Men to be able to stop abortion

BCRE8TVE · 2021-02-23T21:47:24+00:00

It's interesting how every single one of those objections, pointed at women, would be met with shrill cries and accusations of misogyny. I guess when it's pointed at men though, it's not misandry, it's just par for the course?

On the abortion question, I do think that the mother should not be forced by law to go through with a pregnancy she does not wish to have. It is her body going through those changes, and so her bodily autonomy must be respected.

However, there is a problem, because there are no such laws protecting men's bodily autonomy, and no provision whatsoever for men to not be held accountable if they do not want to be. At any point during or after pregnancy, the mother may abort (if it is medically safe to do so) or then put the child up for adoption, with absolutely no obligations tied back to her. As a man, the moment your sperm leaves your dick, you have absolutely no protection whatsoever from the full might of the law, and everything that happens afterwards depends 100% on how the mother feels about it.

This is unfair and needs to change. Women make as much as men now. They're strong independent women who don't need no men, and they don't need alimony. Child support is another thing entirely, but child support shouldn't be to the tune of thousands of dollars a month, and there should be an equivalence that if the mother can put the kid up for adoption without having to pay for child support, then neither should the father be on the hook.

It's interesting how the conversation so often boils down to shaming men and trying to browbeat them into taking care of a child they don't want to, and yet it really wasn't that long ago that feminism successfully fought a campaign to change it so women wouldn't be forced into taking care of a child they don't want to. The double standards are blindingly obvious, and yet somehow everyone still manages to miss that.

matrixislife · 2021-02-23T22:37:22+00:00

Men shouldn't be able to force women to continue a pregnancy. That is so open to abuse it's not even funny.
Men should be able to disassociate from a pregnancy if it's not what they want.
Women should not be able to force men to become fathers in the same way men should not be able to force women to become mothers.

Originally posted on r/MensLib but deleted by moderation

Why am I not surprised? Except in that you expected anything different.

MizuNomuHito · 2021-02-23T21:41:01+00:00

"The sexes will never be equal in this situation so I am fine with men being the ones who are disadvantaged" is the response you will get from most people.

DanteLivra · 2021-02-23T23:03:27+00:00

I agree, women should be in full control of their bodies, but everyone should be in full control of their lives. Parental rights should be consented to. Hopefully the law is gonna past, people are gonna realise how awful it is and it will be changed into legal abortions.

No wonder it was banned on menlib, they surely don't want to have a conversation that could favor men over there.

lorarc · 2021-02-23T22:51:13+00:00

This has been discussed over and over again, hypoagency and hyperagency. Men make thinks happen, women have things happening to her. Some people believe women has a right to abortion for no reason but yet they believe a man should be responsible if they agreed to sex even in case the birth control fails or they were cheated. There were cases where women self-impregnated themselves with sperm from condom and the courts decided that men are responsible no matter what.

Paper abortions can lead to some fringe shitty situation where a men says he wants the child and then backs out at the last moment leaving the woman to deal with the consequences but those really are fringe cases and could end it court for all I care. However for men and women to be equal we must respect both of them being able to be responsible for their actions.

As for the law requiring the permission of the father? It's extremely shitty and in practice it's unenforcable as at the stage where the abortion is allowed the paternity tests are not made.

silverado1995 · 2021-02-23T22:14:19+00:00

If "don't have sex" isn't a defense against abortion, then it isn't valid in this situation either.

SnooBeans6591 · 2021-02-23T22:36:18+00:00

My thoughts: the fact that it was deleted on r/MensLib tells everything we have to know about the sub: misandric crap.

I mean even some feminists have advocated for what you are saying. Because it's actually kinda obvious that this should be the case when you know that women can choose to not abort and then decide to forfeit their parental rights and duties without asking the father.

Father's are systematically fucked over by society whenever possible.

CervantesX · 2021-02-23T22:27:26+00:00

Yep, fully agree. It's silly to force one party or the other into parenthood if they know they're not ready. Both parties are responsible for it and both should have a choice. Heck, I even think that if the mom is unwilling to be a parent but the dad is, if she wants the mom could carry to term, give it up to the dad and peace out.

Of course there's a small and thorny gray area for exceptions to the "two willing partners", but that's a different argument that shouldn't distract from this one which covers the vast majority of cases.

I just think both parties should have to declare before the kid is born. If you're a parent who agreed to stick around and then abandoned, let the penalties be huge.

jonny-p · 2021-02-23T21:46:17+00:00

Completely agree, paper abortions give as close to equal rights on this as possible. Women can unilaterally decide not to become mothers by aborting the pregnancy. Men should have the right to relinquish parental responsibility. No one should be allowed to prevent a woman from having an abortion as due to biological differences she is the one having to carry and give birth to the child. There will still be cases where the father wants the child but the mother does not and I think then the father should be able to offer to take on full responsibility once the child is born but ultimately the one carrying the baby should make the decision.

Vandechoz · 2021-02-23T21:44:00+00:00

link to bill (it's for the state of Tennessee)

"caption text" for bill:

AN ACT to amend Tennessee Code Annotated, Title 24; Title 29; Title 36; Title 39 and Title 68, Chapter 3, relative to abortion.

Abortion - As introduced, permits a person to petition a court for an injunction to prohibit a woman who is pregnant with the person's unborn child from obtaining an abortion; requires the petitioner to execute a voluntary acknowledgement of paternity that is not subject to being rescinded or challenged. - Amends TCA Title 24; Title 29; Title 36; Title 39 and Title 68, Chapter 3.

dzialamdzielo · 2021-02-23T21:22:10+00:00

I have unfinished opinions on abortion so I'm going to dodge the core of your question.

What I think is more outraging is for mothers, in some jurisdictions, to have strong rights to unilaterally give up a child that may very much be wanted by the father.

Mad_Hatter_92 · 2021-02-23T21:50:47+00:00

Sure, it would be nice to have a say on a situation where you are potentially on the line for hundreds of thousands of dollars just because the woman wants to keep the baby and you don’t... but legislators will never pass something like that. It hurts their bottom line by lowering birth rate.

Not to mention, they would have to battle a sea of angry women who like the ability to unilaterally decide whether they will have a child or not.

I just try not to stick my dick in crazy, and make sure I know what kind of girl I’m hooking up with.

omegaphallic · 2021-02-23T23:26:36+00:00

I oppose this law, but many others who oppose this law are hypocrites.

Ombree123 · 2021-02-23T23:40:08+00:00

This law should be opposed. Women should not be forced to carry an unwanted pregnancy to term.

Men should have a financial and legal out, but not this. You can not be a left winger and support this bill.

Vandechoz · 2021-02-23T21:57:17+00:00

My first thoughts are that this wouldn't survive the first courtroom it gets to, assuming it ever passes.

Second thoughts are that maybe attempts at legislation like this will get opponents to accidentally admit that a man has no business having any involvement in what happens after he makes a voluntary sperm donation, without the recipient offering to allow that involvement.

SultanSoSupreme · 2021-02-24T02:08:46+00:00

" Men have EVERY say in whether or not they become parents. don't have unprotected sex. Don't have sex. "

What if the woman pokes a discreet hole in the condom?

HumanNumber348 · 2021-02-24T07:59:50+00:00

Yes. Almost all arguments against this law could just as well be used as an argument against abortion. Being for abortion but against rights to give up parental duties is an inconsistent position.

I don't think it will be a good idea to implement this in a country where abortion rights are still up for debate, though, as it will result in people being forced to bear children alone.

YesAmAThrowaway · 2021-02-23T23:28:28+00:00

The thing is, I don't think there's a superior position for abortion in relation to deciding when it is or isn't done. You don't want people to be able to force women into certain things, however the father should have just as much say as with what happens with his child. These two factors are in a deadlock and can be spinned in circles over and over again. I can understand why anybody would have any position on it.

DistrictAccurate · 2021-02-24T01:10:12+00:00

I do not have a solution to this issue and there might never be, but your statement appears to be contradicting itself.

While I think men should be able to have a say in having/not having to be a parent, the law is completely backwards.

Therefore, a woman is allowed to decide whether or not there is a baby to pay for and a man is not, regardless of it being a product of raping him, stealthing or whatever. The child is there if she wants it and it won't be there even if he'd want it.

The choice of being a parent during pregnancy should be given equally to both women and men.

This is incompatible with your first statement. Not only is giving up one's parental status alone not equal to abortion, but in case he wants the child and she does not, he can't become a father at all even if she was able to drop her parental status. Conversely, even if he does not want the child, she does have the option to become a mother at the cost of him dropping his parental status.

Again, I have no idea how to solve this in a humane manner for all parties involved, which is why I usually do not even bring it up - yet, there's no reason to lie about it being everything but equal.

Nath43673 · 2021-02-24T02:11:55+00:00

The fact that any man wants to terminate his parental rights means he is not a man.

I realise this is a side point, but that language better have been coming from a traditionalist, someone who's willing to see a woman making a morally questionable life decision and say she's "not a woman".

Ombree123 · 2021-02-24T02:58:47+00:00

I think that only a pregnant woman should have the final say about abortion. Allowing a woman's partner to have a say would violate personal freedom.

revente · 2021-02-24T09:22:30+00:00

Frankly i think that we shouldn't look at this issue from male/female perspective but from childs. So either both parents want to raise it or it's aborted. So no child is born disadvantaged and raised just by a single parent (when the other one is alive ofc). But i guess it sounds too radical for pro-life crowd.

DIES-_-IRAE · 2021-02-23T22:29:43+00:00

I hope it passes.

That way if they want help making it right (because it's obviously bullshit), they can put Legal Paternal Surrender on the bill to correct it.

Otherwise I won't help people who don't help me.

redgarnetamaranth · 2021-02-23T22:09:14+00:00

The issue for me is that it's messy no matter how you slice it. Giving birth is a sacrifice. In a perfect situation where the man wasn't raped, didn't have holes poked into the condom or didn't get fucked over in court and was an actual deadbeat, should he pay child support? imo yeah, he should. I can only really see it narrowing down to people who just recklessly have sex without a condom, which if you do then you should pay child support in the event that she wants to keep it, but that also makes me question how often that happens, versus all the other shitty scenarios a man can find himself in.

These concerns can largely be indirectly addressed by just giving more of a shit about male rape victims and shitty family court systems that fuck over men. Narrowing down family court disputes to true deadbeat dads fixes a lot of problems for everyone, but people first need to acknowledge that men do get fucked over(which requires listening to MRAs).

ActualDriver8 · 2021-02-23T23:31:04+00:00

This is a bad one, I'm all for men rights but if women wouldn't be able to have safe abortions at clinics then they will just do it by themselves which is fucking dangerous. Sorry but this situation will always be in favor of women (rights wise), as unfair and fucked up as it is, and I'm saying that as a man. Btw the solution to this is to just not have sex /s. verginity is cool, stay pure!

bison_breakfast · 2021-02-23T22:22:50+00:00

It’s called a paper abortion and I think I might be a supporter.

TheWheatOne · 2021-02-24T00:50:12+00:00

Got evidence it was deleted by MensLib mods? Sounds juicy.

elusivem · 2021-02-24T01:21:55+00:00

Man. What a serious conundrum of a post. I am not pro abortion but I am pro choice. But it is a dilemma when it come to the guys side of the fight. On one side guys dont havento carry the baby and have the medical complications that come with it, but on the other hand they are the father of the potential child. So giving them a say there is questionable at best. The part about being able to sign all parental rights away would help make things more equal, but there are enough deadbeat parents out there as it is. So I cant say I fully support this either. Just because there are guys who would definitely get a girl pregnant and walk away just because they can. But guys do deserve a say in some form between conception and birth. Even if its not their body, it is still their potential child. I can say for myself just watch what you stick your dick in. Thats the most responsible for both parties, but if they have an out we should too. It is a very different train of thought than what society has made us accept, and im still not sure how I feel about it either way.

LeftcelInflitrator · 2021-02-25T23:07:42+00:00

Do you have any link regarding the law, I'd like to know more details.

Svennboii · 2021-02-28T07:44:08+00:00

I don't think men should be able to decide in abortion unless they are rape victims where they should have 100% of the say in abortion.

2021-03-02T13:11:02+00:00

I wouldn't want women to be forced to end pregnancies, but I'd want the right not to be the father if I change my mind, the woman cheated or lied about contraceptives. I want control over my destiny like women have with access to abortion.

At the end of the day getting a vasectomy is smart in this gynocentric society.

Ombree123 · 2021-03-02T22:10:48+00:00

if your argument is “women do this so men should be able to do this” You shouldn’t be making one at all, every issue of politics should be looked at separately and the option that would make society better as a whole should be chosen somebody not paying child support isn’t one.

adam-l · 2021-02-24T06:42:46+00:00

Originally posted on r/MensLib but deleted by moderation

Why do people with even a modicum of reason still post on MensLib, I can't fathom. Mods there scrutinize every and all posts and comments for anything that might be considered "misogyny", and delete-ban. The ideas in the posts are of secondary, if any, importance. Anyway.

Now, everyone claiming to support equality needs to address reproductive equality. It is logically self-evident, I believe, but since most people are emotional creatures, it eludes them.

No man needs to wonder whether in 20 years a guy is going to come over saying "dad!". See the movie "The King" with Gael Garcia Bernard for a treatise on the issue.

Another related issue is a specific reproductive right, specifically the right to reproduction. What about men that don't get selected by any women? Should they not have a right to reproduction like the rest of humanity? And, because rights are often a vacant notion, shouldn't they have a chance at reproduction?

If men who have no property at all are, nevertheless, obliged to defend "their" country in wars, i.e. there is an equality in obligation even if their life is at stake, (for men, of course, women get special treatment), why shouldn't there be an equality of rights and opportunities when their reproduction is at stake?

Ombree123 · 2021-03-01T14:54:12+00:00

Women having the basic human right for medical control over their bodies is not equivalent to men wanting the luxury to financially abandon their children.

Your argument is rooted in a false equivalence and the belief that the only measure for what is fair is equality of an outcome.

By that standard non-disabled folks are discriminated against because they don't get prime handicap parking spots.

Title	Men to be able to stop abortion
Author	Ombree123
Upvotes	149
Comments	128
Date	February 23, 2021 9:08 PM UTC (5 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/comments/lqt3xv/men_to_be_able_to_stop_abortion/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/men-to-be-able-to-stop-abortion.1061864 https://theredarchive.com/post/1061864

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