Even though women seemingly lose out- are patriarchal marriages the only marriages that can seemingly last and provide contentment?

flamingoinghome · 2020-02-20T10:03:24+00:00

Have you ever met people living in a patriarchal marriage? Men or women? I have.

There's a reason children of immigrants in the US run kicking and screaming from that shit. Men and women both.

I don't know why you seem to think men are on average happier or more productive married to a woman they didn't necessarily have full say in choosing, and can't leave. (although in traditional Islam men can and do divorce, and traditional Catholics who do not believe in divorce do not necessarily "stay together")

If you are frightened of losing all your money in a divorce, but still want to marry, screen for financial compatibility and get a prenup. It's not that hard. If you are afraid of being cheated on, choose a woman with a history of prior relationships wherein she did not cheat.

This idea that a man being handsome enough will bind a woman to him for life is absurd (Colin Firth got cheated on!), but I will say congrats to you for actually picking examples a woman would find attractive.

wtknight · 2020-02-20T14:02:18+00:00

Patriarchical marriages aren’t particularly happy ones. The fact that single women are the happiest women shows that men generally do a poor job maintaining a marriage and ensuring that their wives are happy.

Preaddly · 2020-02-20T07:01:42+00:00

This is all based on the assumption that civilization will collapse unless men have a woman to marry. The patriarchy will collapse, but what replaces it won't necessarily be matriarchy or worse than what we have now. It'll definitely be better for women.

As for your overall question, no. There's no way to make the patriarchal ideal attractive to women. We want the freedom to live irrespective of men's desires.

Orange_Paisley · 2020-02-20T09:52:59+00:00

My mom and stepdad have been together since 1975 and my mother is definitely the boss. She owns the business, she owns the house, he refers to her on just about every decision. They seem pretty content to me. I don’t want to be the boss but I’ll be damned if I marry into a marriage with a man who thinks he is the boss either. We’re partners or GTFO.

Pola_Lita · 2020-02-20T07:17:28+00:00

Give women a realistic choice without repercussions or punishments and see whether they donate their lives "to the team" or go somewhere else as fast as they can. I'm thinking they'll go for escape more often than not.

Taking personal power from someone because of their gender isn't a good way to a happy situation.

NarniaFox · 2020-02-20T07:25:40+00:00

Compare a level of quality of life in deeply patriarchal, religious countries and in secular countries, where human rights are respected and valued. Where would you prefer to live?

I wouldn't be happy with an older husband, who was chosen by my father and who I can't divorce, even if he was "a 10". I can't find fulfilment only as a wife and mother, it's depressing. I want to have control over my own life and be seen as a person, not as a womb.

intersIn · 2020-02-20T08:11:59+00:00

Im not trying to put moral judgements on this nor trying to opress women.I think that we need genetic engineering to recreate male tens enmasse and then have women be forced to not divorce rape,cheat and so on by restrictive laws....

patriarchy creates strong societies and general welfare of all so women should take one for the team?

Just to be clear - your are not trying to opress women. Because this feels a lot like oppression and no different than the world has been and still is, for women in certain countries, for 1000 of years. Women have been taking one for the team for a long time. Instead of reverting back to the old ways, where women take one for the team, men catch up and stop waiting for women to readjust their expectations to fit their needs.

LillthOfBabylon · 2020-02-20T12:02:25+00:00

Why is there a belief that people werent trapped in marriages? There was no contentment in past marriages.

PapaPinyun · 2020-02-20T17:24:21+00:00

Hindu men have unrestricted freedom, if you saw the faces of their wives as they explain you would probably cry.

2020-02-20T08:53:49+00:00

I think one issue we need to look at is the idea of "missing out", most people think they've missed out on something they never would have had and media is exacerbating it. Few people look at what could've gone wrong and forget the path they're on would've been a missed opportunity had they not taken it.

2020-02-20T13:05:46+00:00

You can’t guarantee someone’s loyalty no matter how attractive you are, men or women.

Financially oppressing a partner and physically intimidating them doesn’t even work.

People have to be nice to one another and cut their losses when it’s over and have the means to leave. Very few relationships last forever. People change.

It’s unrealistic to attempt to control this reality of human nature.

PrincepsOmni · 2020-02-20T07:36:44+00:00

but how do women feel in such a scenario?

How do women feel about men wanting sex, loyalty and their wish to be loved? No healthy, normal thinking human being would look down on this. If a woman loves a man it is shown through her actions - which will include sex, loyalty and acts of affection and love.

If a woman doesn't have these things why would she be with a man? Unless she's forced to marry (which is not common even in many patriarchal cultures - the concept of consent can be seen in parts of the bible from the Bronze Ages) she's free to pick a man she thinks is worthy of her love, loyalty and affection.

would it only make them happy if the man were physichally and financially attractive?

If a woman finds a man attractive and worthy of her love she'll be happy to devote herself to him. This often means she finds him physically and financially attractive but is not only limited to those things.

if thats the case then the men lose out because how can you be happy if your wife isnt happy?

This only applies if women are forced to marry. There is a MASSIVE difference between setting up people (arranged) and encouraging marriage and forcing marriage upon people.

And it would be up to men in any case to be the best version of himself so he is a man that is worthy of love and affection anyway. A man cannot complain he's not getting affection and love when he's letting himself go - just as how women cannot complain a man doesn't find them attractive when they aren't making any efforts themselves.

but otoh the current neocon and progressive forms of marriage result in general divorce,insecurity for men and no happiness

Because it doesn't teach personal responsibility, or how to carefully vet people, or encourage men or women to take ownership of themselves and their choices. Ideals without actions and effort are just empty vessels easily broken.

what would make women happy short of genetic engineering of men to be attractive if that were the case?

Women (and men) must first learn to be happy in and of themselves. It doesn't matter what they want from their relationships. They have to be their own source of happiness, even if they want to be the most traditional wife on the planet.

maybe men cnnot be haoppy in the current matriarchal set up and women cant be happy in the patriarchal setup,but that patriarchy creates strong societies and general welfare of all so women should take one for the team?

Most sane women like roads, food, low crime and electricity - and most women will prefer a stable, strong willed man in their lives they can rely on than being passed from pillar to post. This starts with the woman (or man) - they form the society.

Women are measurably less happy today in the West despite all their 'advances' - we are surprised that women are unhappy with having to bear children and work and compete with men at the same time (something not many women will be able to do easily)...the feminist Utopian dreams of a few middle class women with high education and the ability to 'have it all" simply don't apply to most women - yet society tells most women they must do this. The it acts baffled women are either choosing one or the other or simply cracking under the pressure of having to be mothers and work. And now we have become so progressive nearly no working class women can be supported by a working class man even if he works all the hours god sends. My father and grandfather could support a home and their wives had the option to be devoted to home and children or work. My generation of working class men cannot support a home so their wives HAVE to work...unless you're middle to upper management you can't take care of a family. Women actually have less choice now because far fewer men are able to support them and give them that choice. Most regular women who want or have children I know will happily spend all day with their children if they could...but most cannot.

And those who can are denigrated by the progressives in our society as brainwashed and stupid?

If chosing a life that enables more women to actually be able to find better men (by not competing with them in the workforce) and having the option to be happy outside the rat race is 'taking one for the team' then women who want that should indeed choose that.

It's quite hard for a modern, western woman to see her options though. She's raised by an education system and media that tells her from a young age her happiness is best found in traditionally masculine behaviour. If feminists were actually honest they would lay out the perks of being a housewife and mother as much as they lay out the perks of careers...and let women decide from themselves. They won't do that though because most women, especially working class women will not choose careers. The goal is distrust between men and women and societal breakdown in the name of equality - not women's choice.

maybe we need to return to a patriarchal setting but also enforce genetic engineering

If most forms of welfare were removed many young women would be far more picky about men they choose to sleep with. If legal systems didn't grant 'no fault' divorces many women would be far more careful about marriage and work harder at it.

Simply rolling back some welfare and legal 'reforms' would stimulate the natural selection that women were doing since the stone ages...picking men carefully, saving themselves for the right one, working hard on themselves and their marriages etc etc.

I think that we nedd genetic engineering tocreate male tens enmasse and then have women be forced to not divorce rape,cheat and so on by restrictive laws.

Aside from genetic engineering we have reached similar conclusions. Essentially, from the perspective of law the following is needed in most Western nations:

End divorce rape/No Fault Divorce - make divorce law 5-/50 by default then hear each case on it's own merits.
End laws making men pay for other men's children just because they have/had a relationship with the mother.
No state welfare for more than two children per woman.
State education should teach the scientific facts of female biological clocks/reducing fertility.
State education should cover the correlation between number of sexual partners and risk of divorce/lower ability to pair bond.
State education should show the data of how children have better statistical outcomes when raised by a mother and father in the same home.
Equalise the punishments for men and women for the same crimes, especially violence and child abuse and rape of minors.
Increase tax breaks and first home buyer loan terms to married couples, and especially to married couples with children.
End ALL gender based 'affirmative action'. No more jobs for women to fill gender quotas.

There's no need to install a patriarchy or matriarchy from a top down government. Simply having reality based education, handouts that subside poor choices, and fair laws will correct most of these problems.

Mad women can still be feminists, hate men and choose careers...they will just find that they aren't getting the system to back them up and will need to live with their choices the same as everyone else.

alluringjustice · 2020-02-20T11:56:17+00:00

Surveys of women have shown their happiness went off a cliff in the 70s as birth control/feminism made the single parent home a thing of the past. Living under the firm hand of a patriarchal breadwinner seems to have been a better set up for women than the current dual income, dual burden trap.

Of course, it was also economically less efficient, so doomed to succumb to the social engineering of the neoliberal leftist-corporatist monolith.

I guess men could pick up the slack at home... but fuck that. You dont get to knock down my sand castle and then have me help you build another.

AutoModerator · 2020-02-20T06:46:28+00:00

Attention!

You can post off topic/jokes/puns as a comment to this Automoderator message.
For "CMV" and "Question for X" Threads: Parent comments that aren't from the target group will be removed, along with their child replies.
If you want to agree with OP instead of challenging their view or if the question is not targeted at you, post it as an answer to this comment.
OP you can choose your own flair according to these guidelines., just press Flair under your post!

Thanks for your cooperation and enjoy the discussion!

I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.

Zippo-Cat · 2020-02-20T07:42:40+00:00

the problem is is that we don't know if women are content in these marriages

We know they're AT LEAST as happy as women who get to pick their own partners.

DangZagnut · 2020-02-20T09:49:44+00:00

Marriage is stupid because being monogamous all your life takes absolutely nothing into account when it comes to life changes.

You make a decision at 22 to get permanently married? Why? What does it benefit you?

If it was so wonderful you wouldn’t have armies of people quietly taking you aside and telling you not to do it.

Should you be punished because of some stupid idea you were pressured into or thought “was cool” at the time?

Marriage is a prison sentence.

crookedsummer2019 · 2020-02-20T11:39:25+00:00

You are painting patriarchal marriages with a very wide brush there. I’m not super traditional but I do know couples in what would be described as patriarchal marriages where the husband is the head of the family and the provider and the wife seems happy. When people share the same values around marriage and family, rather than one being forced into it, it makes for more contentment for both the couple and their children.

Your reference to women not being allowed to divorce unless he cheats is false. Even in Islam, where many couples do a marriage contract before they even get married, women can divorce for other reasons, including if he takes a another wife without her consent, if he doesn’t provide for her, if he becomes mentally ill and if he abuses her. Those are common stipulations in many marriage contracts in Muslim countries including the most strict Muslim country, Saudi Arabia.

In fact in India there is a Muslim marriage act that lists several grounds for divorce. Impotence is one of them.

You may want to check your facts on this stuff.

You’re also assuming that men would be content even if his wife feels like a trapped prisoner in their marriage. I don’t think most men would be content with that unless they are heartless, and most men aren’t.

LadiesHomeCompanion · 2020-02-20T23:09:06+00:00

it seems that these societies produce stable families and contentment

Honor killings aside, you mean?

FreakXAurora · 2020-02-21T10:06:15+00:00

They seem content because they don’t know anything different and they don’t have a say. In some cultures and countries women can’t leave the house, move, open a bank account, etc without her “owner’s” (husband/father) permission. Women in some of these cultures are abandoned for having daughters but they don’t know any different. They can’t leave.

FarWestNationalParks · 2020-02-23T00:53:08+00:00

learn some grammar mate...

thedeadpill · 2020-02-20T15:08:05+00:00

I think the hidden premise here is that you have to be married in order to be happy. Traditional marriages, depending on the tradition, work for some people and not for others.

I mean men want primarily sex and loyalty and thats it.but they also want to be loved.

If this were true, why would anyone stay married after their libido drops when they're 50? Obviously not true.

the current neocon and progressive forms of marriage result in general divorce,insecurity for men and no happiness.

I believe current marriages and the laws that structure them present a terrible value proposition for men who have anything to lose. You get to lose half your stuff on a whim? Great. In some places, alimony is for life, and people shy away from that. Yeah, I'm sure there are loyal women out there, but you can't really know what's in the box until you buy it. More and more, it looks like it's just kind of a bad deal. You wouldn't buy a car that had a 50% failure rate in 5 years, and marriages (after divorce and everything else) are far more expensive than cars.

I think the vast majority of men and women want to be loved, and have a loyal companion and partner. We're social animals, of course we want that.

I think the real answer is some post-marriage paradigm. Marriage doesn't serve anyone anymore. Maybe we just get to live together and fuck and whatever, but, at the end of the day, we don't really owe each other anything and we can expect nothing from the people we call 'partner'.

1amtheSpoon · 2020-02-20T17:20:17+00:00

I think you will not get anywhere in a matriarchal society. It's only a question of time until a more patriarchy society takes over. A matriarchal society is a weak society. The weakness leaves it vulnerable.

That said, I'm older and know many women who participated in "patriarchal" marriages. None of them complain and all were content. Many are widows now and miss the safety and security aspect.

I think the media has done a good job of portraying all traditional marriages as "oppressive" to women. That doesn't mean it was true.

Title	Even though women seemingly lose out- are patriarchal marriages the only marriages that can seemingly last and provide contentment?
Author	unica6
Upvotes	4
Comments	113
Date	February 20, 2020 6:46 AM UTC (6 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/f6p5kc/even_though_women_seemingly_lose_out_are/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/even-though-women-seemingly-lose-out-are.338668 https://theredarchive.com/post/338668

Comments