Masculinity (or "Toxic" Masculinity, if you will) is the creation of women and women alone. It is the cumulative result of countless generations of mate selection by women since humankind began, and it has only been allowed to propagate as a result of women choosing it. Change my mind.

darla10 · 2018-05-23T10:01:56+00:00

Men fought other men for territory and resources. The winners (smarter, stronger, faster. Masculine winners) took the women. They made babes. Those babies grew up to be women who preferred winners. The end.

clawjelly · 2018-05-23T08:35:09+00:00

Are you saying women are to blame for an evolutionary process? I'm sorry, that's just silly. As much as i dislike feminists, but this is such an oversimplification of a very, very complex system. As such you might say that women are actually responsible for humanity not living in stone age anymore, as they selected the best men.

Can we please keep these kinds of discussions to what people are conciously doing right or wrong? Maybe like in a lifespan of one or more humans, not in like millions of years...?

whitebunny87 · 2018-05-23T00:01:23+00:00

Can you clear up what your argument actually is? Because it doesn't make much sense at the moment.

Are you saying that countless generations of women selecting masculine mates led to some kind of physical evolution toward masculinity?

Or are you saying that men display "toxic masculinity" because they watch which mates women choose today and try to emulate that?

Madness20 · 2018-05-22T23:47:10+00:00

Women often have not had their choice of mate, or their choice of mate has been constrained (by their family for example)

There are aspects of masculinity that are appealing in a man to other men that women either don't care about as much (at least they do not care about these traits in themselves, but they do like the fruits) or do not care for as strongly (look at the kind of male body that men consider masculine and the male body that women consider masculine, there have been differences)

Women on the whole don't actually prefer ripped stoic hypermasculine badass warlords, they prefer the decadent, rich, highly prestigious sons and heirs of hypermasculine badass warlords. Most would however consider the warlord more masculine.

Poster515 · 2018-05-22T23:48:16+00:00

Seriously contradicting your thesis is that masculinity has been expressed in so, so many different ways in different cultures over time.

The 18th century French court would have found the Marlboro Man to be a gross unmanly laborer. Americans find Japanese action heroes to be swishy. Ancient Chinese masculinity was very warlike but also strangely homoerotic with all its oaths between brothers. Even over the space of a few decades it gets blurry. 1970s Burt Reynolds characters: can't tell if masculine.

There's no linear progression from a to z. Sexual selection doesn't take us steadily from the ultra-feminine Moses to the ultra-masculine Justin Bieber. Instead, it just zags all over the place.

Guywithgirlwithabike · 2018-05-23T03:03:53+00:00

So you are saying because of what woman prefer in a males results in a toxic masculinity mentally of men trying to reach these standards?

Do you agree that what men biologically want in womaen created promiscuity?

Men made toxic mansculinity. Its men over years and years decided that men were disposable and only the stronger ones won. (Fighting, wars, etc) It was and has been survival of the fittest. The stronger ones then had the right to mate ensuring continuation of their blood and name. Where did woman take any part of this? Men (fathers) married their young children off to men that are met by THEIR standards, not by the womans. Young women were married off for buisness, not love. They had no say - and many places still to this day they don't. Marrying for love is something new and those aspects of marrying for love still mirror historic aspects of; providing, security, good genes jst like how men still chose a mate based on looks, "child bearing hips", genes, etc.

Men are competitive by nature. Men fight, men beat the weaker ones. Which is why you have fathers telling their sons to man up - not the woman. Many people state that a boy needs their father in order to grow up into a man, and actually critic feminism for creating these coddeld sensitive children - so how can woman be creating toxic masculinity yet also senesitive/feminine boys?

LeJacquelope · 2018-05-23T06:18:48+00:00

Oh God, no, that is as spitefully wrong-headed as women saying toxic masculinity even exists at all. If it existed it was the creation of men and women alike. But in reality toxic masculinity doesn't exist - only toxic humanity exists.

Feminists used to have an older term for what they call toxic masculinity - power dynamics. And that affects both men and women.

TheGreasyPole · 2018-05-23T09:06:45+00:00

This is more an “extend your view” than a “change it”. Because your title so far as I can see is just trivially true. We’re evolved animals, selection by the females evolved male traits/psychology... just as Male mate selection also evolved females/feminist.

However, you’ve missed out the role of natural selection (as opposed to sexual selection). I’d change your view to incorporate this as well.

Some features that are “masculine” were selected by the evolutionary environment and not just women.

Men’s orientation to objects and sports is probably a result of natural selection for hunting skills (for example) whilst females were naturally selected for gathering and nurturing skills.

For similar reasons men were selected for war/aggression too, not necessarily sexually selected for it. Pregnant women/women with small children could not be risked in war in an “evolutionary sense” (if they die, the kiddies die). Men could.

Similarly men display/compete/fight in humans as with other animals because it was naturally selected (as it is with other animals) not sexually selected.

So your title is true, it’s just incomplete.

I’d say in relation to male traits generally it’s probably roughly 50:50 Sexual/natural selection. In relation to traits concerned with attraction and mating it’s more 90:10 sexual:natural selection.

You’ve just got to extend it a little to make it completely true.

Have I CYV by persuading you to extend it out into natural/environmental selection rather than (as your original claim) it being 100% sexual/female selection ?

pennycenturie · 2018-05-23T07:52:22+00:00

For much of history women all over the world had little to no say in whom they married. There were cases of love marriage in all historical civilizations, but compared to the seller’s market of today, the familial influence and economic factors of marriage left relatively little up to women’s preferences. The successes of masculinity which made a given male desirable to families to wed their daughters to was a product of the relationships between masculinities rather than between femininity and masculinity.

That being said, I take responsibility for my own tastes in toxic masculinity, but I notice a particular brand of sour man who’s currently capable of challenging their own conduct. Believing men shouldn’t cry and rape culture are both symptoms of the disease but shouldn’t be conflated - toxic masculinity is indeed an ancient tradition and so cannot be solved overnight, but some men right now are doing a fantastic job of improving, when they consider they may make errors and make efforts to avoid making them again.

Traz_Onmale · 2018-05-23T05:24:23+00:00

Female mate selection is also the result of evolution. Women find the brutish warrior types attractive because those types spread their genes everywhere by raping the other tribes. Children of such guys are more likely to be similarly successful in spreading their genes. If those men had just calmed down, the behavior and those traits wouldn't exist now.

Women who found nice traits attractive had selective pressure working against them.

Melthengylf · 2018-05-23T11:16:41+00:00

I don't buy leftist blank slate, but this biological determinism is also riddicule. Are suicides also natural?

gmanex · 2018-05-23T03:41:37+00:00

Well, women haven't had a buffet of men easily available at their fingertips until the Internet came

InformalCriticism · 2018-05-23T09:58:34+00:00

Women have only been allowed to choose their mates for the last couple hundred years. Our species is vastly more male-competitive rather than female selective. Just look at how much bigger and stronger men are even when they don't exercise. And if they do, the disparity becomes painfully obvious.

Female mate selection is a new thing, and it's a bad thing primarily because we are not a female selective species, (i.e. women don't know what the fuck they're doing).

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Barneysparky · 2018-05-23T02:44:12+00:00

Dependency disorder is only a disorder if the woman was not raised in a patriarchal culture that encourages men to be narrasitic.

Guywithgirlwithabike · 2018-05-23T01:07:37+00:00

Red and blackpill to the core here, but OP's view only holds water if you're talking about generations prior to any type of peaceful civilization. Afterward how do you account for the sheer amount of women who propagate with beta males b/c of betabux and the fact that many women didn't have control over their choice of mate? The meme of a woman having Chad's baby while her beta unknowingly provides is a powerful one not without merit, but even then these cases are very much a minority.

Young_Oryx · 2018-05-23T04:18:11+00:00

OP, this post has already been up for several hours and received many comments, so I'll leave it up. However, in the future please make more of an effort to explain your view clearly in the body of your post. Low effort posts such as this one do not encourage quality debate.

ht44c · 2018-05-23T10:03:32+00:00

Pretty much...even if we assume a dominating patriarchy of rape culture, women could have still self-terminated those pregnancies.

Neither sex has all the power, never has and never will.

redpillrobert · 2018-05-23T04:34:58+00:00

change my mind

what a fucktard way to end a decent point

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