Why does so much dating advice say that you can't feel sorry for yourself?

canadianCFchick · 2022-06-12T16:34:58+00:00

Looking at your profile, I see that you made a post about how to avoid "bad women," and you classify any woman who has ever gone to a club as "bad." Where to even start with this.

I was at a club just last night with my boyfriend of 7 years and a few other friends, one of whom I've known for 16 years and who has done extensive military service including peacekeeping and has saved lives. We just wanted to have a good time singing out loud to some 90s tunes, and I'd love to know why that in your mind makes us all bad people. Or is that just the women who are bad if they have enjoyed this ever?

You are entitled to whatever standards you want no matter how arbitrary and ultimately I agree that someone like yourself and myself could never be compatible, but I just want to point out how blatantly hypocritical it is for you to be so judgemental and reductive while also complaining that women judge you for wallowing in self-pity and feeling sorry for yourself.

The thing that makes this so funny is that you're exactly the kind of male that is the reason why we roll our eyes when a guy feels sorry for himself about the challenges of dating. You're exactly what we're picturing. Judgemental, hypocritical, entitled, and ultimately, whiny. Every single time, without fail.

canadianCFchick · 2022-06-12T16:11:00+00:00

I can only speak from my personal experience and I'm probably not as articulate or good at giving advice as some of the other users here but for me personally, my boyfriend opened up to me on our fifth date and cried and he was talking about his experiences in high school with being ostracized, and his vulnerability ultimately brought us closer together. I guess I think it depends on the topic.

Dating is hell for everyone, or almost everyone, until you find your person. That's just sort of the way it goes. Opening up to someone and trusting someone is a risk that we all take, and it doesn't always pay off. We have "war stories" and it makes us more appreciative in the end when we do find that person and makes it so that we don't take it for granted (which we as human beings tend to do when things come too easy).

Guys who are mired in self-pity and feeling sorry for themself in relation to dating in particular just don't seem to get it. And their mentality seems to be, "my plight is worse than your plight." It seems like they expect a compatible person to fall out of the sky, don't appreciate the combination of growth, self-work that is required and to some extent the sheer amount of luck that is also required to find another human being whose particular peccadilloes you can stand to live with - actually live with - happily for 50 years of life. I mean, if you even just stop for a moment and think about an experience with an annoying roommate, you can see how having to find a roommate whom you are also attracted to and have to be compatible with on some pretty big things potentially like money management (spender vs. saver) or issues like how to raise kids that you have to live with for the duration of your entire lifespan is by nature going to be a pretty challenging task and combination of serendipitous things you align on. It's actually pretty amazing that this happens with the frequency that it does, all things considered.

And we all go through it. So yes, expecting that to be easy or acting like only a man can have problems with this process is going to be eyeroll-inducing to a lot of women.

Talking about the trauma and things that are unique to your experience as an individual is understandable. Everyone should experience being treated with basic decency and respect. No one should be bullied. No one should be treated horribly by their parents or family, who are supposed to love you.

What's missing from these guys a lot of the time is a sense of perspective. Real, true love is not supposed to be easy to find, given the gravity and consequences of the outcomes or the wrong decision. Men who are wallowing in self-pity about it are not treating it with the reverence it deserves, but with a sense of entitlement, like they expect it to be easy and the right person to just fall into their lap. It's challenging for everyone to find, not just you and not just men.

mjornir · 2022-06-12T15:31:55+00:00

It’s not just women-everyone is instinctively repulsed by someone who feels sorry for themselves. Because it’s pathetic. It says you have given up and have no intent of trying to improve your lot in life.

Being repulsed by it doesn’t make anyone a user, they wanna know they’re not stepping into a bad situation where they’re expending energy on someone that is just going to drain them.

If you’re in that kind of state, a partner won’t fix it. You have to work on yourself first.

-Faoladh- · 2022-06-12T20:47:13+00:00

I’m sorry, telling a man to not convince himself that he is undateable makes all women users and cheaters. What a leap to make.

Fucking hell, dude if your mind works like that, it’s the thing holding you back, not how attractive you are or how much money you make.

Yesm3can · 2022-06-12T16:59:28+00:00

Is there actually a real, logical benefit of feeling sorry for one's self? Regardless whether you are a man, a woman, non-binary? Regardless whether you are straight or gay?

The men and women I know who (often) feel sorry for themselves are often failed narcissists or giga Karens. All which I and many other people rightly try to avoid.

Snoo52682 · 2022-06-12T17:18:15+00:00

Being depressed is not the same thing as feeling sorry for yourself. Neither is having a rotten day, or experiencing trauma, or or having chronic illness, or being angry about the injustice of the world. Feeling sorry for yourself means refusing to see yourself as anything other than a victim, and insisting that the world cater to that perception. A person who feels sorry for themselves won't ever bother expending energy or compassion on someone else.

I mean you can go all "Merriam Webster's defines 'sorrow' as ..." and nitpick semantics, but when people say "feeling sorry for themselves," this is what they mean. Interminable self-absorption.

Lady_Beatnik · 2022-06-12T15:33:52+00:00

It's okay to occasionally feel sorry for yourself and wallow a bit. Sometimes it's good to just allow ourselves to feel our pain and soothe ourselves, no matter the situation. Sometimes being positive just makes people feel worse and they instead need reassurance that it's okay to be sad, angry, etc.

The caveat is that this wallowing needs to be temporary and it can't be all-consuming. You can't get so caught up in feeling sorry for yourself that you begin to think that the world owes you something or that it's on someone else to fix your problems. I understand that it's hard to go on when you feel like the world repeatedly shows you over and over that you're not worth much, and it's okay to feel like you don't have the strength and just cry sometimes, but you have to understand that your lack of strength doesn't mean anyone else has to stop their life for your sake.

Maybe you should look into some resources for low self-esteem? Dig into why you take rejection so hard? There's no shame in honestly asking yourself that question, people often feel sensitive and struggle with self-worth for good reasons beyond just "not trying hard enough." You could very well have real issues that go deeper than just your views on dating. Dealing healthily with dating and relationships can be hard when you don't have a good relationship with yourself. It's like playing a contact sport without any padded armor, the normal hits and losses hurt a lot worse.

I have a lot of self-worth issues myself, and these are some of the books that helped me understand it a bit better:

"Breaking The Chain of Low Self-Esteem" by Dr. Marilyn Sorenson (You can take her LSE test here.)
"Running On Empty" by Dr. Jonice Webb (She also has a blog here.)

honey-bundy-88 · 2022-06-12T18:00:34+00:00

Pessimism is not attractive. Self-pity is not attractive. Nobody wants to hear about how hard your struggles are unless it’s immediately followed up by what you’re doing to make them better. That’s just how it is. People don’t seek out relationships to feel more miserable, they’re about mutual support. They may want to help you through things, but your struggles are still largely your own. This is what people mean when they say relationships/girlfriends are not the solutions to all your problems. Nobody wants to feel like they’re the only thing keeping you together. In a weird way, it’s selfish to ask one partner to shoulder the bulk of the emotional labor in a relationship. Having feelings isn’t an issue, it’s the constant complaining with no resolve that gets old very fast.

Philipparty · 2022-06-12T22:49:26+00:00

Well, you have to remember a lot of PUA stuff is based on getting one night stands with the hottest chicks, not about getting in a healthy long term relationship.

If youre at a nightclub trying to get laid, the whole pua bro type is probably more advantageous than walking around feeling bad about yourself.

If youre dating for longterm, telling your partner (mabye not on the first date) that you dont feel great about yourself might be better than the 24/ stoic/pride attitude of pua bros.

But its also a specter. My girlfriend and several of my female fruends have said they felt more attracted and connected after seing their partner cry and be vunerable. But thats not the same as throwing tantrums and crying over small things like a child.

Lastly, be carefull with online info. Smaller percentages of people can seem way bigger online, and a lot of the advice comes from a biased opinion about ones own experience.

softnmushy · 2022-06-13T00:06:44+00:00

I agree with you that people should try to be less judgment of each other.

However, it seems that a lot of your posts and comments are very judgmental of other people. Why on earth would you think all women are users and cheaters? That's objectively false. And it's pretty unhealthy for you to be so judgmental of others.

As for feeling sorry for yourself: Most humans, regardless of gender, don't really enjoy being around people who speak negatively about themselves or others. So, you're not going to make many friends, or girlfriends, by talking about how much you feel sorry for yourself. It's also not very productive. It doesn't really give you any benefit to feel sorry for yourself. It seems natural that people would tell you to try to avoid it.

Academic_Type624 · 2022-06-13T14:46:56+00:00

For many of your arguments you haven't distinguished between temporary or long term attitudes.

If I was dating someone who lost a job or was having a rough patch meaning they were struggling with their mental health then yes I would stick by.

If someone has a long term situation such as an addiction or crippling depression and they have no interest in getting better then that's different. I can't love someone better, only they can do the work to get better. In that situation leaving would be an act of self preservation as I have to look after my mental health to and I can't spend all my energy supporting someone who won't support themselves.

WaffleConeDX · 2022-06-14T02:01:31+00:00

You need a therapist.

xvszero · 2022-06-12T18:57:57+00:00

A few things.

Having emotions and showing them isn't exactly the same as "feeling sorry for yourself". And it's also a matter of degree. Feeling sorry for yourself sometimes is not the same as feeling sorry for yourself all the time. People want a partner, not someone they need to emotionally babysit 24/7.
Also, it's a question of what you're feeling sorry for yourself for. In the case of a lot of incel / red pill types, it's the lack of success with women. But then you're talking about women leaving you. Which would mean... in that situation, you currently have a woman, or are at least having dates with a woman showing interest. No reason to keep feeling sorry for yourself at that point, things are working out ok.
Someone ending a relationship over something isn't the same as cheating. You are not guaranteed a relationship for life with anyone unless you are married to them, and even then, realistically, you're not actually guaranteed a relationship for life with anyone. Anyone can decide they're not feeling it anymore and move on, and that's not cheating, it's not treating you poorly or whatever. That's life. We have no inherent right to the rest of someone's life just because they were into us for awhile.

vcreativ · 2022-06-13T16:38:48+00:00

I think there's a difference between being vulnerable and feeling sorry for yourself. I (a man) for example, don't want to be friends with someone who consistently feels bad for themselves. And I'm not a woman.

I'm happy to help and listen, but after a while, it's a decision to wallow.

I've had two friends like this. After a while the negativity started to affect me. Once I noticed I wasn't exactly keen to stay in touch.

What I'm getting at, is lots of the things that are being complained about aren't all that gendered.

they don't want real emotional intimacy or vulnerability, and if you dare to show it, they'll turn on you at the drop of a hat, and revel in your wounds

That's usually nothing personal. Many people don't know how to process emotions because they haven't learnt how to. It's a tragedy really, but don't take it to heart, just move on.

I should also add that emotional maturity requires development. Many people don't put the work in and are surprised if people are turned off once they see the inner six-year-old throwing a temper tantrum.

Appearing vulnerable isn't the issue then, but rather that the emotional side may well be apparent to be underdeveloped.

Getting angry at being rejected is a classic such instance.

MilkchocolateHero · 2022-06-13T20:55:12+00:00

I think it might be that feeling sorry for yourself can become a habit. This isn't the case for everyone, but some people can become attached to the relief that can come from feeling sorry for yourself. When others see someone expressing those kinds of feelings, they may feel obligated to help that person deal with those feelings.

Everyone has their own issues to deal with and they may not want the responsibilty of helping someone else deal with their issues. I personally think its fine to have a bit of a pity party for yourself every once in a while.

Many of the things that happen in your life are not your fault. You will still have to deal with them in some way. An example would be if someone hits your car while parking in a spot next to yours and drives off. You probably would feel a bit sorry for yourself. Your car getting hit wasn't your fault, but you still have to deal with the situation.

Training_Passenger79 · 2022-06-17T00:19:10+00:00

This is such a difficult problem to work out.

See, one of the main reasons women say this is because this behavior is “at risk” for leading to people becoming sexist, entitled, and unable to accept their own faults. Self-pity is not socially or emotionally mature, and can be devastating in terms of how destructive it is.

Women have little sympathy for self-pity amongst themselves, as well, but I think they have even less patience with men because men (they believe) so rarely process their emotions that someone needs to tell them the truth before it’s too late.

I think many hope that the truth will shock a person out of their funk, too, and help instigate a change in their repetitive, self-destructive behaviors.

They are doing their best not to lie to you and sugar coat things - a thing which many women feel their sex is wrongly accused of, because many women try hard to be honest (with few social, real-world exceptions with strangers), and they know that they are not being dishonest when they speak. So the way that ends up affecting their behavior is that they overcompensate by speaking honestly in a brutal way so that, rather than thinking they’re lying, men will see that they’re telling the truth.

So that’s one side of the story.

The other side of the story is that dating is brutal for men and women and the emotional cost of it is high. Men who are really suffering with how they’ve been treated by women, or the complete apathy women have towards their existence, are genuinely SUFFERING. It hurts. It’s incredibly painful, and it doesn’t help him at all to say he’s objectifying women and just doesn’t understand them - and not explain how reality differs from his perception in a way that allows him to feel free to engage in that conversation and explore another understanding.

Men so rarely talk about their feelings, and they tend to expect women to show more compassion to them than other men - but that is usually not the case. Usually, we project onto the opposite sex, and attribute to them the bad experiences we’ve had with their sex in the past.

Also, I do actually think women are a lot more hardcore about maturity and self-reliance, because it seems that women mature more quickly in these regards than men for reasons of nature and nurture, and also, feel a great sense of pressure about needing to grow up fast and grow up right.

Men experience a different path in life. It’s not that they have less responsibilities, but in many cases, I think they are not as rushed as women to live up to them.

So a lot of women are speaking from a place of the anxiety they feel that we all need to own up to the harsh cruel world out there - because this has been something that’s been ingrained in them from a very early age.

I think it’s not accurate to assume that women are the more compassionate sex. I think the average woman is more empathetically able than the average man, but that doesn’t necessarily mean women are compassionate. Women can, in fact, be very cut throat, and the older you are the less sympathy they have for signs of immaturity.

That is why it is so important for you to confide things that are sensitive and meaningful to you ONLY to people you know you can trust. That’s something society never tells us. They tell you to share your emotions - but leave out the fact that you have to be extremely careful when you do, and select your audience very precisely.

Most women are doing this without realizing it, I found out. I was a woman who never shared my emotions because I knew I would get shamed and humiliated by society if I did. Then I was gaslighted into believing I should, so I did, and was immediately and repeatedly proven right over the course of a year until I stopped that behavior.

Society simply cannot be trusted with your feelings. However, individual people that you build a connection with and a rapport with, can, if you choose the right people and then trust them with your feelings, knowing that many of them won’t react in the way you need them to.

I’m sorry that I don’t think my comment is going to give you the sense of closure and assurance you’re looking for. I feel very bad for the way women have talked to men in pain - I was guilty of that behavior myself. I know why women talk that way, but I also know that it’s wrong. You need to invite and encourage people to grow - not berate them for failing.

I wish the world wasn’t like this, but in my personal experience - it just is what it is - and possibly the worst place to go for compassion is Reddit. I don’t know if I’ve ever seen a media outlet with more hateful, bitter, psychologically distressed individuals. I suspect many are very depressed, and depressed people can’t really see to the needs of others…their own needs are too great.

Title	Why does so much dating advice say that you can't feel sorry for yourself?
Author	tehWoodcock
Upvotes	16
Comments	164
Date	June 12, 2022 3:03 PM UTC (4 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/ExRedPill
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/exredpill/comments/vanto0/why_does_so_much_dating_advice_say_that_you_cant/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/ExRedPill/why-does-so-much-dating-advice-say-that-you-cant.1116277 https://theredarchive.com/post/1116277

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