9 in 10 Job-Related Fatalities Men, Swedish Authorities Blame 'Macho Culture'

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We've got plenty of garbage men onboard, let's get some garbage women in there. Some female construction workers. And we need more female landscapers too!

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You're doing the very same thing you're accusing someone else of doing.

If you're going to focus on mining, at least back up your claims -- safety in that industry has increased. However risks can only be minimised. They can't be eliminated.

Given the gender discrepancy, the claim is a jump (this is occurring because of x). Either way, this comes across similar to Theory X (it's substantiated by the amount of work place fatalities due to dangerous jobs being undertaken by men).

How about doing something called 'research'. I've found the fatality figures to make it easier for you.

https://www.av.se/globalassets/filer/statistik/arbetsmiljostatistik-dodsolyckor-i-arbetet-kon-tabeller-1955-2017.pdf

If you go purely by the figures, work place fatalities have drastically decreased in the past fifty years. So why focus on the past ten years (the Swedish Work Environment Authority hasn't provided any insight as to why that decade is the focus of the report and how it differs from previous decades).

https://www.av.se/press/nio-av-tio-anstallda-som-dor-i-en-arbetsolycka-ar-man/

PS the figures from 1994 relate to the sinking of the MS Estonia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MS_Estonia

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The point is that some make these jobs more dangerous for themselves for the sake of bravado.

Honestly? I 100% agree. I'm a full time woodworker, I mostly build crates, occasionally drawing up & building jigs, molds, forms, tables, shelves, setups (etc) for the other manufacturing departments. I literally wear a blue collar uniform - two sets of navy blue coveralls, and two sets of navy blue pants / powder blue shirts. I'm as "blue collar" as it gets.

The honest truth is that a lot of guys at work really are overly macho, deciding to muscle through something the hard way, rather than taking a moment to think of an easier way to accomplish the task - trying to be the tough guy, always trying to cowboy through it. Every single week I watch one of our tablesaw operators handbomb skids of plywood onto his set of shelves one sheet at a time, picking up every single individual sheet of plywood, walking them over to the shelves, and painstakingly sliding them up by hand, one at a time, just because he doesn't want to go through the hassle of letting me or one of the other forklift drivers slide the skid of plywood in for him - because that involves a process of sitting the tip of the skid into the shelves, and slowly sliding it in as you cut the straps and breakdown the skid. It means asking someone for help, and blocking one of the aisles for about 10 minutes, whereas he can do it solo by hand without asking for help, and without blocking any aisles.

Almost nobody at our factory stretches at work - of all the work buddies I've got back there, I only know of a couple who stretch before work - people look at me weird when they see me doing stretches on break. For this reason I feel pressured into only doing the most basic stretches - there's no way I'm going to get on the ground to properly stretch out my spine and hips with all the guys walking around. It's an honest problem for me; I have a physically demanding job, I try to take care of my body, I don't want to get early onset arthritis or a herniated disk - I'm consciously aware that my stretching regiment is an important part of maintaining healthy joints at work, but I'm limited to only being able to do my full stretches at home, and just basic stretches at work.

It turns out something as simple as taking a minute to stretch can start all kinds of stupid yoga rumors.

It has nothing to do with feminism

In the context of this article being posted on this sub it does, as well in the context of feminist campaigns for equality. They campaign for equality in boardrooms and STEM careers, but when it comes to equality in the factory and the construction site? They scoff at the concept of equality.

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[–]Jex117 10 points11 points12 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Got any old guys at your factory? If none then you should straight up be thinking of a different line of work at some point. The amount of old guys in a given sector is a good measure of how your body will holdup in that line of work - if every task you do throughout the day is working you to the bone, and you don't see any old guys in that line of work, you might want to think about how long your spine and shoulders are going to holdup, how much of your body you're willing to sacrifice to your company.

In that I like to tackle products with utmost efficiency, and sacrifice 4000 calories (metaphor) to get something done in 20 minutes when I could spend 1000 calories getting it done in four hours.

It goes both ways. Sometimes it's quicker just to muscle through a task the hard way, sometimes it's quicker to do a little setup. Keep in mind I work in a factory of about 150 guys and only about 6 forklift operators. Every single day we've got guys taking significantly more time to do something the hard way, when they could simply walk up to me and ask me to use the forklift. We've got specialized lifting cradles for the forks so I can do all kinds of precision maneuvers during our manufacturing processes - yet we've still got tons of guys who'd rather waste time doing it the hard way than simply getting a forklift to do it.

Bravado gives some people meaning in life, it's a responsibility. It's a way one monkey, so to speak, makes himself useful to another monkey.

Bravado in your 20's isn't worth shit when you spend your 30's, 40's, 50's, 60's, 70's, and 80's in endless pain.

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Source for those studies? I'm calling bullshit. As that is just too convenient to throw out and not source.

One thing that is interesting. We don't see a split in jobs like construction when looking at undeveloped, or less developed nations. It isn't until we look at developed nations that this split begins. Not only that, but the more a nation does to fix gender issues, the bigger the divide gets. Look at scandanavian countries. They are arguably the most gender neutral, feminist friendly, places on earth. Yet, they have the biggest divide between men and women in careers and job choices. Why do you suppose that is?

The best explanation I have heard. Is that when you remove everything in the cultural or social way of things. All that is left is the biological aspects, and they maximize, they do not simply go away. That is why in places like Norway, since gendered legislation was introduced, the gap in STEM favoring men did NOT shrink. It grew, and correlated almost perfectly with the legislation. So, when I hear a feminist say we need to be more like these other feminist promoting nations because it will help with things like women getting into male dominated careers. I laugh. If we do what those nations have done, the gap will grow, not shrink. Again, because the only factor that remains to be expressed, is pure biology.

I would love to hear your take on this. As whenever I try talking to a feminist about it, they either get angry, or simply dissappear and the conversation never happens.

This is a glaring problem with feminism. It would appear, per hard data, that the more feminist a nation becomes, the worse the issues get that they claim to be trying to fix. http://www.thejournal.ie/gender-equality-countries-stem-girls-3848156-Feb2018/h

[–]TracyMorganFreeman 56 points57 points58 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

There are studies in which women have tried to work in trades but have been harassed or discriminated against to the point where they’ve left. Stop acting like this is totally one sided because it’s not.

Weird since I've worked in several trades and women are coddled by management for fear of looking sexist, leading to resentment.

The reality is the men don't care if you're a woman. They care if you can do the job and are held to the same standards, neither of which happen to the same degree for men in those trades are.

It's the majority of feminists who create this self inflicting sense of victimhood where women feel the only reason they aren't succeeding is sexism, when it's usually just their own failings.

An easy example is when a feminist sociologist, thinking there was bias against women in interviews set out an experiment using voice modulation software and phone interviews. Men were made to sound like women and vice versa.

The result? Similar failure rates, but the male candidates kept trying and eventually got better at interviewing, where the women gave up early.

Stop infantilizing women and teaching them that the world is against them when it isn't handed to them on a silver platter.

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I work in a largely male dominated heavy engineering job. You get dirty, hot and it's physically hard work. The women in there are mainly apprentices, so are young attractive ladies. The main ethos I pick up from them is "I'm here for a trade and once I qualify, I'm moving to the office work", which is where the most money can be earned. In terms of numbers, I'd say 95% of the female apprentices do this. There are zero apprentice caulkers because that's the dirtiest, noisiest trade. It's common knowledge in my work that this is what happens when they qualify in their trade. But god forbid you call them out on it.

A new Managing Director actually went undercover (posing as a regular worker) and actually found an apprentice painting her nails on a job. She said it took her 45mins. He didn't fire her, but fired 3 welders who had been sat in a break room for an hour.

It's so deeply ingrained.

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They aren’t harassed or discriminated against more than men. These are difficult, uncomfortable sometimes dangerous jobs. No one really wants to do them. Everyone is harassed so that everyone does their part. If a man sees another man being lazy he’ll say something like “cmon you fucking pussy, get your hands out of your pockets and stop fucking me.” This is what it takes to motivate people to do difficult work like this. But if you say that to a woman, she runs off to HR.

I’m serious, go grab an 80# hunk of steel and hump it up a few ladders. That shit hurts and not in damaging way, just because working that hard hurts. No one wants to do it, it fucking hurts. You have to force people to do it. But women have an easy out, they can run to HR. This is not because women are lazy, it’s because people are lazy. Men do this same shit when given the opportunity. But men have a lot less ways to be lazy.

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Our ruling party has a social secretary minister (not sure if that’s the right title) who tweeted that men should probably not be able to vote when Trump was elected. This was ignored thanks to two things:

1) she’s a woman and female macho culture against men is appropriated in Sweden.

2) two of her colleagues who are not as far up in the hierarchy, called here a whore on camera.

The outcome was that they were immediately fired (good. you should never call anyone names, and you should definitely act maturely if you’re part of a government) but she wasn’t even questioned.

Another runner up party (not enough votes, yet, thankfully) is a party called feminist initiative, which is a far left, feminist, party.

I read their manifest, which basically says everything socialistic or even part communistic you thought they’d say, but men are ALWAYS the cause of something bad and should be re-taught to not rape, respect, etc., etc.

The regular radical feminist jabber.

No information ANYWHERE on what men do or how to fix society besides pushing men to the side and letting women and lbtq+-people have more rights than what they currently have.

There is no men’s rights according to them. Instead we’re invited to host our own guy dinners where we should talk about social issues, how to NOT rape, how to respect ourselves and women around us.

There is no word, whatsoever, about women who talk badly about men, EDIT: or rape, abuse, domestic violence, because it’s appropriated as empowering and it’s used to “crush the patriarchy”, as if the patriarchy is always bad, until said women feel all sides of equality.

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Chris Benoit

Christopher Michael Benoit (21 May 1967 – 24 June 2007) was a Canadian professional wrestler. During his 22-year career, Benoit worked for numerous promotions including the World Wrestling Federation/World Wrestling Entertainment (WWF/WWE), World Championship Wrestling (WCW), Extreme Championship Wrestling (ECW), and New Japan Pro-Wrestling (NJPW). Industry historian Dave Meltzer considered him "one of the top 10, maybe even the top 5, all-time greats".

Benoit held 22 championships between WWF/WWE, WCW, NJPW, and ECW. He was a two-time world champion, having been a one-time WCW World Heavyweight Champion, and a one-time World Heavyweight Champion in WWE; he was booked to win a third world championship at a WWE event on the night of his death.

[+]ASexual-Buff-Baboon1 points 8 years ago [recovered] (5 children) | Copy Link

Dude in Australia killed his family then himself recently

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Only death and taxes are 100%

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Im on strike. Grab a sign. Beers in the cooler.

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It doesn't matter about the 4100 federal funded sites, point is their management is accountable for health and safety. North America is the worst country for workers safety in the OECD, Canadas record is the worst. Safety isn't paramount, productivity is and unless that changes you're always going to have management telling people to be risky. And the make bravado going for it, because we are willing to take a risk or worried about losing our jobs to provide. I can literally tell my supervisor to go fuck himself if he asks me to do anything I seem to be remotely risky. I was formally trained in OH&S recently I can even shutdown the entire site, this is what holds management accountable. Upper managements first question at anyeeting is health and safety.

Yes we still make a profit, actually running at 22% GP at the moment. Changing attitudes has actually saved money.

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Yes, men are willing to take risks I wouldn't say it's macho culture just the way we are. Safety changes need to take place and point it out. There have been lives lost in the last few weeks in the state I live in. A trench engulfed two young apprentice plumbers, and a truck that was mechanically unsafe was used to deliver an overly large load down a slope and crushed the driver. These we're choices made by management and someone not willing to have an argument with their boss, did what they were told and paid the price. Now safety is pushed and pushed and the government has a bill floating at present and if it passes that if gross neglegance like the stories above are founded, the manager/supervisor will be charged with manslaughter and serve jail time. The fines have not been a big enough deterant in the eyes of the safe. Our workplace incidents are the lowest in the country, yet first state to potentially enforce such laws.

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Right, because working a hard physically demanding job means it's your own fault you died.

Nah, failing to wear your safety equipment, failing to seek medical attention for injuries that aren't immediately threatening, failing to ask for help on jobs that you can struggle through on your own, toughing it out when you're sick or tired and in no condition to be operating heavy machinery, and other such bullshit means its your own fault you died, or ended up killing one of your coworkers who was depending on you.

Have you ever actually worked on the floor in an industrial capacity? Because the fact is they're absolutely right in pointing out that kind of shit is rampant unless the foreman makes a point of cracking down on it. And in my experience, the threat of heavy punishment isn't even half as effective as simply shaming that kind of idiocy for what it is.

Particularly when working with the apprentices. Whether they're fresh out of highschool or grown men starting a new career path, they're all like impressionable little ducklings who will go out of their way to follow whatever example they're given in order to best fit in.

If you give a shit about reducing workplace deaths and crippling injuries among men, then you need to suck it up and accept this regardless of how it makes you feel.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Nah, failing to wear your safety equipment, failing to seek medical attention for injuries that aren't immediately threatening, failing to ask for help on jobs that you can struggle through on your own, toughing it out when you're sick or tired and in no condition to be operating heavy machinery, and other such bullshit means its your own fault you died, or ended up killing one of your coworkers who was depending on you.

And the reason people do this is obviously toxic masculinity, not people being retards right? GTFO here.

According to your logic is more women got into that type of job there would be less fatalities because it is toxic masculinity causing all of this. No, I argue you would have many more fatalities, if not the same number. Why? Because most people don't follow instructions, no matter what their gender is. To blame this on the person's gender/sex is seriously disgusting and sexist.

[–]Pwner_Guy 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

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Where did I say that? I stated that a lot of the safety shit that we have to follow is due to the actions of people that likely shouldn't have been in that position in the first place.

There are many safety regulations that have good intentions but make doing work in a reasonable or otherwise safe manner impossible. If you follow every safety protocol for some procedures you're going to be in a huge rush and increase your chances of fucking up or injuring yourself.

The 15 minutes I save by not using the cage on the 20 ton press when doing wheel bearings is well worth the trade off of any potential injury. The cage around the air compressor belt is not worth the trade off required for servicing it. Using the safety stops on my hoist are well worth the .5 second trade off of not having a car crush me.

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[–]Zepherite 8 points9 points10 points 8 years ago (21 children) | Copy Link

Not sure why this sub would defend toxic masculinity if it

Erm, what?

No one is defending 'toxic masculinity'. You just made that up.

What people are doing is scoffing at feminists victim blaming. Men are dying, must be men's fault! Feminism's default is to roll its collective eyes from its desk jobs, tut and then pontificate, from its mountain of collective experience in dangerous fields, about how men bring this on themselves. I'm generalising of course, but it isn't far from the truth in the majority of cases about feminists. That's definitely feminists by the way, not women.

Except, no, it isn't toxic masculinity. These jobs we're talking about have health and safety standards that have to be followed or you get fired. There is little room for any 'toxic masculinity' that would put you at massive risk, at least not without a disciplinary. Men die in these jobs because they are inherently dangerous jobs. Dangerous jobs are dangerous? Who knew?

Do I think that there are never men who die needlessly and stupidly because of 'toxic masculinity'? No of course not. There are idiots in every field. But if you think fixing 'toxic masculinity' will even make the tiniest dent in the mortality rate in these fields, you are really only showing your own ignorance. There will always be idiots, both male and female.

Isn't the real problem that there aren't enough women in these jobs then?

Well no, because then you'd just have women dying too. The real problem is that these jobs are dangerous. The solution, therefore, is making them safer. That needs new tools, new machinery and new methods of manufacture that are safer. 'Toxic masculinity awareness training' isn't going to protect you when your equipment fails

Besides, women don't want to do these jobs and no, it's not because of men. If you plot 'the progressiveness' of a society against the gender disparity in jobs, you find that there is a positive correlation. Societies that are more free, have more highly gendered occupations than those with less freedom.

When you give women a choice, they choose not to do the dangerous jobs. It's obvious really. Why else do you think feminism generally asks for 'representation' in high paying office jobs but not in say, garbage collectors, itself a high paying job compared to others of a similar qualification level?

They made their way into medicine, which is no longer a male dominated field, just fine, so if women really want to, they clearly are more than capable of getting into any field. They've chosen not to go into these other fields.

In general, women clearly choose other jobs. So what are we going to suggest to fix this, so called problem? Do we force women to be sewer welders? To be brick layers? To maintain the power infrastructure? Because that's the only way we're going to get more women into these dangerous jobs.

Does it even need fixing? Can we not except that the genders make different choices and stop beating each other over the head for our own life choices? Because they do make different, gendered, choices. That's fact. From birth they react differently to different stimuli.

I tell you what isn't going to do it though. Listening to feminists waffle on about their boogeyman, toxic masculinity.

[–]Mewdig -3 points-2 points-1 points 8 years ago (20 children) | Copy Link

[–]Zepherite 7 points8 points9 points 8 years ago* (19 children) | Copy Link

Wierd how none of the comments reflect this.

Why would they? The other comments are responding to the article.

I was responding to you and you did somethong to the effect of 'isn't the problem that there aren't women in these fields'.

And I disagree.

What I did say is that the other comments are scoffing at the idea that 'toxic masculinity'. That seems to have slipped you mind though. Keep up.

Your comment has too much conjecture... I'm sure plenty of women..

Ah. Accuse someone of conjecture. Provide conjecture yourself. Classic.

No. It refers to things that are widely know and I didn't think referencing them was necessary. As in, why are you having a conversation about this stuff if you haven't done your due diligence? But here we go:

The gender equality paradox

http://www.thejournal.ie/gender-equality-countries-stem-girls-3848156-Feb2018/

This comment about women in society really doesn't have annyting to doe with the topic in hand.

Women make different choices in our society -> They don't choose dangerous fields -> Men die more in these fields

It's not difficult. Either you're an idiot or deliberately disingenuous. Which is it?

I'm sensing a lot of hate towards feminists.

Hate? Of Feminism in its 'academic' sense as opposed to the dictionary definition to which it bares no resemblance? Yes. Of women? No.

I mean, in the article, feninists are literally blaming men for their own deaths as they toil away doing jobs women do not want to do. It what way is that not contemptable?

Like they are a sports team made of clones.

Is gender studies not a course you can study at university? Have I imagined this?

If you're claiming that feminism doesn't have a shared system of beliefs that is held by the majority of feminists, you are being disingenuous.

I'm not sure what this has to do with men's rights to be honest?

How about enough respect not to be belittled for doing some of the most dangerous jobs? That might be nice.

[–]BigLebowskiBot 4 points5 points6 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Mewdig -3 points-2 points-1 points 8 years ago* (17 children) | Copy Link

Why would they? The other comments are responding to the article. I was responding to you and you did somethong to the effect of 'isn't the problem that there aren't women in these fields'. And I disagree. What I did say is that the other comments are scoffing at the idea that 'toxic masculinity'. That seems to have slipped you mind though. Keep up.

Hey mate, how about you answer my question instead of glossing over it and acting cocky, your insecurity is showing. Tell me WHY you disagree? "Try to keep up" lol.. How about you try to form a coherent argument instead of jumping from goalpost to goalpost.

Ah. Accuse someone of conjecture. Provide conjecture yourself. Classic. Besides, women don't want to do these jobs and no, it's not because of men. If you plot 'the progressiveness' of a society against the gender disparity in jobs, you find that there is a positive correlation. Societies that are more free, have more highly gendered occupations than those with less freedom. When you give women a choice, they choose not to do the dangerous jobs. It's obvious really. Why else do you think feminism generally asks for 'representation' in high paying office jobs but not in say, garbage collectors, itself a high paying job compared to others of a similar qualification level?

How is this not conjecture? You talk about all women once again like they all make the same choices, like no woman has every wanted to word in a male dominated field? But im guessing that makes it hard to argue that you guys are the victim of some feminist conspiracy right? Try to keep up.

Women make different choices in our society -> They don't choose dangerous fields -> Men die more in these fields. It's not difficult. Either you're an idiot or deliberately disingenuous. Which is it?

Its none of the above, you are the idiot. Holy shit, how are women not doing dangerous jobs just like men. Do you think construction is the only dangerous job in the world? Let me see some stats on how many women forced in to prostitution gets killed every year vs construction workers. Try to keep up.

Is gender studies not a course you can study at university? Have I imagined this? If you're claiming that feminism doesn't have a shared system of beliefs that is held by the majority of feminists, you are being disingenuous.

Do you mean like this sub and r/incels?

No but seriously you do realise you can be feminist and not act like american third wave radical feminists? You probably wont respond to this though because it requires you to understand its not that extreme of an opinion really.

The right not to be belittled for soing some of the most dangerous jobs? That might be nice. Jesus. Such ignorance.

Once again has nothing to do with mens rights. Is this really where you want to make a stand? Not like, actual mens rights issues?

[–]Zepherite 5 points6 points7 points 8 years ago* (12 children) | Copy Link

Tell me WHY you disagree.

Read. My. Comments. Are you illiterate?

You talk about all women

Nice try Cathy Newman. Stop. Just stop. You're trotting out the the old 'you talk about all women' argument. Nowhere have I said that. You. Are. Disingenuous.

If I have to explain to you why generalising is useful for identifying behaviourial trends when considering a large group of people, half the population, you're in trouble.

Did you read about the gender paradox? No. Because otherwise you would know this is true.

Do you mean like this sub and r/incels

What about the nazis? You forgot to compare the sub to them.

Do you think construction is the only job in the world?

CATHY NEWMAN STRIKES AGAIN!

Women, in general, do not choose dangerous jobs. If that wasn't the case, the argument that the mortality rate was due to toxic masculinity would never get of the ground because it would be affecting women too.

No but seriously you do realise that you can be a feminist and not act like american third wave feminists?

Oh absolutely. Christina Hoff Sommers is a fantastic feminist for an example. But, If you believe this is due to toxic masculinity you are a third wave feminist.

Is this where you make a stand?

Should I not call out bullshit when I see it or am I to remain silent? Idiot.

[–]AloysiusC 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]Mewdig 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]AloysiusC 5 points6 points7 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]Mewdig -2 points-1 points0 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Zepherite 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Mewdig 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]Zepherite 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago* (4 children) | Copy Link

Okay, so I had a look through your posts to see what point I could have left out.

There was only one:

Let me see some stats on how many women forced in to prostitution gets killed every year vs construction workers. Try to keep up.

I didn't respond to it initially because I couldn't believe you really wanted to go down that route. It's a logical fallacy to use specific examples to try and disprove things about the common behaviours of a population. Subjective situations cannot disprove generalisations. This is basic. I assumed it be must be some setup for some kind of gotcha because otherwise, it's somewhat of an own goal. But hey, you've not been the sharpest tool in the shed so far so I'll humour you.

So before I respond to it, I'll just reiterate the two assertions I've been making to explain why the OP has very little to do with 'toxic masculinity', as they seem to have given you some trouble:

Women, in general (not all women - this wouldn't need to be said if you could be trusted to argue in good faith), make different choices to men and this leads them to choose, again, in general, jobs that are less dangerous, as evidenced by the gender paradox. In general (Have I made that clear enough for you?)
Dangerous jobs are, self evidently, more dangerous and therefore have higher mortality rates.

Combine these together and you get higher mortality rates for men in the workplace.

Now with those in mind, let's address your assertion.

Let me see some stats on how many women forced in to prostitution gets killed every year vs construction workers. Try to keep up.

Forced? So they aren't choosing to go into that profession. How does this go against my assertion that women choose safer jobs (IN GENERAL, in general...) if they have to be forced to take more dangerous ones?

Forcing people to do jobs is terrible, isn't it? I think we can all agree on that.

However, unless you are about to claim that women, in general, aspire to be sex workers, and there is nothing necessarily wrong with that, then you are just proving my first assertion, not contradicting it.

Now let's get on to the stats themselves. I'm not going to look them up. I'm sure that the mortality rate is very high. Let's say it's higher than any job that a man does. A dangerous job has a high mortality rate? Colour me shocked. Could it be that it agrees with my second assertion, and once again proves my fucking point.

Now the situation with sex workers is terrible and needs to be sorted. You'll struggle to find someone on here is going to disagree with that.

Why don't we try and sort these issues in sensible ways and not blame the mortality rates on the people in these situations?

Or is it not possible to want to help sex workers and not blame mortality rates on 'toxic masculinity'?

[–]Mewdig -1 points0 points1 point 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

You arent saying anything. Its amazing, so much text and NO SUBSTANCE.

You have no point exept that my point is bullshit.

What do you want i dont understand? Are you FOR toxic masculinity or do you think it doesnt exist?

You debate like you only hang around kindergardeners wow. You cant make a point without some snarky insult its pathetic.

Women, in general (not all women - this wouldn't need to be said if you could be trusted to argue in good faith), make different choices to men and this leads them to choose, again, in general, jobs that are less dangerous, as evidenced by the gender paradox. In general (Have I made that clear enough for you?) Dangerous jobs are, self evidently, more dangerous and therefore have higher mortality rates. Combine these together and you get higher mortality rates for men in the workplace.

DUH, OF COURSE. But why is that? Could it be (shocker!) Toxic masculinity working both ways(whaaa??!?) and playing on the stereotype that men should be construction workers and girls should be nurses? You dont fucking talk about toxic femininity because women arent in charge, its white men like me, and im suspecting, you.

Now respond without strawmanning, i dare you.

[–]Zepherite 4 points5 points6 points 8 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

You arent saying anything. Its amazing, so much text and NO SUBSTANCE.

I bullet-pointed it for you. It's like you read, but the words just wash over you. You're either so ideologically brainwashed that you refuse to think for yourself, or idiotic enough that you can't. Or both. Feminism's perfect, useful idiot.

You have no point exept that my point is bullshit.

Apart from the fact that it isn't my only point (I bullet pointed them for you to make it easy), your rebuttal being bullshit would then leave my points unchallenged, yes. That's the way these things work. Did no one tell you?

What do you want i dont understand?

This makes no sense. Do you need to sit down?

Are you FOR toxic masculinity or do you think it doesnt exist?

Well first, tell me what you think toxic masculinity is. And I'll tell you whether I agree with it. We need to agree on terms before I can answer that.

However, the way it is used, regardless of the meaning, is a catch-all phrase to blame men for anything and everything negative that happens, by feminists in general.

You debate like you only hang around kindergardeners wow. You cant make a point without some snarky insult its pathetic.

Uh huh. Then leave. If I'm pathetic, I'm not worth your time. And so far, you've done nothing to suggest my arrogance isn't warranted.

DUH, OF COURSE. But why is that? Could it be (shocker!) Toxic masculinity working both ways(whaaa??!?)

Prove it. Prove that toxic masculinity is a significant contributing factor to the mortality rate. Go on. You're so clever. It should be easy. Otherwise, it's - what did you say before? - conjecture.

I've provided proof for mine. We know the gender gap gets bigger in more progressive societies. I provided a link. You can google it yourself if you want. We know dangerous jobs, by definition have higher mortality rates. It would, therefore, be weird if men, didn't have a higher mortality rate in the workplace.

Prove me wrong. Provide evidence that contradicts me. Prove yourself right. Provide data that shows 'toxic masculinity' is contributing factor. Of you pop. You can do it, slugger.

playing on the stereotype that men should be construction workers and girls should be nurses?

You're done. This is a smoking gun. Cathy Newman is your spirit animal. I never said or insinuated this.

Read this next bit slowly; Let it sink in and remember that every time you accuse me of something like this, you are showing everyone how dishonest you are: This is about personal choice, not what people should do but what they choose to do. Why can you not argue in good faith?

You dont fucking talk about toxic femininity because women arent in charge, its white men like me, and im suspecting, you.

I don't talk about 'toxic femininity' because I'm not blaming women for my problems like feminists blame men for theirs. I don't create nebulous concepts like 'patriarchy' with shifting definitions that are used to avoid responsibility for one's own actions. My choices are my own as are their consequences. It's a lesson that feminism has forgotten.

Note: pointing out the bullshit of feminism is not blaming women.

Now respond without strawmanning, i dare you.

This is the biggest projection I have ever seen.

These:

You talk about all women

Do you think construction is the only job in the world?

playing on the stereotype that men should be construction workers and girls should be nurses?

...are you straw-manning. Now, you show me where I misrepresented your argument. Off you go. I dare you.

[–]tmone 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]Mewdig -1 points0 points1 point 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]tmone 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Mewdig -1 points0 points1 point 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]AloysiusC 9 points10 points11 points 8 years ago (15 children) | Copy Link

[–]Mewdig -3 points-2 points-1 points 8 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link

[–]AloysiusC 4 points5 points6 points 8 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]Mewdig -3 points-2 points-1 points 8 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]AloysiusC 3 points4 points5 points 8 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

That is your problem, not mine.

It seems to be feminist's problem since they're often complaining about constantly having to explain the term. Given the trouble it gives them, you'd think they'd find another but something about it just makes them feel good I suppose.

What you are doing now is moving the goalpost.

No. I said from the beginning what I think the term means. Your response was effectively to say you mean something else. So I then told you to say that something else if that's what you really mean. Make up your mind.

Now that you know what i mean why dont you instead reply to my argument instead of bash on the terminology?

My reply was and is to ask you if you would use terms like "toxic femininity", "toxic blackness" or "toxic gayness"? If not, then why? If yes then why don't we see them used ever?

[–]Mewdig -1 points0 points1 point 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]AloysiusC 4 points5 points6 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]Mewdig -1 points0 points1 point 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]AloysiusC 5 points6 points7 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Probably because those categories relate to minorities in our society that arent as priviledged as white men are

Women are a majority and they're more privileged than men.

As a white man i wouldnt really feel comfortable talking about "toxic gayness" because i dont really relate or understand the issue on a level that would indicate that my opinion would be valuable to a discussion.

How does that not apply to women talking about toxic masculinity?

Also what has privilege got to do with it?

I do know toxic masculinity though which is why i choose to talk about it to other men. Sadly i think this sub is perpetually victimizing men

Here's the really fun cracker for you: Acknowledging men as vulnerable and acknowledging when they're victims is precisely the opposite of the traditionally masculine stereotype.

There's an incredibly sinister irony to feminists complaining about stereotypical masculinity or "macho culture" only to then go ahead and enforce exactly that by shaming men for having a "victim complex", using "male tears" mugs or making digs at "male fragility" or being unable to get laid etc.

[–]tmone 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]Mewdig -1 points0 points1 point 8 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]tmone 4 points5 points6 points 8 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Why should i? Im neither a woman or black.

did you not read my very next sentence and whole point???

i mean, if women can get away with talking about toxic masculinity, shouldnt you be able to talk about toxic blackness or toxic gayness? defend your logic.

speaking of the fallacy of disenfranchisement, i bet youre not so disciplined when it comes to other topics, say abortion, forieng military involvement, the trades, or any other topic you cant speak first hand experience from. So give me a break "I am neither a woman or black." naw youre just a lying hypocrite. are you going to sit there and tell me that you dont have ANY opinions on anything outside your experience??

defend your logic.

acting white.

black students devaluing school.

uncle tom accusations.

yeah, those are all primarily masculine traits. /

[–]Mewdig -2 points-1 points0 points 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]tmone 4 points5 points6 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]Mewdig -2 points-1 points0 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]tmone 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Title	9 in 10 Job-Related Fatalities Men, Swedish Authorities Blame 'Macho Culture'
Author	tttulio
Upvotes	1406
Comments	197
Date	June 2, 2018 8:31 PM UTC (8 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/8o3dnq/9_in_10_jobrelated_fatalities_men_swedish/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/9-in-10-job-related-fatalities-men-swedish.900224 https://theredarchive.com/post/900224

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feminineCulture