Is the Redpill completely wrong?

xvszero · 2023-02-16T10:10:48+00:00

how else can the average guy get a woman interested in him

Find an average woman.

what makes you think that women won’t leave for a guy they deem better than their current bf?

Some will, some won't, just like some men will leave for a girl with bigger boobs or whatever, some won't. That's not hypergamy.

But the actual answer is: love. People do actually love each other. Sometimes.

Any guy who has partaken in the dating game and failed, has seen the “Bad Boy” get the girl

No, that wasn't my experience. I hung out with cool dudes and most of them got girls.

Because it’s clear the “Bad Boy” succeeds in dating

No it isn't. I don't know any of those guys who have had successful longterm relationships. Most every cool girl I've known in my life is married to a pretty cool dude now.

Meat_Vegetable · 2023-02-16T04:37:24+00:00

Old man Ex-redpill here

Game - A lot of this just comes down to not being insecure in yourself, "picking up" women isn't the difficult part, it's maintaining that relationship if that is what you want.

Hypergamy - The women who do this are not good people, they only want status and nothing more, that could be cultural, a response to how they grew up, etc. There is a lot of reasons this can happen, however I wouldn't worry too much about it honestly. So long as you aren't a pile of shit who never wants to improve ever then you're fine.

Bad Boy Archetype - This is more because it makes you appear to have confidence, it's also not the healthiest trope. Also you could be with a woman who wants you to protect her for various reason when what she probably needs is therapy.

baiser_vole · 2023-02-16T06:43:17+00:00

It all comes down to whether you believe in AWALT or not imo. There will be women who fit the RP narrative. If not AWALT, then their claim is that there are only a few exceptions. This could really depend on your community, and the women who are more visible to you.

By game, I believe you mean the dread game since you mentioned maintaining a relationship. A healthy woman will leave you, or you can sink to the bottom with an unhealthy woman. No, you won't be happy, and it will not be better than having no one. Doubting someone's feelings for you when you are in a relationship is never better than having no one at all.

Do not date women who doesn't choose you for who you are inside, and thinks of you as a trophy. This goes both ways. There will always be shiny new things. Unless you know you are being valued for more than just being a shiny new thing, be cautious. Actually get to know the person, and see how she treats people who are close to her, the people who should be valued. Yes, it is incredibly hard to find the right person. RP would say, an average man would be lucky to get just A person. I know it is hard, but to get it right, you need to have patience. It sucks. But learn to value people even when you have no romantic interest. That will help you see through people better.

The women who are attracted to bad boys are most likely immature and/or broken. They certainly exist. But do not stick your dick in crazy. You will be attracting the very women you want to avoid even if you are successful, and these are the bad women RP talks about.

leandrot · 2023-02-16T11:18:39+00:00

But if people can switch jobs for better perks and higher pay then what makes you think that women won’t leave for a guy they deem better than their current bf?

This is an interesting part. People want the best in life, for every aspect. When talking about jobs, the good parts of the job are known beforehand. The problems you'll only know when you are at the company working with the people.

Relationships don't function in the same way. The good parts are often found in the partnership that takes years to build and the bad parts become less bad when you work on them together. Changing relationships means throwing away everything in the hope that the attention-heavy behavior of the next guy keeps happening after years of relationship. For most adult women, this isn't worth it unless the current relationship is terrible.

And believe me, knowing how to survive alone and doing therapy sessions already makes you near-irreplaceable as these things are hard to come by and you only really know after months of relationship.

There is a grain of truth on what TRP says about hypergamy, but it's not what people think. Men are twice as likely as women to leave partners because they got fat and seven times as likely if they get ill. Behaviors like DiCaprio's dumping women at 25 are more glorified by men than women. The hypergamy talk is just projection.

It happens and continues to happen, Why? Because it’s clear the “Bad Boy” succeeds in dating compared to the good ole Nice guy. So if it doesn’t work or doesn’t exist then why do guys still adopt the archetype to succeed in dating and why do women still fall for it?

It should be clear to any guy by now that the bad guy gets women despite being bad not because. The clearest example of this, nice guys trying to be bad boys are a very recurring internet joke.

Confidence, strong social circles, not being afraid to say "no" to women. Not ashamed of his own sexuality. Not afraid of communicating his real desires. Many of the "bad boys" are just guys who have their own lives besides the relationship.

TaxNegative161 · 2023-02-16T04:30:15+00:00

Hi, I’ve been lurking in this sub for a while, as I am having some doubts about the Redpill but there are some things about the Redpill that I have yet to see people truly debunk and these are the main ones I have questions on:

Game

Stupid as fuck. Following the instructions of an internet loser and race against the clock to get a very naieve woman into bed with you before your script runs out and she figures out you've been play acting as someone "interesting". Worthless. You want to sleep with people who like you, not your impression of a sad man's desirable man.

Hypergamy

Straight from wikipedia:

They argue that as societies shift towards becoming more gender-equal, women's mate selection preferences shift as well. Some research supports that theory,[12] including a 2012 analysis of a survey of 8,953 people in 37 countries, which found that the more gender-equal a country, the likelier male and female respondents were to report seeking the same qualities as each other rather than different ones.[13]

Don't like Hypergamy? Work towards gender equality and it will die.

The Bad Boy

Absolute bullshit. My personality is kind, considerate, and gentle and I've had more short and long term partners than I can count. Plus you should treat everyone with respect as a matter of principle.

JimBeamAndCoke2016 · 2023-02-16T05:43:16+00:00

Game is the biggest myth and scam going. It has conned lonely men into believing they have a chance with any woman out there, and if it doesn't work, it's because they didn't do the move right, or didn't have the correct posture. In the end women will like you because of personality and social skills and, most importantly, good looks.

By all means get used to chatting with women, but it has nothing to do with negging or eye contact to question ratio.

steppenwolf123 · 2023-02-16T10:11:00+00:00

About the hypergamy part - I find claim that it is "hard to swallow" riddiculous. PUAs had at one point this concept of "demographics" - admitting that there are different types of girls following different models and archetypes. Most redpillers hace strong preference to become "bad boy" figure and try to attract women this way. I guess it might be good for getting laid, but it doesnt attract anybody mature. So basically redpillers create relationship with immature women, who are responsive to this bad boy attitude, which often reflects insecurities in her.

Combine it with redpillers' disdain for sharing of emotional life, and you get really transactional relationship, where redpiller gets sex and prestige from having attractive gf, while women gets prestige for dating successful guy.

To sum up - no, hypergamy is not appliable to whole population. It just seems to be appliable to those certain people that treat relationships in a purely transactional way. And redpillers do just that. "Sexual market value" is one of the cringiest phrase I ever geard, but it really reflects the mindset of people speaking it unironically

BubbhaJebus · 2023-02-16T16:47:54+00:00

In response to the question "Is the Redpill completely wrong?":

Short answer: Yes.

Long answer: Yes indeed.

fathergoose77 · 2023-02-16T22:56:41+00:00

It’s not completely wrong, but the reasons you wrote about are pretty wrong. The only thing RP has right is that it is a positive thing to improve yourself. Any doctor will tell you that you should be mindful oh getting enough physical exercise, eating healthy, keeping your body well, but there’s no need for a 6 pack and huge muscles. It is also positive to work on goals for yourself, find a way to be financially independent with education/career, but there’s no need to be sone super wealthy millionaire. And as humans, we are social creatures, so of course it helps to have and improve on social skills and confidence - not just for dating but for any aspect in your life really, but there’s no reason to use tactics to manipulate others and go against our own morals and ethics.

Game the way RP describes is so dumb and abusive. It’s nice to improve social skills and you can flirt with women without putting them down (that’s fucked up. Take a step back and think - is that the kind of man I want to be? Is that how I want to meet my future partner?)

Hypergamy: both men and women can be hypergamous, however most aren’t, and gender has nothing to do with it. Think about it like this: if you find a women you love and who loves you back, you’ve built a life with her, you are planning a future together, you both have built a strong relationship based on mutual trust, love, respect, and partnership - would you leave this women if a prettier woman happened to show you interest? Women aren’t an alien species, they too can choose commitment to a partner they love.

Lastly, the bad boy archetype is attractive to some women the way some men are attracted to “crazy girls” or “bad bitches” or whatever the fuck dudes say to justify sleeping with a hot woman who is fun but clearly not very stable. Don’t act like it’s only women who do this. Does this mean ALL men prefer unpredictable party girls? No. Also, what a lot of guys who lack social skills think is a “bad boy” is usually just an extroverted, confident, assertive dude. You can be kind and assertive, the two can exist together. One of my buddies is the kindest dude I know, but he’s very extroverted, covered in tattoos, and wears gold chains, so an outside observer would think he’s some “bad boy”, not knowing he actually bakes the best lemon ricotta pies and does the most most thoughtful/sweet stuff for his partner like creating at home scavenger hunts. Don’t judge a book by its cover and all that.

Rumin8ting_ · 2023-02-17T23:55:59+00:00

if people can switch jobs for better perks and higher pay then what makes you think that women wont leave for a guy they deem better than their bf?

What makes you think men wont do this? We already know men leave their partners when they are sick/dying FAR more than women do but i only ever see this shit directed at women. Men date bad girls or women that aren’t good for them, men focus on “superficial standards” like hight, labia shape/size/colour, areola size/colour, cellulite, breast size, “tightness” of the vagina, muscle mass, body shape/size yet I’ve never seen it become a huge thing like RP and blackpill. Sure there are femcels, FDS and those k*ll all men weirdos (that’s more of a response of misogyny but still fucked up). Why are women the target of all this shit when anyone regardless of gender or sex can? Anyone with a brain can really, but I’ve never seen female grifters making bank off this. Does that sound fair to you?

Xx_SwordWords_xX · 2023-02-16T16:35:25+00:00

In this dating scene it’s almost impossible to skate by as an average guy unless you’re willing to date below your preference.

Is your preference an "above-average" woman?

You either become "above-average" yourself, or you get real about your preferences.

whitelight22009 · 2023-02-17T15:30:23+00:00

Honestly I am going to recommend Destiny a YouTuber. He seems to have a nuanced view on these topics while discussing with FnF and pearly. Maybe you already know him.

AntiVictimhood · 2023-02-17T17:33:20+00:00

Game

I think genuine confidence/charisma can and does attract people. People like those who are outgoing and who can convey a genuine sense of confidence. I think people have a gripe about conflating "game" with genuine charisma. "Game" just seems incredibly manipulative and disingenuous. But I don't think it's correct for people to claim that being charismatic has no positive affect on your dating.

But if people can switch jobs for better perks and higher pay then what makes you think that women won’t leave for a guy they deem better than their current bf?

Love, commitment, connection, a genuine bond.

This makes me sad when I hear people say it because to me it indicates the person has not felt genuine love with another person. With my ex, he was unemployed for most of the time we were together, he wasn't the best looking guy around (even though I was very attracted to him some friends joked we were like beauty and the beast), he was in debt, he was studying in a relatively low paying field etc. But I loved that man with all my heart (until he later cheated and that led to the demise of the relationship and inevitably falling out of love and losing respect and attraction towards him) and we had such a strong and unparalleled connection, I couldn't fathom leaving him for another person at the time (sadly the same could not be said for him).

All throughout our relationship, I'd get hit on and asked out at least on a weekly basis. By men who were by all accounts more objectively attractive and certainly much more wealthy and had better earning potential/high paying jobs. But I didn't want those men and I never considered it. I was committed to him, I was in love with him, we had shared so many experiences that deeply bonded us, and I was so invested in his wellbeing and saw him as an extension of myself. No one could compare to him. Sorry, but they just couldn't. Money, appearance etc. was totally irrelevant. I would have died for that man and that level of love and bond cannot be replaced simply because other hot rich men exist and are interested.

If you get into a relationship with someone you are compatible with, where you both love one another and see each other for who you truly are and equally invest in the relationship, you don't think of leaving.

If you date women based solely on beauty, you'd probably leave for woman you're more attracted to who was also interested in you. If you date for income and status, then yeah, you'd probably leave your partner for someone with more wealth and status.

But myself and all the women in my social circle date people who they have a genuine connection and love bond with. They don't date for the superficial reasons. Money doesn't make a man. Beauty doesn't make a woman. And for people who can't fathom that, I genuinely feel bad for. If money and appearance are the sole or primary reasons your partner is staying, you have a weak ass relationship.

The Bad Boy Archetype

I think this has success with young women (this stops working on women past a certain age or when they're no longer naive in dating and love).

In part, we want what we can't have, and people tend to overvalue things that are rare. if you win the interest of a man who shows interest in everyone, it's in abundance. We perceive it as less valuable. But if we win the affections of a man whose love and emotion is scarce, that feels like a greater win. Again, I think this is more appealing to younger women.

Additionally, many young women are quite self conscious. And "bad boys" can have this cool, aloof, indifferent vibe that can be appealing. I dated a "bad boy" when I was 19 and I always admired how he was so confident, shameless, and really put himself first. It was actually a great learning experience for me and I later adopted some of his approaches. I saw how freeing it was to care less about people pleasing and being liked, and how beneficial it could be to be blunt and really go after what you want (which is what he did). In ways, he was like an idol to me and embodied this selfishness and disagreeableness that I needed in order to balance out my previous people pleasing tendencies.

Lastly, I think young women can be attracted to risk and adventure. So the men who embody that will be appealing for some. Now that I'm in my late 20s, I just see those kind of guys as reckless and bad partners. It's no longer a turn on.

I think the adoption of the "bad boy" archetype works depending on what age/demographic of woman you're trying to attract. It is in no ways universal or transcends age groups. For me, it was appealing when I was like 17-22. Beyond that, I saw the "bad boy" as a failure to be adequately socialized and to grow up and successfully take on adulthood. Which is a huge turn off.

AssistTemporary8422 · 2023-02-16T05:07:04+00:00

Game - I saw a post on this sub that said Game is not useful meanwhile admitting that it has worked before.

Some parts of game is useful and some is nonsense. But you can't do it all with just game. If you have poor mental health, poor social skills, neglect your looks, and/or neglect your finances its a lot harder for game to work for you.

In this dating scene it’s almost impossible to skate by as an average guy unless you’re willing to date below your preference.

Most guys prefer a girl out of his league, which is why its really hard for them to date girls they prefer.

But if people can switch jobs for better perks and higher pay then what makes you think that women won’t leave for a guy they deem better than their current bf?

As you build experience you naturally outgrow your job and can find better ones. But most people aren't becoming more and more attractive. Most of the time the guy a woman is with is in her league, and a more attractive guy is out of her league.

Really? Are all relationships that end because of hypergamy, end due to mistreatment?

Can you present any studies that show that most breakups and divorces are due to hypergamy?

Because it’s clear the “Bad Boy” succeeds in dating compared to the good ole Nice guy.

This is because nice guys are more likely to be clingy, approval seeking, expecting sex for niceness, are more boring, have no edge, are less assertive, have low self-esteem, don't make a move, are afraid of taking risks, have weaker boundaries, can't handle conflict, are more socially isolated, have poor social skills, have less shadow integration (Jungian Psychology), and neglect their appearance.

askingforarefill · 2023-02-16T13:57:15+00:00

Long story short, act confident and be nice.

uniquename1992 · 2023-02-16T16:15:57+00:00

"there are some things about the Redpill that I have yet to see people truly debunk". The red pillers debunked them themselves. Donovan sharpe preaches not being with single mom which they are leftovers while being with one. I thought "game" can get himself a 10, no?

Mean_Mechanic9889 · 2023-02-18T21:19:16+00:00

OK. Women. They're all the same? Because this is what the two points you've made rest on.

Are the woman you've met all the same?

If the answer's no. Which obviously it is. These points are debunked.

How's the average woman gonna get a partner? The same way a guy does . . By meeting someone with similar interests, likes. Dislikes. I guarantee you (as a UNIQUE woman) next to no woman have a shared interest in redpill. It's ironic but being redpilled dramatically reduces your natural dating pool to next to non.

Redpilled guys will have to lie to woman to sleep with them and that's it. No long term prospects. No actual love or connection. And honestly ask any old bloke or woman who's lived life. No connection or love sex isn't worthwhile. It's not even as sexually satisfying as it is with someone you respect.

Honestly the points you've made which have an assumption on "woman" are highly offensive to me. I've tried to put it aside to help. But dude I'm a person, like you. What do you actually want in partner? Or are we just prize cattle. Worth nothing further than the meat we possess?

GirlGazing · 2023-02-19T06:28:47+00:00

Purchase Red Pill Ideology, by Cynthia Payne, on Amazon. She’ll clear up everything.

Larcie1996 · 2023-02-27T06:29:32+00:00

I'm not as smart as the people who have answered here. But in reference to game, it doesn't really work half the time, most women tend to date guys they are close with in social settings like School, university, same sport. There has to be a particular interest between the both of you that will keep communication open and constant, for example if you both like the UFC, or Joe rogan, or something controversial like whether aliens exist or not. Depending on the girl and the subject, it could keep the conversation going, Depending on the girl don't immediately flirt with her, just talk, engage in deeper conversations. Eventually just bulid the relationship as a normal friendship while also dropping a couple hints that you like her along the way, small compliments and etc. Again, I'm not entirely sure if this will work Depending on the girl. I'm mostly referring to what I'd like in a guy, and what the rest of my girl friends also like in their boyfriends. They started off friendly, constant texting, dropping slight hints here and there.

The problem I've noticed in the redpill space is they somewhat teach you how to get a woman to sleep with you but they don't teach you how to keep a girl in a relationship. Keeping a girl is somewhat simple, take her to fun dates you both can enjoy and if your on a budget I'd suggest going hiking, having a little movie date at your place, you need to find a girl whom your comfortable speaking to as if she were a good friend. Go for somebody with your common interests! And goals like the Gym, documentaries etc. But do not take advice from the redpill community on how to get a girlfriend. You have to kinda figure it along the way with communication having a partner is a two way street.

Girls don't like the so called 'bad boy' who treats them like a chewed candy wrapper. I'm guessing it's the confidence they have that attracts, and it's not just so called 'chads' who have this confidence it's guys who aren't overly desperate for a relationship or a woman in their life to keep them happy that are the most attractive in my opinion. The most attractive thing about a man is when they have a goal or a drive or a passion for something whether it be Cars, sports, Anime, or even a dream they want to accomplish. Most guys with goals don't think about wanting a girlfriend, they just tend to have one while they're reaching whatever goal or drive that motivates them.

With the other thing mention, I have no idea what that means or what you meant to say lol.

Pasdusername · 2023-02-27T07:27:16+00:00

Please consider taking a look to the r/niceguys sub, if anything can how if redpill is wrong, and why women hate them, its that sub

softspoken19 · 2023-02-16T08:32:02+00:00

I am red pill; however, the truth is that women run game on men too. This isn’t debatable. Women are also victims of male hypergamy. And there is a female archetype that a lot of men fall for as well. Most of the women in this sub are either undesirables or are victims of male abuse. Grain of salt.

Nightchanger · 2023-02-16T19:22:47+00:00

Even if the redpill is completely right. It'll only make you stuck in a loop of misanthropic rumination.

It's better to accept humility and move on.

Title	Is the Redpill completely wrong?
Author	Successful-News8042
Upvotes	12
Comments	68
Date	February 16, 2023 3:59 AM UTC (3 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/ExRedPill
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/exredpill/comments/113he24/is_the_redpill_completely_wrong/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/ExRedPill/is-the-redpill-completely-wrong.1152488 https://theredarchive.com/post/1152488

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