Would you still consider a guy "nice" if he is sexually bold and assertive?

dakru · 2016-04-25T19:38:10+00:00

Sure, I could still consider him nice.

As far as I'm concerned, the major problem for the stereotypical friend-zoned nice guys isn't the existence of niceness in their personality, it's the prioritization of niceness to the detriment of other (more) important traits: boldness and assertiveness as you say, but also decisiveness, leadership, ability to stand up for himself, etc.

If he takes niceness far enough that he...

Has a hard time saying no to an unreasonable request because he wants to please her,
Has trouble making decisions because he wants to go with her preference,
Or has difficulty being sexually forward because he's worried that she's not interested and she might be bothered

Then his niceness is a problem. If he can be nice and still be bold, assertive, etc., then I really couldn't see the niceness holding him back.

We might be surprised that many men do prioritize niceness over these things, because it's possible to be nice and be these things. But we have to remember that men tend to get a lot of messages about the importance of treating women right, the importance of respecting women (but less often the importance of self-respect or even her respecting him...), etc., so it's really ingrained into them that these things come first. It's worse when a lot of dating advice paints niceness and related traits as the most important factor in a man's desirability with women.

StickItInTheToilet · 2016-04-25T21:47:39+00:00

Would you still consider a guy "nice" if he is sexually bold and assertive?

If he is a nice guy and he's my boyfriend, yes.

If he's not my boyfriend, then why the hell would he be talking about sex to me?

Examples would be up front with sexual comments, saying what he wants from her and is confident about it, and prioritizes sex with her over a relationship.

I personally detest the thing I bolded but love the other two things. Other women might not mind a guy talking about sex all the time. I prefer he does, not talks.

Also, he might be physically assertive, such as if he hugs a girl, he would lift her up and spin her around just for fun.

I also like this, if he's my boyfriend.

ozymandias271 · 2016-04-25T20:55:49+00:00

Yes, assuming that "upfront about sexual comments" doesn't mean commenting on her boobs constantly even when the conversation is about a completely different topic.

Yonderlander · 2016-04-25T21:43:04+00:00

Ah, the old "Nice guys are doormats" strawman, "but women don't like doormats, therefore they like assholes!"

Bullshit, you can be nice and also be assertive and confident. Women are more likely to like this than a doormat. Doesn't mean they like assholes.

The spinning someone around and overt sexual comments, would very much depend on the situation and your relationship with the person.

Entropy-7 · 2016-04-25T22:32:59+00:00

At a bare minimum, you can't be a doormat. On the other hand, you can't be hyper-aggressive, uncaring, or abusive all the time.

From what I have seen there are two equilibrium points, one on each end of the spectrum but set back from the extreme.

The 80/20 rule has nothing to do with this, but bear with me. If a nice guy is a nice guy all the time, a woman will leave him because he is weak. If an asshole is an asshole all the time she will leave him because. . .he's an asshole. If a guy spend half his time being a nice guy and half his time being an asshole a woman will leave him because he seems fickle, unpredictable and pehaps bipolar.

However, if a man is a nice guy 80% of the time and an asshole 20% of the time the woman will stay with him for his nice guy qualities and not leave him because he asserts himself. If an man is an asshole 80% of the time and a nice guy 20% of the time, she is attracted to his assertiveness and stays with him for those nice guy moments which - to her - shows "he really does care" (and I think you can find some pretty good evidence of how this dynamic plays out in abusive relationships: guy treats her like crap, guy beats on her, guy buys flowers and declares his love and treats her like a princess for a day; rinse, repeat).

BiggerDthanYou · 2016-04-25T19:46:37+00:00

Why not?

Sounds like a nice and fun guy. Even nicer than a "nice guy" that hides his intentions and treats her with kid gloves.

That's why I always say that being nice doesn't hinder your dating success. Being nice for me means having a nice smile, showing that you like to spend time with her, asking her about her day and showing interest. So when I hear you guys exclaim that being nice is useless and that being an asshole is better I assume that you are actually talking about asshole behavior and not about harmless and fun flirty stuff.

Where does the idea that not treating them like a brittle little princess that deserves utmost respect is asshole behavior even comes from? The sexual libation happened a long time ago and feminists have been asking for equal treatment for a long time now. It seems like "nice guys" are still stuck in the 50s

sen--sen · 2016-04-25T19:30:31+00:00

i wouldn't consider him cruel or dishonest; he doesn't sound like either. i wouldn't think of him as an especially good guy or good prospect though. someone else may be into that and that's okay; i'm not, though, so to me he'd be unfavorable and not a nice option in that regard.

MissPearl · 2016-04-25T19:35:56+00:00

It strongly depends on his relationship to me.

I have a party trick where I can pick guys up and sometimes spin them around- sub 200 lbs and I can manage a hoist. But I ALWAYS ask, because such behaviour is at best boorish and at worst threatening unless I'm actively at the play wrestle stage of comfort with someone.

As far as being overtly sexual, again context matters. If he starts trying to initiate by way of asking I'm going to thump a mother fucker. If he's a friend and mentions an interest in me and then if he gets a no, stops pressing the point, we're good.

DrunkGirl69 · 2016-04-25T19:14:18+00:00

Sure he sounds like he could be a nice guy.

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aylamayla · 2016-04-25T20:26:56+00:00

Yes, as long as it is very obvious that the female is comfortable with that. My SO and i started out at FWB's and then fell in love so i can relate to this. I was much more sexually innocent than he was but I saw his past experiences as the natural actions of a man. If i knew i wouldn't be called a whore/ get a disease and could have sex with lots of willing people id be all about that. It scared me at first though, I was worried he wasn't a "nice guy" and he quickly proved that to be false. In fact his experiences went from making me very uncomfortable, to completely comfortable. All those weird moments people have during sex, or sexual stuff, he'd had them all. Nothing was off limits FOR ME, and his experience made him very comfortable. When I didn't understand something in sex, he did and the innocence I felt with him was new and exciting and made me feel more feminine than I ever had, which i loved. I was always the bad one in the relationships, I've now learned that I need to be the uptight one always. I have to much anxiety to be with someone who has more "rules" than me.

He was assertive at first because he didn't understand how much of a virgin i was. Once I explained that, he started to slow down. Hes back to his good old self and I try to be the same with him. We find that if we can talk about sex as if were friends, we can get the most out of it for each other. So we stay honest. But i also feel like its a preference thing. I want a man who's more assertive than me because i get tired of constantly having to be assertive outside of the house just to be the person I am. Other women may never be assertive and want to be the bold assertive one when it comes to sex.

4ys LTR we were exclusively dating after the first month of FWB, we couldn't deal with thinking of the other with someone else.

shoup88 · 2016-04-25T20:27:02+00:00

I'm not sure that's enough info to say whether he's nice or not. He sounds fun though, and doesn't sound not-nice, if that makes sense. If I was just looking for a casual thing, he sounds like a good option. I have some friends like this - they're good people.

provanagotannat · 2016-04-25T20:56:54+00:00

I don't think one necessarily have anything with the other.

If this guy does this even though he knows the girl won't like it - No, he is not a nice guy.

Other than that, can't see how it says anything about his character except that he is flirty and forward.

wazzup987 · 2016-04-26T01:09:41+00:00

Yes, but i think the real issues is RPer conflate being nice with being door mat and not having boundaries.

am_thro_way · 2016-04-26T01:31:53+00:00

I don't think any of that directly conflicts with being nice.

DevilsDaughterSorrow · 2016-04-26T02:35:19+00:00

I don't think being bold and assertive is mutually exclusive with being "nice"

oxfordquestionmark · 2016-04-26T09:24:50+00:00

I think you're confusing being a genuinely nice person with being a "nice guy" (crudely explained here). It's hard to tell which version of "nice" people are referring to sometimes, since "nice guy" can be used in an unsarcastic way too.

Someone who's sexually assertive could be a genuinely nice person or an unwelcome "nice guy", depending on whether he has the social skills to spot whether his advances are wanted or not, and whether or not he can accept rejection in a sensible manner.

midnightvulpine · 2016-04-26T10:58:23+00:00

One could still be a fine individual while doing all those things. It's all about how you act while doing those things and outside of doing those things that matter.

It's like how one's tone of voice can change the emotional meaning of words. Take on the wrong tone and the same words can be interpreted all wrong from how they were meant.

statsfodder · 2016-04-26T11:13:53+00:00

Women decide who is a niceguy (tm)... the difference between cheeky and creepy is whether or not she wants to fuck you.

hmlaasanen · 2016-04-26T11:15:17+00:00

No, he is not nice guy. Nice would not do anything that could potentially offend women, and many women would be offended from the sexual comments.

Nice is - more or less - opposite of bold and assertive.

GridReXX · 2016-04-26T21:05:13+00:00

He could still be a nice guy.

The majority of the men I know fall into the "nice, but sexually bold" category.

That also makes them more annoying and sometimes irritating.

But I guess a guy would rather be an annoying bold guy than a not bold guy no one cares about.

xthecharacter · 2016-04-27T02:09:43+00:00

There is nothing about your describtion which invalidates his ability to be nice. But, he may also not be nice. Your description leaves open a wide range of possibilities.

DivinePrince2 · 2016-04-27T18:28:42+00:00

No. I don't like sex so stay away!

vandaalen · 2016-04-25T19:38:28+00:00

I think one of the problems TRP and BP have is the debate about nice guys and assholes, and specifically what defines them.

Actually no. That is a problem exclusive to the blue pill world.

For them an asshole isn't solely defined by his actions, but always in connection with his status, looks, ressources, etc. pp. and oftentimes it changes with what fits the current narrative best. Just think about a common neckbeard acting as a whiteknight and of the many different ways this guy would be desscribed, from hero to sucker to asshole.

It's basically the same as it is with the term "creep". As soon as a man acts out of his percieved status and his expected behaviour, he will get a negative label like that.

The same actions perpetrated by different men are also judged differently. Positively apprehended terms like assertive, confident, strong-willed, etc. pp. very easily turn into negative terms like egoistic, douchy, stubborn, once the subject is of a low percieved status.

It's the Brad Pitt factor we oftentimes cite.

The red pill on the other hand essentially does not even think in those boundaries. Although we of course have discussions about morality, the foundation of all of our tenets is strictly amoral and not judgemental in such ways.

ProbablyBelievesIt · 2016-04-25T19:41:06+00:00

My question is, if a guy is not mean to a girl, but is sexually bold and assertive, is he a nice guy? Examples would be up front with sexual comments, saying what he wants from her and is confident about it, and prioritizes sex with her over a relationship. Also, he might be physically assertive, such as if he hugs a girl, he would lift her up and spin her around just for fun.

I'd say he sounds like some of my friends. They're some pretty awesome people.

Of course, they also know when to turn it down a notch. It's like they're going to hit on complete strangers who aren't into it, until they surrender.

But then again, they're actually sexually confident, rather than faking it.

Title	Would you still consider a guy "nice" if he is sexually bold and assertive?
Author	gavinok
Upvotes	7
Comments	99
Date	April 25, 2016 7:06 PM UTC (10 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/4geuz6/would_you_still_consider_a_guy_nice_if_he_is/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/would-you-still-consider-a-guy-nice-if-he-is.274952 https://theredarchive.com/post/274952

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