The phrase "Toxic masculinity" is sexist towards men

AshKetchep · 2023-03-03T08:54:06+00:00

The thing that's always bothered me about stuff like this is that these people will always point out things that they deep as "toxic masculinity" and say that it's only a thing men are capable of-

Then ignore that they do the exact same things but it's not given any kind of name or term

PmMeAnnaKendrick · 2023-03-03T11:50:07+00:00

I always use the hate speech test and replace the second word with other groups to see if I'm just being a "fragile man."

Toxic blackness

Toxic gayness

Toxic handicappedness.

EmirikolWoker · 2023-03-03T08:20:10+00:00

When people say "toxic masculinity doesn't mean masculinity is toxic!", ask them: if one could separate the toxicity from masculinity, what would be left that's not a gender neutral trait?

Then watch the backflips. Either:

1) they'll name some traits - implying that women aren't those things.

2) they'll claim that they don't believe in gendering traits - except apparently the "toxic" ones.

3) they'll claim that the traits are only erroneously gendered - in which case, why perpetuate the falsehood by calling the traits toxic masculinity? It would be like having to explain germ theory in terms of the four humours because of tradition.

Oncefa2 · 2023-03-03T13:26:44+00:00

Toxic masculinity has received a lot of backlash from professional and academic psychologists over the last few years.

There are at least two university level psychology textbooks that call it unscientific and harmful.

It's an example of what's known as a deficit approach, which contrasts against the more modern positive psychology. It's also literally a textbook example of something known as labeling theory (kind of like how people are afraid of chemicals because we talk about toxic chemicals all the time).

Negative attitudes towards masculinity have become widely accepted in mainstream public discourse in recent years. In contrast to the “women are wonderful” effect (Eagly et al. 1991), contemporary men are subject to a “men are toxic” effect. The notion of “toxic masculinity” has emerged and has even gained widespread credence despite the lack of any empirical testing (see chapter on masculinity by Seager and Barry). In general terms it appears as if attitudes to men have been based on generalisations made from the most damaged and extreme individual males...

There is a serious risk arising from using terms such as “toxic masculinity”. Unlike “male depression”, which helps identify a set of symptoms that can be alleviated with therapy, the term “toxic masculinity” has no clinical value. In fact it is an example of another cognitive distortion called labelling (Yurica et al. 2005). Negative labelling and terminology usually have a negative impact, including self-fulflling prophecies and alienation of the groups who are being labelled. We wouldn’t use the term “toxic” to describe any other human demographic. Such a term would be unthinkable with reference to age, disability, ethnicity or religion. The same principle of respect must surely apply to the male gender. It is likely therefore that developing a more realistic and positive narrative about masculinity in our culture will be a good thing for everyone.

(Original emphasis).

Seager, M., & Barry, J. A. (2019). Cognitive distortion in thinking about gender issues: Gamma bias and the gender distortion matrix. In The Palgrave handbook of male psychology and mental health (pp. 87-104). Palgrave Macmillan, Cham.

https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-030-04384-1_5

It has been argued that these negative stereotypes of men are perpetuated by all-encompassing buzzwords frequently seen in the media such as ‘patriarchy’, 'male privilege’, ‘rape culture’ and ‘toxic masculinity’ which can shape wider attitudes and policies (Nuzzo, 2019; Barry et al., 2019). Such negative stereotypes may also have been fuelled by recent social movements including #MeToo and moral panics about male sexuality on campus and beyond (Liddon & Barry, 2021; Kipnis, 2017).

Whitley, R. (2021). Men’s Issues and Men’s Mental Health: An Introductory Primer. Springer, Cham.

https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007/978-3-030-86320-3

The other dogma, Pinker argued, 'is that repressing emotions is bad and expressing them is good – a folk theory with roots in romanticism, Freudian psychoanalysis, and Hollywood, but which is contradicted by a large literature showing that people with greater self-control, particularly those who repress anger rather than “venting,” lead healthier lives: they get better grades, have fewer eating disorders, drink less, have fewer psychosomatic aches and pains, are less depressed, anxious, phobic, and paranoid, have higher self-esteem, are more conscientious, have better relationships with their families, have more stable friendships, are less likely to have sex they regretted, and are less likely to imagine themselves cheating in a monogamous relationship.’

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/17/opinion/apa-guidelines-men-boys.html

Further analysis using multiple linear regression found that men’s self-esteem was significantly predicted by older age, more education, and a greater acceptance of traditional masculinity. Men’s mental positivity – which is known to be negatively correlated with suicidality – was significantly predicted by older age, a greater acceptance of traditional masculinity, and more education.

https://zenodo.org/record/3871217#.X-p1ji2l2J_

When in distress, women tend to want to talk about their feelings whereas men tend to want to fix whatever is causing the distress (Holloway et al. 2018). However our mental health services are delivered in a “gender blind” way, so that treatment options that might suit men better are rarely considered (Liddon et al. 2017).

https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-030-04384-1_5

Check out r/MalePsychology also.

ruck_my_life · 2023-03-03T11:50:24+00:00

What's more sinister is that it's perpetuated by society.

Make money, be the provider, be the protector, make the first move, don't have a range of emotions or if you do at least keep that shit to yourself and/or get therapy, be fit, play sports, etc etc.

It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, even in an era of progressive social thought.

ExMuzzy · 2023-03-03T17:05:47+00:00

It is 100% intentional. You know how feminists perform mental gymnastics to claim how the problems men face are actually misogyny?

Fathers being treated unfairly in court is due to people believing women should be nurturers
Men not seeking help because they don't want to be seen as feminine.
etc.

That is the reason they are adamant on the term 'toxic masculinity'. It places the blame back on men or the patriarchy. They believe or at least want society to believe that men's issues stem from misogyny so that misandry does not exist. Therefore, society should place importance on misogyny and since men's issues are rooted in misogyny, trickle-down equality will fix them.

They are delusional and dishonest.

The equivalent term they use for women is internalised misogyny. So the use of the term toxic-masculinity is very deliberate. Notice that if they do use the term 'toxic femininity', it is only to describe themselves as victims. For example, women putting the well being of others before herself.

You don't need to take my word for it though, here are some relevant top comments from askfeminists:

I have yet to see an example of supposed systemic misandry that isn't actually a direct result of systemic misogyny.

...

Toxic femininity is a term used to demonize women that expresses internalized misogyny. Most of these behaviors aren't women making women act more like a woman, they're women acting in a way that misogynists want women to act.

Lol, this is literally the same reason men don't like the term.

Toxic masculinity is not internalized misandry because it still holds men as better than women. Someone who is toxically masculine believes men are naturally better/smarter/stronger/nicer than women and should be in positions of authority. This cannot be misandry. You can argue that masculinity involves taking care of women but that is only because toxic masculinity paints a picture of women as children to be taken care of. Because women do not benefit from toxic masculinity, it is not misandry.

Women don't benefit from being provided for?

KrazyJazz · 2023-03-03T12:15:51+00:00

'Toxic masculinity' is Godwin's Law for feminists nowadays imo. A mantra, a shortcut, for idiots without serious arguments.

SvitlanaLeo · 2023-03-03T14:39:00+00:00

We shouldn't ignore those facts:

masculinity, in its definition, is a set of things associated with males
we live in misandrous society which associates toxic things with males

FumeUGSEnjoyer · 2023-03-03T12:58:39+00:00

well, just put it in the woketard way: "There's no such thing as toxic masculinity because masculinity is a gender trait of being a man, if you disagree with it then you're a bigot. Period." and then watch them doing all mental gymnastics possible in their head. It's fun to watch, believe me.

Dependent_Skill_9924 · 2023-03-03T09:16:34+00:00

The funny thing is this, if the same insult was said of these pathetic insecure women that use the phrase youd be arrested for hate speech and misogyny. Thats what annoys me.

TabulaRasa5678 · 2023-03-03T14:41:50+00:00

I'm still pissed off about that Gillette commercial. I laughed for a week after their stock took a dump after the commercial aired. Keep having women make commercials for mens' products. I don't care if they were selling razors for a penny. I'd still buy anything else for full price.

themolestedsliver · 2023-03-03T16:50:30+00:00

If I had a dollar for the amount of times I was fem-splained "toxic masculinity is only saying a subsect of masculinity is toxic, not that masculinity is in general toxic* I'd be a rich man.

Like I've seen enough women (and sadly men) who use the term to denounce masculinity (in general) that I know for fact it isn't as cut and dry as femnists make it out to be.

If what they are saying had any basis then why do we only focus on one side of the problem?

Where's the discussion about positive masculinity or toxic femininity?

The reason is because toxic masculinity is purely to dismiss and disregard male suffering. Plain and simple

iainmf · 2023-03-04T00:44:34+00:00

Simple test: Ask people who use the term toxic masculinity to stop using it because you find it hurtful.

90% of the time I have done this they tell me to stop being so sensitive. That is, they reinforce 'toxic masculinity'.

This shows me that the term is used to bully and shame men, not help them.

dibberdott · 2023-03-03T13:13:23+00:00

There is nothing toxic about masculinity, people are either toxic or they're not makes no difference on their gender so the actual words toxic masculinity cannot be used together. My masculinity would be experienced if someone hurt my family. My masculinity is the compassion I felt when my little boy trip and ran rocks into his knee and I sued his pain and his tears. My masculinity gives me the calm confidence and stressful situations. I understand that when the words toxic masculinity are used it's usually women referring to the male assholes that use Neanderthal like Behavior to express themselves to females hitting on them cat calls and rudeness of that nature . my own daughters have expressed that it's never ending that there's just assholes around every corner well that's just the way it is , it is not masculine.

decidedlysticky23 · 2023-03-03T13:48:44+00:00

As if by pure chance, all the toxic behaviours are "male" behaviours. Funny that.

jbr945 · 2023-03-03T20:08:19+00:00

I'm ok with the term just as long as it's ok to point out toxic femininity when it's seen, and yes that exists too.

Normal-Yogurtcloset5 · 2023-03-04T03:31:58+00:00

Feminists will call all kind of male behavior toxic up until they want a man to be masculine. Imagine a man and his feminist girlfriend are in a bar and another man grabs her butt. She tells her boyfriend and he does nothing. He didn’t exhibit any toxic masculine behavior but I’ll bet that relationship won’t last much longer.

ZekalMacabre · 2023-03-03T15:54:59+00:00

Because feminism WANTS to hurt/offend men. That's why. It's intentional.

hendrixski · 2023-03-03T12:21:16+00:00

I understand once you listen to the convoluted explanation of what the phrase actually means that it just means "harmful gender expectations/roles" but why use a name which seems almost designed to immediately make men feel defensive and polarise them from any discussion?

Fun fact: we came up with name.

The name "toxic masculinity" sucks it's confusing it sounds offensive and it was made by the men's movement in the 60's. Today it's used to mean exactly what it sounds like "men are toxic".

A BETTER alternative to mean "harmful gender roles forced on us" would be "internalized misandry ". We should use that.

Another thing we can do with discussing it with people is to cross out one and replace it with the other. For example:

I am angry about ~~toxic masculinity~~ internalized misandry and I am advocating for change.

Additionally, we can do the same thing with "patriarchy" which is an offensive term and which is just a misunderstanding of left wing political thought because it's not "men" who oppress people, it's capital. Specifically the men and women of the capitalist class. So you can demonstrate replacement like this:

I'm working to free people oppressed by ~~patriarchy~~ capitalism.

HTH

Man-splain · 2023-03-03T17:44:38+00:00

Demonize the group that is known throughout history to be able and willing to put themselves in harms way to challenge injustices.

https://youtube.com/shorts/CzoNX4ViwgM?feature=share?sub\_confirmation=1

alclarkey · 2023-03-04T00:41:36+00:00

There are some things that some people do, that might be legitimately classified as toxic masculinity. However a good portion of masculine things have been deemed toxic arbitrarily. And when people start throwing around the term "Toxic Feminitity" and it becomes normalized, then I might consider looking into the idea of toxic masculinity a little deeper.

Xfanboi · 2023-03-04T01:29:22+00:00

I said it once and I’ll say it again; this is the realest place on the platform

NameJr2000 · 2023-03-06T01:32:27+00:00

Toxic masculinity is just masculinity pushed to a harmful extreme.

For example:

Toxic masculinity is shaming men to completely suppress their emotions. Toxic masculinity is shaming men and boys for crying and being vulnerable.

Toxic masculinity is shaming men for not being physically strong. It’s shaming men for not being able to lift a certain amount of weight.

Toxic masculinity is claiming men aren’t allowed to show fear that fear is only present in defective men.

Toxic masculinity is shaming men for struggling with women. Shaming them for not having copious amounts of casual sex. Shaming men for desiring deeper relationships with women other than sexual.

Toxic masculinity is shaming men for being gay or bisexual. It even includes men be shamed for being sexual adventurous with women like engaging in pegging, anal, femdom.

Toxic masculinity is shaming a man for not being able to be a provider. Claiming a man is defective if he can’t be a sole provider for his household.

Toxic masculinity is shaming men for a woman being better than them at anything considered masculine. If a woman is stronger than you you’re weak. If a woman is bigger than you you’re frail. If a woman makes more than you you’re a beta.

Toxic masculinity is shaming men for exhibiting the slightest bit of femininity.

Toxic masculinity is using violence to control, intimidate and dominate others. Using it to protect your ego and dominate weaker people.

I hope you get the gist of it now. Men and women can exhibit toxic masculinity. Masculinity isn’t toxic but when these shaming behaviors take place it’s considered toxic masculinity because it corrupts the good values and ideas of traditional masculinity.

letsdoonething · 2023-03-03T08:24:08+00:00

that's true

wasenob6550 · 2023-03-03T14:10:34+00:00

The best form of masculinity is ignoring this brand of woke nonsense. The more you fight it, the more you give it legitimacy. Carry on and live life as you please.

Cautious_c · 2023-03-03T16:13:13+00:00

I think toxic is an adjective that can be applied to anyone. It has nothing to do with masculinity or any particular identity or gender. Hate and bias help no one and only further divide and polarize people.

Fickle-Zombie-4752 · 2023-03-03T12:32:26+00:00

Toxic masculinity does exist, but its the product of being raised by a single mother as a boy.

vanduychr · 2023-03-03T17:33:04+00:00

The phrase no, but how its used. Traits different from women are being labled as toxic but there is definatly toxic male behavior. I would more so go after the phrases like "all men" or debated the issue of what toxic masculinity is and start ysing the phrase toxic femininity (in a propper way not as a eye for an type callout out different women behavior instead of toxic behavior)

Lolocraft1 · 2023-03-03T18:18:57+00:00

There’s toxic masculinity and there’s toxic feminity. What’s wrong is the generalisation making all kind of masculine act toxic

Like bitch I played sport for a long-ass time and I’m toxic because of it? While your "feminine size" of always playing the victim isn’t toxic at all?

Useful-Eggplant9594 · 2023-03-03T18:43:36+00:00

You're misunderstanding. Toxic masculinity does not refer to every single masculine trait. It refers to the traits bred from the necessity for the human male to survive and thrive that are no longer needed in today's society. Such as showing minimal emotion, being quick to aggress, and not asking for help. Toxic femininity is a thing too! and it doesn't refer to every feminine trait!

SvitlanaLeo · 2023-03-03T14:15:51+00:00

Masculinity isn't the nature of being man. Men can be high feminine and people who perpetrate gender policing towards them are abusers.

Wadeem53 · 2023-03-03T10:45:53+00:00

Natural masculinity is great, the only ones to who you can refer the concept of toxic masculinity are dickheads and tradcons like Andrew Tate

Enough_Chemistry3258 · 2023-03-03T18:57:00+00:00

I don't think so. It depends if you're saying masculinity its toxic or "toxic parts of masculinity"

averageenjoyer49 · 2023-03-03T13:22:50+00:00

See hegemonic masculinity then. It is even more insane.

earbus · 2023-03-03T13:30:42+00:00

Masculinity, in it's purest form and truest meaning, can never be toxic.

It is one of those phrases that have lost it's real meaning as our society progressed.

Like the words feminism, aesthetics, etc.

Feminism was never meant for only women. Aesthetics wasn't meant for you fucking phone wallpaper.

wwwhistler · 2023-03-03T14:23:46+00:00

it's gone from describing a subset of Men who display antisocial behaviors and attitudes towards women....to just Men in general.

eye_of_gnon · 2023-03-03T17:26:22+00:00

a lot of 'toxic' masculinity is just normal masculinity

being competitive, as well as the assholish behavior that comes with it, is simply a part of being male. And women reward that behavior by getting with the winner

Rude_Shock343 · 2023-03-03T18:18:49+00:00

No shit

Difficult-Lion-1288 · 2023-03-03T19:23:41+00:00

It doesn’t exist. Masculinity and femininity are natural forces. A storm isn’t toxic, bad people are just bad people.

harmonica2 · 2023-03-04T06:27:33+00:00

I feel like the term toxic masculinity is an ironic term because I find that men who are described as having it, are actually lacking in masculinity it seems, so it seems that 'toxic emasculinity' might be a more accurate term.

Title	The phrase "Toxic masculinity" is sexist towards men
Author	BallKey7607
Upvotes	396
Comments	103
Date	March 3, 2023 7:45 AM UTC (3 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/11gutio/the_phrase_toxic_masculinity_is_sexist_towards_men/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/the-phrase-toxic-masculinity-is-sexist-towards-men.1154660 https://theredarchive.com/post/1154660

Comments

Seager, M., & Barry, J. A. (2019). Cognitive distortion in thinking about gender issues: Gamma bias and the gender distortion matrix. In The Palgrave handbook of male psychology and mental health (pp. 87-104). Palgrave Macmillan, Cham.

Whitley, R. (2021). Men’s Issues and Men’s Mental Health: An Introductory Primer. Springer, Cham.