Is a large component of the male loneliness epidemic the general feeling of being undesirable?

SpicyMarshmellow · 2024-03-13T13:53:56+00:00

Speaking for myself, in a sense, yes. Not in terms of romantic or sexual desirability. But in terms of how mainstream acceptable it is to be generalizing and hateful towards men. Even if I'm treated ok by someone as an individual, if they make generalized hateful statements about men all the time, I get uncomfortable knowing that if I were just a random person on the street to them, they would hate me by default. Or that the messages they spread contribute to me being hated by default by other random strangers. And outside of conservative spaces, it seems like a majority of men are ok with this or have even fully internalized it and developed varying levels of self-hatred. I don't fit in with conservative culture, and have grown uncomfortable being around men who play along with the misandrist zeitgeist too. And that zeitgeist also makes it difficult for me to talk about my most formative life experience, which basically means it's difficult for anyone to even get to know me. So I keep to myself or have shallow relationships with people.

TisIChenoir · 2024-03-13T17:00:51+00:00

Honestly yes. I'm in a long term relationship, so not concerned by the dating market. But I had (and it still lingers) a lot of resentment. Not toward women as people, but toward the fact that women are desirable in society, they are pursued, sought after, and can basically have a romantic life, even if they don't have to put themselves out there (basically just existing).

I'm not saying this is easy for women. But they have a much lower barrier to entry in interpersonal relationships.

And all in all, I'm pretty much convinced that a lot of women, if they had to endorse the male role in romantic relationships dynamics, would be even more bitter and hateful than the most hateful of male incels.

dobbydoodaa · 2024-03-13T14:44:18+00:00

Literally every single time there's a popular post about it, the comments are loaded with hateful shitheads blaming men, saying it's their own violence and rapist nature that causes this. Or comments saying women are just advancing far beyond men and desire better men that exist.

Society is hateful trash that is trying to destroy men at every angle. You can't even talk about it without being vilified and hated.

It wasn't men that started this, and it isn't men that are mostly supporting this. We know where the problem is. Do you blame black people when the KKK talk vile crap about them and try to hurt them?

In terms of loneliness in general, though, I think it is largely felt by both men and women in relatively similar amounts. The difference, of course, is how society reacts to it per the above.

leonreddit8888 · 2024-03-13T14:39:26+00:00

I've grown to a stage where I really don't want my argument to sound like a very generic "social media destroy everything", so let's hope I make a respectful take.

But I think people in general, not just men, are really lonely, or generally speaking, unfulfilled in so many aspects, because of real issues like financial struggles will always haunt everyone.

Having genuine and healthy companionship can help alleviate the fraustration. However, we are living in an era where the social capitol is very low. One reason is that our entertainment had become individualized for decades.

What do I mean? Well, a long time ago, when you want to enjoyment, people would attend social groups, parties, clubs... With TV, you can experience joy by... yourself, though the fact that most families only had one TV before meant that you had to talk to your family members how to allot the time of watching TV, or you would watch TV together.

The point was that there were still human interactions, though less and less.

With the internet, your entertainment can truly be individualized. You can just scroll your phones in all kinds of apps. You can watch Youtube videos all day to get stimulated.

You don't have to interact with people, and this drastically lowers people's incentive to interact with each other. Or maybe our great social media can fix that by connecting us with far more people...

But would they? Social media's features to help shape the presentation for the users, such as editing and filter systems, create idealized version of the users. Many problems would arise:

The people you interact on Instagram may not be how they show themselves as (Real life interactions would suffer this same problem, but I would say this problem is way worse on the internet), so there will often be a sense of artificial-ness when you interact with another user.
When you yourself aren't that good at packaging yourself, and if you look at someone with some really shiny profile, you aren't going to feel too good, because the other person appear "superior" to you.

So your fraustration gets worse and worse, and we aren't even talking about how awful conversations can get in online spaces... Seriously, conversations on Reddit do suck, until you find out that Twitter sucks worse... And Youtube comment section (though technically not a social media)? I've seen Youtube comments so toxic that you wouldn't even see on Reddit... There are people there who basically tell harassed victims to just deal with it (the instance was the woman who owned the house used to shoot Breaking Bad... God, these people are sick.)

As for why men seem to be affected in an even worse manner than women? My obersavation in this part is limited so I could get things wrong (ironic since I'm a man... I am autistic, so I wasn't good at figuring out large-scale problems).

I think that has something to do with how many men usually behave. Many of us, in a way, are ok that we... don't talk about our problems or that we are bad at talking about our problems, particularly emotional ones.

In fact, because us guys don't talk about ourselves, I actually thought only I have this problem growing up, but the problem was common in many guys. When medical professionals talk about the same phenomenon, I think it's very likely to be true.

So we put our problems within ourselves and don't want to talk about it even when asked, while women are more ok talking about their problems (the stereotypical "women always complain"). I think because of that. women seem to be more capable of forming bonds, which, even if the friend group couldn't solve problems, could at least alleviate the fraustration.

Us guys? Well, we try to "fix" them even if we don't know how (I think our social perception of "men must be tough" really really doesn't help...), and sometimes the problems are too big to be fixed, like the economy... the current state of the world... etc.

Do we want to go to social media to vent? Shit, we run to problem 1 and 2...

hottake_toothache · 2024-03-13T15:54:31+00:00

It is an epidemic. I certainly feel it.

There is a taboo against discussing it because anything the suggests that women have an advantage over men in any regard is forbidden. The root of this taboo is two-fold: (1) people don't care about men and so don't want to hear about our problems, and (2) women only think about the tiny percentage of men at the top, and so, from women's perspective, "men" do have plentiful advantages (because they define "men" to exclude the vast majority of us).

Vegetable_Camera5042 · 2024-03-13T13:49:39+00:00

I think a huge solution here is that men shouldn't base their self worth as a man or masculinity on validation from society. And just focus on themselves. And their own ways to make themselves happy without trying to pretend to be someone else in order for them to get the bare minimum.

Feminism is always preaching about self care to women. But when it comes to men. Everybody from feminists, conservatives, the red pill, and in between perpetuate this issue of men basing the self worth on what others think of them. How much money they have, how women they sleep with.

I noticed men more likely to be asked if they have girlfriends. I'm always getting ask this question lol. Because a lot of people in society still view a man without a girlfriend/wife or even girlfriends/wives as incomplete or a failure.

Because whether we like it or not. Men are only valuable for what they can do for society. This is universal. Even the most progressive people or leftists still view men as protectors and providers.

Maffioze · 2024-03-13T14:30:57+00:00

I think there is an issue here where people basically have an anarchocapitalist view on the dating market, yet many of those same people support socialist ideas everywhere else.

I completely understand that there is a difference between goods and people obviously, but it does seem very convenient for certain people to hold this kind of dichotomy because they perceive themselves as maximally profiting from it.

When it comes to capitalism in general, many people recognize that actually free markets often do not exist in their idealistic form, that people make irrational decisions all the time, and that there are clearly issues with seeing a price set by supply and demand as being a true and sole marker of the value of a certain product. Free market economists assume that people are capable of accurately assigning value to both products and labour, which is something I personally have serious doubts about. I do understand why people like free markets though, as it seems to be somehow linked to lesser authoritarianism (but more classist oppression). The idea that someone else determines what should be the right choice for you is dangerous for very obvious reasons.

Most people don't even consider that the same problems might be affecting the dating market. Instead they are anarchocapitalist, and treat dating as something that should completely free of rules, judgement, social norms, etc. No one is entitled to a partner. Which is something I agree with, but it completely misses the point and is based on an overly idealistic portrayal of people's decision making. Some people self-sabotage, others become delusional because of social media, others are indoctrinated, etc. This means that people are going to have valid reasons to complain about the dating market and no its not about being entitled.

If a man complains that he can't find a woman he considers to be of equal value to him, he is told that he's overrating himself and that what he can get determines his value, but how does this really compare when he has to be more educated, wealthier, a better person, etc to get a woman who is less educated, wealthier, a worse person, etc? I know this an hyperbolic example, but I'm making it to illustrate that the possibility that the "market" might be doing an unequal job at assigning value to people. Value is seen in terms of market dynamics, but that's not the only possible idea of value people are allowed to hold.

What makes this worse is that people are way more likely to acknowledge these issues with the dating market whenever they do harm women. An example of this the phenomenon of passport bro's, who go to developing countries to pick up women. This is also the result of free dating market dynamics, but here it is seen as exploiting foreign women. However no one even entertains the notion that men can be exploited in the domestic dating market (for example by the majority of women enforcing traditional gender roles on them) as they are considered less desirable. Another example I have seen talked about is that women in college feel forced to have sex earlier than they are comfortable with, because they are overrepresented on colleges relative to men, which gives men in college the power to enforce their desires.

simplymoreproficient · 2024-03-13T14:29:35+00:00

I absolutely agree with this. I framed this to myself as „women are the desirable gender“ just two days ago, thanks for writing it out and helping me order my thoughts a little.

eli_ashe · 2024-03-15T21:26:29+00:00

You're definitely not crazy. This is part of a gaslighting thing the ladies are doing. Denying their own roles in the problems, so they don't really have to take accountability for it.

As all the comments here can attest to, there is simply a detestable disposition that women, not all women of course, express bout men in particular, to which they refuse to own up to. Hence, it is 'men blaming women for their loneliness' rather than understanding that women are active participants in the processes of dating and other activities in general.

It's a classic 'feminine demurred' maneuver whereby women feign vulnerability and weakness in order to absolve themselves of responsibility while simultaneously blaming someone else for the action.

BloomingBrains · 2024-03-17T08:07:03+00:00

Your feelings are valid. A lot of guys feel the same way, trust me. I did for most of my 20's, which unfortunately kind of ruined such a valuable time in my life.

The important thing is to realize its not *just* a feeling. Or rather, many guys feel this way for a good reason. They actually *are* undesirable, according to mainstream standards. If a feeling comes from accurately assessing reality, is it really a feeling anymore or just a fact?

Sorry if this seems like a nitpick, but I just want to get it out there that this is reality, because "feelings" can always be dismissed as "well, guys just feel that way, but its not actually so".

Im_halfway_right · 2024-03-19T05:55:10+00:00

I'm late to this thread but this post and replies has resonated with me so I want to share my experience as well...

I'm over 30 now, and ever since I left college I've been slowly coming to realize how undesirable I am. As is common, college friends drift away and you have to go out into the adult world trying to make new ones. And yet people don't seem to want to be associated with me. I don't think I have a bad personality or offensive viewpoints, I just have developed intense social anxiety from what I've observed in the world.

Strangers actively avoid me in public if we make the briefest of eye contact. I've tried going to group events for my hobbies but never had met anyone that wanted to be friends (even if we talk a lot at the meetup). I'm "successful" by many of the standards society sets: I make more than enough money, own my house, go on vacations, etc. But I still feel like an outcast, undesirable beyond the labor I provide to my workplace.

And then there is the soul-crushing experience of my romantic life. It's hard enough to be introverted and ask women out irl (which I have, dating apps weren't popular yet when I was in school). I have been on the apps for 6 years, and tried the premium versions. I took people's advice on my profile, tried to "better" myself, and "lowered" my standards by swiping right on women I didn't find immediately attractive (not just physically, I read through profiles). From all of that work, I can count the number of matches I have had on my fingers. And those have led to 0 dates.

So I've been single my entire life. And if I try to talk about it to anyone, I am given responses ranging from "you need to work on yourself/date in your range" to "suck it up, stop being a pussy". This latter remark hurt especially bad because it was from a close female friend in college. But all these responses are unsympathetic because it places the blame on me for being undesirable, that I need to change who I fundamentally am to receive anything close to acceptance as a human being.

So yeah. I'm alone and it hurts especially because I feel like I am not wanted. Sorry for the dear diary write up, I wanted to vent. I'm in an especially dark place right now struggling with depression.

BattleFrontire · 2024-03-14T11:23:23+00:00

This is something I've been struggling with a lot lately. It gets especially tricky since there's a fine line between feeling this way due to frustrations around men's current status in society vs. feeling this way due to actually being a trans woman and I still haven't figured out which side of that I'm really on.

tonicKC · 2024-03-15T22:14:09+00:00

Definitely is for my social anxiety…I don’t feel like I deserve to take up space or anyone’s time…even servers of bar tenders I feel like I’m bothering them with my presence cuz public spaces are for attractive people and especially women. I know part of it is my own anxiety but I definitely notice how much nicer and attentive service industry staff are if you are in a group with women and especially attractive women. When it’s me and other make friends that are about my looksmatch it ranges from indifference to annoyance unless it’s a bartender we know etc.

BKEnjoyerV2 · 2024-03-19T15:10:37+00:00

Yes this is how I feel personally, not sure how it is for others. I don’t feel like anyone wants to be my friend, let alone a romantic partner. I’m very lonely, part of that is just where I’m at in life and trying to find some kind of stability and satisfaction particularly with my job, but still. I don’t have many long term connections anymore apart from my family and one friend. I feel I get looked over in all parts of my life. I feel useless and purposeless.

And on top of that my old Title IX case and poor self esteem. I feel like others will think I’m creepy/weird because in the past I used people and I thought that having social connections would just inherently make me feel good about myself/better than others. And then I didn’t understand how I had to put effort in on my own end in social things and in life in general.

So it’s a combination of feeling undesirable and my own stupidity/lack of knowledge I suppose overall. As a guy, one’s negatives are not supposed to be understood or helped, rather avoided, hidden, or castigated for

Educational_Mud_9062 · 2024-03-14T01:06:36+00:00

Yes. People want to be wanted. That doesn't just boil down to sexual desirability, although that's usually a component. The desire to be desired is arguably the most universal human characteristic.

motheaas · 2024-03-13T16:34:11+00:00

MissDaphneAlice · 2024-03-13T14:58:05+00:00

If society treated women the way they treat men, there wouldn't be enough healthy women to have healthy children. We are driven by genetic expansion. Biological priority #1 is to survive to reproduce. This all makes perfect sense if you study other animals and insects, game theory, physics, etc.

helo-_- · 2024-03-13T20:27:29+00:00

woman here. i think what you're saying is true but men wouldn't necessarily be happier if it was the other way around. this whole desirability thing only affects your if you let it, for one. everyone should focus on how to decenter your mind from others rather than spend time wondering why or how to get more attention. more attention isn't necessarily good. yes women may get more outward attention from men than the other way around. but that's because of general disrespect and objectification of women. so if everything was the other way around and men were objectified more, you would get more attention, but you would also go through the sexual harassment, abuse, wage gap, all the bad things women go through systemically as a result etc etc. your problems wouldn't go away if you were more desirable, you would just get different ones.

this also isn't accounting for if you fit beauty standards or not. objectively ugly women definitely don't feel more desirable than the average man.

Title	Is a large component of the male loneliness epidemic the general feeling of being undesirable?
Author	illegalhemp
Upvotes	163
Comments	88
Date	March 13, 2024 12:05 PM UTC (2 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/comments/1bdpt5y/is_a_large_component_of_the_male_loneliness/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/is-a-large-component-of-the-male-loneliness.1427067 https://theredarchive.com/post/1427067

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