"equality" [x-post from funny]

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True. But a man who committed a similar crime would most likely get life imprisonment. There also was considerable sympathy expressed for Andrea Yates at the time, with some people even shifting blame to her husnband.

Would a man who murdered five children in cold blood receive a retrospective like this?

So how is Andrea Yates ten years after Houston jurors took less than four hours to reject her insanity defense? "She's doing very well," Parnham said. "I talked to her today. I see her perhaps once a month. She's close to members in the firm. For instance, my wife will provide transportation for her mother to visit her." Yates currently resides and is treated at the Kerrville State Hospital, which is located approximately 70 miles from San Antonio.

"She is gradually trying to get acclimated to the normalcy of society," Parnham said. "She's taken an active role in the Yates Children Memorial Fund [created ten years ago by Parnham and his wife to spread the word about mental illness, in general, and about postpartum illness, in particular]. She makes cards and manufacturers aprons, which she sells anonymously, and then she takes the money and donates it to the Fund," Parnham said.

Isn't it nice of her to donate money to the foundation set up in memory of the children she murdered?

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I think what's happening here is that a lot of men receive sentences that are honestly just too fucking brutal for the crimes they have committed. Prison is a fucked up place and it should be reserved for only the most depraved of individuals.

In response to recognizing that we men have been historically punished much more strongly than is fair, I think some men want to return that favor to women in the name of vengeance. "Hey, society has taken a giant fucking shit on us in this manor for quite some time now, let's let women experience this bullshit abuse too."

Personally, I don't agree with it, but I do see a silver lining to this way of thinking. The more and more women are held to the bullshit standards that men historically have been held to, the more and more sympathy the people in those positions in general will get by society, and eventually something will actually be done about it because of that. Basically if you've got a shit-ton of nonviolent men getting raped in prison, no one gives a shit, because it's all men. Add women into the mix - who are actually capable of receiving sympathy - and you might actually be able to change the system. It's not an approach I agree with, but I admit that it's affective.

I think in the end it all comes down to hyperagency being attributed to men and hypoagency being attributed to women.

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The more and more women are held to the bullshit standards that men historically have been held to, the more and more sympathy the people in those positions in general will get by society, and eventually something will actually be done about it because of that.

No...it won't work that way and do you know why? Because they are women. As long as the paradigm exists that women are held in higher value that men, then society in general will not look at the situation and say "This is truly fucked up; let's stop doing it to everybody." They will say; "This is truly fucked up; let's stop doing it to women."

Case in point; there is a debate in the UK right now where feminist advocates are arguing to abolish the entire concept of incarcerating women that have been justly convicted for crimes simply because they are women. That is what you will get if things keep going the way that they are going.

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Charles Manson is in prison and in fact, he was just denied parole in April of '12. Most likely, as his next scheduled parole hearing will be in 2027 (in which he'll be 92), it is most likely that he will die in jail.

Furthermore, most of his family will probably remain incarcerated for the remainder of their lives. The youngest member of the "Manson Family" Leslie Van Houten (no relation to Millhouse) is 63 and was denied parole in June. One member, Bruce Davis was actually approved for parole by the parole board, but then had it vetoed by CA Gov. Jerry Brown last March.

But to continue...can we define "quality of life" in this context? We have to ask the question regarding the purpose of prisons; are they meant for rehabilitation, incarceration, or a little bit of both? Let's be honest here; criminal psychology really can't "fix" people who break the law because as it stands today, the American legal system is broken.

Look at ourselves; we jail people who use illegal drugs longer than we jail the people who sell them. As we intone in this sub, we know that there are certain factions that are more than willing to use the threat and reality of prison as a personal/political tool to further their own ends. Until we fix our justice system, then jails are just another evil that plagues our society; a necessary evil, but an evil, nonetheless.

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There's no way that will work. Even if you could fit it no one would read it.

I like your idea of a link to a webpage though. The problem is that most people are uninterested in parsing a lot of data and/or wall of text which is why that image is so effective.

I tend to think of things like this as planting a seed. Someone can argue that it's all b.s. and pay no attention to it - or they can do some research and see if it's true (see my comment about spoon-feeding).

Since feminism considers men's live a carefree life filled with "unearned privilege", free cars and apparently women falling from the sky into men's bedrooms and consistently ignores the plight of the majority of men (or worse claims it's the patriarchy which is set up to help us exclusively actually not benefiting us - a logical gordian knot) a simple reductive image or meme is hardly against our interests.

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Aside from a few fringe cases, I believe that most people who are on this subreddit consider there to be a fundamental difference in the treatment of gender in our society. Perhaps I am wrong to assume this, but it does not seem logical that an organization concerned about gender equality does not believe that there is gender inequality; that would be absurd. As such, it is unproductive to reiterate to ourselves with these (very biased) info-graphics about how oppressed men are in our society.

I would argue, instead, that this subreddit should contain material that instigates fruitful, thoughtful, and productive discussion about gender inequality, specifically for males. Whereas this subreddit consistently cites Tumblr posts as examples of a very biased, misinformed, and immature examples of feminists, we also fail to distinguish ourselves from those posts with material, like this particular post, that is comparable to the Tumblr posts, both in how radical and how unsupported the claims are.

Generalizations made about men in the pop-cultural feminism movement about men is what created the problem of men's rights. With posts like these, we are simply perpetuating the problem by turning these generalizations against women, which is simply unproductive as it simply creates a tug-of-war between men's rights groups and feminist groups. With that said, we should not generalize all feminists to be misandrists who have an agenda of putting females first in society. Yes, there are feminist groups that do do this, and, yes, the term "male privilege" has widespread misuse and addresses non-issues that have nothing to do with men having more power. However, does labeling feminists as misandrists not have an uncanny resemblance to certain groups of feminists labeling all men's rights groups as misogynists?

Social justice is not a zero-sum game; both parties can win--we simply have to figure out a solution in which both parties benefit. Graphics such as this seek to gain by taking things away from others and putting others down is not what produces the desired result.

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I'm going to reply to my own comment so it's a little more visible, but this is in response to /u/nihilist_nancy, /u/tyciol, and the rest of you who commented seriously.

I do not keep up with modern feminist doctrine. I do not agree with the extremists whose voices scream out above the rest. I do not believe that women as a group are inherently better or worse than men as a group.

My experience with feminism, which caused me to identify as a feminist, was learning about the original leaders of the movement: women like Susan B. Anthony and Elizabeth Cady Stanton. They believed in equality for women and men fiscally and politically. I took those ideals and applied them to other concepts, such as the justice system and domestic affairs. So although I do not identify with many modern feminists, I will still continue to call myself a feminist.

It's my personal choice, after all. Does every single person in the Men's Rights Movement agree with everything posted here? Likely not. Each one of you is an individual, with your own experiences, opinions, and knowledge. Disagreeing with the group doesn't mean you're not a member; it means you're thinking about what message you want the group to send. That's what I do when I say that I am a feminist, but disagree with what the majority of modern feminists say.

[–]kragshot 2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Good for you, CuteQueenPika...you backed up your declaration with some history. I salute you.

But here's the problem; feminists like you are being way too silent while the other ones are misrepresenting your set. You need to rally your sisters and take your set back from these (according to you), false-flagging misandric feminists who are giving good feminists like you a bad name.

We can only judge "feminism" as a whole based upon the actions and words of your most active members.

When we see lauded feminists like Jessica Valenti, Amanda Marcotte, Kate Harding, and others espousing ideas that scream of hating men and then subsequently seeing those ideas being actually considered; what are we supposed to think?

When we see the largest Women's Rights organization openly stating that "father's rights" organizations and the idea of shared custody will only help men abuse their children, then what message are we supposed to deduce from such a statement?

When the primary piece of federal legislation in our country that deals with domestic violence (VAWA) contains no gender-neutral language within it's text and makes no mention to succor or support male victims of domestic violence, then how are we supposed to believe anything other than what this implies?

I'm not doing this to bash you personally. I'm just trying to illustrate a point and explain to you why people here feel and think the way that we do. If "your feminism" was the dominant form of feminism in this country, then we would not be having this discussion. But as you can see; this is not the case.

Second wave feminism made the political personal and vice-versa. The intentions of Susan B. Anthony, Elizabeth Cady Stanton, Sojourner Truth, and their contemporaries have been mutated, perverted, and warped into something frighteningly out of control and the things that have spawned from it have already done severe damage and are now ramping up to do more.

So I implore you to please get back in the trenches, rally the sisterhood, and do something about what these people have done to your movement.

[–]cutequeenpika 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Wow... reading that was actually pretty inspiring! I hope someone gives you gold for that.

I agree. Feminism these days is far too reactionary and definitely too extreme. I can understand and even respect more extreme measures in extreme cases (Phoolan Devi and similar women, although not considered feminists per se, are the sorts of women who take/took extreme measures because of the horrible societies in which they live/d, and although I don't agree with their actions I fully understand the reasoning behind them). However, I do not believe that condemning half of the human race will get anyone anywhere. Nor do I believe that women are the sole caregivers of children; that sounds very misogynistic and misandrist to me. That sounds like the sort of thing that feminists should be fighting instead of encouraging.

As for VAWA, I actually very much agree with it: when it was enacted, domestic violence against men wasn't considered to be a reality. Now that we know that it is, and now that it is becoming less taboo to discuss domestic, sexual, and other forms of violence against men, I think we need to extend it to protect male victims.

I do what I can to spread my interpretation of feminism, but as a freshman in college with only the most infinitesimal power on the internet, there's not much I can do... yet. For now, all that I can really do is talk to people and present my side of the argument. Which I do quite happily. :)

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For the first, there are quite a few situations where this has actually happened.

The most notable case in history was the "Burning Bed." Francine Hughes set her house on fire with her husband inside, killing him. While it is colloquially "assumed" that Hughes was a battered wife, there was never any genuine physical evidence found of that abuse (some say the reason for that is the police in her home town knew about the abuse but "overlooked" it as it was just "something between a man and his wife," so there was no documentation of the abuse). In addition, Hughes had the presence of mind to calmly bundle up her children and put them in the family car before she doused the house with gasoline and igniting it. Nevertheless, she was found not guilty of murder by reason of "temporary insanity."

However, I would guess that the OP was referring to the overwhelming feminist defense and support of convicted murderer Jodi Arias. She consistently cited abuse as her grounds for murdering Travis Alexander, but there was no evidence found of the alleged abuse. But based upon her claims alone, there was massive feminist rallying behind her defense.

As for the "private gym" remark, there were countless lawsuits against "men-only" institutions and businesses citing sexual discrimination in the 70s, which included gyms and health clubs but today we see several national franchise health clubs specifically for women (i.e. Women's Workout World, Curves, etc....).

If you google gym sex discrimination, you will see many discussions of sexual discrimination lawsuits against these "women only" gyms...and you will also see that they most of them get thrown out of court or dismissed. Wisconsin was recently forced to set up a policy excluding same-sex gyms from their sexual discrimination law because of the recent rash of lawsuits going after the practices of women-only gyms. Only recently, the state of California has ruled that women-only gyms are illegal.

If you want to see how this can go horribly wrong, look no further than this case in Detroit. This health club had two locations available for members and then they changed one completely to "women only," leaving men access to the other location only. But it gets better; the remaining location has alternate days that are "women only" as well. So the men who have paid memberships to this health club can only use one location on alternate days while women have full access to one club and shared access to the other. However, men can come in to use the weight room only on women's days if they upgrade to a $99.00/month premium membership.

Personally; I have no problem with single sex health clubs. But the issue is the "have your cake and eat it too" attitude that feminists have regarding men-only institutions. If somebody opened a men-only health club and didn't let a woman in, we would hear about it all over the news, but we are supposed to just say nothing about women-only health clubs because..."women," right?

On another note, let's look at the constant feminist uproar about The Augusta National Golf Club's men only policy for membership. Note that they do not prevent women from playing there; they just cannot be actual dues-paying members of the club. Augusta is the last remaining men only country club in the US and has staunchly defended itself from countless lawsuits. As it is a privately-funded organization and receives no support from any federal, state, or municipal government, they cannot be forced to comply with anti-discrimination laws.

But then there's this case about a woman who sued a town for not letting her participate in a men's only tournament. Even though the town has two women's tournaments, five men-only events and several mixed ones, she sued because she wasn't allowed in one particular members-only tournament for men. And she won based upon Title IX logic. Despite the fact that the town had fewer tournaments for women simply because there was less interest in golf by the women in the town. But the court ruled in her favor because the golf course didn't host an equal number of tournaments for women, offering them the opportunity to participate. Note the lack of logic here because all they had to do to gauge the interest of female golfers is to look at the turnout of the women's only and mixed gender tournaments.

Let's look at other examples of that double standard. Girls can join the Boy Scouts, but when a boy who identified as a girl joined the Girl Scouts, there was a massive uproar about it by women.

The truth is simple; the feminist attitude being illustrated by these situations is that "it is only discrimination when men are involved. If it's being fostered by women, then apparently there's a good reason for it."

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"...who gets the larger sentence..."

Using consistent inferential grammatical logic, does that indicate to you that the author feels a longer prison sentence is good? If I tell you that someone murdered my dad, and now look how she gets away with it, does that wording suggest to you approval of whoever murdered my father?

I'm not sure I follow. The statement is made in natural language. If I wanted to parse it down to analyze it, I'd begin with semantics. To me it reads:

F does atrocity, f gets less severe consequences M does atrocity, M gets more severe consequences Justice only if f & m do atrocity & consequence f = consequence m

In any case, I'm not implying that OP actually wants to do all that stuff. Im saying that the sentiment behind the post kind of comes off as : "here is a list of benefits given only to women." He meant it (I assume) to demonstrate an inequality. That's fine. But the thing that might make someone raise an eyebrow is the list of supposed benefits. They kind of smack against moral sensibilities. Like, "oh that's not fair! She gets away with murder, why can't I get away with murder?" Just seems like an inverted sort of evaluation.

[–]Peter_Principle_ 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

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[–]tyciol 4 points5 points6 points 12 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

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[–]tyciol 2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

The way you guys carry on about it, one would think that women can legally murder people

One might think that if one lacks reading comprehension. The concern is that people can get away with murder, or receive a slap on the wrist for crime in general. Whether this happens due to actual law or misapplication of law is irrelevant to the end result and the concern it invokes.

I wouldn't be surprised if most of you regulars cringed and ran screaming from every woman you saw.

That's ridiculous, I cringe and walk away in a slow quiet robotic fashion so as not to upset them with excessive noise or movement that might frighten them into calling the police and saying I assaulted them.

Any bros also cross the street to avoid women? It's not just black men who feel pressured into doing this, these days. Motivation is a mix of concern for their emotional wellbeing and concern for one's own freedoms.

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Title	"equality" [x-post from funny]
Author	adamwaldron95
Upvotes	1012
Comments	180
Date	October 29, 2013 7:14 PM UTC (12 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/1phf8v/equality_xpost_from_funny/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/equality-x-post-from-funny.1160137 https://theredarchive.com/post/1160137

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