Question for TRPers: How do you feel about feminism?

[deleted] · 2014-05-08T07:59:04+00:00

[permanently deleted]

SirNemesis · 2014-05-07T19:57:39+00:00

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/pop-psych/201305/two-fallacies-feminists

For those of you not in the know, the above meme is known as the "Critical Feminist Corgi". The sentiment expressed by it - if you believe in equal rights, then you're a feminist - has been routinely expressed by many others. Perhaps the most notable instance of the expression is the ever-quotable "feminism is the radical notion that women are people", but it comes in more than one flavor. The first clear issue with the view expressed here is reality. One doesn't have to look very far to find people who do not think men can be feminists. Feminist allies, maybe, but not true feminists; that label is reserved strictly for women, since it is a "woman's movement".

... A second issue with this line of reasoning is more philosophical in nature. Let's use the context of the corgi quote, but replace the specifics: if you believe in personal freedom, then you are a Republican. Here, the problems become apparent more readily. First, a belief in freedom is neither necessary or sufficient for calling oneself a Republican (unlike the previous atheist example, where a lack of belief is both necessary and sufficient). Second, the belief itself is massively underspecified. The boundary conditions on what "freedom" refers to are so vague that it makes the statement all but meaningless. The same notions can said to apply well to the feminism meme: a belief in equal rights is apparently neither necessary or sufficient, and what "equal rights" means depends on who you ask and what you ask about. Finally, and most importantly, the labels "Republican" and "Feminist" appear to represent approximate group-identifications; not a single belief or goal, let alone a number of them. The meme attempts to blur the line between a belief (like atheism) and group-identification (some atheist movement; perhaps the Atheism+ people, who routinely try to blur such lines).

T-rexTea · 2014-05-07T15:34:03+00:00

Pulled from dictionary.com. Doesn't get any more clearcut than this:

1. the doctrine advocating social, political, and all other rights of women equal to those of men.

Women form different social hierarchies than men, women have a different process of sexual selection from men, women are physiologically/neuroanatomically different from men. Men and women are not equal. In what kind of pipe-dream do you declare two very separate entities equal? What species in the animal kingdom even comes close to this fabled 'equality'? It's naively idealistic to consider women and men equals. And so, if we are not in fact equals, why should there be any social and political equality?

As a society, I believe we should recognize these differences and work from there.

2. ( sometimes initial capital letter ) an organized movement for the attainment of such rights for women.

No, the movement is pathological even if parts of definition 1 are justifiable.

GaiusScaevolus · 2014-05-07T19:27:18+00:00

the advocacy of women's rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men.

Kind of a white washed definition, but I'll go with it. No. I don't. The reason being that in the U.S. there no longer exists any political or economic inequality and women actually have a strong social advantage. So feminism argues passionately about a non issue at best, at worst its an oppressive ideology. Now if feminists were fighting the oppression of women in 3rd world countries, rather than screeching about how looking at her self-exposed breasts is rape culture, or demanding that men find a 400lb woman in a thong attractive, I'd be more sympathetic, but even that ignores the plight of all third world peoples.

In short, feminists like to say they're about 'equality' but upon any inspection they're usually about supremacy and male suppression.

SlippyToadsWildRide · 2014-05-07T15:33:06+00:00

For the lazy, the Google definition is:

the advocacy of women's rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men.

drok007 · 2014-05-07T14:44:01+00:00

If feminism was based on the definition, most people would be feminists. The problem is its not.

edit: Actually, one more thing: I think you need to examine the definition of equality as well.

yasee · 2014-05-07T20:08:55+00:00

I believe in equal rights but not equal outcomes.

Feminism today however goes well beyond rights and pushes an end goal of absolute equality, in gender roles and in the workplace. Feminism wishes to negate the fact that women are primarily responsible for reproduction and care of the young (functionally if not in terms of disposition as well), and it often shames women for the choices they make (voluntarily being a stay at home mom and/or supporting your husband). Feminism has the mentality that men and women are essentially the same except for different reproductive organs and social constructs, which is not supported by science and there's even some evidence to the contrary. This ideology has the destructive effect of causing women to abandon their own femininity, to neither gender's benefit.

Since the 1970's women in the US have lost ground in terms of happiness and life satisfaction, both relative to men and in absolute terms. This is regarded as a paradox by some, since feminism should have improved the lives of most women since that time. However it's not the case because if you follow the feminist frame and become career dedicated you sacrifice family, and if you sacrifice career for family you feel you've missed out as well due to societal shaming/pressure via your social circle and beyond.

A career is not empowering, ultimately it is a means to an end, to provide. Working is not life, what you do when you're not at work is life. Feminism perpetuates this lie, it feeds women's materialism and may even nurture the development of narcissism, and therefore desire to work instead of support a family.

Velourium53 · 2014-05-07T20:21:16+00:00

OP, this is not an optimal way to generate a fruitful debate.

You disregard that the feminism movement has moved past a general concept of equality and has been coopted by people with an agenda that may or may not serve the long term interests and goals of those who agree with the original concept. There is a reason why people talk about waves of the feminism movement.

To start a debate, you should clearly define your question so that the participants are not left to waste time clarifying what concepts are included in the core topic.

Now, they'll be arguing about separate principles that have been subsumed by the larger modern feminism movement.

IIHotelYorba · 2014-05-08T03:19:37+00:00

I support equal rights for men and women. Of course, the dictionary definition stating that this is the case or mostly the case for feminism is an inaccurate and politicized farce. The best (and kindest) description you could give feminism would be along the lines of, "efforts to give men and women equal STATUS."

Feminists have historically fought for laws that make things easier for women and harder for men. Remember, LAWS ARE RIGHTS. What this means is feminism as a whole, not just fringe groups, have historically proven they are against equal RIGHTS. They want OUTCOMES that feel equal according to their standards.

Vodkas21 · 2014-05-07T15:52:43+00:00

My definition of feminism based on what they do is that it's a very successful ideology that grants women special privileges and sells them the lie that the are oppressed, all under the guise of equality.

I do not support feminism or the google definition, you are never going to get equality from looking at an issue from one point of view, they don't even define what equality is which allows them to shift the goalposts. I do support equal rights for men and women but not how feminist perceive it, everyone should be punished equally for the same crime, men should have just as much rights as women in family courts, there shouldn't be discrimination when applying for things like school and jobs, but besides that let the best person win.

Perspective133 · 2014-05-07T17:40:16+00:00

I don't really consider myself a "TRP'er"... I'm not really anything, in my opinion TRP and TBP both have some valid points here and there.

That being said, feminism was once a positive force in the advancement of individual liberty and opportunity for women... however, for all intents and purposes nowadays, feminism is really just the MRA movement's angry female counter-part.

Feminist claim to be about equality for men as well, but I have never seen a single feminist pay anything but lip service to men's issues at best.

It's my opinion that it's better to be a humanist than either a feminist or an MRA.

trudatness · 2014-05-08T03:30:03+00:00

Feminism used to be about females getting rights to equal opportunity.

Today it's all about removing the rights of men, particularly when it comes to accusations against them made by females.

The contemporary feminist believes that the mere accusation against a man made by a woman is cause for immediate consequence. The man is guilty until he can prove his innocence.

The man can be kicked out of his home, estranged from his children, his assets seized, jailed, expelled from school, etc... all on the basis that accusations against him could be true - in some cases based on the remote chance of being true.

Removing the rights of men based on the remote possibility of female endangerment seems to be a pretty common theme in feminists causes. The method of which they codify their narratives into law is to propagandize negative social stigmas against men (all men are rapists for example).

myfriendscantknow · 2014-05-07T22:36:20+00:00

Feminism

the advocacy of women's rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men.

Egalitarianism

a belief in human equality especially with respect to social, political, and economic affairs

a social philosophy advocating the removal of inequalities among people

We already have an ideology that takes into account all the things feminism claims to be 'champions' of. The only difference being that it derives its name from ONE sex. That flies in the face of the very idea of equality.

How can feminist expect to be taken seriously when they take the idea of equality and redefine it, deriving the name from only half the population?

robesta · 2014-05-08T01:01:22+00:00

I support equal rights if there are equal responsibilities.

Mandatory selective service registration is nowhere in the modern day feminists agenda.

duckducklandwhale · 2014-05-08T11:20:43+00:00

Feminism in theory sounds wonderful and Id support a women's right to vote, equal pay for equal skills, and all that good jazz that is totally normalized and anyone would. In fact, that's pretty much all you get taught in school about feminism so if you come out into the real world like me having a pretty narrow view on the agendas of feminism in the real world, youre totally fine. I could ask anybody in the real world the same "general questions" and based on society today and our platitudes of course they'll believe that women should have the right to vote...

but then you come on a reddit/tumblr and see these so-called 'not-a-true-feminist' feminist and see how extreme, intolerant, and intransigent they are that it turns me off. Seeing them leak into the real world too and shutting down civil academic discourse like they did in Canada is also a turn off. Accosting Youtubers, Authors, or TV Shows to basically censor/punish them from their artistic rights or personal opinions is a turnoff. The way that they can only see women as victims and nothing else is turnoff. People like to say it is a small faction, I dont know if it's true or not, but it was significant enough for me to go further away from somewhat of customary acceptance and compassion to their views to skepticism and a less dismissive attitude towards the opposing side of their views. If not, outright antagonize them by promoting the other end.

648262 · 2014-05-10T11:48:00+00:00

I agree that equal rights is a good thing. If that is it, great.

I think a lot of the discussions is what a "right" means.

Velourium53 · 2014-05-07T14:57:44+00:00

No, I don't support feminism in any of its incarnations. I think female suffrage was a mistake and an overall net loss for society.

cipahs · 2014-05-08T01:59:25+00:00

If feminism wanted equality they'd simply fight to remove gender from the law, and simply label everyone as a citizen or non-citizen.

They don't so obviously they want more than equality.

Bakerofpie · 2014-05-09T01:50:10+00:00

If feminism were really all about equal rights for men and women the movement would've died out quite some time ago in the US.

cipahs · 2014-05-14T09:02:16+00:00

Does having a feminist mindset as a guy get me laid with hot chicks, no, then fuck it.

Title	Question for TRPers: How do you feel about feminism?
Author	Velourium53
Upvotes	11
Comments	174
Date	May 7, 2014 2:39 PM UTC (12 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/24yd14/question_for_trpers_how_do_you_feel_about_feminism/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/question-for-trpers-how-do-you-feel-about-feminism.285761 https://theredarchive.com/post/285761

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