We won't get very far in most of these discussions because people in general are often times dishonest. They have an ego to protect and will sacrifice the truth to preserve it. Even some of the people claiming to be of "the truth" will become bias and defensive when it comes to certain topics. People who have a "dog in this fight" can't be completely trusted to tell the truth. If they benefit from the lie, don't expect them to be honest.

When people are honest and the ugly truth occasionally slips out, there will always be people denying it to do damage control. Then you have the people who will deny it because the truth causes them to feel hopeless and that tiny bit of hope is the only thing keeping them sane.

My overall point is, people who do not actually value truth ruin these discussions. They're probably ego-driven and you're unlikely to get to the root of these issues.