~ archived since 2018 ~

DID I JUST GET RED PILLED?

TisIChenoir

December 12, 2024

122 upvotes

/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates

https://youtu.be/oFHbyUAQqE0?si=aYi2rLmwb3PIb1Og

Hey there felliw LWMists.

I recently stumbled upon this video from a psychologist exploring masculinity and the way it's culturally depicted.

I think she has some really good point, and I especially like how she articulated the fact that the backlash against Men's Advocacy comes from a perception of danger on the part of quite a number of person.

Basically, we've been telling women that they've been oppressed bh men for o long as of now, that any mention of male specific issue is felt like an attack, and brings about an aggressive response. It's perceived as a threat to the worldview of those who believe men to be a class of oppressor.

They basically entrenched themselves in a zero-sum game whereas any attention toward males issues remives from women's issues.

Anyhow, she'll explain it much better than I ever can. She only has 3 vids as of now, but I'm interested in her future work!

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Post Information

Title	DID I JUST GET RED PILLED?
Author	TisIChenoir
Upvotes	122
Comments	70
Date	December 12, 2024 5:44 PM UTC (1 year ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/comments/1hcqo86/did_i_just_get_red_pilled/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/did-i-just-get-red-pilled.1538324 https://theredarchive.com/post/1538324

Comments

[–]CeleryMan20 83 points84 points85 points 1 year ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Butter_the_Gar 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]vegetables-10000 69 points70 points71 points 1 year ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[+]EmperorMalkuth -11 points-10 points-9 points 1 year ago (2 children) | Copy Link

I dont think its a zero sum game.

Tho i consider myself both a feminist and a mens rights activist ( tho both are supposed to deal with the issues of all sexes just with a slight focus of one) The issue with the label " mens rights activist" is that for decades it has been co-opted by rightwing ideologues in ordee to push a traditionalist conservative social paradigm, so now when people hear " a mens right activist" they dont think " like a feminist by mainly focusing on men", they think " an anti-feminist", and really, a lot of people who claim to be mens rights activists are in fact just anti-feminists, exclusing this sub and some from my knowledge rare exceptions.

So in some sence, we are forced to make a clarifying statement for our mens rights activism because people would often assume that we might be reactionaries. ( and as i said, i think people unfortunately have a good reason to be skeptical, tho the fact does suck. Its like what happened to wokeness— it went from a term black people used to say " are you aware of the opressive systems we live under, are you intune with whats happening" and the rightwing media turned it into this meaningless drivel word that is like how they used to scare americans with " comunism" which wasnt even comunism but i digress)

Mens rights activism is necessary thease days, but we really have to either pull the term out of the gutter of conservatism, oor, just use a different term which is distinctive to actual mens rights activism, like most of whats beeing talked about on this sub.

Altho, i reqlly dont see how a person can be a mens right activist without supporting female rights also, or how someone can be a feminost without also supporting mens rights. Maybe i misunderstand your point, in which case do correct me pleaae, but for any activist, the bare minimum should be trying to have good positions and do at least the minimum of not beeing misinformed or spreading misinformation about movements which arent the center of our individual focus. I do think men should support womans rights by default, and that woman should support mens rights by default. I dont get how that expectation is bad in any way. Or maybe you were trying to say something like " they expect womans rights to be the focus by default"? Or?

If thats what you were trying to say, then whille i dont aguree that feminists in general neceserally want to put womans rights front and centre, i would opose people if they thought some groups should have their problems solved whille the others wait till the first group gets the job done— i think we shoupd attack the system from all sides, from every problem point

Also id like to mention that i dont consider thinkgs like the 4B movement as feminist movements— same with the terf movement. Whille they have " feminist" in the name, they do not share feminist values. To be a feminist, a person has to first of all understans that the problems dont stem from some inharent genetic difference between the sexes, but rather, that its because of the way we are socialised , and that beeing male and presenting as a man, doesnt inharently make one an opositional force to woman, and this is also why i dont consider any rightwing mens rights movement as an authentically mens rights movement, because they do the same thing but to woman, they essentialise them, and percieve woman as an inharently opositional force to men.

Have a good day

[–]SchalaZeal01left-wing male advocate 10 points11 points12 points 1 year ago (0 children) | Copy Link

The issue with the label " mens rights activist" is that for decades it has been co-opted by rightwing ideologues in ordee to push a traditionalist conservative social paradigm, so now when people hear " a mens right activist" they dont think " like a feminist by mainly focusing on men", they think " an anti-feminist", and really, a lot of people who claim to be mens rights activists are in fact just anti-feminists, exclusing this sub and some from my knowledge rare exceptions.

Besides Paul Elam, just about nobody who is a MRA rose to prominence enough to even be heard outside the niche. So, this is false. Even before Paul Elam showed up, the ideology of oppressor/oppressed said that men could not have issues, so that any man bringing stuff would be derailing to stop helping women, while not caring about men. This was assumed from the start with no proof, because of course, male life is ez mode. They've got no problem at all caused by male gender role, and no discrimination to speak of. Only women need to be brought up to the higher levels of men, men have no specific issue.

The dogma said this back then, and it still says this right now. Men have no problems, men ARE the problems, could be the slogan for the Democrat party.

[–]xaliadouri 5 points6 points7 points 1 year ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Sure-Vermicelli4369 84 points85 points86 points 1 year ago (8 children) | Copy Link

[–]Sure-Vermicelli4369 104 points105 points106 points 1 year ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]rump_truck 30 points31 points32 points 1 year ago (1 child) | Copy Link

It's honestly pathetic how far behind the mainstream is in regards to anything to do with men.

Feminists rave about The Will to Change like it was a religious experience and bell hooks was some kind of man prophet. Her secret? Ask men about their experiences and listen in good faith. The revelation? Men aren't coddled by patriarchy, and in fact men feel pain and experience problems too. I'm not even joking.

Something that basic was published in 2004. It was treated like a religious experience because the discourse at the time was even more basic than that. 20 years later, it's still relevant because the discourse somehow hasn't managed to outgrow it. Sure, they threw us a bone with "patriarchy hurts men too," but that's pretty much it. Every time the book comes up there's still a steady stream of "Mothers can enforce patriarchy on their sons? What an interesting new concept from 20 years ago! Men are hesitant to share their emotions because women judge them negatively for it? I never considered that possibility despite men shouting it from the rooftops every single time the subject is mentioned."

She fed them the barest scrap of nuance, and they still haven't managed to chew it 20 years later.

[–]Karmaze 16 points17 points18 points 1 year ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]EmperorMalkuth -14 points-13 points-12 points 1 year ago (4 children) | Copy Link

I dont even see this as the issue tbh. The rightwing has for decades co-opted the term " mens rights" and now feminists have been primed to think of people using that label as people whonare very likelly traditionalist, rightwing reactionaries.

Infact, us conceeding to this nerrative that feminists are somehow having this zero sum game approach, is just what the rightwing wants.

The red pill movement has a preciselly zero sum game approach, and for years they have used this nerrative that " oh no, its woman who want a zero sum game", meanwhille feminists have been doing activism for both men and woman for decades if we look into the tact record of actual feminist organisations.

( when i say " real feminist organisation" i mean organisations and people who are not terfs, who are not 4B, so anything other then that basically. People who are egalitarian, who dont essentialise based on gender and sex, people who underatand that behavioural differences between the sexes are largely a result of reactionary forcea in our society which seek to perpetuate this unjust system and a devision between prople who otherwise have everything in common)

Have a nice day

[–]Input_output_error 22 points23 points24 points 1 year ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Infact, us conceeding to this nerrative that feminists are somehow having this zero sum game approach, is just what the rightwing wants.

So 'the right' wants us to embrace the narrative of 'the left'? I'm sorry but that doesn't make any sense. It is the feminist that made this into a zero sum game.

The red pill movement has a preciselly zero sum game approach, and for years they have used this nerrative that " oh no, its woman who want a zero sum game",

The fact is that a lot of these things are a zero sum game, there is no way around it. You can't spend money twice and there is only so much funds available for certain problems. So if for example there would finally be funding for things like men's shelters then this will come from the budget for shelters in general. This means that there is less funds for women's shelters.

meanwhille feminists have been doing activism for both men and woman for decades if we look into the tact record of actual feminist organisations.

Yea no, feminism has never done anything for the sole betterment of men in general.

( when i say " real feminist organisation" i mean organisations and people who are not terfs, who are not 4B, so anything other then that basically. People who are egalitarian, who dont essentialise based on gender and sex, people who underatand that behavioural differences between the sexes are largely a result of reactionary forcea in our society which seek to perpetuate this unjust system and a devision between prople who otherwise have everything in common)

So only the people you agree with, those are the 'real' feminist? Let me quote you something Karen Straughan once said:

So what you're saying is that you, a commenter using a username on an internet forum are the true feminist, and the feminists actually responsible for changing the laws, writing the academic theory, teaching the courses, influencing the public policies, and the massive, well-funded feminist organizations with thousands and thousands of members all of whom call themselves feminists... they are not "real feminists".

That's not just "no true Scotsman". That's delusional self deception.

Listen, if you want to call yourself a feminist, I don't care. I've been investigating feminism for more than 9 years now, and people like you used to piss me off, because to my mind all you were doing was providing cover and ballast for the powerful political and academic feminists you claim are just jerks. And believe me, they ARE jerks. If you knew half of what I know about the things they've done under the banner of feminism, maybe you'd stop calling yourself one.

But I want you to know. You don't matter. You're not the director of the Feminist Majority Foundation and editor of Ms. Magazine, Katherine Spillar, who said of domestic violence: "Well, that's just a clean-up word for wife-beating," and went on to add that regarding male victims of dating violence, "we know it's not girls beating up boys, it's boys beating up girls."

You're not Jan Reimer, former mayor of Edmonton and long-time head of Alberta's Network of Women's Shelters, who just a few years ago refused to appear on a TV program discussing male victims of domestic violence, because for her to even show up and discuss it would lend legitimacy to the idea that they exist.

You're not Mary P Koss, who describes male victims of female rapists in her academic papers as being not rape victims because they were "ambivalent about their sexual desires" (if you don't know what that means, it's that they actually wanted it), and then went on to define them out of the definition of rape in the CDC's research because it's inappropriate to consider what happened to them rape.

You're not the National Organization for Women, and its associated legal foundations, who lobbied to replace the gender neutral federal Family Violence Prevention and Services Act of 1984 with the obscenely gendered Violence Against Women Act of 1994. The passing of that law cut male victims out of support services and legal assistance in more than 60 passages, just because they were male.

You're not the Florida chapter of the NOW, who successfully lobbied to have Governor Rick Scott veto not one, but two alimony reform bills in the last ten years, bills that had passed both houses with overwhelming bipartisan support, and were supported by more than 70% of the electorate.

You're not the feminist group in Maryland who convinced every female member of the House on both sides of the aisle to walk off the floor when a shared parenting bill came up for a vote, meaning the quorum could not be met and the bill died then and there.

You're not the feminists in Canada agitating to remove sexual assault from the normal criminal courts, into quasi-criminal courts of equity where the burden of proof would be lowered, the defendant could be compelled to testify, discovery would go both ways, and defendants would not be entitled to a public defender.

You're not Professor Elizabeth Sheehy, who wrote a book advocating that women not only have the right to murder their husbands without fear of prosecution if they make a claim of abuse, but that they have the moral responsibility to murder their husbands.

You're not the feminist legal scholars and advocates who successfully changed rape laws such that a woman's history of making multiple false allegations of rape can be excluded from evidence at trial because it's "part of her sexual history."

You're not the feminists who splattered the media with the false claim that putting your penis in a passed-out woman's mouth is "not a crime" in Oklahoma, because the prosecutor was incompetent and charged the defendant under an inappropriate statute (forcible sodomy) and the higher court refused to expand the definition of that statute beyond its intended scope when there was already a perfectly good one (sexual battery) already there. You're not the idiot feminists lying to the public and potentially putting women in Oklahoma at risk by telling potential offenders there's a "legal" way to rape them.

And you're none of the hundreds or thousands of feminist scholars, writers, thinkers, researchers, teachers and philosophers who constructed and propagate the body of bunkum theories upon which all of these atrocities are based.

You're the true feminist. Some random person on the internet.

You're not the one who gets to decide who is and who isn't a real feminist. And honestly i think it is very rich for a feminist to say anything about being reactionary. Feminism is nothing but a bunch of people whining about everything that they perceive through their colored glasses.

Have a nice day.

[–]SchalaZeal01left-wing male advocate 6 points7 points8 points 1 year ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

The rightwing has for decades co-opted the term " mens rights" and now feminists have been primed to think of people using that label as people whonare very likelly traditionalist, rightwing reactionaries.

They had this opinion before anyone said anything. Because everyone against your cult is an heretic. Not a concerned citizen, not someone who wants to be included in your victim category that you made too niche for the issue (ie gendering DV).

The red pill movement has a preciselly zero sum game approach, and for years they have used this nerrative that " oh no, its woman who want a zero sum game", meanwhille feminists have been doing activism for both men and woman for decades if we look into the tact record of actual feminist organisations.

Except the RP movement never was MRA.

And we can credit NOW for opposing removing lifetime alimony in Florida, twice successfully. Until DeSantis told them to buzz off and passed it. We can credit them for opposing presumption of shared parenting, and defenders of this as being violent parents. We can credit feminism for changing a gender neutral DV law into a gendered one. We can credit them for instituting the Duluth Model, and the trainwreck of a law Violenca de generos is in Spain (which of course only recognizes female victims of men, makes a 2 tier justice system where violence against women is worse than violence against men in a context of DV, gives monetary incentive to lie which will cause false imprisonment on innocent men (for a few days) while stealing funds (as being proven to lie doesn't remove the money).

[–]ChimpPimp20 -1 points0 points1 point 1 year ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

meanwhille feminists have been doing activism for both men and woman for decades if we look into the tact record of actual feminist organisations.

Which organizations are these?

Infact, us conceeding to this nerrative that feminists are somehow having this zero sum game approach, is just what the rightwing wants.

You're pointing the finger like the other leftists. It seems that it's all the right's fault and that the left has no part in the issues here. It's just more infallibility. You may not be doing this on purpose but it's something that seems to be implied in a lot of feminists speak to. There are posts on this very sub of renowned feminists doing exactly what you say they don't do. We need to stop pretending that bad feminists don't exist. The more you attempt to do that the more tainted the group looks. I don't die on the hill for every black man that shot by police because I understand the concept of "fuck around and find out." Do people call me a coon? Sometimes. However, I need to be realistic and understand that flaws exist everywhere both in this sub and the feminist ones.

Here's a list of the feminists you say don't exist.

https://np.reddit.com/r/everydaymisandry/comments/1hdeklh/the_jokes_write_themselves_now/

I don't think it's a lie to say feminist help men. However, what is a lie is saying that there are no bad feminists that have significantly hurt men. It seems bad feminists aren't significant enough to talk about and only "cherry-picking."

np.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/comments/1gtjhrv/debunking_feminists_help_men_too_lie/

My problem with this sub is the vilification of feminists. My problem with feminists is the infallibility.

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[–]Snoo_78037 15 points16 points17 points 1 year ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Yeah a lot of men are either unaware or just choose to deny their vulnerabilities and just choose to pander to women instead and proclaim that they're the "one good man". It's more complicated than this of course but yeah. Even when men try to make spaces to talk about their issues they get shut down faster than you can say patriarchy. Honey badgers are valuable like you said because it makes men's Issues a teeny tiny bit more palatable when it's coming out of a woman's mouth instead of a man's. I hate hate hate the fact that its like this but yeah. Men's Issues is a really tough pill to swallow for society at large. I'm grateful for women like Karen Straughan that was basically my gateway drug to the men's Issues community and I've never looked back and I will NEVER look back. The honey badgers and also the male MRAs are the only ones in my entire life that made me feel truly heard as a man. I was always holding in a little bit of guilt in just for being born male it sucked I felt a weight lifted off my shoulders when I was introduced to this community. I grew up Christian and I still am and it really hurts me to see fellow Christians around find it so hard to take men's Issues seriously since everyone is equal and deserves equal compassion and consideration according to the virtues of the faith but I often see other "Christians" assume the worst of men and continue to give women the benefit of the doubt at every turn. Thinking the men in their lives are exceptions but women of other cultures are innocent but men of other cultures are evil and they oppress their women. There are even Christians that say they would rather choose the bear or talking about it like it's close and men can be compared to such beasts. I bring this up to say that the feminist narrative is incredibly pervasive and gynocentrism is a disease. Bigotry never seems goes away it just evolves and mutates like a virus. Despite all that I still have hope. I might be dead by the time we clock in as a society but there's still hope I'm far from a misanthrope.

[–]Think_Treat6421 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Snoo_78037 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Yeah. Christians in the past simultaneously acknowledge women's value and their contemptibility. There was even a monk in the 13th century Germany called Caesarius of Heisterbach, wrote a lesson in a collection called dialogus miraculorum acknowledging the fact that women can also engage in sexually immoral behaviour :

The young man, remembering holy Joseph, despised her words and promises. When she perceived she could get nothing from him, she accused him before the judges of sexually assaulting her. He denied that charge, but he wasn’t believed. He was sent into a walled prison, the place for those condemned to death.

Nowadays, I feel like Christians. Nowadays, just pander to women in such obsequious ways sometimes and act like men more unscrupulous in their behaviour even though the Bible doesn't say that. It's really frustrating.

it's wild

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I am sorry to interrupt here. I am a Marxist. I understand what you're saying about feminists using the same kind of "us versus them" model to describe patriarchy. I agree that patriarchy is a myth. Men do not dominate women the way rich dominate poor. Women actually have a lot of social power men do not.

The "us versus them" model works a lot better when being applied to class than to sex. The divide between rich and poor is pretty self-evident. They use their wealth and influence to control Congress through lobbyists precisely because the interests of the wealthy are at odds with those of the poor. That is the class struggle.

Marx did indeed live in a world of brutal exploitation of workers as young as six years old who worked as many as 18 hours per day. He cites innumerable newspaper articles and government reports on the plight of employees under capitalism in Das Kapital. The way he basically defines capitalism is that it's a system where employees are paid less than the value they produce with their labor so the employer can keep the excess value as profit. He lived in that environment and he wrote extensively about it.

I wanted to share that with you, but I understand if you do not agree with his criticisms of capitalism. I am still happy you're here as a male advocate.

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