The Netherlands revises the rape laws, changes it to a completely non gendered law!

CoolDEpot · 2020-11-05T16:23:53+00:00

Yes !
Lets see how its actually put in practice though.

NoMoreMisterMaybe · 2020-11-05T18:20:58+00:00

This is extremely dangerous if people do not take into account the halo effect. Interpreted from some angle, essentially, emotional arguments are taken at higher value than before. However, emotional arguments are in essence flaky at best, and completely worthless at worst. Now take the world news into account and see how often "his word vs hers" has resulted in her getting the benefit of the doubt. Doesn't matter if she can now be the accuser or the accused, if in both cases she is more likely to get away than he is, and he is more likely to be proven guilty when accused.

On the other hand, if emotional arguments are considered completely worthless on their own, you can't take this law as anything but symbolism. You can never prove someone's words unless backed up by audio or video evidence (other cases could already be proven by signs of abuse and such).

I can't see this as anything but a loss for men given the current state of the world and the current evidence in psychology and sociology pointing towards women being favored in subjective arguments. The only thing men get out of this, is universal agreement that rape is rape regardless of gender, which matters little in the grand scheme of things if women still get lesser sentences, lesser conviction rates and false accusations are not fought, along with all the other garbage that comes with this can of worms.

nbthrowaway12 · 2020-11-05T17:59:54+00:00

Dutchman here. I don't know what you're on about, but this law is a bad thing.

It needed forceful penetration with violence to count.

This change wasn't to benefit men. It was to benefit women who weren't penetrated but still felt like they should fit the definition of "rape".

Any sex that was non consensual is rape. This also counts if the victim freezes or wasn't able to refuse. Penetration is not needed, violence is not needed, it's only relevant to a harsher sentence for the violence.

This is an extremely invasive and broad law, which basically gives women the freedom to call something rape even if it wasn't. It's basically an "enthusiastic consent" law, and we all know how terrible that stuff gets.

Lendari · 2020-11-05T20:18:08+00:00

So it's possible to be accused of rape without having been forceful or having any specific physical contact at all? It sounds to me like this completely changes the definition of rape and as such devalues the term.

Here's what I'll never understand. If you drink and drive then your at fault. Even if theres no negative consequences for anyone else. However, if you drink and fuck that's just fine. Unless you regret it in the morning. Then it's the other persons fault. What these laws are missing is personal responsibility for your own decisions.

JohnKimble111 · 2020-11-05T17:41:09+00:00

Source?

trash62 · 2020-11-05T16:32:54+00:00

I think that's a terrible thing.

Anything and everything can now be used to say there wasn't consent.

Society will always take the female side.

Therefore, any sex is rape as long as she says (even retroactively) that it was rape.

Honestly, does anyone even want to have sex anymore? You'd be better off fucking a landmine.

2020-11-05T19:51:36+00:00

Freezing and not communicating disinterest is dangerous. Although most are going to dislike this, you can't blame someone for not knowing. And this crap about confirmative/enthusiastic consent nobody actually does. I'm sorry for everyone involved.

Roary93 · 2020-11-05T21:00:29+00:00

Waiting for feminist groups to screech that it's putting female victims at risk, taking the focus off female victims etc etc

Bojack35 · 2020-11-05T17:27:39+00:00

Its great progress if it's actually applied to both men and women.

I still find the whole freezing side problematic. I get this occurs in genuine cases of sexual assault so does need to be considered' but it does still come across that you can believe you are having consensual sex with someone and they can then say oh no I didnt want to have sex I just wasnt able to say no and felt pressured to respond enthusiastically. Dont really see a practical solution to that.

RinsiblePlum · 2020-11-05T20:38:57+00:00

Therapist told me a woman cannot rape a man, so good news, no trauma for me! This is great. Hope he sees it.

EvilLothar · 2020-11-05T16:59:22+00:00

And can they withdraw consent after the fact? Do they actually have to say no, or can a lack of yes mean it wasn't consensual?

Seems like it's still going to be easy to be falsely accused of rape.

Mycroft033 · 2020-11-05T22:04:16+00:00

Honestly, it’s legally so broadly worded, it’s not really an improvement. It just seems to be an improvement, but the broader a law is worded, the easier false accusations are to make. Don’t just jump at the exclusion of forced penetration. What this law is saying in actuality is legal speak for “he doesn’t have to penetrate you for it to be rape” and that’s the only reason penetration is brought up.

If it was actually neutral it would definitely NOT be worded the way it is. Please don’t be taken in by legal-ese.

rahsoft · 2020-11-05T22:49:19+00:00

don't know about the Netherlands but where I'm from we have lenient sentencing for women and "not in the public interest to prosecute" which hinders not only the equal application of justice but the actual application e.g. refusal by the state to prosecute..

I think this law will be abused because the test for a case to prosecute is going to be bias regardless of the wording of the law.

vicious_armbar · 2020-11-05T23:18:27+00:00

I see a problem with: “If the victim freezes”. What the hell is that even supposed to mean? Feminists used to chant “No means no”. Which I completely agree with. But they keep moving the goal posts with the final objective of being able to retroactively revoke consent.

Also it doesn’t matter how gender neutral the law is. It matters how it’s applied.

Wisemanner · 2020-11-05T16:29:05+00:00

Will it apply to females who force sex on males?

askoel · 2020-11-06T11:27:44+00:00

Im happy this happened in my country! I like the fact that the law is non gendered now. But this also means there are going to be more false accusations of rape.

jackjo937 · 2020-11-05T19:40:09+00:00

I think stuff like this shows that the laws and governments are finally starting to change as they see how some of there laws are still sexist to men and I believe this is a tremendous victory

Juilyn · 2020-11-05T19:21:35+00:00

qemist · 2020-11-06T00:20:41+00:00

I expect many more men will be charged with rape.

tenchineuro · 2020-11-06T00:44:11+00:00

I googled and can find no mention of this.

Can you post a link?

EDIT: Nevermind, found the link.

https://nos.nl/artikel/2355344-alle-onvrijwillige-seks-wordt-strafbaar-als-verkrachting.html

Maybe it's google translate, but it not at all clear that this includes male victims of females.

All forms of involuntary sex will soon be seen as rape, making it punishable as a serious crime. That is what Minister Grapperhaus puts in his amended bill against sexual violence. He first wanted to distinguish between sex against will and rape. But that plan received a lot of criticism and therefore threatened to fail.
Lower limit in the law
How are you now? Rape is considered a serious crime. There is a prison sentence of up to twelve years. It must be shown that "penetration into the body" took place and that this was done under duress or that violence was used. Convicted offenders never get away with just community service, they always have to go to jail.
Minister Grapperhaus now wants to include a "lower limit" in the law. If someone should know on the basis of (non-) verbal signals, for example, that someone else does not want sex, but does not take this into account, that person can soon be punished for "guilt of rape".
The criterion that there is only rape if coercion or violence is involved has been removed. It remains the case that coercion and violence are regarded as aggravating circumstances. Anyone who is guilty of this can therefore receive a higher penalty.
“This lower limit lowers the threshold for criminal offenses for involuntary sex and allows victims to report rape in more situations,” says Grapperhaus. Support evidence, such as traces on the body, camera images or WhatsApp messages, can support a victim's story. "

So rape requires "penetration into the body", sounds like women can't be guilty of this.

Also they want to make rape easier to prosecute.

Same old same old.

panzercampingwagen · 2020-11-06T02:37:57+00:00

If you think this is gonna strenghten men's rights you've got it all wrong my friend.

AngryIPScanner · 2020-11-06T03:44:09+00:00

This also counts if the victim freezes

This is so stupid. How can this ever be proven?

I just don't see how rape can ever be proven in any situation. It's always going to be one person's word against another.

Wisemanner · 2020-11-06T06:32:12+00:00

Having read all the comments here, I'm now of the belief that this is very bad for Dutch males. Sure, in very rare circumstances the odd male might be helped, but in return for that many innocent males are going to be victimised.

Sahar90900 · 2020-11-06T09:20:25+00:00

Hopefully the insane Brits and their ridicilous 'Penetrative' laws will follow after

Alexander2718 · 2020-11-05T17:22:52+00:00

This is very good news. It seems Netherlands is going in a direction opposite what I read from other western countries such as UK. Anyway we still have to wait how this will work out on practice. For instance in family court men and women have same rights but judges favor women in custody cases.

lzzbian94 · 2020-11-05T16:45:34+00:00

That’s a great idea

Cyb3rd31ic_Citiz3n · 2020-11-05T18:41:07+00:00

Well done, Netherlands!

MyFatThumb · 2020-11-05T23:50:51+00:00

Non gendered rape laws don't mean that men will be treated equally to women.

It may be a step in the right direction or it may not. Reducing the definition of rape might just get more men imprisoned.

In Spain a group of 5 men in 2016 known as "la manada" were imprisoned for having sex with a woman who claimed she froze and didn't say no but had sex with all 5. There was no violence she submitted to the men and they were charged with sexual assault with a lesser sentence than sexual aggression.

The reality was that she had voluntary sex but one of them stole her phone and all 5 abandoned her after the sex. She was overwhelmed with regret that when she found crying in the street she claimed she had been raped when questioned why she was crying.

The law is being changed in Spain so that women who have sex and "freeze" can claim the same crime as being violently raped.

I don't think reducing rape to freezing will save men from false rape convictions or help to convict women who force themselves on men sexually.

acbdxb · 2020-11-05T20:16:16+00:00

The feminists gonna be angry at this one 😂

Neveah_Hope_Dreams · 2020-11-05T19:50:57+00:00

Yesssss! Thankyou Dutch laws! Finally it's great to see change in the countries. Let's fight for more change.

sunwafffles · 2020-11-05T22:15:21+00:00

That is a good start. No one should be allowed to get away with a crime because they are male or female.

walnood · 2020-11-05T22:15:24+00:00

Proud of my country for this one!

auMatech · 2020-11-06T06:36:04+00:00

This also counts if the victim freezes or wasn't able to refuse

I can't see this being abused at all 🙄

chonkycat123 · 2020-11-05T21:12:12+00:00

This is our goal, and we must push it in every developed nation.

Omareky_ · 2020-11-06T08:52:08+00:00

Yeaaaaaaaaaa

SnooGiraffes5747 · 2020-11-06T03:40:38+00:00

It is very important for men to have more agency and more support when it comes to rape. I know the law doesn’t support them when it comes to this and neither does society. I’m so sorry that the world treats you this way.

I only want to point out that you disdain (for some of you) or straight up hatred (for others) of women is coloring your perspective a bit. False rape claims are very rare, they just get a lot of attention when they do happen because people want a reason to accuse women of, well, anything. The truth is that only 2-10% of rape claims are false. We also know that rape in general is an incredibly underreported crime, with 91% of rapes going unreported. This is both because of the abhorrent way that men are treated when they report being victims of rape and the equally abhorrent way women are treated when reporting being victims of rape.

Men are usually told they probably wanted it, that it couldn’t be that bad, bullied about being gay, or bullied about being “weak” or “pathetic.” Women are usually told they were asking for it, that it was their fault, that they wanted it and now they regret it, so they’re making it up, that they shouldn’t have been drinking or wearing what they were wearing.

So, society hurts both men and women when it comes to support in the aftermath of a rape and when it comes to justice. But please stop blaming women for this, or doing to women what is done to you. We can work together on this issue, and many more. If you hate women, you’re no better than the people who oppress you.

Lion_amongst_gods · 2020-11-05T23:54:00+00:00

Goed gedaan, Nederland! Strange, it's not publicized enough.

Quintrell · 2020-11-06T03:12:55+00:00

This is great! Probably motivated by a desire to promote equality for trans people but progress is progress I suppose

thegamblerNL · 2020-11-05T23:34:46+00:00

Whell this is bad... really bad...

Jaja_Aureolin · 2020-11-06T04:39:13+00:00

Prove it !

Davegoodday · 2020-11-06T08:04:23+00:00

Good shit. Male victims can now have a chance of being recognized as victims. What does the exact law say though? Cause of the way you wrote it, it sounds like it could be manipulated quite a lot. "If the victim freezes or wasn't able to refuse" Is a lot of gray are that can be twisted and put out of context and such. I can imagine a lot false accusations drawn from the way it sounds. Both from men and women actually, cause usually women don't feel the need to ask the man, cause its "obvious" when he wants it. Then he takes her to court after and she has to say she didn't ask for consent and say he was drunk. Those cases in reversed sexes certainly took place and were very harmful.

Sebanimation · 2020-11-06T10:28:07+00:00

"wasn't able to refuse".

What does this mean considering one night stands where both might be drunk? Or drunk and you don't know? Can one claim that it was rape, even if she/he in the drunk state admitted to it.

I find this phrasing to be highly problematic. I think we should have a new word/term instead of devaluing the already existing term "rape".

You mean a person being forcefully raped with penetration and one having a one night stand while being drunk (and maybe without penetration?) is the same thing? For me, the "real" victims (violence, penetration) aren't emphasized enough this way. Everything can be rape.

Elfere · 2020-11-06T13:12:52+00:00

Well... There goes my ice fetish.

benjacobson2020 · 2020-11-06T13:45:11+00:00

The Dutch are living in the future, simply by being able to admit things aren perfect and people mess up

SonnBaz · 2020-11-06T20:40:37+00:00

BASED

Mollof2 · 2020-11-07T08:29:53+00:00

Hope none of you get raped!

Title	The Netherlands revises the rape laws, changes it to a completely non gendered law!
Author	d_nijmegen
Upvotes	3532
Comments	123
Date	November 5, 2020 4:15 PM UTC (5 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/joljc0/the_netherlands_revises_the_rape_laws_changes_it/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/the-netherlands-revises-the-rape-laws-changes-it.1193815 https://theredarchive.com/post/1193815

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