Toxic masculinity does not exist , because no behavior is exclusive to just one gender

bluestjuice · 2022-12-29T23:33:14+00:00

It seems pretty clear that you don’t understand what toxic masculinity means.

Masculinity and femininity describe sets of behaviors for these groups that are expected and upheld by society. Toxic masculinity specifically describes behaviors that are assigned to a masculine ideal but are harmful and damaging.

Relative_Bee8356 · 2022-12-29T21:57:04+00:00

Just once it would be nice if someone posting about "toxic masculinity" bothered to learn what the term actually means.

"Toxic masculinity" does not describe specifically male behaviors. It describes a set of beliefs about how men should behave. The major one is "masculinity is mandatory for all men" and the rest define masculinity in ways that are toxic -- violent and incapable of emotional connection or strong emotions other than anger.

Worth mentioning that the term actually originated in the mythopoetic men's movement as a way to talk about male mental health. Y'all always seem to blame it on academic feminists, who use it but certainly did not invent it.

Lanzienator · 2022-12-29T23:18:58+00:00

Toxic masculinity is when men don't wash their own asshole, don't recycle, or resort to physical violence because they think acting that way makes them more masculine, or makes them seem like "real" men.

It has nothing to do with the things you mentioned. Your definition is incorrect.

despisedlove2 · 2022-12-30T02:01:00+00:00

No.

Toxic masculinity does exist. Toxic femininity also exists.

People who claim that one exists while the other doesn't are usually exhibits of toxic <their gender>.

People who think that there are no differences between the two genders are either delusional, or just having a good time.

I hope you are having a good time.

fiftypoundpuppy · 2022-12-29T21:56:18+00:00

You should have defined what exactly you think "toxic masculinity" actually is in your OP for the purposes of this debate.

KayRay1994 · 2022-12-29T23:32:45+00:00

i mean there are masculine traits and feminine traits - neither are exclusive to any gender though generally males tend to have more masculine traits and females tend to have more feminine traits, given, they’re mostly established by social norms but point is - there is an established set of traits dubbed as masculine, and a set of traits dubbed as feminine - regardless of the person with these traits.

With that out of the way, toxic masculinity is real, that’s, of course, not to say that masculinity in itself is toxic cause that’s never what the term meant (i mean you’d think “toxic” before the word masculinity would be enough to indicate that it isn’t inherent to masculinity), but I digress - toxic masculinity exists, the same way any set of traits can become toxic if taken to their darkest extreme.

velvetalocasia · 2022-12-29T21:54:55+00:00

So you say masculinity does not exist?

TheCounsellingGamer · 2022-12-30T04:44:46+00:00

I feel like a lot of people don't really understand what is meant by toxic masculinity. It's not really about individual behaviours as such, it's more about the beliefs about how men should behave. For example the phrase "real men don't cry" is an example of toxic masculinity, as it's perpetuating the harmful belief that men shouldn't feel sadness or fear. Toxic masculinity says that it's more acceptable for a man to be angry than sad. Another example would be the idea that if a man is still a virgin at 25 he's pathetic, low value, etc; as it ties a human being's worth to whether they've had sex.

Toxic masculinity does exist but not in the way people think it does. It's more of a systematic thing than an individual thing.

ManWazo · 2022-12-30T03:30:40+00:00

To be precise , we cannot delegate a set of behavioral issues to one gender while maintaining the belief that both men and women are capable of the same things and thoughts.

We can because those are two different modalities. There's a difference between actual behaviour which we can measure and potential behaviour which exist in theory but is not quantified.

For example, everyone has the possibility of commiting suicide but in the actual world men commit it more frequently. So your argument against toxic masculinity would be like saying "men don't commit suicide more often because women commit suicide too". Yes both men and women have the possibility to commit suicide but "toxic masculinity", refers to the actual world where there are behiviours statistically more associated with men.

In the end, your argument fails because of a logical error. You should read about modal logic instead of arguing using your emotions.

tinycloudsinmymind · 2022-12-29T22:18:09+00:00

Toxic masculinity in fact does exist because masculinity exists.

The patriarchal system that has been in place since the beginning of time. Men have often had to suppress their emotions because it was seen as feminine by other men who created the stigma causing them to see anything “feminine” in a man as uncomfortable and bizarre because women were always treated as second class citizens and were not respected. Those ideologies and stereotypes were carried from generation to generation.

Now men have always had “toxic masculinity” traits but now we are able to identify them because women are refusing to date men who aren’t emotionally intelligent or socially aware and we’re 100% fed up.

There are toxic women out there but the reason that there’s not a “toxic femininity” phenomenon is because men are the driving force behind the oppression of women. Not the other way around.

baresquad · 2022-12-29T22:02:09+00:00

Ehh, my masculinity’s pretty toxic from time to time. One example, I subconsciously do wrong by a lot of women simply because I know that I have something that they want and constantly get passes on behavior which I in turn use to my advantage.

That type of behavior might not be exclusive to men but I can recognize it for what it is. If it didn’t exist, I’d be a saint.

OkProfessional9405 · 2022-12-29T23:40:38+00:00

I mean I think it's clear we have a crisis with some young men (mostly raised by single woman) who have been taught to fear, ignore, hate, etc their masculine traits.

In most cases Toxic Masculinity is a confusingly named term to describe to a man who has had a lack of exposure to positive masculine expression. It would be more accurately described as 'feminized men unable to cope with their drive to be masculine'.

nastyfella · 2022-12-30T04:14:41+00:00

Toxic masculinity is real and women can be guilty of perpetuating it too. If a woman said “men don’t cry”, that is toxic masculinity.

Safinated · 2022-12-30T05:15:32+00:00

I see that you don’t understand what masculinity is, nor what adjectives are

-angels-fan- · 2022-12-30T06:41:59+00:00

My cowboy brother in law pretty constantly says that liking musicals and drinking anything other than beer or whiskey makes you a fxxxot.

Does this seem like reasonable things that are necessary to be masculine?

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Correct-Warthog-9061 · 2022-12-29T21:57:26+00:00

I think its deeper than that when u look at the big 10 personality traits. You see that men and women expierence the same traits, but to different degrees. For example, women probably get effected by negative emotions at more intense level then men. Men tend to expierence more aggressive behaviors, and more disagreeable personality traits. But these are generalities ofc

SoldierExcelsior · 2022-12-30T01:25:22+00:00

Hmm well do we even have genders anymore apparently we can be what ever we want.

Crubbery · 2022-12-30T11:20:05+00:00

Being "nice" never helped me get into a relationship, but it certainly helped keep them going.

Acrobatic_Computer · 2022-12-30T14:11:24+00:00

I think this entire topic of conversation is a shitshow because "toxic masculinity" is a massive motte and bailey.

When challenged it is generally used to mean basically "male gender roles which are bad for the individual and put on them by society/others", but when used in the wild generally means more like "a man who is being anti-social".

So in theory a man who doesn't express sadness is included, in practice it is used to describe aggressive people, and in doing so is used to shift the conversation from the former to the latter, and avoid dealing with pro-social expressions of masculinity which hurt individual men themselves, which falls outside how "toxic" is generally used. Is it toxic when someone puts aside their feelings to deal with someone else's? Is it "toxic" to put yourself at risk of injury to provide for your family?

"Toxic masculinity" on one hand sets forth that it is describing a very specific masculinity (hence the term), but then tries to get explicitly defined as something that runs as a undercurrent throughout multiple different conceptions of masculinity, which is where it becomes ambiguous (and switched between depending on what is convenient) as to if it is trying to talk about people who fall into a specific notion of being aggressive and anti-social, or if it is trying to describe ideas about masculinity in general.

Even in its more generalist form, nothing about the term or it's usage provides any great merit, so the steadfast defense of it comes across as being about enforcing language on people, rather than actually helping anyone or furthering discussion.

I don't think OP does a good service at responding to either of these usages, but people responding "oh, the real definition is" are just giving the bailey line.

If "toxic masculinity" were really trying to describe mainstream and general notions of masculinity that hurt men, then why do we get a slew of articles about how school shooters, who are breaking social norms and who we give license to police to kill if necessary, are examples of it, yet we don't have any articles about how this is an example of toxic masculinity, reinforcing notions of men being stoic and self-sacrificing? (And I know one could argue this isn't the best example, but I think the point that we don't actually discuss "toxic masculinity" in context of pro-social behaviors very often, if at all, is still effectively made.)

As a result I tend to find this discussion inadvertently really does boil down trying to tar all men, or at least men who disagree with the sort of gender studies / feminist project, with a big brush, "oh, your ideas about gender cause mass shootings" is a great way to dismiss criticism without a meaningful response. It also, I think, betrays that there is not really any actual intent behind it to help men.

localmicrodosechamp · 2022-12-30T18:39:14+00:00

that's not what toxic masculinity is

RGL137 · 2022-12-30T18:43:54+00:00

It’s just anti-men rhetoric masked in pseudo-intellectual gobbledygook. Notice how no one ever talks about “toxic femininity”? Toxic masculinity is a way to associate outlier undesirable behaviour (violence, rape, extreme bullying, etc) with everything linked to masculinity/manhood in an effort to demoralize and androgenize men.

The women and leftists that typically espouse this shit prefer a docile, obedient, low energy male population, and this is basically a psyop in order to dissuade men from adopting primarily “masculine” ideals or behaviours.

For example, “men don’t cry” is seen as “toxic masculinity” because leftists say it encourages men to bottle up their emotions which causes mental health problems. But actually “men don’t cry” is intended to make men remain stoic and in control of their emotions in the face of hardship. Women and leftists would rather you succumb to your emotions because it makes you easier to manipulate.

DavidSiddyCM · 2023-01-05T22:52:53+00:00

I think saying “toxic masculinity” is the equivalent of saying n_r or f_t . Its a hateful phrase

Title	Toxic masculinity does not exist , because no behavior is exclusive to just one gender
Author	Repulsive-Cupcake505
Upvotes	1
Comments	147
Date	December 29, 2022 9:48 PM UTC (3 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/zyhjs8/toxic_masculinity_does_not_exist_because_no/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/toxic-masculinity-does-not-exist-because-no.1145296 https://theredarchive.com/post/1145296

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