Alberta Student newspaper - "MRAs misunderstand feminism"

jolly_mcfats · 2013-01-25T06:32:03+00:00

Columns and websites that are misogynistic and openly anti-feminist plague the internet

and here the ~~newspaper~~ author misunderstands the MRM. Being critical of feminism is not misogynist. It's possible to be critical of feminism and not hate women. In fact, we're often told that feminism is about more than women.

In any event, the message is clear. If you don't support feminism, then we won't listen. Because feminism is more important than anything you have to say. Oddly enough, the fact that this article actually mentions men's rights issues, and acknowledges them, is a real step forward. I doubt the article would have been printed if the author wasn't so upset at the criticism of feminism.

pcarvious · 2013-01-25T07:59:21+00:00

so-called free speech

Is she huffing glue? Free speech is free speech. Just because it's "offensive" or you don't agree with it doesn't mean it's somehow not free speech.

advocating for men’s rights truly is an important cause — rates of suicide and homelessness are higher in men than women and rampant workplace injury and even death is a scary reality. As well, court cases typically see women gaining custody of children.

Okay, she has my attention again and seems to have stopped huffing the glue.

Take for example MRAs’ belief that male circumcision is wrong. Instead of explaining the issue and giving evidence to support their cause, they pose their argument as a response to feminists and the ‘double standard’ of female genital mutilation being illegal. One of these procedures can result in fatal hemorrhaging and infection, not to mention the complete removal of the individual’s ability to experience sexual pleasure. The other is an outdated practice that can lead to complications, but causes much less harm when compared to female circumcision.

Okay, I--wait...

but causes much less harm when compared to female circumcision.

Get a load of this guy.

These two aforementioned sites aren’t so much pro-men as they are anti-woman.

Again with the disagreeing with feminism = hating all women. Feh.

Anyways, that's enough of that.

PierceHarlan · 2013-01-25T12:54:44+00:00

I honestly don't know if I should be classified as an MRA since my blog, COTWA, also advocates for women who are wrongly accused. It is true, of course, that men have a monopoly on false accusations of heinous criminality, so I feel that it is appropriate for me to comment and post on this forum.

As for the article, I would respectfully suggest that I do not "misunderstand" feminism; but the feminist community does not understand, or care to understand, our efforts to give voice to the wrongly accused. My blog has received hateful notes from self-identified feminists, and it has been attacked on blogs that identify as feminist, for being "misogynistic" -- just because we have the audacity to give voice to a group of citizens who have been wrongly accused of heinous sex offenses. This is as dishonest as it is hurtful to our readers, many of whom have been badly hurt and have nowhere else to turn. We've received notes from young men to tell us our blog was important in keeping them from taking their own lives. Yet, for some hateful persons, one unfunded, overworked blog that gives voice to the wrongly accused is one blog too many.

Perhaps most disappointing is this: the feminist community has abandoned its alliance with progressive values by supporting The Obama administration's April 4, 2011 "Dear Colleague" letter, which lowered the standard of proof to find guilt in cases of sexual misconduct on campus to a mere "preponderance of the evidence." That mandate not only is an affront to the community of the wrongly accused because it makes it far too easy to punish the innocent for offenses they didn't commit, it also rolls back the due process rights of a class of citizens -- and the feminist community is just fine with that. The persons victimized by this rule are almost exclusively male, even though the laws are written in gender neutral terms.

Can you name me another instance where the due process rights of a group of citizens was rolled back in a significant and blatant manner, and a supposedly progressive group applauded it? Those who defend the "Dear Colleague" letter sweep over the rights of the presumptively innocent like a high-speed rail.

Some of those same progressives will read this comment and will roll their eyes at the very suggestion that a law affecting primarily young males is worthy of anyone's advocacy. That attitude itself is, of course, a betrayal of the principles of equal justice under law, and it evinces an unbecoming PC elitism that sadly flavors the efforts of too many self-identified feminists.

http://www.cotwa.info/

TracyMorganFreeman · 2013-01-25T12:46:29+00:00

It sounds like whining instead of advocacy. It sounds like tearing someone else down in hopes of building yourself up.

The irony. It burns.

...as though feminists are the ones causing the problems. The reality is that feminism is fighting for feminist’s goals and nothing more.

Oh an emotional appeal. Those two things aren't mutually exclusive, and there's a lazy/clever use of the word "the problems" to imply that MRAs claim feminism causes all of them, too.

It’s the anti-feminism perspective though that makes Men’s Rights Activism a farce. There’s a big difference between believing in your own values or championing free speech and going out of your way to hate on another group

"It's the anti-patriarchy/anti-traditionalism/anti-capitalism perspective that makes feminism a farce. There's a big difference between believing in your own values or championing free speech and hating on another group."

This person acts like feminism isn't guilty of the blame game, and that pointing out where a group has gone wrong is inappropriate.

Men’s rights activists, by all means fight for awareness about mental health, homelessness, work place injury and plenty of other real causes. Advocate for a healthy and equal society that recognizes — like feminists — the detriment of outdated models of gender relations or hate for any one group in society. But to do this you’ll have to stop blaming feminism for these problems. Realize that if you are working honestly toward social change, supporters will be there to help. And stop aligning yourself with ant-feminist websites. That’s a surefire way to see your goals and legitimacy go up in flames.

TL;DR: MRAs, do what I agree with and only in the way feminists(that I agree with) do it, otherwise no one should take you seriously because feminism is pure and good and "just wants equality".

OuiCrudites · 2013-01-25T09:33:53+00:00

Well let's see...I was a feminist for my entire adult life up until about four years ago. I had numerous feminist friends and girlfriends and lived with a woman who had a degree in women's studies. But I guess I must not know what Feminism is. Makes Sense!

ullere · 2013-01-25T14:00:27+00:00

Oh god.

Last week, the men’s rights activist blog Return of Kings posted a list of the nine ugliest feminists.

ROK is Game guy Roosh's pet site, were all kinds of pua's post daily short posts. It is in no way a MRA site, like not even a litte.

Return Of Kings is a blog for heterosexual, masculine men. It’s meant for a small but vocal collection of men in America today who believe men should be masculine and women should be feminine.

RoK aims to usher the return of the masculine man in a world where masculinity is being increasingly punished and shamed in favor of creating an androgynous and politically-correct society that allows women to assert superiority and control over men. Sadly, yesterday’s masculinity is today’s misogyny. The site intends to be a safe corner of the web for those men who don’t agree with the direction that Western culture is headed.

RoK is published by Roosh V.'

Roosh V has perpetually said he thinks the MRM is full of effeminate losers, he does not consider himself a mra. He isn't anti MRM, just doesn't think we are going about things the right way.

source1

I’m not against Men’s Rights, but a lot of these blogs are written by guys who have no game and can’t get laid, and serve as just an outlet for being a lifelong sexual loser. It’s like women who get around in their circles to complain about about how men aren’t sensitive or caring enough.

source 2

I want to say I’m saddened that MRAs and myself are unable to co-exist, but really I’m not. They add no value to my life and give me no answers on how to navigate the modern world. They were faced with a choice: spend all their free time on blogs or approach a god damn woman. They picked the former. For that I have no respect for them. The storm has arrived and they are the dead weight that must be quickly tossed overboard to prevent the boat from capsizing.

So right from the offset I'm a little critical that this author is placing MRA's alongside a guy who is strictly anti-feminist, that in no way is a MRA. Seems like a simple google search, or actually reading the blog you are refering to might have been appropriate but whatever.

Columns and websites that are misogynistic and openly anti-feminist plague the internet, where screen names protect identities and allow for so-called free speech

See right here Paige has implied a difference between being mysogynistic and being anti-feminist, I don't know why this difference gets lost later on in the article. Also 'so called fre speech', what? You mean of course free speech.

One of these procedures can result in fatal hemorrhaging and infection, not to mention the complete removal of the individual’s ability to experience sexual pleasure. The other is an outdated practice that can lead to complications, but causes much less harm when compared to female circumcision.

Legalise theft because murder is worse? Nonsense. Also FGM is illegal, so it's not infact 'a very real issue' the law is on the right side of that one. Only MGM is legal, hell it's even incentivised.

circuitology · 2013-01-25T12:27:54+00:00

One of these procedures can result in fatal hemorrhaging and infection, not to mention the complete removal of the individual’s ability to experience sexual pleasure. The other is an outdated practice that can lead to complications, but causes much less harm when compared to female circumcision.

Baby boys have died as a direct result of circumcisions.
It can be argued that some sexual pleasure is lost through circumcision.
Even if we accept that there is no sexual pleasure lost through circumcision, why not take a case of female circumcision where the clitoris is left intact? That's still illegal, but I don't think you can say there's no sexual pleasure possible.
If circumcision is an 'outdated practice', why is it so widely performed?

These are comparable in almost every way, so trying to force a distinction like this is pointless and moronic.

But I guess I forgot the real issue here; men and their body parts just don't matter. At least, not enough to, you know, care.

Just another example of how some people can't accept that men have problems too, and even when talking about circumcision, it has to be about how much worse female circumcision is by comparison.

The mind boggles.

CosmicKeys · 2013-01-25T08:15:52+00:00

Firstly, Feminism is patriarchy theory, a theory about men that marginalizes and ignores their issues. If a powerful group dominating gender discussions with this theory not a men's rights issue I don't what is.

Secondly, the MRM is small and only now gaining enough steam to be recognized. Organizing groups is difficult, and you are very much in danger of being publicly shamed and negatively publicized by feminists for standing up for men's rights in a non-feminist-supported way.

Thirdly, feminists do lots of talking about minor issues too. Oh boy do they. In fact I'd say the majority of feminist media these days is talking about media representation and personal pressures from gender roles.

But yeah, Return of the Kings spits out some drivel.

oneiorosgrip · 2013-01-25T09:10:01+00:00

The article frames anti-feminism within the men's rights movement as if it occurred in a vacuum, with MRA's opposing feminist advocacy with no evidence, but merely assumed blame... when in fact the causes of many men's rights issues are genuinely rooted in feminist activism, from advocacy which has led to discriminatory law to biased research which has led to discriminatory policy. Feminism apologists try to downplay the movement's damaging effects on government and social response to men, and in particular the infringement of men's civil rights, not because they believe these effects do not happen, but because they know that as awareness of their occurrence spreads, support for the groups whose efforts led to those effects will wane. In other words, they don't assert innocence out of ignorance - they're trying (too late) to cover their asses.

2013-01-25T14:24:27+00:00

Damn son!!! Toronto is becoming a hotbed of MRA activism, I might just pack my shit and go there.

DerpaNerb · 2013-01-25T14:58:26+00:00

Columns and websites that are misogynistic and openly anti-feminist plague the internet, where screen names protect identities and allow for so-called free speech

I didn't stop reading, but I did stop taking anything she said seriously.

For one, the simple fact of being anti-feminist is obviously a negative... meaning she is totally incapable or unwilling to even attempt to see any faults in her ideology.

Secondly, she thinks free-speech is apparently evil and wrong.

Thirdly, she apparently thinks screen-names to protect identities are bad, which implies that no one should be anonymous, meaning peoples identities should be public... yet I bet this very same person was vehemently against what AVFM did with some of the UofT protesters.

Grubnar · 2013-01-25T14:53:39+00:00

Take for example MRAs’ belief that male circumcision is wrong. Instead of explaining the issue and giving evidence to support their cause, they pose their argument as a response to feminists and the ‘double standard’ of female genital mutilation being illegal. One of these procedures can result in fatal hemorrhaging and infection, not to mention the complete removal of the individual’s ability to experience sexual pleasure. The other is an outdated practice that can lead to complications, but causes much less harm when compared to female circumcision.

Really? Just 5 mins on google would be enough to see that this is WRONG!

TorontoJustice · 2013-01-25T06:14:51+00:00

We're also mentioned here: http://oncampus.macleans.ca/education/2013/01/23/a-free-speech-wall-mcgill-daily-and-men%E2%80%99s-rights-activists/

CedMon · 2013-01-25T15:16:42+00:00

The comments on the article cheer me up! At least the readers aren't buying it.

Good comment on suffrage in Canada in the comments as well:

Seems like you haven't been reading your history, because if you did you'd know that not only was the vote restricted to men of the upper class, but that wealthy women were allowed to vote in 1916 while most of the 67,000 soldiers who died in WW1 were denied that right. In fact both men and women in won the right to universal suffrage in 1920.

C0CKPUNCHER · 2013-01-25T07:54:42+00:00

Vague generalities.

Crimson_D82 · 2013-01-25T15:32:43+00:00

There’s a big difference between believing in your own values or championing free speech and going out of your way to hate on another group.

You would know, wouldn't you?

Realize that if you are working honestly toward social change, supporters will be there to help. And stop aligning yourself with ant-feminist websites. That’s a surefire way to see your goals and legitimacy go up in flames.

We're not the ones whois movement is caving in on it's self.

Take for example MRAs’ belief that male circumcision is wrong. Instead of explaining the issue and giving evidence to support their cause, they pose their argument as a response to feminists and the ‘double standard’ of female genital mutilation being illegal. One of these procedures can result in fatal hemorrhaging and infection, not to mention the complete removal of the individual’s ability to experience sexual pleasure. The other is an outdated practice that can lead to complications, but causes much less harm when compared to female circumcision.

The double standard IS a valid argument, pull your head out of your cunt.
Like no one ever died from having their DICK CUT. /s

DeadBabyStew · 2013-01-26T00:50:32+00:00

feminism is easily understood when you observe the outcome of its actions and ignore the words of its members.

dmcginley · 2013-01-25T15:41:11+00:00

I'd just like to say "Stand up for your Dick" is not something I'd like to promote or take part in. I'm all about advocating for Equality... but if they sound like a bunch of hooligans.

Not the MRA that's represented in our group. I feel that "Stand up for your Dick" are the kind of dudes we downvote.

babno · 2013-01-25T17:04:10+00:00

While the author themselves misunderstands MRAs and grossly oversimplifies many things, I think it does make a valid point and we could stand to focus more on issues by themselves. I'm especially not a fan of the "if a man did this" posts that make up a sizable share here.

2013-01-25T17:19:43+00:00

I used to write for that newspaper. Now before we leap all over it believing that one article represents the views of the entire paper... remember this: these are volunteers. Sure it says "staff" but the only paid contributors are editors. Each editor has different views and many will allow staff to put out their view without changing it.

Under deadlines they can run some softball material from time to time... but I guarantee you that there will be disagreement among the writers and a pro MRA article could surely come.

Of the student newspapers in the country The Gateway is widely recognized as the strongest. That said weaker articles do arise... like this one.

MensRightsDirectory · 2013-01-25T17:48:21+00:00

I just love the way the author uses the example of a PUA site to say MRAs misunderstand feminism. Kinda like pointing out communists to say capitalists don't understand.

At least she could have done the research before she tried to demonize the MRM. Go to Genderratic (plugging for typhonblue and gingko, sue me) and get a, well, a clue.

Bulbort · 2013-01-25T19:26:53+00:00

The more they label us terrorists for wanting gender egalitarianism the more my resolve is strengthened.

Don't be shut down by guilt games or name calling. Feminists are running scared that men are waking up and taking the time to look at all these studies that have been propagated as fact, unmolested by scrutiny, for what 60 or so years now.

That the entire feminist media organization is responding so heatedly, and so pointedly to destroy us not with reason, but with feeling, is evidence of gaining traction.

You can tell me I'm evil, a rapist, a woman beater, a pedophile, whatever. Like water on a ducks back it has no traction in reality and so rolls right off.

IHaveALargePenis · 2013-01-25T16:32:28+00:00

However, what certain MRAs do share with Return of Kings and what makes them just as hopeless is a common dogma of anti-feminism and a nasty habit of spending more time attacking feminists than on actual activism. In the end, this is the reason neither should be taken seriously.

Men's rights is wrong, because gender and equity feminism isn't the same as Return of Kings and regular MRA's.

MensRightsDirectory · 2013-01-26T06:23:29+00:00

Seems that someone over at gateway checked themselves and had to correct themselves. They have edited the original story. Adding a correction and altering the first paragraph. It now reads.

"The original version of this article described Return of Kings as a “men’s rights activist blog.” This was erroneously added during the editing process and is not reflective of the author’s opinion. The Gateway regrets the error, and offers instead a description of the blog quoted directly:

“ROK aims to usher the return of the masculine man in a world where masculinity is being increasingly punished, shamed, and—in some cases—outlawed, all in favor of creating an androgynous and politically-correct society that is allowing women to assert superiority and control over men. The site aims to be a safe corner of the web who don’t agree with the direction that Western culture is headed.”

"Last week, the blog Return of Kings posted a list of the nine ugliest feminists. But even more unfortunate than the list itself is that the blog is not alone in its view. Columns and websites that are misogynistic and openly anti-feminist plague the internet, where screen names protect identities and allow for so-called free speech. Even Edmonton has its own chapter of Men’s Rights Activists."

SuperUppercut · 2013-01-26T19:01:49+00:00

Feminists misunderstand reality.

AnnSmith1 · 2013-01-29T06:12:03+00:00

So you thought you understood feminism? Join the discussion with the anonymous community on the only privacy powered social channel. http://bit.ly/YmtokA

ExiledSenpai · 2013-01-25T06:30:41+00:00

She understands.

Title	Alberta Student newspaper - "MRAs misunderstand feminism"
Author	TorontoJustice
Upvotes	63
Comments	63
Date	January 25, 2013 6:14 AM UTC (13 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/mensrights/comments/178r76/alberta-student-newspaper-mras-misunderstand-/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/alberta-student-newspaper-mras-misunderstand.1604841 https://theredarchive.com/post/1604841

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