Why Is "Dread Game" Such A Hot Button?

2014-06-24T03:58:19+00:00

In perusing r/bluepill, it becomes very clear that they are highly agitated by "Dread Game". I think " Dread Game" is certainly a high-risk...

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Each person is only in it as far as they can get something out of it.

This is what I was responding to. Schopenhauer's views on love were quite a bit more nuanced than this. He felt that we could not help but fall in love and that falling in love was essentially biology tricking individuals into thinking that something that was actually for the benefit of the wider species was also of benefit to that individual.

And no, you wouldn't have to name each one individually, but you could name 10 major philosophers who felt that 'love' is actually selfishness and that still wouldn't prove your point, anymore than you think my naming 10 major thinkers who felt the opposite would prove mine, in your view.

People who disagree with you aren't necessarily idiots, is what I'm saying. If you're one of those people who thinks you've got the secret key to Truth and anyone who thinks differently is deluded and stupid, perhaps a debate sub isn't the best place for you.

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Why is dread game an issue?

Because it's a shitty and unnecessary tool used by shitty people. It's using someone's emotional investment in you against them for your own imaginary power struggle due to your rampant insecurity. It's neither healty, nor lasting (let's be real, people get tired of this and check out of the relationship pretty quickly).

And for a subreddit that tries SO hard to claim to be about self-improvement, it's a perfect example of NON self improvement and basically using cheap shortcuts. And like a house that's built using cheap shortcuts...it's going to come down pretty soon.

True self improvement would be addressing your insecurity, your imaginary power struggle, and become a secure person of worth. But that's harder.

It's just amazing that there exist people that would rather self-implode their relationship than actually self-improve.

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I don't know why this is hard to understand, people dislike abusive behavior, more so when it's purposefully employed and not incidental.

I think you're artlessly leading the witness here, you have a theory you want to discuss, and that is, people sub to /r/thebluepill, people with anti-TRP leaning in general, dislike "Dread Game" because it has been a secret weapon used by women on men, only it's called "Orbiter Game". God you make me hate myself for using these ridiculous words. So now that men have discovered how to use this weapon on women, those people hate it.

This is a completely batshit insane way to view the world, and you've assumed (1) that it's true women employ "Orbiter Game", and (2) subscribers of /r/thebluepill and anti-TRP in general condone if not endorse women using "Orbiter Game", therefore their visceral reaction at having the tables turned.

Respond to (1): Even going to the most ridiculous set of dating advice for women, ie The Rules, I can't find this "Orbiter Game". This is strictly a TRP observation. Women aren't telling other women you should totally get two or three "orbiters" to do -- I don't know, what is it that TRP think "orbiters" do for women? On the other hand, please contrast TRP's advice for men to collect women admirers as social proof. If a guy finds himself an "orbiter" (God my self-loathing beats me down every time I write that word), that is his doing and not anyone else's. Nobody is forcing him to be an "orbiter".

Respond to (2): people who sub to /r/thebluepill and anti-TRP people generally don't endorse manipulation of any kind in relationships, I have not seen any evidence that these people condone these tactics even when they result in the upper hand for the woman.

So, bollocks?

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I'm looking at this strictly from a behavioristic/game theory framework here.

Do you know why the tragedy of the commons is called a "tragedy?" Because, while each individual is pursuing an individually optimal strategy, resources are being wasted. Similar with the Prisoner's "dilemma."

We members of this thing called "society" have figured out this thing called "ethics." It involves considering good things, not only from a selfish perspective, but from a perspective inclusive of other people.

Without explaining all of that, because it can be a bit much for a monster like you to handle, I'll put it this way: you know how, in the iterated prisoner's dilemma (for an unknown number of iterations), the optimal strategy frequently involves cooperating? Life is like an iterated prisoners dilemma. Well, it's really a lot more complicated, but some of the reasons for following "ethics" are similar to the reasons for cooperating in the iterated prisoner's dilemma.

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You seem to be saying that it is immoral to even ask certain questions.

No, I just think you have to be amoral to not know the answers to these questions. Or a complete idiot.

It doesn't matter what the answers are, only a monster would even ask.

It totally matters what the answers are, but only a monster would need to ask.

"How do relationships really work?" is the RP question.

Isn't it "how can I make these stupid bitches do what I say?"

Once you have answers, what you do with the knowledge is a moral choice.

Is that why TRP has never had a moral discussion? Because they haven't come anywhere near the right answers?

"How does Dread Game work?" is an RP question, how you use the knowledge is a moral choice.

But you weren't asking "how does dread game work," you were asking "why do you guys hate dread game." Because it's immoral.

seeking the answer and misusing it are different things.

Not when the question is founded on immoral terms -- like the above, "how can I make these stupid bitches do what I say?" Asking that question invariably reflects an immoral mindset, doesn't it?

I know how to make explosive devices, but I've never made a bomb. It was pure idle curiousity that led me to research it. I can't really imagine ever needing to use the information.

I'm perfectly fine with that. But if you were to say you knew "how to bring a nation of infidels to its knees," I might have an issue.

Of course, you can't recognize when Dread Game is being used against you, if you don't know how it works. So it could be argued that the motives for suppressing the knowledge include keeping potential marks unaware.

I never really said don't talk about this behavior that you call "dread game." I just said to recognize that it's immoral. The TRP conversation isn't, "hey, who are those dark triad assholes, why are they doing this stupid immoral shit they call 'dread game,' and what should we know about it?" It's, "how do I keep these stupid bitches in their places, oohhh hey dread game? Dark triad shit? Sounds like fun. And TRP claims 'sexual strategy is amoral,' so I guess I'm good, right?"

TRP claims to be pushing knowledge. But its knowledge is false, and it actively works to erode morality in the process.

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Dread is part of relationships.

Yeah, I guess, but healthy ones work to correct that. Dread is a part of life, but that doesn't mean I can go around terrifying people all day long.

Treating the mechanics of relationships as a deep mystery when they aren't isn't morally superior, just willfully ignorant.

I am sick of you telling me that I'm advocating ignorance. Not once did I advocate anything that sounded vaguely like ignorance. Do not put the same words in my mouth one more fucking time. I am not saying we should treat the mechanics of relationships as a mystery. I am saying that we should recognize and consciously avoid instilling dread in one another.

Death is a part of life, but we try not to kill people, and in fact try to save their lives when possible. And there is something morally despicable in killing people, natural though death may be. Do you see the analogy?

Modern relationship theory tries to pretend that all communication is, or should be, explicitly verbal.

I've never heard of "modern relationship theory." And I have never heard anybody even vaguely suggest that "all communication is, or should be, explicitly verbal."

It's not, our consciousness is just a passenger riding on top of deeper processes, pretending to steer and occasionally actually succeeding.

Pause: are you saying that we have absolutely no control over our actions, and, because of that, we should go ahead and be dicks and implement dread game because, whatever, we're just a passenger, we're not really doing it? That doesn't even sound Red Pill stupid, that's its own unique brand of stupid.

the understanding of the process doesn't mean that you have to use it immorally, only that nobody can keep you from doing so, but you

Okay, let me explain this to you: using it is using it immorally. Nobody can keep you from doing so, but if you do, you are a bad person and you should be fucking ashamed of yourself.

It's the starkest of moral choices, what do you do when nobody else knows?

The right thing.

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The problem is it is completely useless.

How is the response "there are many other women not like that," to a complaint about a specific type of women completely useless?

I guess it's useless if you just want to bitch and vent and don't want to put in any effort to change anything. I suppose by that logic, it is useless to share diet secrets or work out tips with someone who is unhappy with being overweight?

staggering amount of the population

That's the thing. They're not. But if you subject yourself to certain environments and social niches, they appear to be. Thus the response: "NAWLT, expand your social circle."

why TRP strategies work so well for so many people

That's questionable.

The problem in my personal experience is that the amount of personal detachment needed to maintain it is soul-crushing.

And this is sad, which is very well why I would urge you to expand your social horizon so you can actually find someone with whom you don't have to be so detached.

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I tried the whole feminist blue pill thing.

huh, so did i. i engaged with some people who were unhappy about how dating worked - the whole "why do guys hit on me thing". being a guy and not terribly happy with having to do that so i don't spend the night with my right hand, i asked about what i could do that works better. Got a bunch of static and vague handwavey advice; later a friend said he thought i was trolling.

So, that doesn't work. and the respect thing doesn't work either. sure, you have to respect a partner, but that's lacking big chunks of how things work. not helpful.

And then you notice that people keep dating assholes; a few don't, but assholes seem to get a ton of attention. figuring that out changed my approach a bit, and i'm now somewhat red-tinted.

The interesting thing is that this isn't a mask; it more feels like waking up.

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I fully realize that the depth and breadth of my personal experiences may be lacking. However my conclusions are based on more than personal experience (rates of Domestic Violence and the like). Also 50% percent of marriages end in divorce. What portion of the remaining 50% are unhappy but choose not to divorce? How many non-marriage relationships end with "he was such a di k" or "she was such a b tch"? And what portion of people making those statements don't realize that they themselves were the jerk.

Look, I wish I could see "mostly non-assholes in successful relationships". I wish i could see 30% of relationships describes as such. Consider yourself lucky to have never seen a successful asshole. It's incredibly demoralizing to those of us who aren't assholes. As for upping my game, are you suggesting that I become one of the assholes. I have no desire to go that route.

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Then why are you with someone that you're not 100% attracted to that you can't please them enough for the man to use dread game. It goes like this if the man is felt attention and admired then theres no use for dread game but if he's not then he'll have to use it. The man cannot make the woman happy when she doesn't choose to be. But the man can choose to make himself happy instead. It is the woman's choice then to either be happy with the man or not without him. The man cannot suck up to the woman to try to convince her to be attracted to the man, only the woman can change this. We've been taught in the western world that it's ok if your woman doesn't want to have sex with you, cook for you, spend time with you. You can see it over at /r/deadbedrooms but suddenly it's not ok when the man suddenly finds an option that makes him more happy.

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you just accept that right?

I specifically said you move on if she still doesn't feel attracted to you. Not everyone is going to be attracted to you. Some people become attracted to others based on what they think the other person is, then find out what the other person actually is, and lose attraction. Some people get carried away with infatuation chemicals and realize there is no attraction without them.

Your partner losing attraction in you sucks, but it's not the end of the world. There's plenty of other fish in the sea.

It's insecurity that causes people to cling to the partner that is losing interest and resorting to shit like dread games as a pathetic and controlling attempt to coerce them back into "attraction."

The reality is, you can't do that, dread game or not. Dread game doesn't boost attraction, it boosts play acting. The person pretends to be attracted to you because the alternative of being suddenly alone is scary. But eventually, as dread game continues, that alternative begins to look not too shabby.

If someone is losing attraction, the best thing to do is to address it and try to find the root cause, and address the root cause. If that doesn't work, move on.

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You told me to move on? Isn't that worse?

I said if all else fails, move on.

The best solution to your wife not giving you enough attention is to figure out why it's happening, figure out the root cause(s), and form a joint strategy to fix it. Unfortunately this requires effort, tolerance, patience, and willingness to admit faults, or one's own contribution to the problem which is absent in a lot of people.

Maybe I still like my wife but she isn't giving me attention, I'd prefer to dread her than divorce her.

Presuming you've actually sought all other options, and genuinely tried to fix the situation (this is rarely the case), your marriage is dead.

This is a perfect example of what I said above: an insecure person clinging to a dying relationship and resorting to extreme and pathetic means to try to make the relationship at least mimic what it should be.

Some marriages fail. Even those with 10 years and children behind you. It's sad, but it's life.

Dread gaming isn't saving your marriage. It's putting a bandaid on the problem. It's fooling yourself. You know your wife is not truly attracted to you, you know she's not happy or satisfied, but you do it because you're so desperate for attention but too pathetic to actually find someone who will willingly give it to you without the coercion.

Eventually, either your wife will get sick of it or meet someone who doesn't use her emotional investment against her and leave you, or you will both settle for this illusion of a relationship, and live through a mildly satisfying marriage wishing you had something more.

You can't talk to your wife into making her attracted to you, they don't work that way.

That's not what figuring out the root cause of the problem is.

It's not, "You need to be more attracted to me."

It's, "I see this problem in our relationship, why is it occurring?"

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You do realize that many of us tried your model for relationships, did everything 'right', and it failed us spectacularly?

People are very poor judge of their own failings. When you listen to two sides of a failing relationship (friends, lovers, spouses) there are crazy disparities and distortions, people don't even remember the same event the same way. So, I don't trust anyone who said they did this exactly this way and it failed. I don't say this to denigrate people who say they've tried it this way and failed. I only mean you remember what you think you remember, and every act of recall further changes the event in our memory. There are self-proclaimed TRP people here, who have been on record saying they've been a nice guy. Judging from their posting history, they were anything but, in fact, they were a certifiable asshole. But, he's a nice guy, he believes it.

Women and men are equal, but not equivalent. Having two X chromosomes does not automatically make you a better person.

This is not controversial, it's not even what people fight about. I think this is like the 3rd or 4th time I've answered your simple question: people dislike Dread game because it's intentional abuse inflicted by the person who you trust to love you and not do such a shitty thing. If you don't like something done to you, don't do it to other people. Jesus why is this hard to grasp?

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Well then you're all over the place and I have no idea what this is about. Just 5 posts up you were all about how Dark Triad assholes have empathy but not sympathy blah blah

I literally get along better with my ex-wife now [...] and it's not by sabotaging her self esteem, either (if anything, I am more effective at validating and encouraging her confidence, because I now recognize when it is needed

Way to sell that Dread game magic there man. So you treat your ex-wife more positively now, and you have a better relationship with her now. Never apply for a job selling ice cream in August, you'll fuck it up.

'feminized' script for masculinity

I don't know what this is, or what it has to do with Dread game and why people dislike it. You are all over the place.

'founder effect' [...] were actively misogynistic and/or sociopathic. But [...] the core assertions and methods are morally neutral.

How can it be neutral? You are advocating doing something you don't like being done to you to another person. Don't give me that strategy is amoral crap. When it's done to a person by another person, there necessarily exists a moral judgment. The amoral crap is a cop-out.

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go lifting weights, spending time with your friends, maybe light flirting with the waitress in front of her

LOL! This is a cat, this is also a cat. One of this will kill you and drag your body up a tree. TRP guys come here and they are all like, no no, you get it all wrong, it's just about lifting and feeling good about yourself. Meanwhile back at the ranch, "women are dumb entitled hamsters fuckbuckets how do I fuck 'em and leave 'em?!"

No, go lifting by yourself when she's not paying attention to you is not dread. It's a snit. Flirting with the waitress, that's classy. Not. No, people don't do dread game all the time. When I go to my bookclub or have lunch with other women or buy new clothes I'm not running Dread Game. When people fall out of love ... well, I humbly put it to you that it's a big problem that needs more than Dread Game to resuscitate.

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[–]BaadKittehMiss me, bitches?1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Flirting with other women in front of your significant other is absolutely never justified. Taking care of yourself is a good idea for everyone, anytime, because it's good for you- if you only kick it up when you're flirting with other women and going out without your SO a lot, this doesn't foster security in the relationship that leads to greater closeness- it creates the insecurity that leads to clinginess and overly servile behavior, which most people are not comfortable with long term. You people can't understand that when attraction wanes in a relationship it's something to work on together, not the time to go completely selfish and make sure that no matter what, your fun isn't interrupted with silly things like deep relationship issues. This whole idea is basically saying that any problems with the actual relationship should be handled by the woman, alone, and make sure that everything stays just awesome for the guy while they work through them or they can add abandonment worry to the pile.

Red pillers do not accept relationships as an equal partnership with equal responsibility for its maintenance. You seem to think that your mere presence and perhaps your salary is all you need to contribute, unless it's the kind of attention you enjoy giving a woman, which seems to be entirely oriented around sex.

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yupp each and every single female is susceptible to emotional abuse.

Also:

Emotional abuse is a pretty wide term. The criminal law doesn't prohibit people from being rude, insulting and disrespectful to one another. The criminal law only enters when remarks become violent, threatening or they cause the complainant to fear for her or his safety. To use an example, the criminal law prohibits someone from uttering threats of death or bodily harm to another person. Threats could include, "you are making me so mad I am going to break your leg", or "I am going to slit your throat". If it is spoken with the intention of intimidating the recipient then it is a criminal offence, and the criminal court will punish the accused if it can be proven.

source

This ties into

As long as no one is forcing anyone else into anything and not breaking any laws then I believe nothing is wrong.

Have a good day

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[–]livinonthehedgeBlue Pill Man6 points7 points8 points 12 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

I think " Dread Game" is certainly a high-risk set of strategies, essentially you can't keep threatening to end the relationship without it eventually biting you in the ass.

That is not that all of a small reason to think TRP shouldn't be endorsing it.

But, as for other objections: Us over at the TBP believe that people in good relationships can resolve and compromise in constructive ways. This is provided that they are not unreasonable requests or irrational ideas. We see emotional coercion as a relationship ender. Whether it be IN the first action that you disagree with or will not tolerate OR in the manipulative response.

Examples as to what we would suggest:

-She is dressing in a way you do not like (neutral action => work on it). Either you talk to them about your feelings (rational response), or use "Dread Game" (irrational/negative response => break up with them).

-She is cheating on you (irrational/negative action => break up with them).

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Yeah, it does work. It's very difficult though, so be careful. Here's an example:

BOYFRIEND: I wish you wouldn't tie your hair up so much, it looks prettier when it's down.

me: ok!

Also dread game != break up.

Yes it does. Why on earth would I stay with a guy who is basically pretending to cheat on me? It would make him look like a giant classless retard which would make me sad, and I might wonder if he got whacked too hard in the head at lacrosse practice, but that shit would not fly. Don't want stupid games in your relationship? Don't play them yourself.

And finally which would you prefer, always having to talk when your SO crosses your boundaries or having your SO respect them without saying a word?

How am I supposed to know what a boundary is if you don't tell me? There's obvious ones like "don't steal things" and "don't cheat" (uh oh!) but the easiest way for me to find out that you hate it when I leave half eaten pizza in the common room is to say something like "don't leave pizza on the table in here overnight it attracts ants." after which your girlfriend will stop leaving pizza on the table because she doesn't want you to have to clean up her messes, problem solved.

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[–]throwred01Red Pill Man9 points10 points11 points 12 years ago* (68 children) | Copy Link

I'll tell you exactly why dread game is so important to the blue pill. Because up until now, dread game has been something only women did. But when they did it, it was called "having standards" or "making him work for it," and met with high-fiveing you-go-girl empowerment.

Dread game is about making it clear in no uncertain terms that if your partner fucks up by not meeting your standards, you are out the door.

And we all know this is something women do all the time. Said something wrong? She doesn't need you tonight, you're on the couch. Didn't get your promotion? Suddenly the hunky assistant is all she can talk about. Lose your job completely? Of course she's out the door.

I think everyone here knows on some level that dread game is how women approach their romantic relationships. But because it's men doing it, TBP can't handle it.

I think that is a fundamental issue TBP with TRP. Something I don't think a lot of red pillers quite get, is the fact that 90 percent of the stuff the red pill teaches you to do is exactly what women do. Dread game? Yep. Push pull? Oh, absolutely. Not communicating when you're attracted? That's a stereotype about women.

The difference is, it's men doing it. And men are presumed evil until presumed dead. And we're just doing it better. The blue pill doesn't like that we beat women at their own game. And we beat women hard... That's a joke.

[–]OfSpock7 points8 points9 points 12 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

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[–][deleted] 10 points11 points12 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I ... I think you may not be a very nice person. (And I mean this in the nicest of way. ^{^snerk} ) Nice people tend to know and hang with other nice people, via social reinforcement of in-group similar behaviors. People who don't steal tend to be friends with other people who feel the same way about stealing. People with dubious morals will hang with other people of dubious morals because there is no contradictory standards, and generally people who don't steal can't be friends with people who steal.

If you find yourself meeting/knowing lots of jerks (like these women), perhaps ask yourself, am I a jerk?

You've mentioned reality shows like Jersey Shores and Princesses of LI. Those are heavily scripted shows cast with famewhore types, and everyone knows the camera adds ten pounds of douchebaggery. I've never met anyone in real life who acts this way. And somehow, everyone you meet is like this? I ... I don't doubt you but it's like you and I live in different universe.

[–]BaadKittehMiss me, bitches?0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

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Nah, I'm sure you've had far douchier lines given to you.

I was heavily involved in polyamory for several years, including being part of an organization that promotes it. That means I don't just have one anecdote. I have many personal experiences, combined with the personal experiences I have observed, combined with those which have been relayed to me, combined with the general culture of polyamory I experienced.

If you were right, we would be on opposite sides of this debate.

And thank you for your side note (?) on the way I lived my life for more than a decade. But when I say radical feminist, I mean it more radical in a "the patriarchy will never end until the state is destroyed" sense.

As a "side note" of my own, the idea that there is a distortion of feminism has become absurd. Feminism is utterly at war with itself right now. Over sex, over slutwalk, over trans, over men. There is no one sect that is not being called a distortion of feminism by all the other sects.

Feminism is a house divided and sinking ship.

[–]BaadKittehMiss me, bitches?3 points4 points5 points 12 years ago* (4 children) | Copy Link

Does all of your relationship information come from sitcoms? I've been married for almost 13 years to a man I've been in a relationship for 16 years, and we have fought. Oh hell yes, we have fought. Never once have I made him sleep anywhere other than our bed, or vice versa. Neither did my mother do this. If either of us chose not to come to bed, we made the decision on our own, and sometimes it did happen.

Neither have I ever heard of a woman in real life immediately turning her attention elsewhere due to a lack of raise, or leaving as soon as a job is lost. Sometimes financial hardships can ruin a relationship, but it's because of how the people treat each other while they struggle, not because the woman decides to "trade up".

I can use some silly, fictional examples of how men are fucked up that come from the media too- what about first wives, who have to fight for their child support while a man blows his money *on some brainless gold digger barely older than his kids? What about the dedicated housewife sitting at home crying over the dinner that's getting cold while her husband "works late" at fucking his secretary on his desk?

Do all of those things happen once in awhile? Sure. There's always a nugget of truth in the center of a stereotype. But none of them are typical behaviors or common situations. They're represented in an exaggerated way in our entertainment because they have high drama potential. Your argument sounds utterly ridiculous.

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That is some high brow academic thinking you got goin on. I don't know how you analyze people's emotional reactions in a depersonalized sense or people, for that matter, in a depersonalized sense. An orbitor doesn't accept "any condition" to maintain "equity", that in an of itself destroys equity, they accept "any condition" to maintain access to their hearts desire. I guess you could say dread game is similar, in that both people on the receiving end of these games, orbiter or dread, feel used, uncared for and manipulated. And in that sense some people anger may come from experiences they've had being on the receiving end.

However, your question was why BPers react with such anger when dread game is mentioned and for them its likely different. They don't see the world in power dynamics or their emotions the result of preprogrammed responses to other's behavior. They don't even believe orbitor game is a real thing. And why would they? Unless you've experienced it it sounds pathological. There is no girl forum for women to pick up tips on how to shameless collect and exploit orbits. The term itself only exists in male forums to the best of my knowledge. However, if that term took off and became widely recognized as a method of female manipulation and a female came into thebluepill asking how best to keep and manipulate an orbit, I'm sure they would experience the same level, if not more, outrage. This is simply because is the BP worldview people should not act that that, its callous, selfish, and damaging to others. They don't think people should play games in relationship, and the fact that your methodically thinking it out, makes you evil.

[–]BaadKittehMiss me, bitches?0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

The term only exists in male forums because males are the ones putting themselves in "orbiter" position, completely independent of encouragement to do so from these women, and they perceive basically anything "nice" they do for the woman in question while in this orbiter position they chose as manipulation on her part when she doesn't respond with affection or sex. They willingly put themselves in the position to be used and willing keep doing the favors (or whatever) they are bitter about, but blame the woman anyway because she doesn't either give them what they "deserve" or shut them completely down and out, which is apparently what they need to quit orbiting (because their own self esteem isn't enough motivation).

Then, to top it all off, women who do have the self esteem to break out of toxic relationships are the most reviled of all in the red pill sphere, because when they go for what they think they "deserve" it is hypergamy.

It's ironic that red pillers seem to consider themselves so intelligent when the basic, obvious motivations behind everything are so transparent and pitiful to the rest of us.

[–]cuittlerಠ_ಠ0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]tryin2figureitoutRP male since before it was cool-1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

I don't think evil is hyperbolic at all. I think that's exactly how BPers see it. I see a BP thread once asking If RPers should be put on a pre-emptive sex offerenders list. I don't think they were joking.

I wouldn't really call it a relationship at that point, atleast not one a traditional one based on mutual concern. More like a seduction, or exchange of services. Its I want xyz from you so I have to do abc.

I wouldn't say I use dread game. Conversations and relationships are fluidic and trying to behave out of a playbook has its own set of problems and can blow up in your face. People also get better at sniffing out bullshit the older they get. I would say, however, that since my longest relationship ended, several years ago, I'm much more likely to say fuck it and leave or not give in to someone else's demands. Which I guess is what dread game is all about, but I don't think you can fake it.

[–]cuittlerಠ_ಠ-1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

I see a BP thread once asking If RPers should be put on a pre-emptive sex offerenders list. I don't think they were joking.

Your first mistake is taking anything on TBP seriously.

I wouldn't really call it a relationship at that point, atleast not one a traditional one based on mutual concern. More like a seduction, or exchange of services. Its I want xyz from you so I have to do abc.

As long as your partner is aware of that and fine with that arrangement, sure go for it.

I would say, however, that since my longest relationship ended, several years ago, I'm much more likely to say fuck it and leave or not give in to someone else's demands. Which I guess is what dread game is all about, but I don't think you can fake it.

Is that really Dread Game in TRP sense? Why is it called Dread Game if it's only about asserting your boundaries? Regular people just call that "asserting your boundaries".

The only source material I've been able to find about Dread Game described it like this:

Women respond viscerally in their vagina area to unpredictability, mixed signals, danger, and drama in spite of their best efforts to convince themselves otherwise. Managing your relationship in such a way that she is left with a constant, gnawing feeling of impending doom will do more for your cause than all the Valentine’s Day cards and expertly performed tongue love in the world. Like it or not, the threat of a looming breakup, whether the facts justify it or not, will spin her into a paranoid estrogen-fueled tizzy, and she’ll spend every waking second thinking about you, thinking about the relationship, thinking about how to fix it. Her love for you will blossom under these conditions. Result: she works harder to please you. The key for the man is to adopt a posture of blase emotional distance alternated with loving tenderness. Too much of either and she’ll run off. Examples of effective doom inducement: Turn off your cell phone twice a week. Alternate days. Don’t do this on a Friday or Saturday night unless the relationship is shaky and needs a high voltage jolt of dread. Make a blatant but plausibly deniable move on one of her friends when she’s not around. The news will get back to her. Milk it. Call her from a very busy place so that she can hear women’s voices laughing and shrieking in the background. Don’t tell her where you are when she asks. Just say you’ll see her soon. Mention how skilled your Russian ex was at giving head. Bring it up again a few days later, pretending not to remember the first time you mentioned it. Bonus: Russians are very good at giving head, so this will have the ring of truth. Be seen by your girlfriend flirting with other women in a social venue. Extra points if the women are attractive. Double extra points if you flirt without looking back at your girlfriend once to check her reaction. Cook her a romantic candlelight dinner at home. Make it a memorable experience, complete with jazz, chocolate, and rose petals. Then, do not talk with her for four days afterwards. Ignore her calls for a week. When you eventually answer and she reads you the riot act, act as if nothing was wrong and accuse her of sabotaging a perfectly good relationship, “just like all the other women in this stupid city. I thought you were different”. Hang up on her angrily. When her best friend tells you how cute you and your girlfriend look together, shrug, put your hand to the back of your neck as if to scratch an itch there, look down slightly and with a mildly annoyed expression blandly sigh “Yeeeeah…”. Triple bonus points if your girlfriend is standing right there. When she attempts the jealousy maneuver by flirting with another guy, act unfazed. Give her pickup tips. Gaze longingly into her eyes, say how hot she looks, then immediately glance sidelong at the bosom of any strange woman in the vicinity. Have a threesome. Spend an inordinate amount of time admiring the labia of the other woman. Be sure to moan louder with her. WARNING: If you cum on the other woman you will have to spend weeks consoling your girlfriend. Say things like “I really value my independence and freedom” relevant to nothing in particular. It’s just a thought that popped in your head. Thermonuclear Option: Have an affair and make sure she finds out about it. Arrange the confrontation so that it does not happen at your place. When she confronts you, don’t get defensive. Don’t speak at all. Let her vent. Let her punch you in the chest and scream obscenities. When she takes a breather, tell her she’s never looked more beautiful and you will never stop loving her. Then without waiting for her response calmly walk out the door and break off all contact for two weeks. When she comes back to you… and she will… you will have a love slave for life.

[–]tryin2figureitoutRP male since before it was cool0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

This is very close to what narcissists do and with the right partner it is very effective. It's strange that we sometimes love the most those that have hurt us the deepest. I know its been true for me.

I would say that "dread game" exists on a gradient, but it begins with being selfish. Not giving a fuck, and being willing to leave at a moments notice is step one. From there refusing to give or do things to help or uplift the other person, even when it costs you little, as a powerplay begins the slippery slope. Before long your actively doing things to keep the other person down.

I personally don't do this at this level as I don't see many long term benefits and I don't take pleasure in hurting others. But I am closer to the beginning. I am very aware of the power dynamic and try to prevent others from having power over me. I've also been known to ignore a phone call or two when I'm not happy with someone's behavior, which is light "dread game". Basically anything that kicks in someone's primordial fear that they will be alone, not just alone but left, if they don't give in is 'dread game" to some extend.

It's strange in a sense how we as human beings are wired. We can be on our way to break up with someone and if they do it first find ourselves in tears. Our emotional desire to avoid rejection and receive acceptance and praise is strong that when people withhold it and dangle rejection we can become crazed and willing to do anything to escape the pain. If you've ever flirted with someone to make someone else jealous you've used "dread game".

So, in essence, I think there's a thin line between having boundaries and seeking the power position in a relationship. And we've probably prompted "dread" in our SOs from one time or another. But how far to do you take it?

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[–]Exner22 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

So, dread game can be very effective. I've experienced it myself with a "natural", and I'd argue that for me it's one of the stronger tools in TRP arsenal. That said, it creates anxiety and discomfort in the relationship. Anxiety and discomfort is an enemy of intimacy, and can be miserable in an LTR.

I know a lot of people at TRP aren't that interested in LTR, or if they are, have perhaps not experienced one yet in an "adult" sense (e.g., living together, marriage, kids). But in my experience, for a LTR to function there must be a commitment and feeling of security in the relationship. There are going to be times when you or your partner are sick as hell, or when one or both of you are - literally - covered in baby poop. In those moments, it's OK not to want to jump your partner's bones. If I thought that my partner wouldn't stick around through all life's shit, well, he wouldn't have been someone I would have wanted to marry.

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It would have been a lot more entertaining if you'd asked blue pillers to define dread game - then replied to every post asking if a woman should stay with a boyfriend/husband who fails to fulfill his relationship responsibilities.

Literally no one expects women to stay with a man who doesn't hold up his end of the bargain. Red pillers don't expect that of women either. This concept is frequently reinforced by popular culture. How many pop songs are about women leaving men who don't live up to their expectations?

"I can get another you in a minute - in fact he'll be here in a minute."

"If you liked it, you should have put a ring on it."

"Dread game" is used on men all the time and there's nothing remotely wrong with that. If a woman wants to get married, she has every right to set whatever expectations she wants, and to leave the relationship if those expectations aren't met.

...it's only offensive when men do it.

So yeah, you asked the wrong question. You should have asked them to define it, then pointed out that women do it too. I enjoy watching their heads explode.

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[–]nicethingyoucanthaveRed Pill Male-1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

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[–]cuittlerಠ_ಠ-1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (16 children) | Copy Link

define dread game

Ok here ya go

Women respond viscerally in their vagina area to unpredictability, mixed signals, danger, and drama in spite of their best efforts to convince themselves otherwise. Managing your relationship in such a way that she is left with a constant, gnawing feeling of impending doom will do more for your cause than all the Valentine’s Day cards and expertly performed tongue love in the world. Like it or not, the threat of a looming breakup, whether the facts justify it or not, will spin her into a paranoid estrogen-fueled tizzy, and she’ll spend every waking second thinking about you, thinking about the relationship, thinking about how to fix it. Her love for you will blossom under these conditions. Result: she works harder to please you.

The key for the man is to adopt a posture of blase emotional distance alternated with loving tenderness. Too much of either and she’ll run off.

Examples of effective doom inducement:

Turn off your cell phone twice a week. Alternate days. Don’t do this on a Friday or Saturday night unless the relationship is shaky and needs a high voltage jolt of dread.

Make a blatant but plausibly deniable move on one of her friends when she’s not around. The news will get back to her. Milk it.

Call her from a very busy place so that she can hear women’s voices laughing and shrieking in the background. Don’t tell her where you are when she asks. Just say you’ll see her soon.

Mention how skilled your Russian ex was at giving head. Bring it up again a few days later, pretending not to remember the first time you mentioned it. Bonus: Russians are very good at giving head, so this will have the ring of truth.

Be seen by your girlfriend flirting with other women in a social venue. Extra points if the women are attractive. Double extra points if you flirt without looking back at your girlfriend once to check her reaction.

Cook her a romantic candlelight dinner at home. Make it a memorable experience, complete with jazz, chocolate, and rose petals. Then, do not talk with her for four days afterwards.

Ignore her calls for a week. When you eventually answer and she reads you the riot act, act as if nothing was wrong and accuse her of sabotaging a perfectly good relationship, “just like all the other women in this stupid city. I thought you were different”. Hang up on her angrily.

When her best friend tells you how cute you and your girlfriend look together, shrug, put your hand to the back of your neck as if to scratch an itch there, look down slightly and with a mildly annoyed expression blandly sigh “Yeeeeah…”. Triple bonus points if your girlfriend is standing right there.

When she attempts the jealousy maneuver by flirting with another guy, act unfazed. Give her pickup tips.

Gaze longingly into her eyes, say how hot she looks, then immediately glance sidelong at the bosom of any strange woman in the vicinity.

Have a threesome. Spend an inordinate amount of time admiring the labia of the other woman. Be sure to moan louder with her. WARNING: If you cum on the other woman you will have to spend weeks consoling your girlfriend.

Say things like “I really value my independence and freedom” relevant to nothing in particular. It’s just a thought that popped in your head.

Thermonuclear Option:

Have an affair and make sure she finds out about it. Arrange the confrontation so that it does not happen at your place. When she confronts you, don’t get defensive. Don’t speak at all. Let her vent. Let her punch you in the chest and scream obscenities. When she takes a breather, tell her she’s never looked more beautiful and you will never stop loving her. Then without waiting for her response calmly walk out the door and break off all contact for two weeks. When she comes back to you… and she will… you will have a love slave for life.

[–]nicethingyoucanthaveRed Pill Male0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

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[–]cuittlerಠ_ಠ-1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

If you're going to take my quotes and hold them up as "shit blue pillers say", could you at least quote me in context? That's weasely if anything. I can hardly view you seriously now.

lol what? Are you from the "when I look up stupid, it has your picture" school of debate here?

Personal attack, woah look at those mad debate skills! If you wanted a further explanation, or you didn't understand, you could have just asked.

"The definition, or what I see as "Dread Game", would be the example behaviors outlined under "examples of effective doom inducement".

This means that what is listed under "examples of effective doom inducement", as I said before, would be DG behavior. Maybe you would "Make a blatant but plausibly deniable move on one of her friends when she’s not around." to show your GF how "valuable" you are, maybe you do it because you're insecure, maybe you just want to feel more powerful than her, IDGAF why you pull that behavior, what matters is what you're doing, how you're treating your SO. So whatever definition you want to give so you can "weasel" out of this meaning of DG is fine, what really matters is your behavior. AGAIN, THE BEHAVIORS IM REFERENCING ARE DG, IDC WHAT YOUR REASON FOR IMPLEMENTING DG IS NECESSARILY.

And again, you failed to provide any more concrete definitions of DG than what I've already provided, only your personal definition. Not helpful.

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That's why TRP subscribers has no fear of doxxing from people in the real world. That's why everybody loudly proclaims they're TRP men when they go places and stuff. That's why TRP tell their subs to tell their friends and families ... oh wait, none of that is true. You ... you are just sort of not putting things together, I don't think. For your years of being a "feminist" you don't understand the social situation in Europe. For all your immersion in "feminism", you think feminists have enabled you to have women waiting for you to pick them -- Pssstttt ... economic equality for women made them less dependent on a man to provide for them. Those women are with you because they want to be, if you want to attribute your circumstance to feminism. And you fail to connect why something that's slapped down everywhere on Reddit and the mainstream is actually not popular.

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Title	Why Is "Dread Game" Such A Hot Button?
Author	[deleted]
Upvotes	1
Comments	288
Date	June 24, 2014 3:58 AM UTC (12 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/28xq72/why_is_dread_game_such_a_hot_button/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/why-is-dread-game-such-a-hot-button.285452 https://theredarchive.com/post/285452

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