How does about the fact that most TBPers view PPD as a red dominated sub which isn't worth debating in?

pakleader · 2016-01-28T02:38:52+00:00

B/c conversations go like this.

Bloop - i found this study.

Terp - feminazi publication! women lie! can't trust self-report!

Bloop - Ok

The end.

Terp - study i found, ~okcupid~

bloop - but it's self report and you said-

terp - AWALT!

The end

apumpkinpi · 2016-01-27T22:08:42+00:00

I can only speak from personal experience, but I was really interested in debating here when I first heard about this community. I enjoy debate and I enjoy talking to people with very different beliefs to my own.

Or at least I usually do. I lost interest very quickly. I responded to a claim someone made, and I cited a few academic journals and studies that found the opposite to be true. Instead of talking about any points that I made directly, talking about the credibility of a source or the study itself, providing studies or journals that support the opposing opinion... I had all of my points blatantly ignored, the user tried to devolve it into "no it actually supports my information" type of discussion. It kind of made it clear that he didn't bother reading any of them, which was really disappointing in the context of a debate. I pointed out quotes from the studies showing that he was incorrect in his assumption, and asked him to back up his claim or explain exactly how the links I provided supported his original claim. He did not do this and instead derailed the discussion to be about how I was clearly autistic. I tried to point out that autistic or not is totally irrelevant to the point I was making and that he should get back on topic, but it was a totally lost cause and the guy PMed me a raging boner instead while stubbornly insisting that I must be autistic instead of talking about anything of substance.

I don't think that saying someone is autistic is an insult in itself, but saying so in attempt to discredit everything someone says is much like the people in online gaming who say "You're autistic" as the new "You're retarded" and I think from the context it was clearly intended that way. It's a thinly veiled attempt to insult someone while trying not to look like an asshole for doing so. That was just one user, but I did find it questionable that this was okay. A community where that is considered an acceptable form of debate is no one that I wish to waste my effort on. I prefer actual debates, not a pissing contest of who can be a more dismissive asshole and jumping through hoops to avoid any meaningful discussion.

I have expressed this frustration on TBP, and others replied that they had similar experiences where every attempt at discussion was met with arbitrary dismissal and fruitless discussion. This may also only be a few isolated cases that all happened to reply to me, and I cannot verify the quality of their arguments. I'm inclined to believe that it is a problem due to my experience and reluctance to post often as a result of it.

Trying to debate with people who have no desire to have a real debate is draining. To be fair, maybe looking for more rigorous debate on the internet is extremely misguided. It could take a lot of effort to make a meaningful reply or opening statement, and that really is not for everyone (or even most people). It is asking a lot to be held to that standard, and I don't think that is particularly reflective of TRP. It is hard to find someone willing to put in the effort anywhere.

Now maybe this place is more for simply discussing different opinions, but I have been downvoted for replying for stating my personal experience or opinions... when specifically asked for it. The fake internet points are irrelevant, it's the fact that even when specifically asked for it, my reply is not listened to so what is the point in contributing anything at all? No one seems to actually want to interact in a meaningful discussion, and that goes beyond people not looking to have their opinions changed.

terminator3456 · 2016-01-27T22:46:46+00:00

I used to post a lot more here on PPD. Then I realized that lots of posters here, nearly exclusively from the TRP side, would talk about their mental illnesses and just general life shitiness and it made me feel...sad.

So I stopped.

the_wandering_mind · 2016-01-27T18:38:24+00:00

Hmmm...wow. There is a lot wrapped up in that consent discussion. A lot. The OP, I think, did a good job of setting up the background for the problem (how fear of conflict makes it tricky to give a "hard" no, and fear of slut-shaming makes it tricky to give a hard "yes"), and prompting both sexes on how things could get better.

I have to say, u/Xemnas81, that your response was pretty one-sided and dropped many of the important subtleties of the situation. I mean, I can tell you're really frustrated by that situation. I can tell that you look at it and say "how the fuck am I supposed to navigate this situation?". On the one hand, you want to respect a genuine "no", but on the other you're going to feel like a total chump if you give up after a "no" and it turns out it wasn't actually a "no". And then you perceive that other guys ignore the "no" and get laid.

Yeah, that's frustrating. I think your response went over the top, though, and failed to recognize the problems that the women are genuinely dealing with on the other side. It comes off as essentially blaming the women for their own situation, which is simply inaccurate. They are products of history and human frailty, just as we all are.

Now, I would hope that a BP reader would have the sensitivity and understanding to hear that frustration and empathize with what you're dealing with. I would hope that a BP reader would thus appreciate that you're not really a rape apologist, you're just overwhelmed by the situation and struggling with how to handle it, just as the women are struggling on their side.

I don't think you're in a great position to criticize that reader in this regard, though. They're only failing to do what you failed to do first in your post, which is to identify with the humans on the other side; identify with them as humans struggling with a complicated, emotional human problem that involves tricky trade-offs in the current environment.

That sort of failure is, I think, the cause of most of what you are complaining about in this post. First, the same failure is at the heart of TRP; it simply could not exist without placing women in the position of the Other, because it would not be so appealing to men wounded and confused by interacting with them. The content of RP posts/comments here often make it very clear that the poster has no interest in acknowledging and valuing the struggles of women as feeling human beings in the way that the poster acknowledges and values the struggles of men.

To non-RP people, this, naturally, makes those posters seem...well, like jerks. They notice the lack of any interest in the human problems of women, and it makes it hard for them to generate any desire to interest themselves in the human problems of the poster.

This problem is not limited to RP/BP relations, of course, and (again, of course) it can also happen in reverse. But since it is a fallacy to justify one's own failings based on those of others, the fact that some women act like jerks towards men simply does not justify doing the same in reverse.

I would encourage everyone (including myself, goodness knows I have my own failings in this regard) to resist the temptation to respond to perceived asshattery in kind. Try, instead, to understand the situation behind the asshattery, identify with the human, and try to have a discussion.

hyperrreal · 2016-01-27T19:28:08+00:00

I'm changing the tag of this post to Question for Bluepill, because this thread is rapidly becoming a circlejerk.

sublimemongrel · 2016-01-28T01:40:45+00:00

It's really annoying that nobody follows the sidebar. That would probably help a lot. Not that it would help the discussions to be more productive, but at least be more civil.

I'm BP, and nearly every time I comment in PPD, I get down voted (even sometimes when I'm agreeing with a RPer's point), which is against the rules, and less frequently, personally attacked, also against the rules.

Now I'm not saying that BPers don't do this, but tbh I wouldn't really know because I'm assuming they aren't the ones down voting me. I try to follow the rules of the sub (I'm not always perfect) but it gets really frustrating when lots of others don't seem to want to.

TheChemist158 · 2016-01-27T18:32:36+00:00

Is anyone else frustrated by the fact that TRP is accused of being irrational yet many Bluepillers seem to not even consider PPD worth debating?

No. That seems like a logical conclusion. If you decide that TRP is irrational, then it makes sense that you would feel debating them is a pointless endeavor. If a guy believes in Jesus on pure faith, has no evidence or rationale to defend it, it doesn't make sense to debate him. Debates (ideally) rely on logic and reason. So if the other side doesn't use logic or reason to find a conclusion, debating them is kinda pointless. This is all assuming the initial premise of TRP being irrational is true. I'm just saying, that statement makes logical sense.

it is impossible for TBP and TRP to agree with each other, when they both regard morality from different perspectives. A lot of these debates are matters of ethics.

Some are, but most don't seem to be. Looking through the newest threads here, there's threads criticizing the community/mods of TBP (this thread, and the one about the Anais Nin quote), a discussion about a book on gender difference, a post on the issues with rape stats, a question about alternative theories, and asking how blues view the reds' field reports. Just a random sampling, but none of these are really talking about ethics, more factual stuff.

If TRP are bigots, TBP are moral authoritarians.

Now, I want to preface this by saying that I do not speak for everyone on TBP. I've gotten into nasty arguments there where I was on the accused rape apologist end. So I get that some members there aren't into debating ethics. But I am. And one of my biggest gripes with TRP is that they aren't. It's not that they are biggest, it's that they are amoral. And proud about it too. And that rubs me wrong, because amoral talks and guides (such as the "how to emotionally abusing and manipulate a woman into abortion" guide) lead to immoral actions (like emotionally abusing and manipulating women into abortions). Why else post them, but to have people follow them? I'd be more than happy to talk to reds about ethics from a peer to peer perspective, not an authoritative one. But alas, they are amoral (isn't virtually every crook amoral? The guy that steals cars for drug money is only acting in his own self interest, just like TRP suggests). They aren't interested in debating ethics at all, it seems.

I wouldn't pay much attention to r/thebluepill. It's a sub full of people that are not interested (at that point in time anyway) in debating or taking TRP seriously.

RareBlur · 2016-01-27T20:31:46+00:00

I did think your response was kinda funny. At least I read it as you were making fun of the OP's described situation. I don't really know anything about Chile so I didn't have any comment. I did wonder if the OP might be exaggerating a little.

This is one of the most recent posts. It is literally a circle jerk about how shitting red and crap this sub is.

p.s. if anyone is "shitting red and crap" please see a doctor.

JumboDumboh · 2016-01-28T02:06:47+00:00

in my short experience here it has been overwhelmingly dominated by so called redpillers. With a few who on some level agree with the redpill mythos but see themselves as not redpillers. Then one self identified redpiller who seems to be starting to see through it. and maybe a person who might actually be considered a blue piller at about a 1/10 ratio.

Transleithanian · 2016-01-28T03:25:29+00:00

How does about it? It does indeed about.

More seriously, it's an utter waste of time to debate TRPers for the same reasons that it's an utter waste of time to debate creationists. Most prominently, you cannot reason someone out of a position they did not reason themselves into.

2016-01-28T04:59:15+00:00

It is irrational attempting to debate because as much as a lot TRPers accuse women of hamstering, they hamster hardest.

Even when you make sense or establish a point, they end it with "oh well you're different". "Oh well you're the exception". "Oh well that's not my experience". There is absolutely no debating with someone who resorts to insisting you are an "exception" when you, in fact, prove them wrong.

If the conversation isn't going their way, then they literally start accusing you of all kinds of scenes and situations that had absolutely no mention in your comments. You can talk about how your SO helps you with the groceries and in a few sentences they'll conjure some story about how you're going to cheat on him with the Chad you've been alpha widowed by six years ago and bear his child while surviving off your SO's beta bux. It's amazing how developed and intricate their stories get.

lauren_collins · 2016-01-28T00:47:55+00:00

I'll be honest: I'm not proud of posting here. I consider RP to be morally wrong. Engaging with people who believe in it is at best lame and at worst giving credibility to a pretty hate filled group of men.

That's said, pulling your quote as evidence of RP rape apology is a bit of a stretch.

betterdeadthanbeta · 2016-01-27T18:14:41+00:00

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belletaco · 2016-01-27T22:01:07+00:00

Expecting TBP to debate TRP is like expecting a liberal Bernie Sanders meme junky to actually seriously consider any sort of political stance taken by Donald Trump.

They don't even bother to consider Trump's plans on things. Just share a few awful sound bites here and there, funny memes that make him look like an idiot, calling him a racist because he wants to stop undocumented citizens from entering the US and believes that taking refugees who could be potentially part of US's enemies is a threat to the nation. No one is considered with discussing and debating Trump's outlook; they just want to CRUSH him.. Bernie Sanders promises a ton of free shit and idealistic goals and people love him.

Note: I am not a Trump supporter; Just really similar dynamics going on.

wtknight · 2016-01-27T18:18:18+00:00

I think it's just the realization that most Blue Pillers have regarding the futility of Internet debate. I am venturing to guess that most Blue Pillers have tried their luck debating on PPD, failed to convince a single Red Piller of the ridiculousness and potential harm of TRP beliefs, and promptly left. The truth is that you're never going to convince anybody to change their views about anything by arguing on the Internet, and most likely not by arguing in real life either. It takes life experiences to change people's views. Frankly, I just come here to try out expressing some of my own ideas when it comes to relationships and sex, and to see what kind of new ones TRP comes up with, because I realize the futility of convincing anyone of anything on here.

2016-01-27T17:56:55+00:00

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Xemnas81 · 2016-01-27T21:40:34+00:00

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the_wandering_mind · 2016-01-27T18:27:00+00:00

Is anyone else frustrated by the fact that TRP is accused of being irrational yet many Bluepillers seem to not even consider PPD worth debating? Believe it or not, I see merits in the Blue Pill perspective-given most Reds and Purples were once blues…but it's really difficult to debate with an opponent who doesn't even consider your viewpoint worth listening to once.

Yes I find it frustrating, but not really surprising. Like you, I see some merit to BP thinking, at least in an ideal world. The reality is, it may or may not work with an individual person, but at the macro level all bets are off. As a former Catholic, I completely understand the moral dilemma for many BP folks, but as you put it, Morality doesn't have much of a place in discussions that lump men and women into one large group each. BP gets upset by AWALT, because they see it as an accusation that ALL women are sluts/whores/manipulative/etc. Well, in my mind, there is a kernel of truth there, but at the individual level its a lot more complicated. My wife HAS THE CAPABILITY of being a slut/whore/manipulative bitch, but I don't judge her based on that latent trait. Its how she present herself to me and in our relationship that matters, but it is ALWAYS a good idea to keep in mind that no matter how well we are getting along today, tomorrow the environment may change and she may start heading down the path of manipulative bitch. That "change" would have to be pretty drastic to take the woman I'm married to and have known for years down that path. Thing is, in the past I didn't recognize those changes for the damage they would cause down the road. Now? I do my best to head them off at the pass, BEFORE the change is already taken hold.

So I see BP constantly dragging Marco level conversations down to the micro level (individual), and that simply won't work. Macro is about absolutes, while micro is about all those folks that defy the macro level assessment. In other words, this is exactly how I'd filter a prospective mate: pass the macro well enough, and we can start investigating the micro.

2016-01-27T18:28:15+00:00

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Xemnas81 · 2016-01-27T19:16:19+00:00

Well, this is a red-pill dominated sub. So they're not wrong there. I don't see how that makes it not worth debating in though.

abacuz4 · 2016-01-27T20:33:35+00:00

How does one accused of being a neo-Nazi for liking war films prove their innocence without bowing down on their beliefs?

Has this happened to, like, anyone? Ever? Your link has nothing to do with this question, did you perhaps link the wrong thing?

caesarfecit · 2016-01-27T20:47:30+00:00

I see the Red vs Blue debate a lot like capitalism vs socialism. And ironically, both Red and Blue have elements of both sides in their arguments.

Bloopers share with the socialists a desire to optimize for equality and a rejection of traditional values, while the Terpers rebel against a systemically unjust system.

Terpers share with the capitalists a desire to optimize for individual freedom and reject herd mentality, while the Bloopers view the Terpers as angry outsiders who will throw the baby out with the bathwater and ignore the consequences of their belief system.

And like capitalism vs socialism, the debate gets poisoned when one side stops debating in good faith, or the other starts jockeying for power rather than trying to seek truth.

The other irony is that the sane middle ground isn't that hard to find. Henry George found it in capitalism vs. socialism over 100 years ago, and his arguments were so persuasive that he turned robber-barons into reformers. Sadly he's all but forgotten today.

Iwanttoliveinspace · 2016-01-28T02:26:39+00:00

Left-wingers tend to never engage in debate

TheSonofLiberty · 2016-01-27T23:32:06+00:00

Reds might be more willing to change their minds if blues didn't call them stalkers, creeps, and knew why women didn't like them.

Why even try to debate in good faith if the other person is going to act like a typical high school teenage girl?

TBPers also view PPD as a red-dominated sub because they think anyone currently arguing against them must be red-pill. Its happened to me multiple times from different bpers despite having this flair, despite not agreeing with everything rpers say, and despite being banned from their rp subreddit 3 years ago.

midnightvulpine · 2016-01-27T23:34:07+00:00

It comes down to the root of things. Since TBP isn't a sub based on a specific ideology, with people who aren't devoted to it in the way TRP is, most of them won't be interested in grinding the trenches. At least, that's how I see it. I haven't been on TBP in a while, but that's how I am. I poke about PPD for amusement. I do look to say what I mean and mean what I say with debatable success, but I pass over a lot to threads because they don't interest me. Or I don't see a point in weighing in. Or I just don't have enough of an opinion. I suspect some others are the same way.

Bekazzled · 2016-01-29T12:39:39+00:00

Believe it or not, I see merits in the Blue Pill perspective-given most Reds and Purples were once blues…but it's really difficult to debate with an opponent who doesn't even consider your viewpoint worth listening to once.

That's why I'm here, Xemnas!

Seriously, I know that less people from TBP come here than other pills. We saw it in the mods statistics from the last two years.

I'm BP in my flair but like TRP and other subs, there are different people with different perspectives within the sub.

I like to check this out to listen and contribute. I've had my opinion challenged a few times on certain things. It's also good because it makes me realize people from "the other side" or whatever really are just people. Each RPer has a different perspective, each BPer has a different perspective... and same with MGTOW (who I wish would contribute here more often btw).

bromance946 · 2016-01-27T18:38:59+00:00

PPD is unbalanced in favor of Red. It's been that way since I first started reading, about five months ago. That being said, it's nowhere near as bad as FeMRAdebates, mainly because the latter takes itself too seriously and tries to set itself up as a more structured and objective environment, but fails.

I didn't see any rape apologia in your post, Xem. It's the same thing I thought myself, after seeing comments like this, on the same day.

The response is, there's a risk-reward trade off for men between turning her on and committing sexual assault, and every man has to navigate that on his own. I would think every man would err on the side of caution in such cases, unless he was absolutely sure that her "no" was not a real "no", and even then be caught in having potential responsibility of committing a sexual offense.

2016-01-27T18:25:38+00:00

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2016-01-27T18:34:57+00:00

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2016-01-27T17:59:41+00:00

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Title	How does about the fact that most TBPers view PPD as a red dominated sub which isn't worth debating in?
Author	Xemnas81
Upvotes	14
Comments	157
Date	January 27, 2016 5:50 PM UTC (10 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/42ynlc/how_does_about_the_fact_that_most_tbpers_view_ppd/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/how-does-about-the-fact-that-most-tbpers-view-ppd.276649 https://theredarchive.com/post/276649

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