Define "manipulation" and, when is it wrong and when is it right?

FortunateBum · 2014-03-12T13:33:22+00:00

I have noticed that this is a common criticism of the Red Pill. But I wonder, what is it? Some non-RP people say having "confidence" is a good thing....

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You asked this to get a sense of where I'm coming from, so I'll answer with a non-objective story.

One of my dearest friends had her first time with an asshole. She was a sheltered, naive, insecure freshman with a minor crush on an older student acquaintance. Eventually alcohol was involved. The usual story. I was her shoulder to cry on when he went on to ignore her (and later ridicule her and actively try to ruin her reputation).

The lies and manipulation? All the things he said to her to make her believe he was someone she could trust, that it would be the beginning of a deeper relationship between them.

I would also add the similarities between "dread game" and the disapproval of a partner's friends (especially those of the opposite gender, but also jealousy of deep frienships and time spent on them) that RP men often exhibit, and the fear and isolation used to manipulate people in abusive relationships.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I think one of the important aspects of this discussion that wasn't brought up in this chain is that sexual strategy is A-moral. We, unfortunately, have to consider mating strategy as a means of genetic survival. No one person's success or failure is more important than any other's. Given your analogy, I could argue that the person who's clever enough to get the most money for his car without actually lying deserves it. There are extremes you can take this argument to but, shy of that, the concept is tenable: We're all trying to reproduce. Whatever we do short of force and direct lies is fair game. As the OP suggested, women do a great deal of "shoddy do-over"s just to go on a date. We don't call that manipulative because it's simply trying to look your best by exaggerating some of the qualities the other sex is looking for as signs of fertility.

For some reason we condemn men for this far more than women for a few reasons but I think it's generally unfair. Particularly because women are much more socially competent than men. Pitting a woman against a man in a social contest is going to be unfair in most cases. Men's recourse: Be more clever. I'm not condoning lying (and obviously not condoning force) but a woman who sleeps with a man BECAUSE he says he's a millionaire is getting duped but I have no sympathy for her. If her goal is to sleep with a millionaire, and she doesn't take the time to verify this information, she's an idiot. He's definitely an asshole and I would call that manipulative but it's not like the woman wasn't being "manipulative" either. Her game was obviously to sleep with a millionaire - and it sure as shit wasn't for love. Her manipulation is sex for money/status. So why is the guy more of an asshole than the gal? Because he lied to her? She was lying but in a different way, a socially acceptable - it's a woman using her much more experienced social strategy brain so it's not - manipulation.

So, again, I want to stress that manipulation isn't "GOOD" but it's not really "bad" either. It just is. It's part of the mating world. The successful manipulators pass on their genes, the unsuccessful ones dont. Who would you rather be? And does that make you a bad person?

[–]Those_Who_RemainIrrelevant Homosexual5 points6 points7 points 12 years ago (74 children) | Copy Link

[–]pillburtRed Pill Mana mana11 points12 points13 points 12 years ago (73 children) | Copy Link

We might disagree on whether or not it is the case - but what if it were?

At the end of the day, mating is a very competitive market, especially for sexy people. When you see the hottest woman in the room, and you realize what the dude with her did to get there- you realize a few things:

He is not an upstanding fellow by blue pill standards.
You will never be with her because she only selects guys who do what it takes.

Unless you break the mold and do what it takes yourself.

See the problem with all these artificially limiting "morals" that people want to give red pillers and men, is that it ignores the very basis for this reward system.

If women literally only rewarded normal nice guys who love puppies and never get in fights at clubs or deal drugs...

... well you wouldn't see so many guys climbing over themselves to do it.

[–]Those_Who_RemainIrrelevant Homosexual4 points5 points6 points 12 years ago* (21 children) | Copy Link

[–]pillburtRed Pill Mana mana8 points9 points10 points 12 years ago (20 children) | Copy Link

Quick example- the hot chick- you know, the one everybody turns to see, she strolls in with her man-meat boyfriend. What do you suppose would happen if I approached her?

Her boyfriend would be right there starting trouble. "Why are you talking to my lady?"

He'd puff out his chest, and you know, if we fought, he'd probably win.

But he would fight.

If we had a post on TRP saying "women prefer men who will fight for them," blue pillers would go nuts- that's not true, what is this archaic cave-man attitude? That's not attractive at all.

But, would she end up with a guy who doesn't do that?

Ah, see, you'd have to really really ignore reality to assume that she would.

This is a behavior that the blue pill would even call abusive. He's probably controlling too. But instead of saying "well that's an unhealthy way to treat women, (just like manipulation is), you should ask- why are women rewarding this behavior?

I mean, fuck, Shakira's boyfriend is a controlling asshole according to Jezebel. But if there's one thing I've learned from this, it's that a woman like Shakira, who could have literally any guy she wants, chose a controlling asshole.

So do I stand for justice? Or do I stand for what gets me success?

Yet blue pillers want to demonize men of red pill for doing what it takes to get success, instead of demonizing women for basically driving men to become sociopaths to get at them.

[–]Those_Who_RemainIrrelevant Homosexual9 points10 points11 points 12 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

Ah, see, you'd have to really really ignore reality to assume that she would.

Some women will find that attractive, but many others won't. The ´reality´ shows that many ´BP´ men are succesful. How would you explain that?

Yet blue pillers want to demonize men of red pill for doing what it takes to get success, instead of demonizing women for basically driving men to become sociopaths to get at them.

Bullshit. TRP needs to let go of the idea that 'women' are a homogenous group when it comes to attraction. They don't force you to become sociopaths in the slightest.

Some women will like the 'macho' behaviour. Some women will like the 'nice guy' behaviour. Many women will like a combination of the two depending on circumstances and context. This is a grey area that TRP loves to ignore. Things aren't as black-and-white as TRP suggests they are.

TRP isn't demonized for trying to get succes. TRP is demonized for claiming they have the only way to find succes and treating 50% of the world population as nothing more than tools to gain what they want.

[–]pillburtRed Pill Mana mana5 points6 points7 points 12 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Some women will find that attractive, but many others won't. The ´reality´ shows that many ´BP´ men are succesful. How would you explain that?

Some women aren't hot enough to demand that much. But that doesn't mean they wouldn't if they were.

TRP needs to let go of the idea that 'women' are a homogenous group when it comes to attraction.

No, there are varying levels of women. Ugly women can't demand anything, and will likely settle for a nice blue pill guy. Congrats to them all in their little ugly world.

They don't force you to become sociopaths in the slightest.

Well, yeah, if you want the best of the best you do. I read something the other day that said a big percentage of millionaires are sociopaths. What if you have to be a callous terrible red piller to be successful?

Some women will like the 'macho' behaviour. Some women will like the 'nice guy' behaviour. Many women will like a combination of the two depending on circumstances and context.

Some women don't have enough value to demand what they want.

TRP isn't demonized for trying to get succes. TRP is demonized for claiming they have the only way to find succes and treating 50% of the world population as nothing more than tools to gain what they want.

No, you see, the red pill understands completely that different values and different relative values in the market will come with different behaviors. A 5 will treat an 8 better than she'll treat a 2. That doesn't mean she's a different person now, or that the red pill stopped applying, it means that different factors are at play, but can still be accounted for.

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[–]pillburt3 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Yes, I think BP men can be as successful, but there are some factors to consider:

Local market. Is there higher or lower demand for women? Some places have lower rates of women, and even the hottest guys have to compete for the scraps. Some markets are overwhelmed by women- I once visited a college that had a lot of liberal arts and one business program- so girls out numbered guys 8 to 1, those guys would get laid without thinking.
Chance or circumstance: Guy going to the same school, church, or program with a woman might have way more success than any other guy with similar skills and looks would at a bar.

These are people succeeding in spite of their skillset, not because of it. That doesn't change the rules, it just shows that some places and circumstances are better fit for guys who aren't honing their skills, and some places demand that you do.

[–]nicethingyoucanthaveRed Pill Male2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

why are women rewarding this behavior?

That's the issue that blue pillers resolutely refuse to address.

For me, it's completely amoral. I'm not "slut shaming" or criticizing women in any way. Their preferences are their own business and I wont judge them or try to change them.

...but I will try to meet whatever standard they set. And I know that certain behaviors are more likely to be attractive to women.

The question of "why" is interesting to me. I enjoy conversations about it. But the "why" isn't necessarily important. The fact is, you get more of the behavior your reward. If most women liked math majors, TRP would be filled with posts explaining calculus.

The big problem with blue pillers is that they don't believe bell curves exist. They deny that certain behaviors are attractive to the majority of women. And because other behaviors are indeed attractive but only to a tiny, tiny minority of women, they deny that those behaviors are unattractive to the majority.

So as a result, they will tell some poor fuckhead of a guy to just keep doing what he's doing, because somewhere out there is the 1 in a billion woman who is totally into that. Nevermind that he will never meet that woman (and if he does, he will not have the experience to get her). "Just be yourself!" is all they say.

And of course, the other problem with blue pillers is the difference between what people say with the rational, conscious portion of their brain, and what they do with the base animal instinct portion. Blue pillers give advice that is rational, sensible, and ineffective.

[–]pillburtRed Pill Mana mana0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

The big problem with blue pillers is that they don't believe bell curves exist. They deny that certain behaviors are attractive to the majority of women. And because other behaviors are indeed attractive but only to a tiny, tiny minority of women, they deny that those behaviors are unattractive to the majority.

Not only that, but either by coincidence, or by design, these falsities, half truths, or misunderstandings, when repeated, help erect a culture which inflates women's sexual market value.

People call Rollo Tomassi and many red pillers conspiracy theorists when they talk about the feminine imperative, but there it is. Blue pillers outright deny reality on these topics, and it isn't just a harmless action, it actually inflates the market when men don't know how to attract women. It has real world effects that benefit women.

I can't believe it's not a developed trait for women.

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When I was with my ex as a teen, we were attacked by a group of guys. 8 of them, because we dared walk near the bowling alley where they were hanging out. My ex and I got into a huge brawl, and we escaped mainly unscathed (my shirt had been torn off and his glasses broke, but no bruises or broken bones) from the ordeal. It was like he attracted that sort of shit... Everywhere we'd go, people would come up to us and they'd start shit with him and we'd get out of it with varying degrees of violence. And he never actually did anything wrong to earn it, as much as it pains me to acknowledge. He would be laughing with me and we'd be talking about video games and suddenly our table at Wendy's is surrounded by people looking to start shit. But I certainly never blamed my ex when someone kicked the crap out of him, because it was rarely a fair fight. It would start that way... One dude in the fight versus my ex, and then others would jump in when he started looking like he was winning. Can't blame a guy when he's losing a 2 or 3 on one.

When I started dating my now-husband, I was paranoid every time a group of teenagers were around. I'd think, "Oh shit, dude, we can't eat here. They're just gonna start shit with us and we're gonna have to deal with it and I hate this." He was totally confused. Why the fuck would anyone fight us when we were just sitting down eating?

Better than knowing that my ex could protect me in a fight was knowing that my current man didn't have to. We don't get attacked. We don't get into fights. We live our lives and nothing bad happens when we're out. I don't know what it was about my ex but people just wanted to punch him in the face for existing.

[–]alphabetmodamused modstery1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

I don't know what it was about my ex but people just wanted to punch him in the face for existing.

Haha, I know what you mean I have a buddy that's like that. Some days we can't go into a fucking convienence store without someone starting shit for seemingly no apparent reason. The thing is, no matter who he's with, and everyone is acting, dressing very similarly to him, he's the only one that attracts this sort of behavior.

I think this is where the whole "frame" argument from TRP is useful. I started to watch his body language and just little tiny things that he does and have concluded that he just doesn't carry himself very well at all. Hunched shoulders, kinda looks like he has a permanent sneer on his face when really that's just how his face rests, etc.. I bet your husband probably carries himself in a way that's vastly different from how your ex did.

[–]WormTickle2 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Oh my goodness, yes. If you're a fan of Harry Potter, it was like I was dating teenage Severus Snape in the scene where James and the Marauders flip Snape upside down... But it was everywhere we went on a nearly daily basis. The sneering and the general foulness... Including the OBVIOUSLY shabby clothes that come from being a kid in a poor home, with the added bonus that he'd get hand-me-downs from his older brother who weighed 150+lbs more than he did. Even when his dad finally got a job and he got his own clothes and they were the same as everyone else's, he didn't look comfortable in his skin. He hated the clothes that were too huge, but they were his armor.

He scowled a lot (depression, issues with his home life) and had what on women is called the Resting Bitch Face. On a man, it comes across as hostile and threatening and a challenge, instead of as the woman with the same expression merely being an Ice Queen. He wasn't confident, he was COCKY. He was the big fish in a small pond... king of the nerd social group because he was sarcastic and witty and had a girlfriend, and none of the other guys were getting any, and he carried that big fish in a small pond mentality with him. For the other nerds reading, he felt like he was Raistlin Majere. Always identified with the necromancers and evil characters. In an almost pathological way. Everyone who's been in a large enough group of nerds for any length of time knows the type.

In hindsight, it could have been some weird sort of vibe he gave off that I didn't belong with him. He was kind of abusive at the end, and it's like someone said in the wake of Columbine when I was a kid that I never forgot... "Maybe they weren't sociopaths because they were shunned and bullied. Maybe they were shunned and bullied because they were sociopaths." Even before he started hurting me it's possible some people saw something fundamentally wrong with him and wanted to "correct" it.

By contrast, my husband is easy going, smiles a lot, and doesn't draw attention to himself without a damn good reason.

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A lot of red pillers that I read about have girlfriends who seem to need constant "gaming" and exhausting "frame maintenance" to keep them around, and the men themselves don't trust the women and live in paranoia of her hopping on someone else's dick. Even if the girl is hot, that kind of relationship definitely isn't worth the struggle.

Other people I read about on TRP seem to think that PUA is magic and are obsessed with getting hot girls who are simply not into them. Then when they fail, they get angry and type bizarre field report rants on the internet. That is definitely a struggle, but ultimately a futile and ridiculous one that isn't worth it.

The only kind of struggle that I could possibly see as being worth it is if you undergo a vast self-improvement or willing change in your person for the sake of a genuinely awesome partner. But I fail to see how adopting the belief that women are lesser human beings who should be controlled by men is an improvement. Any woman who will actually tolerate being treated like that either wants something out of you (DAE divorce rape?) or has psychological issues that should be a cause for concern.

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[–]GODZILLAFLAMETHROWER0 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Being the biggest piece of shit in the industry, while an achievement, is dubious. And yeah, buying this kind of car to show off and demonstrate your status IS superficial. Finally, climbing mountain just isn't how I would spend my free time, but to each their own.

As for the getting in shape: if you call this being in shape. This is far from healthy.

Actually I could extrapolate a trend here. While staying in shape is healthy, going to this kind of extreme is the result of a distorded mindset. This is somewhat akin to TRP: trying to improve yourself is healthy, but being such an extremist and hating on the world for your failure will lead you nowhere. As I said, not everything is worth a struggle, and what you actually choose may actually be a fucked up choice that will lead only to bitterness.

[–]pillburt2 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]GODZILLAFLAMETHROWER0 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

How would that be accidentally agreeing with a Red Piller? I knew pretty well what were the achievement from the beginning. I'm serious when I say that I would not give a shit if you said that it was what happened to you yesterday or in recent years and what you were proud of.

This is a system of values. I have completely different values. My point is that not every system is the same. I won't say mine is superior, that would be meaningless. My whole point is that some system of value just do not work for the human having them. They are actually nocive in the long term (for example, taking products to achieve "being swole"). Obviously, if TRP are bitter and narcissistic, and start berating women for a supposed "pressure to become a sociopath in order to get laid", then I guess the problem is with their value system, not with what they perceive as society.

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[–]nicethingyoucanthaveRed Pill Male1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

There is a male for every female

What you're describing here is called assortive mating.

Experiments along these lines work like this: there are an equal number of males and females in a room, and they each have a number on their head from 1-10 but they don't know what number they have on their head. When the game begins, the two groups mingle, and are allowed to pair off (by taking the hand of a partner). The object of the game is to pair off with the highest number you can.

The results show that 10's match with 10's, and 9's match with 9's and so on. Even if the numbers are distributed unevenly, with a lot of female 10's and no male 10's for example, the pairing is still assortive - or as you put it: "there is a male for every female"

The problem with extrapolating from this principle of assortive mating to the real world sexual market is two-fold. First, participation rates are not uniform. More women are "off the market" for various reasons (not the lest of which is that they are more likely to be faithful to a spouse or boyfriend, studies show). So, there are physically more men in the room than women. The lower-quality men necessarily lose out.

Secondly, men and women judge success in different ways. We aren't exactly playing the same game. A lot of women are more happy to be sharing a very high value male than to have exclusive access to a low-value male. Furthermore, in the assortive mating experiments, there was only one pairing per round.

[–]KaliYugazNO MODS, NO MASTERS-1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]fiat_lux_Red Pillar5 points6 points7 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

How do you know what that guy did to be with that (hot) woman? This is a serious question, I want to know how you can tell he 'got' that woman just by seeing him with her.

That's something I've wondered myself, and I got some insight by being on the receiving end of such criticism.

I have been "that guy, the douchebag".

I've even gotten pissy attitude from a sibling. He said that my social interaction with our friends felt too scripted. He said this because I've tried helping him/coaching him on being more social when he asked. He also already has some understanding of how I am. That being said, most of the people who know our family confide in other family members that my brother is socially awkward and seems unfriendly and unapproachable, while I am a pleasure to be around. This has actually been a serious concern, as many of us had this wrong impression that he's autistic. Clearly to most people, I'm not the one with the problem. In general, he gets pissed off that I seem to hog attention. (It's not really my intent. My intent is just to get people talking/communicating with each other instead of just sitting around quietly being awkward.) It makes even more sense when I realize later which girls he is interested in.

Another example: This one time, a few friends and I were shopping for party food. Some wise guy had marked out the letter "E" on almost the entire small shelf of FAGE dairy products. One of my friends laughed about it, and it caught the attention of the rest. The responses were an IRL internal monologue captioning meme:

"Haha."

"Wow."

"So immature."

"Much homo," I added.

Everyone was floored and having a gay old time over the dumb dairy pun, including a bisexual guy. But one of the other guys had a confrontational attitude throughout the night with me. Made off-handed/sarcastic remarks about me being a homophobe. It had much more to do with his girlfriend and his insecurities than it had to do with his outrage over my supposed homophobia. This is the guy that, in college, refused to go to parties with us that were too gay for him. Never volunteered for AIDS walk event with us because he didn't feel obligated as he wasn't gay.

Neither of these examples happened at a club among the stereotypical "douchebag". I was the douchebag. I honestly strive to be pleasant/polite and considerate in person. I don't aim to be a douchebag in person, so it's a bit amusing to have unintentionally been that guy. A big part of it may be that I sometimes step over a few toes unapologetically. That can be seen as douchey by certain people in certain situations. Reactions may vary. For pillburt, perhaps his douchebag threshold is much higher. For my brother and some others I know, theirs are very low.

[–][deleted] 3 points3 points3 points 12 years ago | Copy Link

[–]fiat_lux_Red Pillar2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

complete with the stereotypical Canadian accent.

You and your sister sound even more Canadian than my brother. He considers it a matter of pride and honour to spell things the British way. Not even he uses the "yoghurt" spelling (with an "h"), though he probably would if he was aware. I'm pretty sure they'd get along.

It's a good thing for him that he's considerably smarter than me, taller, and picks up skills in no time flat (took him a month to learn to play the piano at a level it took me a year to learn). He's also a humble young multimillionaire. Seriously the kind of guy you'd find as a protagonist of a nerdy romance novel where the heroine "discovers" this quiet nerd who turns out to be quite a catch. I could be one of the worst wingmen in the world and still have an easy time helping him, so thankfully I don't need to worry about him.

On that note, do you believe anything similiar? Do you think it's impossible for an attractive woman to be with a non-asshole man? I've read your posts on this sub and can't imagine you do. I don't know pillburt situation. I don't think it's impossible. However, if I were to try and see things the rp way (as I have been trying for a while now), a lot of it does make sense from my own experience. I can see why many need to believe that assholes tend to get their way.

It's not specifically about "being an asshole", but being able exert our own presence unapologetically.

I was a walking Canadian stereotype, as reddit would see us. I'd apologize for the most trivial things. Someone accidentally steps on my foot? "Sorry, I don't know what my foot was doing there!" However, I've had mentors/superiors tell me to cut that shit off if I'm going to lead teams as they expect me to. I've brooded on this and think they are right. When I always worried about crossing other people's boundaries, I either never got anywhere or lost my own boundaries/presence, eventually becoming intangible and invisible.

I was also accustomed to using mitigated speech; worried about making "absolutist" statements. This worked in high school, as I was fine with being a popular nerd. This was also fine in college as most colleges/universities are egalitarian environments. Professors generally don't rely on authority or emotion. It works out for them, but students are encouraged to question them, in which case they primarily rely on logic to convince and teach students. Students themselves also feel equal and live amongst intellectual peers. Their future superiors and subordinates would have went to different colleges. Thus, the academic experience doesn't apply to my professional experience where there are multiple hierarchies (technical, financial, and managerial just to name a few). People will pull rank on me as I have with others. Employers or investors pick us for our expertise. In those fields of our expertise, we are expected to lead, otherwise they wouldn't have chosen us over some other employee/investment opportunity. Mitigated speech is seen as weakness/insecurity more often than humbleness.

A person who is unapologetic and unmitigated can seem like an asshole to many people. Implied is a lack of consideration. It's not always true. I do consider other people. I "think" and calculate everything, not even by conscious choice. Numbers like estimated height, weight, net worth, and even qualitative descriptions hover above people's heads for me, and it's not something I can help. However, I choose to not express that for practical reasons. For example, sometimes it's better for people to learn to think for themselves and to defend themselves, instead of relying on me to always think and speak on their behalf.

To sum it up, like you mentioned in your previous paragraph, it's a matter of degree and semantics. We could say, "Everyone needs a sprinkling of asshole in them." Or we could put it more positively and say they need to be more assertive, careless, and, if I do dare so put it, a bit inconsiderate as well. Either way, I do think a man who worries and acts too much on behalf of others and not enough on behalf of himself is less likely to be successful in general, not just with women.

…

To dig a bit deeper on this topic: In their more honest moments, a lot of rpers discussed their weaknesses with regards to romance. The problems discussed above are a serious matter to some of them.

More than once I'd read a thread about a guy declaring how he's in trouble because he's "backsliding into beta mode." It's a natural state for a lot of these guys. A lot of rpers admit to having written very sappy songs and poems for their love interests and got burned. Seriously socially awkward people whom I cringe with, reading their stories. Some of them have a hard time even giving compliments without putting themselves down or giving a weak/shaky aura. They need to reframe their thoughts just to stop sounding or looking weak through their sweat, blushing, choice of words, intonation, inflections, stance, verbal tics, eye contact, etc. I even offer suggestions to some trp folk here: link

It's lame, but it's a tactic that a lot of people use, because they are not naturally inconsiderate enough.

I see it as similar to the shit-talking session some guys give each other before a major competition. My teammates and I to a fellow collegiate boxer before the final round, "You're last year's national champ." / "You've worked harder than that chump over there." / "He's nothing. A maggot." / "Go murder him!" A lot of pep talk to get people into the right, confident mindset.

"If you even dream of beating me, you'd better wake up and apologize." ~Muhammad Ali

Some bpers think it's possible to logically talk someone into becoming more confident. That's just not the case for a lot of people. They rely on mental tricks they play on themselves.

[–]pillburtRed Pill Mana mana1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

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Well yes I will admit that if I found out my SO was "gaming" "dreading" or otherwise manipulating me in any of the number of ways I've seen advised in TRP I wouldn't feel valued or respected as an intelligent equal in the relationship. I don't think that's a projection, I think that's the fact of the matter.

I'll never say that most women don't enjoy feeling "safe" and taken care of, like they have someone they can turn to for answers when they want or need them. Anyone would prefer to feel that way in a relationship. But the disrespect comes in when men start manipulating and "gaming" women in order to do that. As if you can't be an alpha male figure, or be in control of your life and relationship, without being emotionally degrading to half of the population.

Or maybe TRP can't, but that doesn't mean that it isn't possible for other men.

[–]pillburtRed Pill Mana mana1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

without being emotionally degrading to half of the population.

Yeah but you see, this is the part where we disagree. You're calling a bunch of this stuff degrading.. but the thing is- in a man's mind, he needs to understand the frame of mind to react to certain situations. When he's "treating you like a child" he's not literally thinking about you in 10 year old's panties. He's thinking, when she flips her shit and starts yelling, do I respond to her outbursts and try to defend myself?

"you did this, you did that!" "No, this is what I did, you're not listening.."

Man that argument won't go anywhere.

Or does he think to himself, this argument is stemming from an emotional place, and she's not upset about the actual object of this argument. She's upset because of how it made her feel. Don't argue the particulars here, it won't help. Address her feelings instead.

I mean, you might not like that we call it like talking to a child, but this tired emotional argument is so common, it's a cliche and exists in literally every single chick flick ever made. It exists. And guys are dumbfounded by it- there are standup comics that talk about it all day. "Well, I just shut up when my wife yells at me.. better to do that then end up on the couch.."

Well, here's some guys that say: she's not coming from your frame of mind. When guys argue about something, it's about that object. When women argue about something, it's often about the feelings beneath it. She's not upset that you did something that you think is totally benign, she's upset because you don't seem to notice how it made her feel, and her feelings need to be dealt with or this argument will devolve into more yelling.

It's not degrading in practice, it's only degrading because you don't like how men talk to eachother about dealing with these things. It's the proverbial man behind the curtain so to speak.

But in practice, women love guys who embrace it. They seem to just get it.

Women just prefer guys who appear to just get it. And if you never saw the red pill, you'd assume we were those guys. But the secret's out. All guys talk with each other about dealing with women.

[–]mahtahild1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

That's makes wonderful sense. I suppose my hang up is on the fact that it needs to be viewed as "treating women like children" and saying that women are emotionally stunted because "they don't mature emotionally past the age of ten" instead of just ackowledging that women want to have a conversation about the way you act towards her makes her feel and men want to have a conversation about why they acted that way. Neither is wrong, neither is stupid.

Women might say, "yes I can see why logically you think it's fine to say ___, but can't you see how that can be hurtful to me?" Why is that something that needs to be regarded in a demeaning way? Why does that need to be called being emotionally stunted and childish, and mocked? Why is the way our brains work wrong and stupid, simply because it's not the way your brain works?

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Some people use whatever definition is convenient at the time to get what they want. Other people struggle to adhere to consistency despite the sacrifices.

Manipulation doesn't have to be on a continuum, it can be defined reasonably clearly. But you have to stop thinking of it a wrong or bad first. If one defines manipulation as "wrong" before anything else(which most people do), one tends to seek further defining it in a way that must continue to be "wrong". Anything else makes them uncomfortable.

My example illustrates a situation in which the presumption of manipulation being "wrong" is challenged. Instead it feels acceptable. I could just as easily suggest one involving children or the mentally challenged or the mentally deteriorated elderly to point out how beneficial and "right" manipulation might be. The intellectually resilient will acknowledge the uncomfortableness and seek resolution in reason, adapting as needed. The weak will seek rationalizations that re-affirm existing positions or will seek to avoid the challenge altogether.

[–]mikado120 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Title	Define "manipulation" and, when is it wrong and when is it right?
Author	FortunateBum
Upvotes	7
Comments	102
Date	March 12, 2014 1:33 PM UTC (12 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/20875e/define_manipulation_and_when_is_it_wrong_and_when/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/define-manipulation-and-when-is-it-wrong-and-when.286087 https://theredarchive.com/post/286087

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