As a man, I am fed up with RP trying to hijack the definition of masculinity

Plopolok · 2022-09-19T10:18:27+00:00

The same could be said anytime anyone says that something is masculine or feminine. For example, it annoys me when people consider extraverted men to be more masculine (especially since extraversion is statistically more feminine).

If you stretch your argument, you could even say that a low hip/waist ratio doesn't define feminity and a woman who doesn't have it isn't less feminine. Or the same with height for men. Ultimately, people don't have to justify their sexual preferences, and often genuinely can't.

poppy_blu · 2022-09-19T14:04:54+00:00

I think the issue here has always been what is “low count.” If we were talking to normal people in the west with normal dating lives they’d probably agree about not betting on a promiscuous woman for a LTR. But we think of promiscuous as actual high numbers not 2, and problematic behavior that suggests loyalty and honesty aren’t that important to her.

Men on this sub however routinely refer to adult women with counts of 2 and 3 as sluts. Brah you’re entitled to whatever preferences you want but 1) good luck with that and 2) that you prefer virginal women doesn’t make women who aren’t virgins bad people. That’s really the issue. You can have a preference without demonizing people who don’t meet it.

Stop_Maximum · 2022-09-19T12:41:55+00:00

Thats why I think people need to be honest and just say it’s their preference. When they start their argument with “women/men prefer..” I always wonder where they are getting their information from. Like your close circle doesn’t constitute the whole world

2022-09-19T15:57:08+00:00

It's not so much as body counts for me but rather their attitudes and beliefs about sex and romance that matters to me. Like if they believe that people in their 20s just want to have sex and settle at 30and have pesemismistic attitudes beliefs about romance and that these things are eternal part of humanity it's a personal red flag. But largely I do want to avoid hedonistic and pessemestic people in general because these traits could make my OCD worse. I don't think it's a personal preference or biological imperative but rather I believe men with abandonment issues, unhealthy attachment styles, and struggling with OCD coupled with romantic value of sex are going to want people with low n count because they want to feel safe and want people to validate their personal experiences

2022-09-19T10:58:20+00:00

I agree with many of your points. Red pills do have some valid criticisms of society, but in general they are backwards and overly-negative toxic people who overthink and overanalyze society from afar, with the internet as their shield and echo chamber. It leads them to a warped view of reality.

That said, you don't need to argue with them about masculinity - the global order is already takig care of them. They are being disenfranchised and deplatformed as we speak. They are also being laughed at in mainstream media as angry little failures. The education system is teaching kids to have the very opposite values that RPs do. With the fall of Trump, the red pill crowd falls too. Any who plot violent acts against society are being monitored, arrested and charged for terrorism offences. They also constantly offend people in the workplace and miss out on those promotions or even lose their jobs. They are probably nearly friendless, outside of internet forums.

The tides are changing. There are also much more important issues creeping in on the horizon; we just had a global pandemic that killed millions, while now a War in Ukraine and Russia-West geopolitical standoff, an energy crisis, global inflation, a cost of living crisis, climate change posing an existential threat and more.

I think arguing about annoying dyed-hair SJWs and similar is no longer in fashion.

nvkr_ · 2022-09-19T14:43:20+00:00

A lot of the "biology"/"evolution" excuses for gender behaviour enforcement like women should raise the children instead of working and men should be stoic instead acknowledging mental distress are already being dismantled as being stupid. This one will hopefully also go away in the next generation.

2022-09-19T15:35:19+00:00

N-count conversations are a waste of time. All of them.

Valuable-Marzipan761 · 2022-09-19T08:46:29+00:00

There was a post a couple of days ago saying the same as you, it's just icky. Just a preference that's not necessarily logical, like preferif a certain race or hair colour.

risdeveau · 2022-09-19T08:36:02+00:00

Counterpoint —- why care what an unsuccessful minority thinks?

7186997326 · 2022-09-19T16:54:24+00:00

At this point, unless you can verify completion of post graduate level studies on the subject matter, I really don't care to hear about Reddit's thoughts on male/female biology, on either side of the issues.

ThisBoringLife · 2022-09-19T19:08:20+00:00

"Hijack the definition of masculinity", how?

One, that means you have a "standard definition" in mind, one that RP groups supposedly are trying to change.

N-count preference has never been part of that definition.

HazyMemory7 · 2022-09-19T20:02:05+00:00

I want to reject that notion. I am not saying that there isn’t a majority of men who prefer low n count women - but I really want to emphasize that this is a personal preference and not a male quality in general.

You have provided zero empirical evidence whatsoever for your claims.
There are legitimate reasons to prefer a low n count woman; paternity fraud rates are higher than most people think, and promiscuity is correlated with infidelity.
Ask most men how they would feel about wifing up a girl who has slept with 50+ dudes and see how they answer. Then get back to me and tell me it's not a male quality.
Last, and perhaps most importantly, men are not hiding behind evolutionary reasons. Those reasons are in addition to the primary reason, which men are very candid about: high n count in women is just inherently unattractive, if you want to date a woman seriously.

FineDevelopment00 · 2022-09-19T20:30:32+00:00

Caring about the n count of your partner is not a gendered preference

First of all,

Thank you so much for this! 💯

if I don’t care about a womens n count, I am not less of a man than a person who does. Inversely, if a women prefers a man with a low n count, that doesn’t make her masculine or less of a woman.

Absolutely correct! What makes a person male or female has nothing to do with said person's preferences.

it’s just a way to not be held accountable to their preferences - so they’re hiding the personal element of their preferences behind a supposed male biological imperative that prevented them from desiring a high n count women. Often, if you read between the lines, they really want to say, women in general should behave the way they prefer

You've almost got it, but there's more to it that I didn't notice you mention. What I'm seeing is that it's a crutch they use to maintain their double standard in demanding a behavior in others that they themselves are not willing to live up to, because pretty much every time I see someone argue this it's a man who is promiscuous on some level or other (or who wants to be) who is getting all defensive about feeling entitled to a virgin bride (or at the very least, a woman who hasn't screwed around nearly as much as he has) once he's done with the hookup scene (or once the hookup scene is done with him.) By reducing it all down to biology he gets the idea that he himself won't have to take any responsibility for his own participation in what he demands women not do. He wants women to behave a certain way while he gets to follow his sexual whims; basically he wants to have his cake and eat it too.

If we strip the n count preference from biological or evolutionary explanations, we could have a more productive discussion around it. Because then people can’t hide behind the fact that they just can’t help it for biological reasons - and they’d have to think about where this preference comes from and in what cases it might be really justified. Not that you have to justify all your preferences per se - but if you want other people to behave accordingly, you should give them a valid reason to do so.

Right, they would then have to acknowledge that there's something deeper to the issue. They might even have to face the verity that it's a moral issue and thus it cannot be compared to simple matters of attraction and/or preference such as a short woman wanting to date a tall man or a man wanting to date a woman with big breasts while ofc he himself does not have them. They'd also have to confront the idea that like attracts like and if they are promiscuous they'll attract promiscuous people while turning off any self-respecting virgins (although even their promiscuous counterparts will often get turned off of them once they find out those dudes are holding an unfair double standard.) They'll have to confront the idea that if they talk the talk against hookup culture they should walk the walk too, because it takes both men and women to keep hookup culture going no matter how their silly manoshperian horoscope validates their selfish bias. But they don't wanna do that so they'll hamster away by claiming it's inherently biological for men to hoe around and expect virgin brides after and for women (no matter said women's personal stances on hookup culture and moral standards) to go for manwhores. And they do this in the hopes that some naive ladies will fall for it. That's why they get so bent out of shape when women, especially women like myself who waited until marriage and thus have no personal bias about sLuT-sHaMiNg or AF/BB or whatever, call them out on their hypocrisy.

WilliamWyattD · 2022-09-19T11:20:24+00:00

You are oversimplifying a complex issue.

There is a natural and widespread evolved preference for a kind of sexual purity in women. But the strength of this preference varies, and is mediated greatly by culture.

A lot of guys are LARPing that they feel this preference more strongly than they really do in order to try to 'balance' the SMP because they feel women have too much power now. On the other hand, many women are being silly and pretending it doesn't matter at all.

Finally, one has to examine the fairness of leaning into this preference in a social setting where we have basically created a sexual free for all.

Ultrashitposter · 2022-09-19T15:02:20+00:00

Offer a better alternative then. In my experience, all the guys who follow "healthy" masculinity or "new" masculinity are just spineless groveling losers who still have to bear all the burdens that other guys have to bear, except they get none of the benefits of gender roles and they're usually to meek to speak up.

2022-09-19T15:39:45+00:00

If we strip the n count preference from biological or evolutionary explanations, we could have a more productive discussion around it.

Why would we do that? If you're trying to understand human behaviour why wouldn't you begin from a position of human evolution?

Humans aren't divine beings, we're animals, we act like animals most of the time.

RP trying to hijack the definition of masculinity

'Hijack' how? By returning it to a definition that would have been perfectly comprehensible to 99% of human civilizations that have ever existed?

moresleepy1 · 2022-09-19T08:46:10+00:00

No this isn't the problem that your making it to be your just to sensitive. humans have 5 digits on their hands does that mean that a person with 6 isn't a human? you have to do some generalizing.

second their is nothing to strip down about men not wanting to commit to high N women its a preference like any other and it doesn't have to be justified like any other preference.

Guys just want women to be honest about who they are so the can exclude them from potential partners and women don't want to be excluded from anything even if its a valid reason so they hide who they are. their is never going to be an perfect solution for both.

igobythenameofadam · 2022-09-19T10:31:18+00:00

First and foremost, not wanting slutty women is not per se related to the said women, but to man's reputation.

Imagine being with a woman who've slept with 100 men. Unless she moved cities, there's a big chance you'll meet a lot of men who fucked her without giving her commitment, who've done things to her there's a big chance she isn't allowing you to do to her, etc., and here you are doing relationshipy stuff for her when she is not worth it.

Men don't want to be the ones getting sloppy seconds after some randoms.

Of course, you can not care about it, but this is the mechanism at play.

It's all about respect from other men, except for the obvious stuff like diseases and lack of impulse control.

statsfodder · 2022-09-19T12:31:56+00:00

Have Standards, not preferences.

BridgeBurner22 · 2022-09-19T13:55:26+00:00

I am not saying that there isn’t a majority of men who prefer low n count women - but I really want to emphasize that this is a personal preference and not a male quality in general.

You don't understand evolution, if you really believe this. Evolution has made us grossed out by certain things because they represent a possible threat to our survival.

Hairy spider > possibly lethal bite > evolution made sure we are grossed out so we don't go near.

Slithering noodle on the floor > possibly lethal bite from snake > grossed out so we don't go near.

Female promiscuous behavior > big chance of getting cucked and not reproducing yourself, which is equal to evolutionary death > grossed out so we don't go near.

Survival is not just staying alive, real survival means passing on your genes. Something that's harder to do with a promiscuous partner. Paternity fraud is something that exists and is pretty common. Therefore evolution has made sure men (who are the only ones in danger of not knowing they did not reproduce) are repulsed by promiscuous female behaviors. The repulsion is there not just because, but to protect us. Being repulsed by a hairy spider is not a personal preference, just like being repulsed by female promiscuous behavior is not a personal preference. They are both mechanisms to ensure survival, that are ingrained in us by evolution.

I_took_both_pill · 2022-09-19T09:27:04+00:00

So your basing your worth on what RP says. Does this mean you believe what RP says, have you bought into the RP frame?

If not, why do you care?

Why does it bother you so much. Have you thought of not basing your self worth on RP?

Stop being so sensitive, man the fuck up.

2022-09-19T15:18:33+00:00

Tabula Rasa is nonsense, sorry to burst your ridiculous delusion.

AutoModerator · 2022-09-19T08:16:11+00:00

Attention!

You can post off topic/jokes/puns as a comment to this Automoderator message.
For "CMV" and "Question for X" Threads: Parent comments that aren't from the target group will be removed, along with their child replies.
If you want to agree with OP instead of challenging their view or if the question is not targeted at you, post it as an answer to this comment.
OP you can choose your own flair according to these guidelines., just press Flair under your post!

Thanks for your cooperation and enjoy the discussion!

I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.

Makaveli676 · 2022-09-19T14:35:51+00:00

Yeah, I agree, I don’t think it’s an inherent quality of a man.

but if you want other people to behave accordingly, you should give them a valid reason to do so

Not at all. Regardless of the cause of that preference, it abounds in many men, mostly in men who can afford it, higher value men, but those are the exact types of men women yearn for so if they want to achieve a man of that value then they must comply, without need of an explanation.

I attribute it to evolution but who knows exactly? It is what it is.

tired_hillbilly · 2022-09-19T15:57:46+00:00

The problem with this argument you're making where you say "Less than 100% of men X, therefore X isn't a masculine thing even those most men do X" is that it ends up meaning basically nothing is masculine. The only thing I can think of that would still be masculine based on that definition is having XY chromosomes.

Ohyarlysmiles · 2022-09-19T19:11:50+00:00

I like how people sidestep the obvious. Men like low n-count women because....(drumroll) most men are low n-count themselves. Why does it need to be masculinity, biology, or any high falutin concept?

Drougen · 2022-09-19T22:08:15+00:00

Often, if you read between the lines, they really want to say, women in general should behave the way they prefer, because otherwise they’ll have problems finding a partner (because all men think like that, because biology).

I mean people can say / think whatever the fuck they want. Personally if a woman my age tells me she's slept with 40 different people I'm going to be thinking, so you slept with 40 different people and none of them wanted to date or marry you...?

but I really want to emphasize that this is a personal preference and not a male quality in general.

Yes, a preference of the majority of men who are looking for a serious relationship.

Inversely, if a women prefers a man with a low n count, that doesn’t make her masculine or less of a woman.

Wtf? Wanting someone who hasn't had sex with a ton of people isn't a masculine trait, it's a common sense thing.

If we strip the n count preference from biological or evolutionary explanations, we could have a more productive discussion around it

I mean, are people honestly not capable of thought? If someone sleeps with a ton of people they don't put much value in physical connections (which for a lot of people is something special) at a minimum.

Because then people can’t hide behind the fact that they just can’t help it for biological reasons - and they’d have to think about where this preference comes from and in what cases it might be really justified.

It doesn't NEED to be justified. People can just say they don't want to be partners with people who sleep around a lot period.

if you want other people to behave accordingly, you should give them a valid reason to do so.

Fuck other people, if they can't handle someone having a preference they can go away.

Title	As a man, I am fed up with RP trying to hijack the definition of masculinity
Author	nvkr_
Upvotes	14
Comments	132
Date	September 19, 2022 8:16 AM UTC (3 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/xi5upz/as_a_man_i_am_fed_up_with_rp_trying_to_hijack_the/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/as-a-man-i-am-fed-up-with-rp-trying-to-hijack-the.1208744 https://theredarchive.com/post/1208744

Comments

Thank you so much for this! 💯