"Until we reassess what it means to be a “real man” then men will continue to beat their wives and murder LBGT people to ease their own self-loathing."

holyjesusitsahorse · 2016-06-18T16:06:47+00:00

Honestly, my first thought when reading the title in the OP is that all I would have to do is to take that sentence and insert the word "black" or "Muslim" before the word "man" in order to set off a Twitter storm (which is the actual goal of all journalism nowadays, but let's not dwell on that). It's very interesting what groups you're allowed to assign collective blame to for the actions of individuals and which groups you aren't.

But yes, I'd say there's something fairly distasteful about the whole thing. It's taking the murder of 50 innocent people and piggybacking the author's own self-absorbed genderqueer quackery on the top of it.

Thing is, I don't actually believe that the author genuinely feels more threatened by the idea that hundreds more "real men" might go around shooting all the gays lest their balls touch, rather than he is that more fundamentalist Muslims will continue to go around killing both gay and straight men that aren't heavily indebted to the 7th century. Thing is, only one of those gets you a journalistic paycheque in 2016.

5th_Law_of_Robotics · 2016-06-18T23:29:30+00:00

"I'm murdering these homosexuals because of Islam."

Why did he do it? Probably toxic masculinity.

ThirdEyeSqueegeed · 2016-06-18T10:21:41+00:00

'Toxic Masculinity' is just a newspeak term for 'men'. It's pretty clear when people use the term they're referring to 'men' as being the problem. The article also uses another favourite newspeak term which is 'real man'. Essentially, anything that a man does that they don't agree with is somehow fake, it's not how a 'real' man (aka, a selfless beta) would behave.

The only time you hear the phrase 'real woman', is when they're trying to shame male preferences, like; 'real women ~~are fat~~ have curves'. You never hear stuff like: 'Real women put family before career.' 'A real woman would never cheat on her husband.' etc.

I think he's right about the self-loathing part, but that's just throwing in some truth to help strengthen the narrative. The whole article, like most of these things, is just a way to use a tragedy to support an agenda. If he really cared about why this shit happens, he would stop playing the blame game, and start trying to understand the deep rooted issues, rather than just the surface level bullshit that confirms his own biases and agendas.

butiwasdrunk · 2016-06-18T16:35:15+00:00

The Orlando shooter was a queer whose Muslim father made him hate himself.

Blaming this on anything other than Islam is a disgusting lie.

Atlas_B_Shruggin · 2016-06-18T23:32:33+00:00

Who is the "we" feminists and leftoids are always talking about?

ppdthrowawai · 2016-06-18T12:08:05+00:00

Whenever these people talk about violence, they conveniently leave out the fact that an overwhelming body of evidence finds mothers to most likely be the abuser of a their child, domestic violence presents in equal proportions (or higher rates from women), and lesbian relationships being the most violent.

Is that all caused by toxic masculinity, too? Or maybe, you know, crimes are caused by mentally ill people and opportunists.

Ultramegasaurus · 2016-06-18T09:59:35+00:00

If feminists/SJWs want to change what it means to be a "real men", women need to adjust their preferences.

DerEwigeKatzendame · 2016-06-18T08:07:51+00:00

Everything an author writes propagates their personal beliefs.

I really wish people were ready to acknowledge that, like Christianity(and then some), Islam has a lot of hate for a group of people based on a few passages of scripture that could really be interpreted one way or another. But no, that's racist(because 'Islam' is a race).

When was the last time a group of Christians or Catholics drug a homosexual to the top of a building and threw them off?

The culture clashes are only going to get worse as a group grows in number. I would like to think Christianity is nearing the time of its death throes, and as the boomers die off, the faith will have less power over things they had no business shoving their antiquated ideology into in the first place. It would be a shame if Islam filled the gap Christianity will leave behind.

Get a gun, friends.

Having said all of that, the only female school shooter I can think of is the one that said, 'I don't like Mondays,' or something.

DaphneDK · 2016-06-18T07:30:29+00:00

The writer is an idiot. I know a lot of people long for anything to make some sense out such shootings, any great insight which gives any meaning. But there are no lessons on our socity or culture to be learned from the raving madness of a few individuals.

AutoModerator · 2016-06-18T06:12:01+00:00

Attention!

You can post off topic/jokes/puns as a comment to this Automoderator message.
For "CMV" and "Question for X" Threads: Parent comments that aren't from the target group will be removed, along with their child replies.
If you want to agree with OP instead of challenging their view or if the question is not targeted at you, post it as an answer to this comment.
OP you can choose your own flair, just press Flair under your post!

Thanks for your cooperation and enjoy the discussion!

I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.

funchy · 2016-06-18T18:58:49+00:00

He's a terrible example of a case study. His religion is very homophobic, which may or may not be to blame. He reportedly abused his exwife, and who knows why he did that. Some report he was a self loathing gay man, and he was supposedly seen at the gay nightclub on previous nights. He had many issues.

Having serious issues isn't a one in a million occurrence for men in america. It's that this particular guy took it out on society instead of seeking help (therapy) or simply committing his own suicide.

If anything I blame American culture. Guns are the answer to anyone who feels disempowered. The joke about having a big gun to make up for a tiny penis has a grain of truth: guns are such a symbol of masculinity.

Entropy-7 · 2016-06-19T01:22:01+00:00

"Love"

Men-->Women-->Children-->Puppies

"Beat"

Men-->Women-->Children-->Puppies

It's funny how the first Red Pill truth lines up with the second Blue Pill truth.

Still, I attribute this to the "nut factor" and people arguing about world truths based on the nuttiest examples doesn't get us anywhere.

Having said that, you will see more "men behaving badly" as laws created by feminist harpies and manginas put them in a box.

Hillary_For_Prison · 2016-06-19T03:15:41+00:00

The snippet you quoted shows the article is leftist bullshit. Mateen called 911 prior to starting his attack and pledged allegiance to ISIS so we know he did it for and was inspired by ISIS and by extension, Islam even if he may not have had a direct personal connection to ISIS. We also know he made suspicious statements to his coworkers and was a devout Muslim.

As far as the "Mateen was gay" angle, so what? It's just a facet of himself, some possible self-loathing driven by his Islamic faith that he sought to atone for by murdering a bunch of people. It's little different from Muslims enjoying whores, drugs, alcohol and other indulgences forbidden by their faith. I recall some of the 9/11 hijackers were fond of some if the above mentioned forbidden things.

Mateen didn't murder all those people because he was gay. He did it because he was a Muslim.

Leinadro · 2016-06-20T15:27:11+00:00

Pretty much.

If men continue to be held to old gender roles even while changing roles up for everyone else acts like this will continue.

Mentathiel · 2016-06-20T21:45:02+00:00

Orlando was a case of Islamic extremism, or just fundamental Islam if you will. Left is just awful for declining that. But him likely being gay probably played a huge role in his motivation, but not because our standards of masculinity don't include gay men, but because he was a fundamentalist, religious, Muslim and gay. That's what caused his guilt and self-loathing, not modern Western culture.

And even if he was connected to ISIS, that doesn't mean he didn't have any motivation, I don't see how her disconnecting him with ISIS changes anything. Actually, she's just trying to excuse Islam. But regardless, terrorists are humans too. There's a reason he was connected with ISIS, there was a strong motivation to do such a thing. He was an American, born and raised, and even his Muslim upbringing couldn't cause this by itself, as evident by his parent's statements. So it was a combination of his religion and shame that has been hammered into his head by his father, by his religious texts and whomever else for his urges.

And, I mean, of course, there was surely some sort of mental illness involved.

But anyway, it's ridiculous to blame Western culture.

Whisper · 2016-06-22T20:44:00+00:00

I think something rather blatant about this article is, there is absolutely no mention of the anti-gay executions and horrid punishments that go on in Muslim countries and are promoted by fundamentalist Islam. Not one mention.

That's because it's bigoted and awful to assume he represents any muzzies other than himself.

He just represents all men, and all gun owners.

holyjesusitsahorse · 2016-06-18T15:15:36+00:00

Toxic masculinity is a really misunderstood phenomenon. A lot of men hear the word and get their hackles up: "I'm not toxic, fuck you." and to their credit the term is often misused to simply mean masculinity at large. But I do think that real toxic masculinity is at the root of a lot of our violence problems.

A majority of men grow up with some semblance of a positive male role model in their lives. Someone to teach them that masculinity is an internal identity, something that you're quietly aware of and that drives your relationship with women and with society in general as opposed to a set of rules to follow... a guy who's secure in his masculinity can be gay, or enjoy crochet, or be a nurse and still be manly and attractive af.

But a guy who didn't grow up with a positive role model like that will have to teach himself what it means to be masculine and some of those guys get the wrong idea from our media and culture. Their idea of masculinity is limiting rather than freeing... a constant struggle to avoid being a "faggot" or a "pussy." that's an incredibly stressful way to go through life, especially if you're gay and especially if you've had another influence like extremist religion affecting your perception of reality. What a shitstorm, is it any wonder we have so many guys snapping and turning violent?

Here's a more even-handed article

CovenantoftheSun · 2016-06-18T07:25:41+00:00

He cites all the shootings from the beginning of the country, failing to take into account when there was a statistical prevalence of Islamists.

He is gay, he has experienced discrimination for being gay.

He believes the shooter has no connection to ISIS.

OP skipped the part where the state has a law that allows an employer to fire people simply for being gay.

The author asserts religion is a place men in crisis can turn, suggesting the religious claim is a part of the man's homophobia not the other way around.

He brings in wife beating at the end. He doesn't address it in the article, because he's a bad writer, but 2/3 of domestic violence and murder is committed by men.

The author believes there is no fundamental difference between men and women, after noting all the shooters are men, he decides there is "toxic masculinity" one of the "gender is a social construct" arguments of the left.

Apparently, it is probably illegal to teach about testosterone in the UK. That wouldn't surprise me. Those ninnies.

Like the RP, it has a grain of truth. Yes, there are social constructs of masculinity. No, they are not behind all shooting. Yes, there is such a thing as masculinity without the social constructs or imaginations of what it should or ought to be. Some of these could be judged as "toxic" if people want to judge things and have opinions on them.

This is very poorly written and is sub par writing and unfactual information emotionally driven to reach for a conclusion that defies reality and lines up with the author's beliefs.

I see this is from the Independent. Now, I understand why.

Gavinok: I didn't see anything biased against straight males and I wouldn't particularly judge this article as "misandrist". Its a piss poor defense of radical Islam and he completely fails to understand masculinity, but I'm not seeing the hate or prejudice toward men or straight men.

It just looks like he's working with incorrect information that violence tendencies in men are an artificial social construct when in reality violence is part of the nature of a man's very core being and it takes a mental/emotional construct(s) to curb that violence.

He has it ass backwards, but I don't see him bashing on men.

betterdeadthanbeta · 2016-06-18T09:59:37+00:00

PPD, what are your thoughts on this article?

The lengths some will go to to avoid cognitive dissonance are astounding. This is simply another creative, though ultimately transparent and futile, attempt by those on the left to blame-shift the actions of an Islamic terrorist onto the conservative American right -- nonsensical, given that the two groups that currently are at each other's throats.

In a world where you desperately want to believe that gays and Muslims would all get along swell if it weren't for those dastardly white males, this line of debate might just barely achieve coherence. Meanwhile in the real world, a terrorist is a terrorist. Those (rightists) who want to make it harder for the terrorists to come here are hardly to blame for creating more terrorism...unless the author of this article has decided that victim blaming and "he's not abusive, you're just making him hit you by angering him you dumb bitch" are now valid arguments.

Title	"Until we reassess what it means to be a “real man” then men will continue to beat their wives and murder LBGT people to ease their own self-loathing."
Author	gavinok
Upvotes	4
Comments	148
Date	June 18, 2016 6:12 AM UTC (10 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/4onds5/until_we_reassess_what_it_means_to_be_a_real_man/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/until-we-reassess-what-it-means-to-be-a-real-man.274299 https://theredarchive.com/post/274299

Comments