Is violence a male value?
No more than criminality is a black value that the black community instills in its members.
Or that incompetence is a female value.
Or that greediness is a Jewish value.
Or any other bigoted and primitive expression linking a behavior to a group of people.
We as a society decided that we prefer not to brand groups in those ways because it is imprecise and hateful. That is, of course, unless we are discussing men.
The effort here is to distort perception through rhetoric. In the same way that normal expressions of male sexuality become "objectification" and "sexism" in feminist analysis, male violence is an expression of "toxic masculinity."
And not just violence, but anything that feminists and self-hating men deem to be too male. For example, here's an article that claims that vaping is being poisoned by toxic masculinity . . . why? Only because the writer observes that more men do it than women.
http://mic.com/articles/125151/we-get-it-you-vape
The culture tells us that women are entitled to homogenous female spaces. Shows like Sex and the City and Girls depict an overwhelmingly female point of view. Only when too many men are in one place is it a problem. Only male spaces and male outlooks require diversification and adjustments.
That is what they mean by "Toxic Masculinity."
Outsiders telling another group to adjust their culture, to bring it in line with someone else's concept of what it should be, what it should look like, what it should sound like.
Which is a lot like white supremacists talking about violence that they see as being intrinsic to black culture. And then attacking all cultural expressions of that community, and all events and media that they might feel are too "black."
We have a right to male cultural spaces. And we have a right to defend male cultural spaces from being the subject of gendered attacks.
Men are not perfect. Neither are women. But when women are violent or disruptive, they're not accused of exhibiting "toxic femininity." In fact, when men discuss women or women's culture in monolithic terms, they are demonstrating a socially unacceptable form of sexism. When whites discuss black culture in monolithic terms, they are demonstrating a socially unacceptable form of racism.
Because that's what's fair. Men deserve that same fairness.
"Toxic Masculinity" is hate speech. No other group would accept it.
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The problem is the feminist application of "toxic masculinity" which is a convenient gendered catch-all designed to discredit anything that they find excessively male-ish.
Yes, masculinity exists. That doesn't need to be said. Femininity also exists. It's in the analysis that things go off the rails. A comparable misuse of "femininity" as a concept would be a panel of misogynists sitting on a panel discussing the fact that toxic femininity is destroying the world, because, for example, women don't rise up against dictators as readily as men. Or because women just don't function the way we want them to.
Or let's imagine a group of white men talking about why toxic blackness is a problem in rap music. Are rap lyrics violent? Yes. Have they ever inspired violence? Possibly yes. That said, we still find a white male panel on "toxic black culture" distasteful, despite the protestations of white supremacists who will cry, "but we're just telling the truth!"
Google "toxic masculinity" and tell me that it is not being used to demonize and marginalize men. Tell me that it is not designed to make the idea of male cultural spaces appear invalid and unacceptable. It is a dangerous misuse of a valid idea (masculinity).That is why Toxic Masculinity as a concept is negative.
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No, there is not a feminist position on toxic femininity, as it's more or less heresy in feminism to speak ill of another woman's choices –– unless a woman rejects feminism. "Hyper-masculine" and "machismo" are not a loaded slur designed to discredit communities and kinds of culture, unlike toxic masculinity; plus I reject your notion that mainstream social scientists are making sweeping generalizations about the black community's hyper-masculine-ism, and if they were to, I'm sure they would be complementary or neutral, which is the opposite of the feminist response to "toxic masculinity."
There is no such thing as toxic masculinity, just as there is no such thing as n***** culture or Jew gold! It is loaded rhetoric designed to discredit males and maleness. If you want to talk dispassionately about violence as being something that males commit more acts of than women, fine, but when you want to talk about something pathological that is unique to a biological group and that group's culture, your rhetoric and logic is lowering to the level of white supremacists.
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It's about fairness in rhetoric. We can look at statistics and claim accurately that one group of people are more likely to commit a crime than another group, but we don't use that to create some conceptual framework through which we pathologize an entire population and sub-culture. That's the rhetorical domain of white supremacists.
And yes, the bias of feminism also shows in the fact that the normal feminist conception of maleness is not merely violent, but violent in a way that is mindless and purely destructive. If the rendering of men and maleness were more balanced and reasonable, I wouldn't object to the pointing out of male failings and excesses, which currently is the only thing that feminists will reliably attribute to men.
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But here's the problem: violence is inherent to blackness. It's just a fact of life.
See what I did there? The problem is the rhetoric, which provides a slippery slope of othering and stigmatizing. People are to be judged as individuals, not as inherently dangerous and pathological because they're from this group or that. That, if anything, is what the twentieth century has taught us.
Whether or not there is some truth at the core of some generalizations is beside the point. The problem is the rhetoric, which has the exact same flavor and logic of that which is espoused by the KKK to demonize and marginalize whole groups of people in a way that has a veneer of intellectual seriousness.
Forget "the truth." This time, we're talking about the language.
There are inherent consequences to saying that one group of people is inferior or dangerous as compared to another. We no longer accept that kind of thought and expression because it is disruptive to equity and the ability for individuals to be judged on their merits as individuals. It is no longer perceived as credible and civil, except when it is repurposed by feminism, in which case it can be printed in the New York Times and can be taught at Ivy League schools.
That's what this is about. NOT mothers and fathers and male violence.
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Whether or not there is some truth at the core of some generalizations I think is beyond the point. The problem is the rhetoric, which has the exact same flavor and logic of that which is espoused by the KKK to demonize and marginalize whole groups of people in a way that has a veneer of intellectual seriousness.
There are inherent consequences to saying that one group of people is inferior or dangerous as compared to another. That's what toxic masculinity says. It's inappropriate for one group to tell another group that they shouldn't be able to gather in a homogenous way or create a culture that feels appropriate for them. But that's the standard application of the premise of "toxic masculinity."
The relationship between males and violence is worthy of real study. "Toxic Masculinity" as it is most often invoked represents ideological psuedo-science and loaded language indistinguishable in its form and purpose to common hate speech.
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This was a comment your pal Whitey made five hours ago:
He's a feminist troll and you're an idiot. I want the left to play by the same rules and demonstrate some consistency. That's why I compare toxic masculinity to hate speech, because it demonstrably relies on the same logic. I'm not actually offended by hate speech or by "toxic masculinity" but it's interesting to point out the basic similarities between the two ideas. What even is your point?
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You actually don't know what I believe. The truth would probably surprise you.
Another thing you don't know how to do is debate. Because if you did, you would recognize the usefulness of appropriating positions that you potentially don't fully agree with to make an impactful point. Which is what I did when I wrote the OP that someone liked well enough to sticky. All you did was yell at someone on the internet.
I'll bet you've never persuaded anyone of anything on here.
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Also, I'll just add that I wrote the OP. It's weird to be called ideologically impure in my own stickied thread because I disagreed with a feminist.
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And since you had no credible rebuttal you tried a lazy ad hominem attack?
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"Manifesto" has kind of a pejorative Eliot Rodger-ish vibe, which is why I thought it was an attack.
I misunderstood. My bad.
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