becoming single mothers or divorce raping their husbands and still have the gull to think they deserve prince charming to come and sweep them off their feet. They are womanchildren. They never grew up mentally because society has coddled them all their lives. They are the ones who respond with underdeveloped and overemotional arguments on here.

You can rationalize TRP all you want, but it aint hard to acknowledge reality once you open your eyes and see for yourself.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

It isn't so much tone policing as it is noticing something I was ignorant to before. In the past, I had rationalised the red pill to the point where I would reject myself as a woman out of disgust, leaving myself in a gender identity crisis. I have just recently decided to take a step back, in order to compare the reality of both genders and their behaviour, and I find that men and women are quite frankly too similar to ignore. This is particularly the case in regards to the women that are viewed with disgust ("sluts") and the behaviour of the men decrying them (endorsing hypersexuality.)

The men of the red pill are simply unable to separate the situation from their immediate social perception. A good example to explain it would be how a victim views their bully. The immediate thought would be "the bully is an arsehole", whereas the situation is that the bully likely suffers from domestic abuse at home and is acting out due to a loss of a sense of power. Until there is capacity for understanding when it is appropriate, many arguments within the red pill are made from an irrational, emotional stand point.

[–]RedPill4LYFHeterosexual Red Pill Man0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

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[–]RedPill4LYFHeterosexual Red Pill Man0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

The way I see it, you're all as bad as each other, and perpetuate a continuous cycle of hedonism because you either wish to take revenge on each other or feel that you are entitled to behave that way.

I don't want it to be this way. I never wanted it to be this way. I just wanted to be a good guy. I wanted a girl who respected me for being a good man. Life didn't present me with that option. All I got was ridicule and abuse. You cannot expect me to just forgive and forget.

I will however leave all this and be a good man if I meet a woman who will be good to me.

To me this isn't bad or good, it's just how it is. As I have never had the urge or desire to have casual sex, it's rather hard for me to really understand why it's worth any effort or getting upset over.

All I ever wanted was to be with someone who loved me for me. I wanted to be monogamous. I wanted to experience the sex that can only be experienced through love. Women have consistently proven they will not have any part of that. Women hate love. They have commitment. They hate being good people who make good decisions. They crave chaos. They adore insanity. They are filthy and wrong. They are nothing like the women I was raised to believe they were. I am more than justified in being upset if I choose to be.

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[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

People want to feel superior.

Counterpoint. People don't want to feel inferior. Tell it long enough to one group of people while the other group (the one that is implied or outright stated to be superior) as a collective fails to live up to these standards of course breeds contempt.

Before you even get out of bed in the morning you are a better human than 3.5 billion people! That must feel amazing!

Well, this is the narrative of our society for women. That they're more empathetic, more pro-social, better with people, more diligent and at least equally capable (they would totally rock the place if it wasn't for that nasty male privilege), more self-controlled, deeper, perpetual victims (so if anything goes wrong, it's not their fault) and what not; while at the same time all shortcomings are swept under the rug because misogyny. And on top of that they experience validation by men to a far greater extent than men do by them (unless they're really unattractive).

You're right, that must feel amazing.

[–]give_me_shinieshere for the bants5 points6 points7 points 11 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]give_me_shinieshere for the bants2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

If a black person went on a hateful rant about whites would you consider that acceptable based on the current cultural climate?

I wouldn't expect him to change the opinions he utters while posing as his online persona just to placate me and assuage my feelings.

I'm sorry but that's not really a satisfactory justification.

Of course you don't consider it satisfactory - after all, you're part of the villified group. Not subscribing to and feeling offended by it is only natural under these circumstances, and I wouldn't expect you to simply accept it. In fact, I would be at the very least irritated if you did (which is also the reason why I'm curious about the motivations of TRP women as well, specifically women who subscribe to TRP as a theory and aren't just living a TRP-compatible lifestyle). Doesn't mean I have to share your stance, though.

I could make an argument for feminist rage and hatred having a legitimate basis.

You're a little late to the party.

[–]give_me_shinieshere for the bants1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

You're right that opinions, especially ones that are based on strong emotions and personal experience/butthurt, are seldom going to be changed by online discussion.

You're a little late to the party.

I actually don't see the point in this link. I assume you don't consider Valerie Solaras' or Dworkin's rage to be justified? You'd consider them hateful misandrists, no? I'm not part of the vilified group in those rants but I still find them objectionable just as I would homophobic or anti-semitic material, despite not belonging to either of those groups. What you're essentially saying is that it's understandable that bigotry against a specific group would be disliked by members of that group, but the rest of us should be down with it. That doesn't really make sense to me. Or, is your argument "you're a woman who can't see past her solipsistic emotions" or summat? I'd find this rant just as abhorrent if it were made by a feminist about men.

[–]sleuthoftradesPurple Pill Man1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]ILU250 shades of purple4 points5 points6 points 11 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

Long story short; that comment disgusts me.

From the moment I've found RP, going on it gives me a bit of sadness. I don't read most RP users, or the sub anymore. I got what "value" I needed. Now I don't even go on it on my main account(which my SO knows). I just have a few people from RP RES marked who I think are really sensible, and often insightful. Even if they're harsh sometimes, they make good points. I don't include IM among them. I think as much as he thinks women are shit, they might think he's shit too. If they knew what he was like when he's honest.

I am not a RPW... I can't say that I am. I don't even know the definition of being one. I just generally find RP theories accurate. Not these rants. The theories. That's is as much credit as I'll give it.

I wish the RP sub called out men some more though. For a sub that prizes itself on reality, it sure seems to only tell one side of the sexual strategy story.

What about men? Why won't RPW examine and theorize with free speech, men?

[–]AFormidableContenderPurple Pill Man1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I think as much as he thinks women are shit, they might think he's shit too. If they knew what he was like when he's honest.

How does this relate to...anything?

I just generally find RP theories accurate. Not these rants. The theories. That's is as much credit as I'll give it.

Why do you find the theories accurate if you find the theory's supporters insensible?

I wish the RP sub called out men some more though. For a sub that prizes itself on reality, it sure seems to only tell one side of the sexual strategy story.

For what, and how would you want men to be called out? How is RP only telling "one side of the sexual strategy story"?

What about men? Why won't RPW examine and theorize with free speech, men?

Because, I would suggest, a social theory devised by men already takes men (men's actions, behaviors, and typical world views) into account. Why would RWP or TRP need to theorize about men?

[–]SirNemesistitties not tithe0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I am not a RPW... I can't say that I am. I don't even know the definition of being one. I just generally find RP theories accurate. Not these rants. The theories. That's is as much credit as I'll give it.

Yeah, that's the nature of reddit.

I wish the RP sub called out men some more though. For a sub that prizes itself on reality, it sure seems to only tell one side of the sexual strategy story. What about men? Why won't RPW examine and theorize with free speech, men?

Well this is because RPW is the female counterpart to TRP in the sense that it is focused on self-improvement. It is not the counterpart in the sense of being focused on sexual strategy (if it were, it would be teaching how to get away with AFBB). One could say though, that in going with the men are gatekeepers of commitment, women are gatekeepers of sex phenomenon, RPW teaches women commitment strategy.

However, male sexual strategy is somewhat analyzed in the broader manosphere.

[–]RedPill4LYFHeterosexual Red Pill Man0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS-1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]AFormidableContenderPurple Pill Man3 points4 points5 points 11 years ago* (13 children) | Copy Link

As a RedPill man, I never understood the logic behind being a RedPill woman. Even if you logically agree with the tenents of TRP, RedPill men have little to no respect for all women in general. You'd be better off sucking value out of those RP deems betas and fucking the natural alphas as these women already do.

Even agreeing with TRP tenents makes no sense to me as they're derogatory to their gender, albeit it's a philosphical world view and while philosophical worldviews cannot be inherently sexist, not many people with a vagina could read TRP and not be insulted.

If anything, I would expect women who come to agree with TRP males about the nature of women to accept TRP judgements that women are shitheads and get away with it because vagina, and how awesome that state of being is; not that they'd wanna attempt to live up to TRP expectations of real women.

In fact, in a twisted, almost comical manner, RPW seem to be the mirror opposite of Feminists; where feminists solipsisticly huddle over the demanding of privileges they aren't deserving of and the begruding when those demands aren't socially met, RPW seem to solipsistically huddle over self righteousness in thinking they are above both men, and their "less evolved" female sisters. The subreddit itself regularly silences dissenting opinions, or those who point out flaws in poster's logic, and is in no real way different from feminists havens like, say, /r/AskWomen

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[–]RedPill4LYFHeterosexual Red Pill Man0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I hate what women are in comparison to what I was taught that they were. I hate that society lied to me. I hate that the system lied to me. I hate feminism. I think this life of slavery and blind consumerism is a cruel and unusual existence. I think people who insist that I hate women hate me because I'm upset that I lived a lie, and they don't give a flying fuck about the whole life being a lie part, so I don't give a god damn what they think. I hate this patriarchy that women are hell bent on fighting. I hate that the patriarchy has oppressed me so, too. I hate that even though I have suffered, I am still hated for being male and white.

I think you can fuck off if you wanna call me a misogynist. I'm done supporting a system that hates me for no good reason. I've drawn my line. I'm finished arguing these accusations.

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[–]AFormidableContenderPurple Pill Man0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Because their problem wasn't that they didn't hate women enough, they had an unrealistic view of women and have just switched to a different unrealistic view of women, only with hatred instead of adoration.

This is a disingenuous representation of angry RedPill men. They had an opinion of women that was, at the very least, functioning as a moral equal, and at the very most, functioning as a moral paragon. Along the course of life, they come to question that belief through anecdote, and upon finding TRP are validated in their belief that infact, women are now a morally (and now literally mentally) reprehensible collection of creatures.

That is a judgement call. I will concede that anger has a lot to do with it. I personally hated women when I joined TRP. I would not say I have grown to love women, or that my opinion of women has in any significant way changed for the positive, as if women are inherently wonderful, or not worthy of the feeling of hate any longer. I simply don't HATE them any longer. That doesn't mean I'd be particularly bothered if I woke up tomorrow and 90% of the female population had vanished.

It makes no sense to me that people like you think people like OP are insane for making a judgement call on a group of people. As I told /u/ILoveMyHubby, you can no more accuse someone who hates anything including women of being insane, than you can accuse someone who hates lemon pie of being insane.

No, I think they're searching for a reason why they don't do well with women, and an explanation that shits on women and not them is damn enticing.

Again, I'd argue a disingenuous, dishonest arguent that ironically is probably very "damn enticing" for you because it's easy and digestible for your own personal world view (that, from the sounds of it, women are great, or at least no worse than men, and have many redeeming features/provide pleasurable experiences). People who don't do well with the opposite gender are more or less perfectly aware why they don't do well, at least, in communities like Seddit, or TRP. Obviously you CAME to TRP specifically because you suck with women and you know why, and now you've finally found people who will tell you the truth about everything.

Men like this may be angry because they're upset at the bar women set for the standards of attraction and may be angry that they feel they cannot meet it. By the same token, I feel people like you think spewing nebulous buzzphrases regarding placing the burden of excessive personal improvement constitutes a real counter argument. It doesn't.

Ie. there's a business in my city that only hires hot young college girls. They don't hide this, they put it in their adds in the windows. I don't begrudge any woman for feeling inbittered that they cannot work at this location if they are good workers but can't get a call back because they can't lose the last 10 lbs. Or 20 lbs. Or 30lbs. Maybe someone like you telling them "stop complaing. It's your fault. Get hot" is to some extent valid, as there's many other places she could work. Now imagine that work places is the only work place, and she was cursed with shitty genes. If you're argument is still "stop complaining, it's your fault, get hot", I'd tell you to fuck right off, and I'd be right for doing so.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

It makes no sense to me that people like you think people like OP are insane for making a judgement call on a group of people.

It makes perfect sense. A vagina is not an indicator of being such a narrowly defined category of person. He cannot make such a claim for three and a half billion people.

ou can no more accuse someone who hates anything including women of being insane

He thinks he can know 3.5 billion people based on what's between their legs, that's fucking insane.

and you know why, and now you've finally found people who will tell you the truth about everything.

You know why but you had to be told by TRP why.

Now imagine that work places is the only work place,

Now imagine the most inapplicable scenario because women are not a fucking monolith, there are literally billions of them in all sorts of variety. BILLIONS. Or be a fucking moron like illimitableman who can't handle the complexity of people and decide they must all fit into one neat little category convenient for shitting upon.

[–]AFormidableContenderPurple Pill Man0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

It makes perfect sense. A vagina is not an indicator of being such a narrowly defined category of person. He cannot make such a claim for three and a half billion people.

No one said he was. No sane person is going to assert a woman living under fundamentalist Saudi Arabia is no different than a 19yr old American college girl. Obvisouly you have to assume "women" referse to first world women, probably from the Americas who have similar cultural backgrounds and analagous life experiences.

He thinks he can know 3.5 billion people based on what's between their legs, that's fucking insane.

Not really. Women and men are different, and therefore, generalities are possible. If generalities weren't possible, life would literally not work. If women were as much special snowflakes as you seem inclined to believe, our species wouldn't exist. Everyone can generally agree on in gendered things so long as they are intellectually honest and don't have a psychological inclination not too.

You know why but you had to be told by TRP why.

No, that was refering to the feeling of finally finding people with a similar philosophical conclusion derived from similar experiences.

Now imagine the most inapplicable scenario because women are not a fucking monolith,

Whatever drugs you're smoking, please, hook me up because I know a guy and I'd love some free spending money.

What are you talking about women are not a monolith? There are only two genders, bud, and last time I chequed, her egg is a lot more valuable than my billions of sperm. Women are the gatekeepers of sex. If you can't agree with that, than I'd argue you're not an intellectually honest individual and don't belong on this subreddit.

there are literally billions of them in all sorts of variety. BILLIONS.

The number of a given commodity has nothing to do with the variations between said commodity. You can have as many Earths filled with as many women as you like, the obese unemployed balding loser is not fucking Rosie Huntington-Whitely. Ever. And there's good, demonstrably consistent, verifiable reasons for that.

Or be a fucking moron like illimitableman who can't handle the complexity of people and decide they must all fit into one neat little category convenient for shitting upon.

As if white knighting for pedestal paragons that don't exist is a morally superior options...Good luck with that. Why are you even here?

[–]Gottlos-1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

TRP addresses common traits. You can probably think of a few traits the entire human race shares so why not women as a whole? Frankly, saying everyone is different and complex is a cop out. There are patterns and things to learn about the general population of women and these can help you. If you can't understand why the language is harsh it is because generally men don't sugar coat things as much as women. Women in general are people pleasers. Are all of em like that? Nope. Enough to fill a stereotpe.

It's pretty clear a lot of men like to be hyperbolic. It's almost like men in general don't give a shit about pleasing people and just want to make a big splash. You get nothing done if you try to please everyone anyway. Also, that's why TRP won't change... you're more likely to change your views frankly. They don't care what you think.

I don't see why not knowing anything about common traits will help in any manner. Understand that to even identify outliers you have to know what common traits they do and don't have. Treating things in a general manner until you learn the nuances of a person is a perfectly acceptable thing to do. TRP advocates adaptability and not a hardline "do this and it will always work" cookie cutter approach. It doesn't tell you to treat everyone the same. It just gives you some tools to work with. You can screw in a screw with a screwdriver or you can stab it in someone's eye. How you use tools is based on your upbringing and genetics and not a subreddit about sexual strategy. If you have morals you think about moral ways to use those tools. I've seen you before and you keep talking about all the bad ways you can use TRP strategy. I think that's more indicative of the person you are than anything it says about TRP. People aren't defined by their tools but by how they use them.

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I don't know, I didn't say a word about freedom of speech. Freedom of speech only refers to government action, no one has freedom of speech vis a vis other people or in the private sphere. So that's not what I object to about it. In fact, I don't object to it unless it comes from the government, I don't understand why people kow tow to it, I certainly don't and won't, thats on them. As for "being held accountable", go ahead and try to "hold me accountable" with your lefty swear words, I don't care what you think and my position in the world can't be threatened by the left, yet. I think it's funny that you think calling someone bad names for expressing opinions you don't like is "holding them accountable" though.

I feel bad for people who's lives are destroyed by political correctness but I also understand that that's what life is like under a regime of fascist leftist thought control and sucks to be them

[–]RedPill4LYFHeterosexual Red Pill Man8 points9 points10 points 11 years ago (29 children) | Copy Link

When I read something like this it clicks for me. I get it. It's not misogyny. It's anger for sure, and I believe it's completely and utterly justified. It's a response to the typical attitudes of modern women having egos the size of the sun in terms of their worth as people. It's just a guy warning other guys not to get tied down in this bullshit we call modern dating and relationships. He's doing exactly what Feminists do. He's letting the men know that there's no reason to be traditional and to walk the hell away from the expected role that pigeonholes men into lives of servitude for table scraps.

The dating game is so heavily stacked in favor of women that the best move is not to play at all.

Women have more or less become completely undependable in relationships unless you take an active role in shaping it into something manageable, but then again, why go to all that effort when there's plenty of loose pussy all around you? Why go to the effort of literally training a ho to be a housewife when you can just live the bachelor lifestyle and fuck whoever you want without all the hassle of the traditional route? If women are growing up thinking it's okay to sleep around, having shitloads of potential fuck buddies on and offline then there's no reason to commit. There is no purity, so there is no incentive to want to tie yourself to one girl for the rest of your life.

Do you realize a lot of us grew up in a generation where we were constantly being bashed for being men? Do you know what it's like to be an honest person trying to make an honest way through life, trying to be a good person for a good woman, only to be told shit like, "You're only with me cause you want in my pants"? That shit gets old, and you can only hear it a few times before you start feeling insulted to the pit of your soul.

Meanwhile, I look around me and I see women in relationships with less than reputable men who truly don't have any respect for them. Women have become warped over the last few decades. They shun the good men because they are "boring", and chase alpha asshole cock in their youths. Then they want to settle down post wall. It's just a crock of shit of a life to live to be expected to still want a woman who lives that way.

If women wanna say this is misogyny they only have themselves to blame. I'm done pretending to be understanding. I'm done being a nice guy. Women have collectively killed relationships by stepping all over men with their attitudes. The only viable route for sex is to be a bad boy and not care about relationships. Hookup culture should never have become a mainstream term.

That's the thing, you'll try to pin this on it being about the sex. Yeah, it's about sex now. Who the hell in their right mind lives the better part of their life being mistreated and ignored by women and then still wants to get married to an old hag with a shitload of baggage? Why would any of us still be thinking seriously about something like marriage if this is the way that privileged free empowered modern women behave and think?

That's real entitlement.

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[–]nomdplumeFormer Alpha1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

Do you realize a lot of us grew up in a generation where we were constantly being bashed for being men? Do you know what it's like to be an honest person trying to make an honest way through life, trying to be a good person for a good woman, only to be told shit like, "You're only with me cause you want in my pants"? That shit gets old, and you can only hear it a few times before you start feeling insulted to the pit of your soul.

Dude, that's just a beginner level shit-test from a woman. Easiest fucking shit-test to pass with flying colors. I get that, if you don't understand women, you would be insulted, but once you understand that shit-test for what it is, you can put it behind you instantly.

What, you mean women don't trust men? Even the "nice" ones? Say it isn't so! /s

Incidentally, proper responses involve some reference to "Yes" if you do, and "No" if you don't. I find Amused Mastery works very well there, but whatever way you want to frame your response, it's not hard if you have a solid sense of who you are and what you want.

[–]RedPill4LYFHeterosexual Red Pill Man0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

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[–]RedPill4LYFHeterosexual Red Pill Man-1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

They're not behaving poorly, they're behaving in their own best interest

Already I can see you're still thinking about the way things are now, and how you've adapted to it. I'm looking at this rationally and seeing that relationships really don't have to be so illogical. The problem is that women have grown up in a society that tells them this is how they should behave or else they are not empowered. Alter the way women are socialized and shit-testing could be stigmatized and frowned upon.

I accept that women intellectually shit-test, but that doesn't mean it's right or acceptable behavior.

Now, we live in a culture that ill-prepares men for handling shit tests. THAT'S what needs to be attacked.

Or, as I am alluding to, we can just change the narrative, which will eventually happen, so that women are no longer permitted to do so as a socially acceptable way of finding a worthy man. You got to look at this from a broader perspective to really understand what I'm saying. This current culture we live in is shit. It needs reform. Society is crumbling because men have been raised to be pussies, I agree. But why put a band aid on the problem when we can fix the problem entirely?

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[–]nomdplumeFormer Alpha0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

They are behaving poorly for doing it in the first place.

No, they are not. They are behaving in their self-interest. How would you have them behave? Like the nice little trusting princesses you grew up believing them to be?

"Poorly" is a moral judgement. Basic premise of The Red Pill is that sexual dynamics are amoral. There is no right/wrong, good/bad about it. You know why? Because right/wrong, good/bad are completely subjective perceptions and, as such, cannot be universally applied. They are counter-productive, in that they have people deal with how they want things to be instead of how they are.

People act in their self-interest. They aren't as trusting as you would like them to be. Even the "good" people will still fuck things up a lot. Those are just facts. You either learn to operate within those parameters and learn to manage them and be productive and efficient despite them, or you will consistently experience failure.

You know what? I love it when women ask me that question. It gives me the opportunity to talk about the elephant in the room and clarify my position right off the bat. It give me a chance to put them at ease. So what if they are doing it because they are insecure, or frightened, or distrusting, or immature - they're human. That's how humans are. Better for them to show me their humanity up front so I can deal with it, as opposed to them being that way while pretending they're not. They are actually being courageous, in their own way, and I respect them for it.

[–]RedPill4LYFHeterosexual Red Pill Man0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

No, they are not. They are behaving in their self-interest. How would you have them behave? Like the nice little trusting princesses you grew up believing them to be?

Well considering that is what they claimed to be...however, what's so wrong with expecting women to grow up and just be loving respectable women capable of having direct intelligent conversations? Why should I be the only adult?

"Poorly" is a moral judgement. Basic premise of The Red Pill is that sexual dynamics are amoral. There is no right/wrong, good/bad about it. You know why? Because right/wrong, good/bad are completely subjective perceptions and, as such, cannot be universally applied. They are counter-productive, in that they have people deal with how they want things to be instead of how they are.

This basic premise you're parroting only arises because women are by nature amoral lovers. Men are not. Instead of fixing the problem, TRP proposes to just get with the program and learn how to just deal with and sidestep shit tests instead of eliminating any incentive to shit test in the first place.

Which is why we take back control of the narrative for what right and wrong are. I'm aware of how percetion works. I understand the meaning of perspective. If you cannot see how shit-testing is poor behavior, then I feel sorry for you, but it's blatantly obvious from my point of view. It needs to be discouraged and punished, because it's childish and manipulative.

I'm tired of women walking around talking only in passive accountability-dodging manipulative tongues. Never being direct. Never taking responsibility. Never owning what they say. It's disrespectful and completely dishonest.

People act in their self-interest. They aren't as trusting as you would like them to be. Even the "good" people will still fuck things up a lot. Those are just facts. You either learn to operate within those parameters and learn to manage them and be productive and efficient despite them, or you will consistently experience failure.

Your agenda is to defend shit-testing, the status quo. Women can act in self-interest without resorting to manipulative behavior.

You know what? I love it when women ask me that question. It gives me the opportunity to talk about the elephant in the room and clarify my position right off the bat. It give me a chance to put them at ease. So what if they are doing it because they are insecure, or frightened, or distrusting, or immature - they're human. That's how humans are. Better for them to show me their humanity up front so I can deal with it, as opposed to them being that way while pretending they're not. They are actually being courageous, in their own way, and I respect them for it.

What if there were no stigma for women to ask questions related to sex without it being viewed as slutty? Wouldn't that free women to ask these questions without fear? Wouldn't that clear up the need for trust if it were just as socially acceptable as asking a stranger the time of day? Don't you think society as a whole would appear much more mature if the topic of sex was destigmatized? Why does the topic require courage at all?

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points 11 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

By definition it is misogyny. The answer to the question how bad is it? is how much damage or benefit comes out of it. In order to do that you must understand what the underlying goal/result of that post is: He's almost a MGTOW. Can't really say much damage comes from it since he's basically saying don't rely on women to fulfill your life in any meaningful way beyond sexual/physical relations. When I read this post I imagine illimitablemen yanking a pedestal from under a woman and not giving her a cushion to land on and finally walking away. The pedestal placed there by society which illimitablemen feels is unearned. It's basically a rant against relationships. While I disagree with him, I do so respectfully and I understand him. He sees the ugliest nature of women and thinks all women are capable of it under the right circumstances. Because of this, he checks out of the dating game unless it's by his own terms (casual sex) which limits the possibility of seeing this ugly side of women.

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He was not being sarcastic when he said to embrace misogyny until it loses its meaning.

What do you think?

I think misogyny has already lost its meaning. Idgaf when people label me as a misogynist regardless of the accuracy of the perspective. I think any behavior attributed to masculinity has become misogynistic. I would encourage men to embrace their masculinity.

His particular post is an opinion I would agree with mostly. I don't think women are shit. That's about the only thing I can find that I disagree with perhaps besides relying upon hookers for sex. I love women's femininity. I love the way that certain traits of women's femininity complement the masculinity that I provide.

Could I use a rehearsed line that would work on a majority of women? Yes. I've done it and to a much larger extent I've seen it with some of the examples done on tinder. There are only two rules for me on regards to what you can say to a woman and get away with.

Be Attractive
Don't Be Unattractive

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The first thing I always think when I see suggestions of bro-ing it up for life and never "settling down" is that biologically it is a complete fail in just about every sense. I would be interested to see the life of a bachelor at 75 years old when his social security checks haven't been enough to pay for hookers with as much regularity as he is used to and lord knows he can't pick up women at a bar anymore. Any of those men I have seen are definitely far from happy. I'm not saying it's undoubtedly a terrible decision and men should get married and have babies or else, I just don't understand it as a viable longterm suggestion.

As far as the basic message, I pretty much agree that this depicts one side of the sexual marketplace. I have a thing about balance that I recognize and have been trying to squash, and as I was reading I kept thinking "but men do this too..." or "the male equivalent of that is this other thing." Just because men can have bad qualities too doesn't make the bad qualities of women nonexistent or any less shitty. If you look at it for what it is and don't try to bring implications of male superiority into it, and of course filter out the harsh tone, then sure. Some of it is pretty dead on. Women do have these qualities in varying degrees.

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Fucking escorts and partying

lol no thanks jeff.

Women are shit

What? Women are different from men; stop judging them by male standards.

Hypergamy necessitates it. She requires your superiority to be attracted to you, that's probably the biggest joke about "equality."

To some extent I agree.

Women have an incredible predilection for mental violence to make up for their lack of physical strength.

Agreed, but that's an evolutionary survival tool. It works and has worked for 100,00+ years.

Women's emotions make them impulsive and irrational

No, not irrational. Very rational, but only on one level removed from the conversation. A woman who is "irrational" in an argument can derive her desired goals by being staunchly irrational and getting a man to give up on the argument and give in to what she wants. That's deadly practical and rational.

We can literally redefine transactional sex from "shit woman does to control you" to "something women are paid to do and then quickly leave because you don't want the crazy parasite trying to dig her claws into your life"

"We can be beta bux! Let's go!"

Overall, this comes across as really whiny.

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[–]deepthrillAlreadyRed Mod, TRP Endorsed Contributor0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I would go back and ask you: Does it matter if you can label with the current definition of misogyny? The real question you should be asking is "is the content incorrect" not "did he say it hatefully".

That man would probably never respect a woman enough to marry, for example, and he may hate them (although I doubt he actually hates them). But so what? Who cares if it's misogyny or not?

I could spend some time trying to convince you that it's not misogynistic or whatever, as plenty of other RP men here have tried.

But I'd turn it around and ask: who cares? It doesn't affect your life. The only idea I can have is that you'd be trying to "save" future girls by stomping out these "misogynistic" men. But so what? Let people think whatever they want. I have no intention of changing anybody's mind who doesn't want to change. People are free to be hateful, whatever. I will react to their actions if I believe they are going to unnecessarily hurt somebody, but I don't care what somebody's thought processes are.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

No, it doesn't matter what i label it. That's not so interesting.

As to your questions, the answers are yes, and yes.

But when you ask those questions, you're justifying whatever - ism, by saying it's not an - ism because it's true. Racism, anti-semitism, homophobia, islamophobia, people are sincere in their hate, disgust or dislike. If they didn't believe what they were saying was true, they wouldn't be that -ism, would they?

So now you ask, why do I care?

Because it's an interesting question. I can claim RP is sexist and or misogynist til the cows come home and RPs shrug and say it isn't.

I mean, really. Are we reading the same sub? Are we seeing the same posts? Are they just ignoring the piles and piles of misogyny there? Do they just not see it anymore because it's so commonplace?

And then all this tap dancing about what the word means. I'm quite satisfied that this thread has given me an opportunity to nail it down.

Here is a post. An (almost) Full post. In context, , with the link, that I think is a perfect example of misogyny. So we're on the same page. We're reading the same thing.

So I pose the question? What is your definition of misogyny? And by that definition, do you find the post misogynist?

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Misogyny doesn't exist. Misogyny is women hate, and deeming it misogynist and hence, that misogyny is wrong and should be addressed or corrected by moderate "sane" RP's, denotes it's a problem, or that the concept of hating women is flawed, which is itself, flawed, because it assumes women are not deserving of hate, which is a subjective judgement call that can't be judged.

If I decide women are shit, you can't tell me women aren't shit, anymore than you can tell me im wrong for disliking lemon pie, which is disgusting.

Didn't you swear off talking with me or something? Aren't you going to stick to it? I'd hate for you to be waffling on your resolutions.

I declared you not worth any serious investment of time. I didn't swear off talking with you, although my message is more or less global, and not specifically directed at you, as I seriously doubt you have the mental capacity to understand what I'm even typing right now, and have already came up with three different logically inconsistent and hamstered arguments.

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I'll also add - they say cynicism is the last refuge for an idealist.

I myself was a mighty-idealist-turned-tragic-cynic once upon a time and way back in the day. I see my young self in a lot of the angry rants.

The problem is, rather than giving up the idealism, they are just redirecting and refashioning their idealism to accommodate new perceived truths. Now it's not about wives, it's about sex! No wait, it's about plates! No, wait, it's about men! Holding out the hope that, if they just find the right "truth", they can attach their ideals to it. Or they can just give up and become resigned cynics.

But from where I sit now, just as idealism regarding the opposite sex is destructive, cynicism offers no powerful alternative. You're fucked either way.

I see TRP, when properly understood and applied, as truly contributing to the removal of the unproductive, inefficient, and painful sense of idealism AND cynicism from everyone's life. It feels way more graceful and natural than constantly analyzing, judging, and assessing every little thing that happens against an ideal. It's just getting that what you have to work with is what you have to work with. There is no other way that things "should" be.

[–]IllimitableManRed Pill Writer - http://illimitablemen.com/0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]IllimitableManRed Pill Writer - http://illimitablemen.com/0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

I think narcissistic, neurotic, consumeristic, death-desiring Western culture itself has rotted and there's little reason to stick around and support it.

Correct and replacing ideology such as religion with feminism has had a large contribution to that (mainly the destruction of the nuclear family, which seeps into everything else) but it's not the only factor, merely a significant one. I do believe I mention religion in that post and how it is a lesser evil in my opinion than feminism for controlling the negatives of female sexuality (and likewise, male promiscuity, Islam/Mormonism aside.)

This guy has a more narrow viewpoint - women are the problem. Meh.

Incorrect, context is everything, OP is talking about the shittyness of women, which is why my response focuses on discussing them. If I discussed corporatism, the dilution of education or nutrition it'd be off topic in thread so it doesn't get addressed.

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[–]deepthrillAlreadyRed Mod, TRP Endorsed Contributor0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

and this "all women are shit" post is a representative example of TRP's ideology, then it logically follows that their captains, potential and real, consider them shit.

Nah, you're assuming that the men these RPW are dating are similar to the linked post. I know for a fact that the person in the post would never consider a marriage with a woman based on our discussions, and therefore would not be the "target demographic" of the RPW.

There are plenty of other RP men that the RPW would love to date. He may be representative of the general idealogy, but the RPW are not looking to have a LTR with the average plate-spinning red piller.

But this is essentially the same as "overcoming myself and remaking myself into a special snowflake", though in more TRP-approved language.

I disagree. I think it's an extreme for of attempting self awareness and self improvement. They don't think they are special and different. They believe that they are attempting to move up the spectrum of what makes a woman a "good catch" and "better". You don't have to believe you're unique to believe that you are attempting to be better.

You may disagree with the facets of RP that the RPW attempt to overcome (you may not think they exist in you, or you may not think they are necessary to overcome) but that's just a difference of opinion.

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I think this guy is the closest to it.

http://www.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/2gsl2k/what_do_red_pill_women_think_of_these_trp/ckm5syr

RPW consider themselves to be acting against their worst natures. To become better people. To become better spouses. I can get behind this. This is truly self-improvement. The part I don't agree with is they say that it's just women with these horrible inclinations. We all have them. Some more emphasized in some people.

That being said, the self-awareness they have, the ability to back track, question themselves, correct themselves and do the best they can for the person they love most in the world?

And they try and help others do the same.

Honestly? I don't understand the hate they get.

So the response would be: yeah? So? This is how I combat these tendencies.

If this isn't correct hopefully they'll say so.

[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

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Apart from the fact that you'll probably find similar posts when you delve deep enough into the less pleasant corners of feminist communities, I restrict myself to the "male experience", i.e. the disdain for men and masculinity in itself, which is less "in your face" than the misogyny you'll find at TRP, but much more pervasive and omnipresent. The following is an answer I gave to the question whether our culture is lacking a positive male identity. I may as well repeat it here because, quite frankly, this was reality as I've experienced it most of my life (and this isn't even exhausting the subject, I might as well have come up with far more points).

Well...

classical male archetypes get ridiculed and are presented as outdated, problematic, archaic or having a unreasonably dangerous/unhealthy lifestyle

boys are encouraged to get in touch with their sensitive, feminine side, to be "more like girls", girls may be encouraged to be more assertive and decisive, but it's never about getting in touch with their "masculine side"

male behavior and male drives get questioned, even vilified early on. Being energetic, active, competitive, loud, disobient, having a stronger libido - any of these traits have to be curtailed or directed into more civilized avenues. However, when girls are that way, it's good because they're "empowered" and they deserve support, when girls are meek and quiet, it's okay because they just are that way and they deserve support as well.

rape is not only presented as an almost-exclusive male-to-female problem (which admittedly isn't that far off), but any rape accusations directed at men are generally considered factual (which they aren't); thus playing into the narrative that all men if not left unchecked have the potential of being rapists

when a man has it hard, the problem is himself, when a woman has it hard, society is to blame

the droves of more or less made-up and heavily biased statistics that show how bad women have it (this doesn't mean that all of these statistics or just the larger part are made up, just that these statistics are usually taken at face value because it would be sexist to question them)

when women are better or more prominent as a group in a certain field or subject at school or in the universitites (linguistics, psychology...) it's seen as a success and as confirmation that women are better; when it's the same way for men (STEM/MINT...), it's seen as a failure and as a confirmation that the system is biased towards men

when women excel at school in general and are more prominent at the colleges it's taken as confirmation that women are better, when men get the better grades or become more successful at work it's again seen as a failure and as a confirmation that the system is biased towards men

the media bombardment that all problems in the world are because of men and the implied or direct assumption that the world would be a muuuuuch better place if women were in charge

instances where women are usually victims in any way are focused on and presented as misogynic crimes, while the usual "women and children first" is taken for granted. Example: Indiscriminate mass executions of men during wartime are considered a crime against the population in question and not an anti-male crime, while the fact that the mass rapings that may occur after the mass executions are specifically played up as crimes against women. The saying "it's women (and children) who suffer most in war" is taken at face value, just as if fighting (and dying) in wars was somehow a funny passtime activity for men

divorce and separation is presented at morally questionable when men are getting rid of their aging wives in favor of younger ones, but the fact that women initiate two thirds of the divorces usually gets glossed over

in general: In the media, men break up for frivolous reasons, while women break up for serious reasons

cheating is usually presented as something guys do, while women are faithful (just take your average TV show or movie); and if women cheat, it's usually presented as understandable, while men cheating is generally because he can't keep his pants on

dating and relationship advice is usually presented from the feminine perspective and caters to female needs (towards men: be attentive. be communicative. be romantic. bring her gifts. take some of her workload. tell her how uber-awesome she is. appreciate the efforts she makes. tell her how much you love her; towards women: you deserve it. don't beat yourself up about your looks. don't be afraid to make demands. etc.) while the male perspective is glossed over (I can't remember reading any in-depth explanation of how to deal with nagging, overly demanding, affection/sex-withholding women where it wasn't somehow the man's fault in the end).

Oh, edit: Men who complain about all this are "whiny" and insecure and are unwilling to face the fact that a glorious future with full equality for both genders that will ultimately benefit mankind is upon us.

I could go on, but I think I made my point. In general, we are told from earliest childhood that women are equally able in every regard but (due to the hype surrounding the fact that there are areas where women excel) at the same time objectively better. So we were fed from all directions (school books, media, journalism, "academic" studies, policy makers etc.) that women are men are not just of equal value, but totally equal in character and preferences, and any time when nature takes its course and the results don't conform to that ideal, the male-dominated society is at fault (unless women are better at something, then everything is okay). This also extends to the moral sphere: Pointing out the... less appealing traits more typical to females (catfighting, backbiting and backstabbing, manipulativeness, capriciousness, lack of loyalty) is a total no-go, while pointing out male shortcomings (aggressiveness, lack of discipline, unchecked libido, propensity for violence and substance abuse) is okay. With women being exemplary, men are perceived as being by definition deficient, not only from a behavioral, but also from a moral point of view, and conforming to a more feminine ideal (being gentle, emotional, always tact- and respectful, refraining from violence of any kind) is seen as desireable. Okay, I see that up to the middle-to-late 20th century women still were oftentimes presented as deficient in a comparable way (just check some 70s TV spots), but going 180 on us can't be the solution, can it?

I don't know how you guys are, but during my childhood and adolescence, somehow I always had the feeling that I had to apologize for being a dude, and, more than that, that it was on some level expected of me (and the only way to really make up for this was becoming a huge supplicating beta). So, if you're asking whether our culture is lacking a positive male identity, well, how to put it... how about YES?

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Apart from the fact that you'll probably find similar posts when you delve deep enough into the less pleasant corners of feminist communities

Yes, I agree. A bunch of tumblr feminists that aren't representative of much are very analagous to TRP and the types of posts that are shown here.

However, despite your screed, you didn't answer the question. When I asked you about the post and whether or not it was misogynist, you said that TRP talks about the less than stellar qualities of men all the time. So... it's the same?

And so I ask again:

You've got an equivalent to that post their aimed at men? You've got oodles of threads going into great depth into just how shitty people men really are? Spoiled narcissistic children that eschew responsibility? You've got that level of vitriol and disdain aimed at men?

Men have less than stellar traits does not equal women are shit.

[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

However, despite your screed, you didn't answer the question. When I asked you about the post and whether or not it was misogynist, you said that TRP talks about the less than stellar qualities of men all the time. So... it's the same?

No, TRP doesn't talk about the less than stellar qualities of men as a collective all the time, society as a whole does (hence my last post). TRP jazzes masculine qualities, but considering the "you go grrrl" and "I'm proud to be a woman" and "being female is awesome"-stuff that gets shoved our collective throats on a regular basis, I dare to say that a male space that celebrates being a man isn't that much to ask.

But if you want to know whether I think that the quoted post was misogynist, I freely admit that I consider it so. I also think that a lot of the other stuff that's freely available in the wider manosphere in general and on /r/theredpill in particular is; and actually think it's rather ridiculous when redpillers deny that. However, all the other stuff I said still applies, so I can live with that.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

We are talking about TRP. I don't see anything in society that is equivalent to that post being discussed. dregs of the internet are the dregs of the internet. Modern society is nowhere near what TRP is full of.

I freely admit that I consider it so. I also think that a lot of the other stuff that's freely available in the wider manosphere in general and on /r/theredpill in particular is; and actually think it's rather ridiculous when redpillers deny that.

Thank you for explaining. My thoughts exactly.

I dare to say that a male space that celebrates being a man isn't that much to ask.

I agree with you there.

I had this conversation with /u/hyperreal in the thread about male role models. It was interesting. There are male spaces that celebrate being a male. He doesn't connect with them. Perhaps you don't either.

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You assumed I did not notice misandric comments in my environment for no others reason than to justify in your head

No, its because trashing men is normal in our culture and because you make a big deal out of trp, as if its doing something unusual that isn't already being done to men in mainstream culture.

But now, you suddenly refer to examples on the internet. Well duh! Of course there exist awful comments from women.

Right. the womens mainstream is full of examples that are equal or worse to trp.

What are you referring to?

Endless articels and PSAs covering up abuse of women to misrepresent abuse as male.

Jezebele editors and commentators celebrating and laughing about beating their partners.

TV show hosts and studio audience scoffing and laughing about a woman mutilating a man.

edited for clarity

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You've never read any second wave feminism then. Have you read Valerie Solanis's "SCUM manifesto"? SCUM stood for "society for cutting up men"

Andrea Dworkin

“...[W]omen and men are distinct species or races ... men are biologically inferior to women; male violence is a biological inevitability; to eliminate it, one must eliminate the species/race itself ... in eliminating the biologically inferior species/race Man, the new Ubermensch Womon (prophetically foreshadowed by the lesbian separatist herself) will have the earthly dominion that is her true biological destiny. We are left to infer that the society of her creation will be good because she is good, biologically good. In the interim, incipient Super Womon will not do anything to ‘encourage’ women to ‘collaborate’ with men--no abortion clinics or battered woman sanctuaries will come from her. After all, she has to conserve her ‘energy’ which must not be dissipated keeping ‘weaker’ women alive through reform measures. The audience applauded the passages on female superiority/male inferiority enthusiastically. This doctrine seemed to be music to their ears.” (from a panel on “Lesbianism as a Personal Politic” that met in New York City, Lesbian Pride Week 1977; Andrea Dworkin, Letters >From a War Zone - Take Back The Day - Biological Superiority: The World's Most Dangerous and Deadly Idea (1977), Dutton Publishing, 1989, p. 146)"

Susan Brownmiller

"“[Rape] is nothing more or less than a conscious process of intimidation by which all men keep all women in a state of fear.” (Susan Brownmiller, Against Our Will: Men, Women and Rape, Secker & Warburg, 1975, p. 6)"

Mary Daly

"“If life is to survive on this planet, there must be a decontamination of the Earth. I think this will be accompanied by an evolutionary process that will result in a drastic reduction of the population of males. People are afraid to say that kind of stuff anymore.” (from a 2001 interview with What Is Enlightenment magazine [referencing] Mary Daly, Quintessence...Realizing the Archaic Future: A Radical Elemental Feminist Manifesto, Beacon Press, 1998)"

Rose Manno

"“Men are from another planet, sent here by spaceships to copulate with female earthlings and propagate the species—a task for which science has rendered them all but redundant. We need keep only a handful of donors on a sperm farm for that purpose, where they can subsist on pizza and beer and Playboy magazine.” (Toronto Star, January 11, 1999, p. 31)

Ti-Grace Atkinson

"“The price of clinging to the enemy [a man] is your life. To enter into a relationship with a man who has divested himself as completely and publicly from the male role as much as possible would still be a risk. But to relate to a man who has done any less is suicide. . . . I, personally, have taken the position that I will not appear with any man publicly, where it could possibly be interpreted that we were friends.” (Ti-Grace Atkinson, Amazon Odyssey, Links Books, 1974, pp. 90, 91)"

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[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

You have yet to notice it because its normal.

"I find myself increasingly shocked at the unthinking and automatic rubbishing of men which is now so part of our culture that it is hardly even noticed... I was in a class of nine and 10-year-olds, girls and boys, and this young woman was telling these kids that the reason for wars was the innately violent nature of men. You could see the little girls, fat with complacency and conceit while the little boys sat there crumpled, apologising for their existence, thinking this was going to be the pattern of their lives… This kind of thing is happening in schools all over the place and no one says a thing. It has become a kind of religion that you can't criticise because then you become a traitor to the great cause, which I am not. The most stupid, ill-educated and nasty woman can rubbish the nicest, kindest and most intelligent man and no one protests. Men seem to be so cowed that they can't fight back, and it is time they did."

Doris Lessing, 2001

[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]AFormidableContenderPurple Pill Man1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

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[–]AFormidableContenderPurple Pill Man1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

I didn't say they were. I'm glad we agree.

You took my charge to the OP (that I doubt she respects men in the same fashion she was charging the previous poster for not respecting women) and made a overarching derogatory accusation that I was implying, all people must judge other people via their gender, which I was not implying, although, I would say that's technically true, and I would generally agree that one's gender is a major source of judgement when one makes a judgement on another person.

Nor can you decide they must hate all men based on their interaction with one man.

Well then I'd ask you where you're drawing the line...? 1 man? 10 men? 1000 men? Even if I hated millions of women, more women than I could ever meet in a lifetime, you couldn't deem me a woman-hater by that logic. It's silly, and immature. As I already said...you can't go around pissing on every cat of a colour you don't like and claim you respect cats.

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[–]WomenSuckMyAssanti and pro slut-4 points-3 points-2 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

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[–]WomenSuckMyAssanti and pro slut0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Title	What do Red Pill Women think of these TRP sentiments?
Author	veritas-aequitas22
Upvotes	15
Comments	361
Date	September 18, 2014 8:12 PM UTC (11 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/2gsl2k/what_do_red_pill_women_think_of_these_trp/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/what-do-red-pill-women-think-of-these-trp.284836 https://theredarchive.com/post/284836

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