I tell people women AND men's rights are important, and I'm told to get off my high horse.

DoctorStorm · 2012-06-06T18:07:05+00:00

Question: How the hell do we combat such attitidues? When the very muttering of the word mens rights brings such contempt, anger and ignorance. How do you use logic,reason, proof or arguments when some people don't listen to any of it. Now if any MRA's can answer me that id be very much obliged.

2012-06-06T20:36:41+00:00

I have the same problem with a lot of my feminist friends. There's such a knee-jerk reaction to the notion of discrimination against men. Even discussing the--relatively uncontroversial and obvious--inaccurate/offensive depiction of men in the media leads to whining about how it does women a disservice. It's shit like that that has left me reluctant to describe myself as a feminist, despite agreeing with the feminist movement on a lot of commonly-tackled issues. I just don't want to be associated with the one-sided, women-are-always-the-victim shitshow it is.

If there's anything I've learned in my experience with gender and discrimination, it's that there are startlingly few genuine egalitarians. So many people view gender issues as having to have a clear villain and victim. My own observations suggest that men and women each face challenges that should not exist. I don't define myself as championing either men's or women's rights because it seems like championing one cause results in the implication that I disregard the other. It's tough. I mean, I have my own biases and a tendency to skew issues by considering foremost how they affect me as a woman. But I work to get past that, whereas nearly everyone else I know who is vocal about sexism is content to consider only their own personal perspective. I don't know how to persuade others to calm the fuck down and accept that there are realities beyond what they have experienced.

2latenow · 2012-06-06T19:05:48+00:00

Dealing with even well-intentioned feminist's cognitive dissonance is a huge part of what MRA's must do to turn the tide towards true gender egalitarianism. A good way of doing this is to frame the issues one at a time, using an example in the context of a "mother's son". Sad to say, but the best way to get across seems to be to speak from the assumption the woman would automatically take the most selfish possible approach to the situation.

For example, "If you had a teenage son and some random girl indicated she was pregnant and he was the father, wouldn't you want a paternity test?"

As soon as the context fits her self-centered world view, every woman can immediately understand the importance of paternity testing.

Lecks · 2012-06-06T17:18:15+00:00

Feminists aren't really interested in equality, just self female interest.

Redebidet · 2012-06-06T21:26:01+00:00

Well to be fair, were you on a horse when you said this?

KinArt · 2012-06-06T22:38:32+00:00

I like try and help my fiance out when he gets into arguments like these. I feel like if a woman explains to them they they're being sexist as fuck, they might listen better... Because they are sexist as fuck.

rightsbot · 2012-06-06T16:44:17+00:00

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NoGardE · 2012-06-06T19:31:15+00:00

Hehe, my friends and I like to joke that I keep a stable of high horses just so I can always be riding one. The kicker: I haven't talked to them about MR yet.

ivebeenhereallsummer · 2012-06-06T21:12:09+00:00

If the "liberals" think you're a NEOCON and the "conservatives" think you're a LIBTARD you are probably doing the egalitarian thing correctly.

rhinestones · 2012-06-06T22:46:08+00:00

This is coming from someone who doesn't identify with men or women. I find that many people tend to easily fall into an us-versus-them mentality, identifying with people of their sex and seeing people of the other sex as being in competition with them for a fixed amount of consideration and respect that society has to give out. It quickly devolves into "this sex does that, that sex does this" generalities. It's one of the things that has made it hard for me to not generally relate with people except as an outsider. I don't have any desire to get wrapped up in that kind of thinking.

I find that being outside of this I can be more assertive and make more powerful arguments which don't rest on putting down others or comparing how each sex is treated in general, but which stand on their own and call for all humans to be treated with the same respect in whatever situation. For whatever reason the absurdities are generally clear to me regardless of what sex/age/etc. is involved. I think it might be due to me not getting any personal benefit for taking a particular side, as I feel an outsider to everyone.

I get really disappointed when someone speaks up about something and is not taken seriously and dismissed. In the examples, I just want to step in and say, "Hey, he's bring up something he considers serious and wants you to listen to and take seriously for at least the next few minutes. Put away your canned responses and actually pay attention and ask questions so you can understand better."

2012-06-07T08:57:28+00:00

My wife is the best kind of feminist. She calls bs no matter where she sees it and she gets pissed off as much as any man about anything that is sexist against males whether it is paternity issues, divorce issues or workplace issues. She works as a pre-school/nursery manager and hires males whenever she can to help combat the sexist mindset about males and kids. Just tell her that a man can't be a good teacher of young children and wait for the fireworks to go off. She does get a bit more worked up about sexism against females but that is mostly because of personal experience, but she wouldn't fight any less hard to right a wrong against a man. My best friend and stubborn as hell.

cranktheguy · 2012-06-06T21:16:32+00:00

Just substitute "black" for "man" and retell the story. Get them to explain why "We can't assume they aren't going to hurt our white children" isn't racist.

vaughg · 2012-06-06T19:34:31+00:00

The important thing is to keep sticking up for men's issues without being an asshole. Most people do not change long-held opinions and view points very quickly. It often takes months or years for before someone will change their mind or even see things in a different light.

blitz_omlet · 2012-06-07T01:11:07+00:00

Most of my friends have been pretty open to this stuff. But I'm pretty careful with people I'd call my friends.

The usual vibe among my male friends is that they agree with this but don't sub because it makes them too angry or depressed. I don't blame them. The female friends aren't anything like how an entitled, modern woman can be under the current social system. It's always an odd experience meeting a batshit insane girl who subscribes to all of the silly double standards. I guess I deal with it by pretending that they don't vote.

MRAToronto · 2012-06-06T20:49:42+00:00

Associating with feminist is a mistake.

2012-06-06T20:16:20+00:00

Eh well just take their fucking "rights" away and then when they complain say..eh get off your high horse.

Patrick5555 · 2012-06-06T18:41:05+00:00

I am a Christian, and call myself a "Christian". When the subject comes up, I ask my "Baptist", "Presbyterian", and "Catholic" friends: who are you following? Christ? Or your church?

You can't always tell a book by it's cover or name, but I do believe that there is a very pronounced difference between calling yourself an "MRA", "Feminist", and "egalitarian".

If you are for equal rights, why do you call yourself a feminist? Oh, that's right, because you only care about equal rights when a female isn't getting the best of it...

DuchessofYanks · 2012-06-07T00:27:07+00:00

They have basically the entire country on their side, there's no possible way they would ever listen to anything you had to say about what they consider to be the 'enemy".

While it's a good idea to keep at it, engaging them in rational conversation produces no effect, they follow their dogma (if you will) blindly. So just keep that in mind when talking to them, I've pretty much stopped altogether because it's too frustrating conversing with idiots who bully and gang up on you for defending the opposite sex.

Anterai · 2012-06-06T18:36:56+00:00

Gonna get downvoted, but i'll quote on book :
"Women got rights, they don't know what for, but they got them. And if this continues, men will suffer"

Alanna · 2012-06-06T21:09:23+00:00

[permanently deleted]

Geohump · 2012-06-06T21:54:08+00:00

I suggest framing it thus:

In certain circumstances both women and men have been horribly, unfairly treated. Yes Women have historically been victimized much more than men, but both genders have been victimized. Fair and just treatment for ALL the people, ALL the time is what we need. Injustice is evil ALL the time no matter who it happens to.

trentthetiger · 2012-06-07T20:23:19+00:00

This exact same thing happens to me too. You are not alone.

Dwayne_J_Murderden · 2012-06-07T03:21:37+00:00

Paternity testing for every birth is a little excessive, I'll be honest. I think it should be a readily available resource, for sure, but making it mandatory is taking it a bit too far IMO.

Upvotesmagotes1 · 2012-06-06T23:31:45+00:00

No, stop it. I am completely sick of these insipid generalizations that are constantly perpetuated on this subreddit, about what you assume ALL feminists are like, or what kinds of viewpoints the "overwhelming majority of feminists" hold. As if you have any idea. These generlizations are dangerous and hypocritical and you all come across like petty children when you insisit on making them.

It's moronic and reductive, and it completely undermines our goal and turns what is a vitally important movement into a fucking sideshow. This subreddit does itself so much more harm than good sometimes.

misskelseylouise · 2012-06-06T20:08:00+00:00

Isn't paternity testing expensive? I think every father should have the right to a paternity test without fear of punishment or stigma, but if he doesn't want it, it seems like a waste of a lot of money. Just a thought.

Alanna · 2012-06-06T21:02:50+00:00

What exactly is the logic behind mandatory paternity tests? In cases where neither parent is worried about paternity, what purpose would this serve?

Title	I tell people women AND men's rights are important, and I'm told to get off my high horse.
Author	[deleted]
Upvotes	210
Comments	165
Date	June 6, 2012 4:42 PM UTC (14 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/uo5ya/i_tell_people_women_and_mens_rights_are_important/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/i-tell-people-women-and-mens-rights-are-important.1020306 https://theredarchive.com/post/1020306

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