My opinion on Seduction Material.

Thoughts_You_Loathe · 2011-10-10T16:04:09+00:00

I see what you mean. I don't take the information I gather here and apply it literally. I mold it to how it fits my personality and it has worked pretty well so far (at least in making friends. I needn't meet girls to fuck since I have a girlfriend already, but you see my point.).

theidealbt · 2011-10-10T16:14:12+00:00

I think there should be a required course for any guy to go through. It would cover self-help therapy, confidence building exercises, stress management, and finding all the positives in their lives. On top of that, the course would force each and every person to deal with their own bullshit and life problems before learning the ins and outs of social game. All the seduction material in the world won't help the guys who haven't even dealt with their own problems first.

warpcowboy · 2011-10-10T18:07:29+00:00

I started listening to David DeAngelo when I was 15 or something. Got into this stuff. Made zero progress despite consuming vast amounts of material. I felt like I could answer any question on the subject you threw at me. I could even give advice to FRs based on my accumulated exposure.

Still, zero progress.

Not a fucking ounce of progress was made until I said fuck it and started talking to girls. I would've made more lifelong progress had I never found the community/material and just immersed myself in social situations that forced me to gain social experience.

Come back to r/seduction when you have specific questions or want help analyzing what went wrong in a specific FR. It should be used as a lens to derive progress from your real life experiences.

If you're here and you aren't approaching girls, you're on course to take your dreams to the grave with you unless you act.

bink1time · 2011-10-10T16:56:04+00:00

Going out is so much more important then anything else. You can't learn this by studying you need experience.

This is an analogy from poker, but....

Think of your game as a ship. There are two ways to build a ship. You can have a blue print or you just start nailing boards together. Now the guy with the blue print has a plan, but if he has never nailed anything together, when he starts nailing the boards together he will suck and won't be able to build a good ship. On the other hand the person that is nailing boards together, can nail them, but he doesn't know how to build a ship. Eventually though the guy nailing boards will be able to build a ship, because he will learn from his mistakes. It may take him a year, it may take him 10 years. But let's say he had infinite time, eventually he will make the perfect ship, simply by making mistakes and then going "hmm this doesn't go here, it won't float". The guy with the blue print already has the "perfect", but he has no idea how to nail anything, so unless he starts nailing and getting dirty, he will never be able to build a ship. So the best person to be is one with a blue print and one who learns to nail boards together.

We can go even further, let's say you take the blue print from a really good ship builder and you build it. But when you are steering the ship, a huge storm comes. You aren't sure exactly how to handle the storm, because this isn't YOUR SHIP it's someone else's ship. Sure you can handle it when it's calm waters, but when something goes wrong you aren't sure. So take the ship and make it your own, learn every nook and cranny of your ship. That's how you get good.

Builder=you Ship=your game Blueprint= good pua's game/books

This analogy is from dogishead, it's not mine.

The point is that books/material is there to cut your learn curve because we don't have infinite time/money. A good blueprint that you can learn from and mold will cut your learning curve BY A HUGE AMOUNT OF TIME.

ffffffn · 2011-10-10T16:47:11+00:00

Here is what I did:

Read all the materials, enlightened myself to all game principles, internalized them...

...then went out and promptly put all of it out of my mind.

Krieger9 · 2011-10-10T17:32:16+00:00

Thing is you knew the material by time you went out on your own. This is a distinct advantage in using your experience to breakdown the problems and the victories. Sometimes experience does nothing without good information to comprehend what just happened.

Certainly experience is the only way, but I haven't read anything real in these discussions that didn't stress that over everything else.

It's like people thinking you can take a karate lesson and use the information without practice and practice. Nope, it's just like everything else worth learning with the exception of making toast. Can probably do that without practice.

2011-10-10T19:50:26+00:00

I personally didn't start getting laid or having success with women until I ditched PUA and stopped caring about all this shit.

Funny how that works.

Don't get me wrong, I think the posts on inner game here are definitely worth a read; but places like r/fitness or r/meditation are gonna get you a hell of a lot farther than reading "Master PUA guru secrets" bullshit ever will. Just my two cents, based on several years following and summarily ditching PUA.

puaCurveBall · 2011-10-10T16:13:53+00:00

I agree with your sentiment, but I'd reframe the conclusions you drew from it.

Innergame material is exactly about that "believing in yourself" bit, as well as most material says you need to learn the stuff in field. Learning stuff from flashcards instead of going out is not advised, and would be using the material incorrectly.

I think, now that you have gained the right inner game mindset, you might be better off going back through all that material instead of deleting it and giving up on it. With your success you might find some gems that you weren't ready for previously.

Dexter77 · 2011-10-10T17:37:02+00:00

Yes, it's like in all sports -- learn the techniques, choose the best fit for yourself and become the best in it. Don't try to be the jack of all trades.

ISw3arItWasntM3 · 2011-10-10T17:41:17+00:00

So when does reading the material come in? Is it just for aspiring PUAs?

justthrowmeout · 2011-10-11T02:46:00+00:00

I think there's a lot to be said for simply being really experienced to the point that when you show up and meet the girl you're really relaxed, don't give a shit, and kinda know that you're getting laid. You spend your time just having fun as part of the ritual and just enjoy teasing the girl and playing with her..all in fun.

*this coming from a guy that had sex with 3 girls in one day last saturday. All of them were fine.

disclaimer...I'm in Asia so it's easier here.

2011-10-11T03:35:30+00:00

Tyler talks about this in blueprint which I am now rewatching after seeing it long ago. He describes the the evolution of the PUA guy or the natural. I can't find it right now but the progression is basically what you said. They are all enthused and go crazy learning. Go out and it's a disaster. Then with time they keep working on it and get better and then eventually turn around and poke fun at pickup and the community. Then they eventually settle in and come back to the material and truly understand what has been said all along but this time they have their own version and beliefs. They've internalized it in a personal way.

My journey is similar. I deleted my accounts and said fuck it to pickup and then did my own thing. When I figured it out I was like, "see pickup is bullshit; just do whatever feels right cause that's what works for me." Now I'm going back and realizing everything I 'discovered' has already been taught. I just wasn't at the right place to understand it and absorb it correctly. I didn't know how to adapt it to my life. Now I'm beginning to see it.

I still sometimes poke fun though ;) but man, tyler really does know shit at a deep level. I'm rediscovering him after abandoning it all.

SupALupRT · 2011-10-11T05:07:20+00:00

Like Bruce Lee said; “Absorb what is useful, Discard what is not, Add what is uniquely your own.” I use bits and pieces of it, ignore the jargon (Seddit and PUA uses all this sleezy jargon, when most of it is unnecessary, but that's a different discussion all together.) and adjust the most relevant it towards improving my weaknesses.

With that said, here's what I said in a previous thread about this:

I kinda think about like this like how NFL quarterbacks prepare for games. Do you think quarterbacks like Tom Brady and Peyton Manning are thinking and over-thinking about all the shit they learned during practice? No. Sure during the week they are watching film, learning strategies, and reworking things in practice, but on game day, they are in the moment, and making adjustments on the fly. In other words, you shouldn't really be thinking about material while you're actually in public.

Like Owen from RSD said; (this is paraphrased from The Blueprint Decoded by the way) When you're in the lab be a scientist, when you're out in public, BE A PERSON.

TL:DR: Actually practice the material and don't consciously think about it when you're with women.

thistooshallparse · 2011-10-11T08:49:11+00:00

All I'm hearing is that you did all of one and not the other for a while then switched and saw results. I think both theory and practice are necessary - without theory it's very difficult to recognise what's working and what isn't - theory gives us a framework to understand the process - without it practice can be next to useless because you won't know what you are doing wrong - hell, there's a lot of guys out there who think they didn't pick up because their watch doesn't cost enough.

sillymallard · 2011-10-10T16:20:34+00:00

I disagree with you. With youtube and other video programs out there it's a lot easier to soak up what works and what doesn't and replicate it in the field. I used to read a lot of PUA stuff before youtube existed, and I'll tell you, reading the stuff didn't really help me that much, but watching videos of it have made a much bigger difference and have made it easier for me to go into the field. Of course, there is nothing more productive than being in the field.

oaksalve · 2011-10-10T16:14:37+00:00

So true

anon10500 · 2011-10-10T17:01:16+00:00

After that i gave up on the material, deleted a large portion of my stuff

So the real question is which ones are left ?

iznou · 2011-10-10T17:39:24+00:00

I respect the following PUA's and no one else: El Topo, GoneSavage, 60 Years of Challenge, TheCostOfSuccess, and a guy named Mankite.

If anyone wants a short pdf that will be the last thing on seduction you will ever need to read, send me a PM.

Pires007 · 2011-10-10T18:53:17+00:00

The material does help, just yesterday I had a first date with a HB7.5 from OkCupid. My game isn't the best, but understanding the importance of keno, kiss approach, being not needy really helped. We made out, and then I got some hard core LMR. Without the material, it would have taken me a long time to understand what was going on, but here it played out almost like a script "wow, I've never done that before", etc.

TL:DR Material helps when you are in the field, atleast to recognize what is going on, what are the IOIs, etc.

theidealbt · 2011-10-10T19:28:31+00:00

I think the problem with alot of people is that they look for this seduction material to be some sort of magic pill that will magically get you a smoking hot babe hanging all over you just from reading a book on NLP or watching some pirated seminar from RSD.

College courses in chemistry come with an accompanying lab to apply your classroom knowledge, but just like class, you cant learn unless you show up.

My approach to "game" is not to game anyone but myself, its about transforming myself into a person I want to be thats charismatic and draws people in.

But I agree with OP to a degree, you can't use a manual to live your life

Bobsutan · 2011-10-10T19:42:07+00:00

It's really common for guys to go sprague reading everything they can, watching vids online, etc, but that's the last thing they should do since it causes brain lock when they finally go out and try to use it. Experience is the best teacher and all most guys need is a fee fixes here or there to their outer game, and some work on getting their heads straight (inner game). That's why I teach a framework and have them do drills and actually have guys approaching as soon as possible.

2011-10-10T19:56:00+00:00

The interesting thing is that this advice applies to everything we are taught, be it in school or from our friends and family. Don't just accept it as a rule, but as a reference manual, and go out and make your own rules. As a grad student I feel that it can even be applied to research. You've studied their science, no go make your own.

2011-10-10T22:08:50+00:00

I feel the same way... just starting out, and I was already thinking too much about how to constantly do this or do that instead of just talking to ppl like they are human beings. it ended up losing me some nice prospects... but I am licking my wounds and will try to go out and do it again without memorized material.

huyvanbin · 2011-10-11T00:27:49+00:00

The interesting thing, though, is that so many people believe in themselves (sometimes to a fault) and yet manage to be completely fuck things up socially over and over again.

Nexism · 2011-10-11T00:45:46+00:00

I'm sure even reading one sample one-itis case will help you immensely from getting into a similar situation.

2011-10-11T00:58:30+00:00

This shit made me an armchair professor too. Doing and reading are not the same.

eric22vhs · 2011-10-11T02:12:54+00:00

Meh. It's not a good idea to read the game, then go out practicing lines as if it's a tangible skill that anyone can learn.

The fundamentals are good to know, and there are a lot of random epiphanies when you read this stuff where you realize a pattern amongst women, or that they find or don't find something specific attractive.

Reciting lines, and practicing specific methods seems counter productive to me. Take in the stuff that makes sense with your own logic and reason, stick to your own ethics with it, and work on your overall personality. Eventually once you have enough going for yourself you'll start realizing you naturally see yourself as more dominant than the people around you. (naturally as in you just can't really fake it)

2011-10-11T02:30:52+00:00

I'm late to the party here but I had a similar experience to OP. In high school I had pretty good 'game.' Which means I was just very social and although in the popular group and I was friends with them and everyone else. Girl's flocked to me one by one but just didn't pull the trigger very much. After high school I hit a rough patch where I didn't have very many close friends. A symptom of being kind of friends with everyone instead of close friends with a few people. Oh well. I started going out tonnes, never refusing an invite and just tried to expand my social circle like crazy. I basically whored myself and dropped my standards as to who I would be friends with. That worked because even people I didn't really like or have much respect for, I'd still try to be their friends and eventually met all their friends.

And then I discovered pickup. At that point I was never really that bad socially or women wise. Just not great. And I love learning how things work and social dynamics fascinated me. Why girl's like ass holes, why guy's get put in the friend zone, what attracts people, etc.

But short term it fucked me over. It made me way too outcome dependent. Tried too hard. I blew up a section of my social circle because I went to gamey on a girl there.

Right now I'm just working on becoming a natural. Internalizing this stuff so I don't have to be in my head when talking to people and just working on the basics. The blueprint is talked about on here a lot and it's helped me see the light. Right after discovering pua stuff I settled into a social circle that I fit in with really nice. They're my best friends and I'll be a here a while. But that kind of made me burn the people on the outside of my social circle. It became a lot smaller. And in my group of friends the girls are already taken, or not good enough in looks and personality. So now I'm trying to expand my social circle again while staying grounded in the one I'm in now. And then I'm hoping to be able to pick and choose from girls in the outer circle.

2011-10-11T02:31:04+00:00

I'm late to the party here but I had a similar experience to OP. In high school I had pretty good 'game.' Which means I was just very social and although in the popular group and I was friends with them and everyone else. Girl's flocked to me one by one but just didn't pull the trigger very much. After high school I hit a rough patch where I didn't have very many close friends. A symptom of being kind of friends with everyone instead of close friends with a few people. Oh well. I started going out tonnes, never refusing an invite and just tried to expand my social circle like crazy. I basically whored myself and dropped my standards as to who I would be friends with. That worked because even people I didn't really like or have much respect for, I'd still try to be their friends and eventually met all their friends.

And then I discovered pickup. At that point I was never really that bad socially or women wise. Just not great. And I love learning how things work and social dynamics fascinated me. Why girl's like ass holes, why guy's get put in the friend zone, what attracts people, etc.

But short term it fucked me over. It made me way too outcome dependent. Tried too hard. I blew up a section of my social circle because I went to gamey on a girl there.

Right now I'm just working on becoming a natural. Internalizing this stuff so I don't have to be in my head when talking to people and just working on the basics. The blueprint is talked about on here a lot and it's helped me see the light. Right after discovering pua stuff I settled into a social circle that I fit in with really nice. They're my best friends and I'll be a here a while. But that kind of made me burn the people on the outside of my social circle. It became a lot smaller. And in my group of friends the girls are already taken, or not good enough in looks and personality. So now I'm trying to expand my social circle again while staying grounded in the one I'm in now. And then I'm hoping to be able to pick and choose from girls in the outer circle.

2011-10-11T04:34:59+00:00

yeah i absolutely agree with you, i come here now and then and read up on tips and experiences and i see people that follow this stuff like it's a bible. From personal experience i've found that i'm at my best when i be the chilled person i am while applying some of these techniques if i think it'll help, instead of going out with a plan and sticking to it. Mind you i'm the kind of guy after a relationship not just a one night stand so it's pretty anecdotal.

trip_fontaine23 · 2011-10-11T04:45:17+00:00

Good for you man! i'm happy for you! Confidence is a beautiful thing

choc_is_back · 2011-10-11T09:18:17+00:00

It's all just training wheels to get you kickstarted in the following wonderful cycle:

have a try at all that 'seduction' stuff > whoa! > more success with girls > more confidence > more success with girls > more confidence > more success with girls > more confidence > more success with girls > more confidence > ...

SupALupRT · 2011-10-12T15:30:47+00:00

I think most of this stuff is just confidence building. Everything else is fluff. 90% of the time girls that are really into you its due to your confidence. Just had a girl tell me that last night. If you have high value of yourself, girls are intrigued to find out if you are high value to them as well.

Skellyton · 2011-10-11T03:54:11+00:00

Yeah its like 90% inner game and 10% material. Your inner affects your posture and body language aswell as how you act, thats why it counts so much more than saying the right thing at the right time.

Title	My opinion on Seduction Material.
Author	Medice
Upvotes	103
Comments	64
Date	October 10, 2011 3:38 PM UTC (14 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/seduction
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/seduction/comments/l751x/my_opinion_on_seduction_material/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/seduction/my-opinion-on-seduction-material.1323643 https://theredarchive.com/post/1323643

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