What is the difference between the men drawn to feminsm and those drawn to the MRM?

Leinadro · 2020-09-28T04:46:01+00:00

I think men go one way or the other based on how they come to understand the issues that men face and how we are treated by society.

To me feminism and the MRM both recognize that men are mistreated by society and want to fix those things but differ in the initial assessment of how things came to be how they are (which of course influences how those things can be fixed).

Men drawn to feminism seem to come to the conclusion, one way or another, that men themselves are the problem. As in men are getting in their own way when it comes to prospering. That men who are harmed are just suffering backlash of a system that was supposedly meant to favor men.

Men drawn to the MRM seem to come to the conclusion, one or another, that society itself has it in for men. As in men are being ground up by a system that sees them as fuel for the machine. As the hardships that men go through are not a bug but are by design.

And I think what happens when one crosses the isle to the other is that they by some means come to the conclusion that the other side is actually right and they have "seen the light" so to speak.

skysinsane · 2020-09-28T03:50:16+00:00

In my experience there aren't a lot of dudes drawn to feminism. They tend to be bathed in it from early in their lives. They are told that feminism is the right thing all their lives. They want to do the right thing, so they are feminist.

most mras are just the next step. They start noticing the flaws in feminism. They bring it up, and the feminists around them dismissively call them an mra. The man is confused and bothered, so they look up mras. They find that some of the points hit home. They start questioning.

They bring their questions to a feminist they trust. The feminist gets upset and scared to find out that her good male feminist friend is secretly so sexist.

The man now feels betrayed by feminism, and enlightened by the mrm. A new member has been born

Forgetaboutthelonely · 2020-09-28T08:16:40+00:00

A common thread you'll find even in these comments is that many on the mrm "Side" started as staunch feminists. Then they were exposed to "real" institutional feminism and found nothing but anger and shunning when they brought it up.

Enzi42 · 2020-09-28T10:13:07+00:00

I feel like I have more of an insight into how male feminists come to be than I do MRAs so I think I will talk about them.

Secondly, assume the best possible faith in your ideological outgroup. I'm not looking for "because they don't actually care about men and just want to (take away women's rights/impress women with how feminist they are)." I'm interested in why people who genuinely see something wrong with how men are treated by society and want it to change end up entrenched in such different ideological camps.

As a disclaimer, I am going to include the "they don't care about men" accusation but it is only a facet of my argument and I am only assigning that sentiment to a certain category of people.

With that out of the way, I believe that men drawn to feminism come in several strains.

Go With The Flow: I have the best insight on these types since I was at one point one of them until becoming more politically and socially conscious. These men don't actually have any ideological leanings (or at least very little) and simply accept the social narrative that is given to them. If the narrative they receive growing up is pro-feminism then they will simply view it as the way of the world and not question it, since they are too busy going about their day-to-day lives. To clarify these people maybe aren't even male feminists at all, just people following what they way they've been raised.

The Hunchbacked Soldier: If you aren't familiar, I'll start off by explaining this is a reference to the movie 300 wherein a deformed and hunchbacked soldier is mocked and ridiculed by the cast for his genuine attempt to join his fellow Spartans, with disastrous results. Anyway, this type of male feminist is one that I have seen several times. They are men who fall outside the norms of "traditional" masculinity and find themselves suffering for it.

Perhaps they are called "sissy" or "gay" or just overall made miserable by their peers, parents and other important figures for being different and not following the behaviors assigned to his gender identity. This can cause hurt, bitterness and anger. This can then manifest in two ways. Some of these "Hunchbacked Soldiers" join feminism when they see the advertisement that the movement seeks to abolish gender roles and norms and simply let everyone live as they will. This appeals to them since it would mean they wouldn't be made to suffer anymore and neither will others like them. They want to see a world in which men can simply be considered whole and complete people with their own likes and dislikes and ways of practicing masculinity without being censured and attacked for not "doing it right".

Others take a darker, actually more 300-esque route and bitterly cling to feminism's truly heinous statements about men and masculinity because it matches their experiences with it, and I do think they get a sick catharsis out of being able to express hatred and disdain for people who tormented them or just people who share the traits of their former tormentors. I actually read someone explaining that this was why he was pushed into feminism and why he had no interest in the MRM since he associated other men with teasing and suffering. He had no interest in being an advocate for his own gender and preferred women.

The Hero: These are almost the exact opposite of the "Hunchbacked Soldier" but they end up in a similar place. The Hero is a traditionalist at heart despite what he may say or even think. The Hero acknowledges that men have issues that need to be fixed and has perhaps even experienced or suffered them himself. However he believes that however bad men have it, women have it a thousand times worse. He may not approve of men-centered movements, not because he thinks they are inherently misogynistic but because he sees them as "unsporting" like giving an already powerful runner an even bigger boost over a lagging opponent. He may join feminism because he thinks that it is only right for a man to fight for women and tend to his needs/the needs of his gender second.

This male feminist is the type to mock MRAs by using shaming language based around masculinity such as "Man up" and "You're supposed to be a man. What about protecting your sister/mother/female loved one?" I have encountered these people before and it can be infuriating to try to talk to and reason with them due to their acknowledgement of a problem but limited capacity for empathy for other men. The Hero actually represents a men's issue that is brought up a lot---lack of empathy for men's problems both by women and worst of all by other men ourselves.

This is not to say The Hero does not care about other men; he does. But he cares about other men on a case-by-case basis. He may want to aid his friends who are depressed or suffering a nasty divorce or in the grips of some other men's issue. But he will do it alone or with a small group of other friends. The idea of gathering a large group of men to aid as a gender group will always seem distasteful to him.

The Defector: The darkest version of a male feminist and the diseased counterpart of The Hero. How these come to be is oddly a combination of all of the three I've posted above if you've read that far. The Defector is basically just a male misandrist. These come in two subtle types---some believe that men are the bane of women's existence and have been an oppressor class for all of time. However he thinks that he and others like him are "good ones" who have broken away from this evil conglomerate and are fighting the good fight. Others have the same beliefs but rather than thinking of themselves as "good ones", they see themselves as irreparably "sinful" for things they have done in the past or simply for being born men in a sexist society. So they eternally work to balance their inherent debt.

They have zero interest in helping men and in fact tend to shy away from other men or just tolerate them in day-to-day life. There are many words for these types but I try to stay away from them because they amount to playground insults when "traitor" would simply suffice.

While other examples may feel some solidarity with their gender, The Defector has the opposite. Some of the most vile anti-male rhetoric that you will find has actually come from the mouths of these men.

While trying to stay within the bounds of civility, I will say this now--I hate these types with a passion and I would have no problem if every single one of them just disappeared from this world. They are a cancer on the face of the male gender and I genuinely don't think this type can be reached or reasoned with.

EDIT: Thanks so much for the silver award. This is the first time in my six years using reddit that I've ever gotten anything like this!

GaborFrame · 2020-09-28T09:20:18+00:00

Very good question. Myself, I tried to become a feminist because I thought it was the only ethical thing to do. However, the cover of "we're just fighting for equality" was so obviously transparent due to all the casual man-hating and the complete unfalsifiability of their theories that I just could not do it.

Does this mean that male feminists (or feminists in general) lack critical thinking skills? No. I think you "grow" into a certain culture and by that, you learn that some "truths" should not be questioned.

PrincessofPatriarchy · 2020-09-28T11:34:01+00:00

Before joining Reddit my main men's rights platform was on Quora. I knew several male feminists on Quora, of various kinds. There was not really one "male feminist" individual. There were some male feminists who were extremely kind and recognized what I was saying. There were some male feminists who were extremely antagonistic towards me. Some were my followers and we chatted often. Others had me blocked and made passive-aggressive posts about my content. There wasn't a one size fits all "male feminist".

Now, I obviously don't have the kindest impressions about the male feminists who blocked me or were antagonistic so I will try and refrain from guessing their feelings and beliefs. What I will say is that they did appear very genuine in their desire to help women.

Of the male feminists I had a good relationship with they often shared some broad things in common:

They were liberal
They wanted to participate in women's rights as well as men's rights advocacy
They believed feminism was imperfect but the best there was available for men's rights

The most common criticism I heard of the men's rights movement was that MRA's spend more time complaining about women or about feminism than taking active steps to improve the lives of men. Male feminists would point at the few things feminism has done to improve men's rights (like removing the requirement that rape victims be female from the definition of rape) as proof of this.

They often associated MRA's with either being right-wing or being trad-cons. Some of the male feminists I knew had been victims of abuse by other women. They said that when they entered spaces like MGTOW they were derided for allowing a woman to beat them. One also experienced plentiful amounts of homophobia that drove him away.

On the other hand, they felt that feminist spaces were much more accepting and tolerant of them and their experiences and did not force traditional expectations of masculinity upon them. None of them thought feminism was perfect and all of them agreed with me that it needed to do better about addressing men's issues but they felt it was doing better than any other movement.

Of the male feminists I did not get along with, I would say that they staunchly agreed with feminism and believed that I was just a "pickme".

Reddit actually appears to have a different demographic of feminists. I see a lot more of what I may call self-loathing male feminists here. Men who seem to feel immense feelings of guilt for fairly benign things (see some menslib posts) and who seem to believe men are everything that is wrong with the world. It saddens me.

wazzup987 · 2020-09-28T03:04:10+00:00

Self respect

matrixislife · 2020-09-28T07:00:54+00:00

Overall, Mra are more evolved. There's a lot of people in the MRA sub who are ex-feminists, who have seen the inequalities that men are subjected to.

They are naturally drawn to addressing faults in society, so they originally become feminists, that being the biggest all-encompassing organisation for such activities. then they see the faults in feminism, so move away to the MRA structure.

Give them time, and there'll be a bunch of feminists we are arguing with nowadays who will become MRA in the future.

As for people struggling with gender roles, I can't really speak for that.

BannanasAreEvil · 2020-09-28T17:07:21+00:00

One side thinks men are to blame for all of the issues plaguing both men and women. The other thinks both sides share blame and many social standards have been influenced by both men and women to serve as advantages for both men and women.

Feminism will blame every issue facing men as toxic masculinity and or the patriarchy. This absolves women of all blame and allows complete victim hood status. Some portions of the MRA believe the exact opposite, that women are solely to blame for issue involving men and women.

I believe a middle ground exists that both men and women share the blame for our society and both men and women need to work together to fix it. We can't work together if we constantly blame 1 half of our population for all the ills of it while victimizing the other half. Both sides need support and understanding, I can't be a feminist because it forces all the blame onto men; even when the cause is perpetrated by women themselves onto other women, with a simple hand wave it becomes something men caused therefore absolving responsibility.

I'm teaching my sons to respect everyone, not just women. To treat everyone equal and treat others how they themselves would like to be treated. Most importantly I'm trying to teach them how to avoid manipulation by their peers, society and the like. They need a fundamental understanding of how to look at facts and derive an opinion based on them. It starts at an early age where you question things along with them and teach them how to think critically.

Jakeybaby125 · 2020-09-28T06:23:52+00:00

IMO, male feminists are only male feminists because they either want to get laid or they've bought into the lies feminism has told them time and time again. I was in the latter category until last year. Now I'm a proud MRA

Super_Boredom · 2020-09-28T11:25:13+00:00

When I was a freshman in college, I had bought into the #MeToo and #BelieveWomen dogma wholesale and probably could have been called a radical male feminist. After being falsely accused of sexual assault, I felt like my whole belief structure was shattered. I began furiously poring over redpill, then blackpill websites and grew a case of extreme misogyny. I have since examined that newfound disdain for women, and am trying to correct, and realign my views with reality. I'm not a feminist, not an MRA, because I don't think identity politics are very useful most of the time. I try to treat everyone equally now, although I am a little distrustful of women still. I'm getting better , though.

SchalaZeal01 · 2020-09-30T13:26:22+00:00

I reject labels, since I've found that people will come in with all kinds of assumptions about your views and positions if you use one. I used to want to find my 'niche', but you end up having to defend people who you don't agree with because they're "part of your team", or you have to No True Scotsman them out of existence.

There's times in my life where I gravitate more towards feminism, and there have been times in my life where I've felt frustrated, misunderstood, or antagonized by people flying this banner and searched for other spaces to ventilate this, such as this one.

I also want to emphasize that I think people, whatever label they use, are individuals, and one feminist is not another one, similar with MRAs, egalitarians or whatever you wanna call it. However, when they're part of a group, people have a tendency to see the nuances and differences within their own 'group' while treating the other 'group' as one monolith, so that each individual member has to justify themselves for the wrongdoings of another.

So I think I can talk about what things draw me to one side or the other:

I felt drawn to feminism, because I value equality and the popular "feminism is about equality".

(One time, I was having a long conversation with one feminist who was well-versed in the underlying theory. They ended up saying something along the lines of that it's not really about equality as such, that that is just the simplified version used as a popular slogan. They also said something along the lines of women's rights and men's rights being, in many cases, a zero-sum game, despite the popular slogans saying they're not. However, I've found there are many factions within feminism, and many self-proclaimed feminists who hold very different sets of beliefs, and I believe a lot of them to be genuinely interested in equality and to care about men.)

Furthermore, I like women and I wanted to understand their problems. The idea that men had male-specific problems wasn't really something that had occured to me. Sure, individual men can have individual problems, but as a group?

Also, I learned through popular culture and pop history that feminists had fought for the right for women to vote, abortion rights, etc. All things I support, of course. The idea is that "feminists" (the pop history never went into more detail than that) were on the right side of history every time. That's a very powerful idea, because then if you question anything a particular feminist says, you feel like you're impeding societal progress.

Also, there's a big social pressure nowadays to adhere to the set of ideas that can be referred to "intersectionality" or derisively "wokeism", if you want to hang out with and be accepted by an educated, cultured, young, liberal/socialist/left-leaning/progressive crowd. It kinda depends on the social environment you're in, but it's become more notable in the last decade, and it's leaked out into real life more and more the past few years.

The intersectionality doctrine comes with its own set of jargon and ideas. Basically, things that used to be mocked by obscure Youtube channels are now commonplace and accepted as knowledge that is part of an explanatory model that is purported to make perfect sense of our world. Microaggressions, mansplaining, manterrupting, etc. Words and concepts like cisheteropatriarchy aren't just confined to gender studies texts as one of the possible lenses that you can interpret the world through, but they leak into other domains of life, like official documents by the American Psychological Association. What used to be considered heavily politicized language is now injected into the mainstream discourse as the simple, self-evident truth, like saying the Earth orbits the Sun.

Some feminists would say that the fact we live in a cisheteropatriarchy is not politicized, that it's the undeniable truth and that anyone who says it isn't is a denialist or just doesn't understand the concept. But there are bona fide feminists as well who believe that 'patriarchy' is not the best or most accurate way the caracterize the kind of society and environment we live in (and I'm not talking about the ones like Christina Hoff Sommers, who are dismissed out of hand because they've spent most of their career criticizing feminism). These feminists also note how the meaning of patriarchy and how it is used has shifted considerable throughout the years. Personally, I consider it a semantic sleight of hand.

In any case, the pressure to accept the framing, worldview and explanatory model of intersectionality as The Correct One (not merely one of the many models that can be used to explain reality) is there. In some circles, not doing so is almost tantamount to being anti-vaxx or a Flat Earther. So that is a very powerful reason to keep up with what feminists (or at least, a particular kind of feminists) are saying.

In summary, a large part of it has to do with how culture war bullshit has progressively infected more and more domains of life, especially online where it's become more and more difficult to just discuss hobbies and interests without being caught up in some SJW vs. Alt-Right bullshit where you're forced to pick a side.

I agree with feminists (the "men have problems too" kind) on many things, including:

advocating for equal paid parental leave (I believe they don't emphasize it as much as they could, but most do support it.) I think this would do a lot to combat bias against women in the workplace while also combating bias against men in a caretaking / nurturing role, swatting two flies at the same time.
the importance of combating sexual harassment, the importance of consent, and transforming sexual culture so that people (and women in particular) feel more comfortable. Questioning toxic parts of the culture, like treating your sexual partners like adversaries or mere notches on bedposts.
the importance of combating intimate partner violence
recognizing how overly strict gender roles lead to a lot of pain and stifle people and cause problems for both men and women
being against slut-shaming
reproductive rights, highlighting and fighting against some of the archaic laws that are being pushed in some conservative states in the Southern U.S. etc.
being for LGBT rights
sex worker rights
Criticizing "boys don't cry" and other macho bullshit.

However, I've often felt frustrated and uneasy in these spaces as well due to some feminists exhibiting the following attitudes:

The overuse of terms like 'emotional labor', stretching it to the point of meaninglessness.
People consistently downplaying concerns about possible negative effects of social media mob justice. The notion that losing one's reputation, friends and job is "not that bad".
Some activists undermining basic principles like the presumption of innocence to the point that feminist law professors have to jump in and point out that they're going too far.
Downplaying any concerns about false accusations by manipulating statistics and demonizing those who have such concerns as misogynists. Not recognizing how soul crushing such an accusation can be.
an overly rigid, binary worldview where men are the oppressors and women the oppressed. Framing every issue in such a way that men are the ones with all the power and women are powerless victims.
Everything is looked at through a lense of a power struggle between groups, with the weight of "historical oppression" deciding the morality of a given encounter. (A slight jab at a person of the 'victimized' group carries the weight of centuries' oppression with it, while anything you do to a person of the 'privileged' group can't be anything but a mere scratch.)
The above mentality leads to a very paranoid, stifling atmosphere. I've seen MensLib regulars post about how they feel guilty about being sexually attracted to women and wanting a sexual or romantic partner because they don't want to be "entitled" to women's bodies, affection, emotional labor etc. They feel guilty about wanting to ask out women, because to potentially induce a little discomfort or awkwardness in a woman, would mean contributing to women's ongoing oppression. The spaces they're in promote a constant monitoring of their own thoughts to look for 'incel-like' thoughts and behaviors.
The way in which a lot of MensLib posters describe the current reality seems more like they're describing 1950 than 2020, which makes it hard for me to relate. It could be down to their own social environment, so I'll cut them some slack for this.
Criticism of positive discrimination being taboo.
The notion that 'safe spaces' that specifically exclude cis men (in contexts outside of abuse shelters for battered women) are necessary, desirable, inclusive, or acceptable, and not discriminatory. Reinforcing the idea that cis men are a danger to others, predators, etc.
Uncritical acceptance of language that generalizes (cis) men. Condoning the treatment of males as a monolithic group, the idea that even the 'good men' are to be held accountable for the behavior of bad men. Unironic use of "poisoned skittles"-type logic that right-wingers use when talking about muslims and black people.

xenodroid80 · 2020-09-28T15:54:43+00:00

Very often they seem to be starting at the same point.

I started out with a very by-the-dictionary-definition understanding of feminism and so it seemed a natural component to my overall interest in humanism and egalitarianism.

Eventually the “red pills” just kept piling up to the point they couldn’t just be ignored or dismissed as exceptions. So then I was drawn to the MRM.

After a while I got tired of the tradcon and right wing men and women who seemed to be Co-opting the MRM to their own ends, so I settled at where I am now, somewhere between feminism and awareness of men’s issues. That initial anger at feeling lied to by feminism can provide a real high, but once it wears off, one starts to see just as many problems with the MRM

Blauwpetje · 2020-09-28T17:27:25+00:00

Actually, as a person I have always been drawn to feminism with just a few doubts. The reason I prefer the MRM now has less to do with a certain character trait than with getting to know the truth (although it is of course also a character trait to strife after that).

goldenjuniper · 2020-09-28T04:32:55+00:00

I think men that are drawn to feminism are typically unmasculine and have largely been excluded from men's "locker rooms" for lack of a better term. They feel more at home in a feminist space because feminists are better at fighting for marginalized men. I don't think they really feel like they even belong to men, or are ashamed to be one.

A traditionally masculine man will typically gravitate to the MRM because he sees all the ills and flat out discrimination and the lies that the feminists have gotten into the mainstream social consciousness that are actively harming men and boys. Feminism is very destructive to boys and men that follow more traditional masculine roles. They have made us the enemy and we can see it getting worse.

DMP1391 · 2020-09-28T04:53:16+00:00

Most male feminists are just sex-starved betas who are acting on the instinctive idea that agreeing with women will make them want to sleep with them.

Moronic-Simpleton · 2020-09-28T03:58:52+00:00

I thought you were going to ask what the difference was between feminist men and MRA women. They’re both said to lack self-respect by the opposite party, they’re either "soyboys" or "pickmes".

Melthengylf · 2020-09-28T15:57:31+00:00

I think it is mainly culture, menslibers have usually a social network that is feminist and more left-wining, while MRAs usually have a social network that is more antifeminist and right-leaning.

Blutarg · 2020-09-28T14:19:04+00:00

Individuals with autism typically have difficulties in verbal and non-verbal communication, social interactions, and leisure or play activities. It's pretty amazing that you can diagnose those traits just by reading people's posts on Reddit.

czerdec · 2020-09-29T21:05:12+00:00

Testosterone levels. MRM types have typically-male levels of testosterone. I am guessing, though I'd bet $100 on it in a heartbeat.

Title	What is the difference between the men drawn to feminsm and those drawn to the MRM?
Author	ParanoidAgnostic
Upvotes	60
Comments	58
Date	September 28, 2020 2:53 AM UTC (5 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/comments/j148d0/what_is_the_difference_between_the_men_drawn_to/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/what-is-the-difference-between-the-men-drawn-to.1062756 https://theredarchive.com/post/1062756

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