Brother and sister have consensual sex - only the man gets put on sex offender's register

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No, I am not. I admit, I had not considered genetic diseases, but I have long been convinced that there would be substantial merit in banning pregnancies in very young mothers, like age 13 and down, on the basis that they could not plausibly be a fit mother.

A fitting punishment is very hard to select. I would like it to be as simple as forcing the mother to give up the child - effectively DCF deciding she's unfit preemptively, and that's already what happens when they decide that. I'm not sure how that would go down; all sorts of problems could crop up with it.

Making who is allowed to have children a democratic process is, by itself, an absolutely horrible idea, and that fact might be the most glaring problem. You would have to go in ahead of time and make very strict rules which are exceedingly difficult to modify - think constitutional amendment difficult - restricting the state's ability to decide, and if that wasn't done, slippery slope would surely apply, and everything would be awful forever.

[–]huntwhales 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]quindraco 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I only have two problems with that:

1) It's the woman's body but somewhere out there is a man who helped make that baby, and I cannot get behind giving him 0% rights and the woman 100%. I get that it is a very messy issue because the baby is housed in her body - which is certainly 100% hers - but I am completely unconvinced we cannot do better than extending the same priorities to the fetal parasite inside her.

2) That baby will someday become self-aware, and once that happens it's a person, and anything awful the parents did to it suddenly becomes something awful they did to a fellow person. It's why I have a problem with my parents having had me circumcised, it's why I have a problem with pregnant mothers who do drugs, and it's why I posted what I did about sufficiently terrible genetic disorders. When it's still a fetus, sure, whatever, but when it's 35 and still suffering, that's some awful shit right there.

[–]huntwhales 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

There are not always 100% defects in a child. If you have learned of the square used to show how genetic traits are passed along, it would help. Family members share genes. Below is an example I spent too much time making. Lets say the D gene is the defected gene, and the R gene is not defected. The more D genes, the worse a person is. So in this effect DD= Fully defected as a person, DR/RD= Semi defected, RR=Average person. So you are more likely to get a defected individual, but it is not likely. Please remember too, that unrelated strangers make defected people as well. Sister represents your sister, and GF represents girlfriend.

 You You D gene | R gene D gene | R gene |----------------| |----------------| S | | | | | | I Dg| DD | RD | Rg| DR | RR | S |----------------| G |----------------| T Rg| DR | RR | F Rg| DR | RR | E | | | | | | R |________|_______| |________|_______|

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[–]elperroborrachotoo -1 points0 points1 point 14 years ago (16 children) | Copy Link

It's not just that. It's also about sex in the family, where between consensual and rape there's a large field of dependence and trust.

Family is special here because it's supposed to be your protected space, where you can be weak, where people help you not make wrong decisions. Where you can explore the world, and try ways to deal with it.

In the OP example: what if he takes away her money and gives it back only after sex? Do you want to make that call? What if she lets the money on the table because she enjoys thatr little game? What if its his mother and they are above age of consent?

As in the OP example, even if it's consensual between the two, it can pretty much drive apart the family.

Next, do you make a call somewhere? "Well, yes, everyone does, but you can't because your parents are siblings"?

There is, unfortunately, always a gap between "rules that make sense" and "rules that can be abided".

[–]Lawtonfogle 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

We already allow sex inside of families for a very long time, between the husband and wife. Now, while that is not genetically incest, in many families, especially if one goes back in time 50 or so years, the men have a much greater level of power able to withhold supplies or even affection from a wife who isn't having sex. Also, today there are many cases of women withholding sex unless they get what they want, be that a new dress or just some help washing the dishes and cleaning up supper.

This also occurs in dating, with a girl expecting a lot more than love before having sex.

So if the individuals are all consenting, then the push and pull of normal relationship dynamics will occur. This doesn't make consent any less valid.

If a husband who is the only money earner in a household cuts down on his wifes budget because she is withholding sex, is this any different?

Also, I'm talking about sex between siblings. The difference between sex between siblings and sex between parent and child is just as big a difference as the difference between sex between a husband and wife and sex between a parent and child.

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"protecting families from incest" - in the sense that it's often destructive - is only one aspect; the others are "protecting society from incestual offspring" and "protecting people from incestual abuse".

I sure as hell won't try to draw up a solution that pleases you.

Understanding the reasons (which in my books includes reevaluating them) and keeping up the social stigma as a "quick decider" might be enough. Yeah, I wish.

The typical solution would be a social stigma, plus a court order to stop having sex when it occurs, plut punishment for not following the court order - which usually includes jail as an option.

In my understanding, that's not your "throw them into jail, lol" allegiation, but I am not sure if you care about that difference.

And no, that doesn't solve the problem you probably want to be solved: at-most-one-generation-reproductive, undoubtly-consensual sex between siblings. I merely wanted to point out that (a) there may be other reasons beyond genetic degeneration and (b) that situation is hard to identify for an outsider.

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Nothing is intrinsically immoral, I don't even think such a statement has meaning.

I generally take a utilitarian stance, so on the whole incestual sexual relationships will produce a significant amount of harm through the production of children with genetic conditions, even if not all such sexual relationships produce that harm.

In communities that practice polygamy, incest is also a serious problem not only for the production of such children, but also because it sometimes results in very restrictive social structures, where women often become almost like property to men.

If you look at each individual case, many will have nothing obviously morally wrong. If you look at the effects of the practice then it's a net negative and you can safely proscribe it knowing that the world will be better on the whole, even if some people miss their harmless incest sex fun.

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[–]enkidusfriend 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

You're essentially saying that football causes horrific injurys to children, therefore it's wrong for children to play football, therefore touch football is also banned because it has the word football in it.

No, I'm saying no such thing. Football does not cause genetic conditions and we can mitigate the risk factors to children by having them wear safety equipment and teaching them how to take hits, protect themselves, ect. (oddly enough, things we already do).

therefore touch football is also banned because it has the word football in it.

This is a straw man that is in no way connected to anything I said.

You did a pretty poor job of ignoring the fact that reproductive sex and non-reproductive sex are two incredibly different things.

This is one of the stupidest things I have ever heard.

Please tell me you don't really think that contraception is 100% successful. Further, please don't tell me you believe that everyone uses a) uses contraception and b) uses it effectively. Even if your intention is to have non-reproductive sex, there is absolutely no guarantee that that is what you will be getting.

[–]Phrodo_00 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]thingsarebad 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago* (7 children) | Copy Link

Nothing is intrinsically immoral, I don't even think such a statement has meaning.

My intention was to ward off the obligatory examples of parents molesting their children as "proof" that incest is wrong. There is nothing about incest that intrinsically makes it wrong.

If you look at the effects of the practice then it's a net negative and you can safely proscribe it knowing that the world will be better on the whole, even if some people miss their harmless incest sex fun.

Only if children are produced, and therefore the most that would be even somewhat defensible would be to criminalize having children through incest. Having sex would not need to be criminalized, because there is not necessarily any harm from incest unless children are produced.

You can do less and accomplish the same thing, and therefore your solution sucks.

even if some people miss their harmless incest sex fun

I'll go ahead and rephrase your statement for homosexuality:

If you look at the effects of the practice then it's a net negative and you can safely proscribe it knowing that the world will be better on the whole, even if some people miss their harmless homosexual sex fun.

:/ Great argument, pal.

[–]enkidusfriend -1 points0 points1 point 14 years ago* (6 children) | Copy Link

Having sex would not need to be criminalized, because there is not necessarily any harm from incest unless children are produced.

Telling people to avoid having children is not going to work, children are going to be produced anyways. Contraception will fail, or will be used improperly, or not at all.

A more effective strategy would be to ban the practice as a whole and teach children (as we already do) that having sex with your close relatives is a bad thing. Putting your faith in people to avoid making babies when you tell them to is a pretty bad solution.

If you look at the effects of the practice then it's a net negative and you can safely proscribe it knowing that the world will be better on the whole, even if some people miss their harmless homosexual sex fun.

Pretty obvious straw man. Not equivalent statements at all since, as I have already said, homosexual relationships do not entail the same kinds of problems.

Here, I can do the same thing to one of your statements:

Actually, slavery isn't wrong. :)

Oooh damn, how dare you!

[–]thingsarebad 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago* (5 children) | Copy Link

Telling people to avoid having children is not going to work, children are going to be produced anyways.

Rarely, and abortion could be enforced. Therefore homosexuality and incest are not that different, in that neither would produce children.

Now on to another point that my fiancee pointed out: Many types of incest do not vastly increase the likelihood of birth defects. http://www.slate.com/id/2064227/

I suppose you're in favor of prison time for 40 year old women who have sex or people with inheritable diseases, as well? After all, the likelihood of birth defects is increased in these cases, so it should be illegal for them to have sex at all, right?

Oh, and I suppose you'd say that incest is okay as long as it's homosexual incest because no children could result? Right?

If not, you're a bigoted clown grasping for straws to logically support your bigotry.

Regardless, if incest really causes genetic problems they will take care of themselves - no need for government intervention at all.

[–]Infuser -1 points0 points1 point 14 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

There is no rational argument that makes non-reproducing, consensual incest intrinsically immoral in comparison to homosexuality.

I don't know about immoral, but I would say unethical almost always. I think you will agree that sex in a relationship almost always changes the dynamics of it. Siblings this isn't as much of an issue, since it is between two peers (assuming both are of age), although it is still ethically wrong (people get jealous over sexual partners, so it has so much potential to go wrong that I can't really see it being beneficial to anyone with the current behavioral trends, among other reasons). I wouldn't be opposed to legalizing sibling incest, although I'd still find it distasteful and asking for problems. I would however, argue that parent-child incest might be left illegal.

Quoting myself from another response in this thread

In the US we let people as young as 18 (16 some places?) fuck 40 year old persons, or older persons. Now, imagine this older person has been involved in raising the 18 year old. It then becomes close to the parent-child relationship. Personally, I think it is gross, but I wouldn't request that we make it illegal.

I think that might be along the lines of your argument here, and, if we're only arguing from a genetics standpoint, you would be right and I'd already agree with you. But there's more than one problem here.

parent-child incest should remain illegal, for the same reason we have statutory rape and corporations can reprimand persons for having relationships/affairs with people that work under them. There will always be a dynamic of power, whether it be that of an authority figure the child grew up with, or that the child can be (at least partially) disinherited.

In the above parallel of older person fucking very young person, there is still a dynamic of power, but that economic aspect (as well as the social power within the family aspect) is not present here, so there is no legal basis for opposing it. Parent-child incest, on the other hand has both of these, and, I suspect, more potential for impropriety that I'd rather not think about.

I guess it is kind of like how I am all for gun ownership and the commensurate regulation, but not for everyone owning high-explosive weapons (although we do let almost anyone drive a ton of steel near/through crowded areas). There is a certain point where we have to say, "you can't easily come into possession of this power without due (and perhaps lengthy/expensive) process." Maybe it could work if we had social workers assess everything and the persons involved came for evaluations, but, really, who would actually subject themselves to this oversight besides crazy persons (and who would want to oversee it besides crazy persons)?

We live in a less than perfect world, so we can't have a perfect solution to everything. I think my personal stance here would be closer to "don't ask, don't tell," in that, if you really want to do it, then don't get caught, because I will advocate legal action against you, and odds are if it comes to light, it was probably due to an example of the impropriety I fear. As such, I think parent-child incest should remain illegal, even past the age of consent.

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I think most people here are saying it shouldn't be illegal (if one of the other commentators is to be believed, women conceiving after 35 have a higher chance for genetic disorders) but it doesn't change their opinion of it being ethically wrong. People do fucked up shit all the time, and as long as it is between two consenting adults that don't cause permanent harm to one another, should we really ban it?

like a father fucking a daughter, or a mother fucking a son

In the US we let people as young as 18 (16 some places?) fuck 40 year old persons, or older persons. Now, imagine this older person has been involved in raising the 18 year old. It then becomes close to the parent-child relationship. Personally, I think it is gross, but I wouldn't request that we make it illegal. This being said, I actually do think parent-child incest should remain illegal, for the same reason we have statutory rape and corporations can reprimand persons for having relationships/affairs with people that work under them. There will always be a dynamic of power, whether it be that of an authority figure the child grew up with, or that the child can be (at least partially) disinherited.

Most people are specifically talking about sibling incest, which is between two peers. Ethically, I still think it's really wrong, but I'd like to hear your case (since genetic diseases are less likely than older persons having children) for why it should be illegal.

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Title	Brother and sister have consensual sex - only the man gets put on sex offender's register
Author	Lotus7
Upvotes	204
Comments	184
Date	September 3, 2011 6:51 PM UTC (14 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/k3pde/brother_and_sister_have_consensual_sex_only_the/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/brother-and-sister-have-consensual-sex-only-the.1035059 https://theredarchive.com/post/1035059

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