Q4Women: What do you expect low SMV men to do when they give up dating or attempting to hook up? Do you feel any pity or do you think they deserve it?

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Weren't there some experiments where people who looked into each other's eyes and said "I love you" enough times actually ended up being attracted to one another?

Sounds interesting, but was the effect long-term? And did they just physically become attracted to each other? The power of wishful thinking and visualisation is backed up by science, but it's something you have to repeat regularly in order for it to be effective.

but let's not pretend love is some magic force binding soulmates or whatever.

Love (and I mean actual love, not having a crush or being infatuated with someone, or just liking them, or just being physically attracted to them) is something that takes getting to know the person. You can't love somebody you don't know. This type of love comes from understanding the person, deeply empathising with them, all the shared memories, etc. You feel good being around them and want to be around them and spend time with them, but it's much more than that. You begin to care for them and they for you, and at some point you realise you would rather be in pain yourself than see them in pain, and seeing them happy makes you happier than you'd have thought. This isn't "magic", but it's not something you can fake. It's something you build slowly over time.

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I disregard non-sexual love. It's irrelevant here.

Besides, later in life non-sexual love doesn't even matter if you don't have the sexual kind. The non-sexual love I had with my parents is gone because one is dead and the other has severe dementia. The non-sexual love I had with my friends is gone, because almost all those friends are now immersed in their own lives, their families, and don't have time for me. And any sort of philosophical love just fails to resonate with me.

If you do have a girlfriend or a ONS that would be the only person in the world who loves you?

One might as well assume so, but that's extremely improbable. The most probable answer would be that I am indeed lovable in a sexual way, and there are and have been people attracted to me, but I am/was doing something wrong.

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Most of the HAES crowd are fat ladies, so it makes sense it'd focus on women. Besides, notice how most men aren't actually attracted to the overweight women? Notice how most women want a guy at 10-15% bf and not a guy with a dadbod? Maybe they're making obesity more "accepted", but they aren't making it more "attractive".

Indeed, it costs nothing to go to a selfie post and say "You look fierce!", "Beautiful!", "You're the embodiment of womanhood!". But they're not getting the hotties. Not a single hot guy is dating them out of pity. And no hunk went and thought, "Dang, they're right, it's society's fault I prefer healthy, hourglass-shaped women. Better break up with my cardio bunny gf and start dating this girl who is thrice more likely to end up with diabetes." They can yell "Fat is fabulous" all they want, but the truth is most people prefer a healthy sized partner.

I mentioned them because you said something about trying to "brainwash everyone with media", but I still don't think it's really working.

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[–]catemlBlue Pill Woman7 points8 points9 points 10 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

The big secret about free birth control is that governments wants to offer it because it makes total economic sense to do so.

Society is generally in agreement that kids should be fed, sheltered and educated - particularly since they have no choice over their lot in life. Also that people shouldn't die in childbirth or as newborns. Kids that are born into situations where they were unplanned are likely to need more support - benefits, social interventions, educational interventions, healthcare - than kids who are born to parents who made the decision that they would be able to provide for and support a child. Plus antenatal, delivery and postnatal care are expensive. Compared to all that, condoms/birth control pills/IUDs procured and distributed by the government are really fucking cheap. The government are aware that people - particularly couples on hard times, but single people as well - are going to keep having sex.

Basically any actual economist who is ignoring the handwringing 'moral issues' ("I have to pay for other people to have sex!?!?" "Are we encouraging the breakdown of the nuclear family/whorey women!?!" "Religion says no!?!?") will tell you that if you want to pay less taxes, you should vote for a party who say they will throw out condoms and pills wantonly from under big signs saying "GET YOUR FREE BIRTH CONTROL HERE, RIGHT NOW, PLEASE". They might dress it up as "We care about women's rights and issues and reproductive health" because that sounds nicer but the real reason is "$£€$£€".

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If you are an able-bodied 20-some person living in North America, and you decide to panhandle and wash people's windshields at stoplights for a quarter to buy drugs, booze and cigarettes, and you sleep in shelters, you are trash.

Yeah because that's obviously the way they wish to live. I can't imagine something better than needing to ask people for money so I can buy drugs to cope with my shitty life for one more day. I bet they dreamed of they day when they can finally suck dicks for money and have to sleep under some bridge.

Try to think about what put them in that situation. They may be able-bodied, but that doesn't mean that they are mentally healthy.

Mostly they have some issues (depression, schizophrenia, addiction, etc.) that makes it impossible for them to lead a normal life.

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I'm almost 30, and the perpetually single people in my peer group by this point -- men AND women --- usually have overreaching expectations, along with a couple of other social/emotional problems. The pattern was not as reliable 8 years ago, when there wasn't a big enough sample size for quantifiable failure to emerge.

These unreasonable expectations tend to manifest differently in the genders, but the basic concept is the same.

With men it's about appearance, but it's not a matter of a fat, bald guy chasing after supermodels. Its guys who look would be in the "4-5" range in aggregate allocating a disproportionate amount of their emotional energy perusing girls who they consider average. Thing is, these average girls are usually in the 20th percentile of weight with objectively pretty faces, who simply aren't glamorized enough to intimidate. Then they're shocked when this "girl next girl" has a "douche" boyfriend, a guys who's actually of similar attractiveness. Basically, a "5" expecting a "TV 5" who's a real life "7.5".

The shame of it is these guys will attract the interest of appropriate SMV women, and may even go on dates with them. But they fail to make these women feel desirable. They're cavalier, phoning it in, putting them on the back burner. Men who are better versed in courtship will understand that women, even average ones, will vet and need to feel desired in order to feel sexual. Socially inept men will resent having to pursue women in their league, but will turn into slobbering idiots around women they have a .0001% chance with.

And yes, these attractive women will message you back on OKCupid sometimes, and they will let you buy them dinner. But if you allocate 90% of your dating time toward women you have a narrow chance with, you'll face a disproportionate amount of rejection on top of the hefty rejection men are expected to bear by default.

I don't know these low SMV men on the internet personally. I see the real life patterns, observe the failures. If these low SMV men are close enough to me, I will gently advise them if asked. But the fact is, these guys don't want to lower their physical standards, because they are empathy deficient this makes it harder see people holistically and cultivate attraction based on other qualities. Sometimes it's easier just to tell them to "be more confident" because it's become the socially acceptable lip-service for this exact problem.

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Men are naturally inclined to overestimate their attractiveness

I could criticize that "study" to hell and back, but again, I don't think it's a bet we could ever settle, so let's not go there.

Media representations of men tend to be closer to real life than representations of women.

No, they are just often said to be. It's how we ended up with hollywood actors being the template for average male looks, with regular joes being labeled as ugly and actual uglies for the most part just ignored.

More than once, much more than once in fact, when debating today's extremely high standards for male attractiveness, I've had people cite actors like Chris Hansen or Chris Pratt as examples of "average looks easy for any man to achieve". On the other hand, I don't think anybody's calling Megan Fox a girl next door type.

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I've seen too many men use women for sex just for the momentary release, and to increase their social standing.

That's just moving the goalposts. Nobody wants me for sex either. Nobody wants me at all. Nobody ever feels or expresses any desire for me. On the other hand, those women are desired, but that desire is not good enough, so they dismiss it outright. Despite the simple fact that those men can only "use them for sex" if those women choose to have sex with those men. They go and "get used" by a lot of attractive men, but after all that, they are no less open to attempt a genuine relationship with a guy who is less attractive.

Tell me, why do you feel the need to dismiss some desire as "not really desire" instead of owning up to the fact that it's not about the presence or lack of desire, but rather about the quality of the men?

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[–]CarkudoThe original opinionated omega0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Because I've learned how to collaborate with other people on turning no attraction into "We're kind of proud of the horrible mess our bodies are making together."?

I've known plenty of people who approach attraction with that attitude. It's still just an attitude, it's meaningless without the presence of attraction itself. These people do not actually consider their bodies horrible, because they aren't. They may not be attractive by mainstream standards, but attractiveness goes beyond mainstream standards. It takes a lot of factors coming together to render someone completely unattractive, but here I am. People like me are a minority, but there we are. Desire is desire. The spin you put on it comes after.

the people I was attracting

See? You were attracting people. I attract no one. You had something to work with, just as those women who keep moving the goalposts have something to work on.

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Well...her comment was vague enough that we don't know what actually happened.

A simple human connection, attention and affection are not enough.

It sounded to me like she was saying that there wasn't even that.

But as I said, we don't really know what happened. Was it just one guy, or many? Was he truly verbally cruel, or was he simply awkward at showing interest, or was he simply uninterested (he had no obligation to be interested-just like we women have no obligation to be interested in a particular guy-it goes both ways! I think sometimes people (of both genders) act like unattractive people (of the other gender) have an obligation to be attracted to them.) On the other hand, we shouldn't assume that she was taking this last attitude-maybe she ran into some guy who genuinely was treating her as if she was below him-you and I simply don't know. But if it really was one guy-or even if it was several-we can't make over-generalizations based just on him (or even on them).

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If you are really so hell bent on the answer, women choose who they want to sleep with. If you approach a woman, and she turns you down, that is her choice. So yeah, women can choose to not sleep with you. Is that what you wanted to hear?

I didn't want to hear anything. I know how it works. I just don't want to see people saying it's men's choice they don't get laid. Because it's not.

No one likes someone who only complains about their life and doesn't work to change anything.

Obviously. And that's why I gave an example. A man who keeps trying and does work on himself but can't get laid. That's not his choice.

And it's not about one particular woman rejecting him. It's about not getting laid (not with just this one girl). Considering there're 7 billion people out there and some get laid - you would think you can work on it and get sex too, right? Well, maybe a guy in example just didn't put enough work just yet. Anyways, doesn't change the fact that it's hard for low SMV men and the question is: do you even consider them people? What are they supposed to do if they want what others have? Or are they supposed to only be someone's plan B after she spends her sexual prime on other men?

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I have a good fashion sense, I also have a set career and a few material possessions.

That seems like a too shallow and materialistic view on looks.

A nice smile is worth a lot more than an expensive watch. And a interesting and charming personality is hotter than having an amazing job.

However, I am socially awkward and have very low improvisational skills for flirting and generally unscripted banter.

That's why it is important to get more experience. I'm not good at improvising, but I've been in similar situations and prepared some lines to drop.

girls I achieve in dating usually see through my act a few weeks into courtship and call it quits

That's why "just be yourself" is important. Being genuine and not pretending to be someone else makes you more attractive. They don't drop you because your true personality is unattractive, but because you attract them under some false pretenses.

They call it quits, because you have been lying, manipulating and because they realize that they weren't attracted to you, but to the person you pretended to be.

guys who aren't necessarily physically and materially unattractive, but have stunted social skills

I think the biggest problem is that you go for social, outgoing, extrovert girls. Start looking for girls with a compatible personality. Shy, nerdy, introvert,... girls.

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Even if that were true (it isn't, you are just focusing on the guys who overreach), there's still the fact that men's and women's leagues are way out of balance. Women with similar physical traits and flaws to mine can afford to date men who are way better looking than me, while for all intents and purposes it seems that I am completely disqualified from dating anyone at all. It's less like new grads applying for upper management and more like an oversaturated job market where entry level positions are still only willing to take someone with years of experience. The analogy breaks down, however, in that in the job market, you can circumvent the limitations by using internships, volunteering, networking connections and straight-out nepotism, while in the sexual market, there are no such backdoors. A former therapist of mine once suggested that I put out personal ads in newspapers offering financial support to down-on-their-luck women... but even something as grotesque as that would not work.

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regarding what low SMV men should do, here's the usual stock advice.

1) Get an honest view of your SMV/RMV.

2) Determine what you need to do to improve, and about how long that will take, such that you will be able to attract women you are attracted to.

3) Determine whether doing that work is worth the effort, and worth the risk that, even if you improve your SMV, you will still be unable to attract women you're attracted to.

4) If you determine that doing the work is worth the effort and you're willing to undertake the risk, do the work. If you determine that the effort and risk are NOT worth it, then stop. Stay where you are, accept that where you are is where you are, and find other hobbies/pursuits/avenues in life that do not involve dating/mating. Acceptance is key here. Oddly enough, once you accept this, your focus on your pursuits will likely make you more attractive to women.

5) While you are doing work and improving, remain open to the potential for sex and/or relationships with women. Improve your ability to read social cues. Practice socializing with men and women.

6) After you have "finished" improving ("finished" in quotes because you should never be done improving; you are never a finished product), if you are attracting women you are attracted to, congratulations. It worked.

If you are still not attracting women you're attracted to, one of two things happened: (a) Your standards are too high. Lower them. (b) Sorry. Your efforts failed. You took the risk, and it did not pay off. You need to accept that it didn't work. You can improve further if that's possible. If that is not possible, then redirect efforts away from dating/mating, and into hobbies/pursuits/avenues to enhance your life. Again: Acceptance is key here. And oddly enough, this will likely make you more attractive.

But at all times, always be on the lookout for the desperate lane changer seeking a beta bux. The low SMV man is prey for these women. Never, ever be a beta bux for any woman. Do not marry, since after being low SMV and then improving, it's likely you're a target for a woman seeking to convert you into a beta provider.

[–][deleted] 1 points1 points1 points 10 years ago | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

You have several options here.

1) Get out of the NPOs and charity groups. These tend to be social clubs populated by SJWs and social liberals, who are self important and not all that deep, to be honest.

2) Get into different groups that do not involve you doing volunteer work but rather showcase a talent you have.

3) Gain male friends. Spend time interacting with men and gaining status among men.

Quick witted comebacks aren't the answer; outwitting alphas isn't either. You don't have to think of quick witted things. You just have to be in a place where you do what you want to do and can meet people you want to meet.

4) consider relocating and starting over in another locale where you can get a fresh start and where you are not a "known quantity". I grew up in a little town in the middle of nowhere. I was determined to move away, because I knew instinctively that people there would always see me as I used to be as a kid; not the man I am now. When I visit my parents, people still talk about shit that happened or that I said or did 35 years ago.

If after all this it still isn't working, then accept that at the place you are, you aren't going to be dating/mating, and leave it behind. Do what you can to come to terms with it, be that occupying yourself with activity, therapy, or whatever. Good luck.

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SMV 3 guy should go for between SMV 1 and SMV 5 girl. If he's aiming higher and failing then he doesn't deserve pity.

I'd say the same thing about a woman with an SMV of 3. And I don't know about pity, but if a guy doesn't find a particular woman attractive, he doesn't. Would you suggest a woman should somehow force herself to "be attracted" to a guy she finds ugly?

I'd say the group of men and woman that are just "too ugly" to find a mate is small, but I'd also venture they exist and their experience is far different than most of us. Probably as different as the PoV of a "natural alpha" is to me.

And for what its worth, it isn't just "their" problem. It is also the problem of their female peers who these men overlook. And, ultimately, societies problems if/when one of these men go nuts and violent. No easy solutions here.

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you postulate that responsibility is that magic pill

Huh? How would responsibility be a "magic pill?" And how on earth did you come to the conclusion that was what I was postulating?

The responsibility to change his situation or line of thought lies with him. What he changes and how might determine the success or not but obviously if he remains stagnant then so would his situation.

Basically, get off your butt and start changing you life and stop running around blaming others for your problems and saying "woe is me."

when someone shows up who does indeed take responsibility and who still finds it impossible to even get a second date because of his unattractiveness, you just dismiss that?

So an example of hypothetical failure. So... what caused the failure? Not the fact that he changed something but possibly changed the wrong thing or changed a thing in the wrong way. That takes an analysis of the individual's situation. Has nothing to do with acctually taking action.

What's the point of making your statement on a debate subreddit if you're not willing to debate it?

I will debate anything (or attempt to). I disagreed with your interpretation of my first post, pretty sure that's a debate.

[–]CarkudoThe original opinionated omega0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

How would responsibility be a "magic pill?"

You presume that taking responsibility for solving a problem automatically means that one will be able to solve that problem. Sounds like magic to me.

Basically, get off your butt and start changing you life and stop running around blaming others for your problems and saying "woe is me."

There are no ways in which I could change my life to make it possible for me to have a relationship. There is nothing I can do to make myself attractive. It is nobody's fault except my own and I have never blamed anyone for it. And I am not the only such man by far.

"They should take responsibility" is a copout. Plenty of men are loved despite never taking responsibility for anything they do in their lives. And of those that are undesirable, plenty do take responsibility, only to find that it does not change anything at all.

What they need is not to take responsibility. What they need is for society to recognize that some men are in such shitty situation, and to help them.

So an example of hypothetical failure.

Actually, I was talking about myself. What caused the failure was that I was simply unable to change myself to become sufficiently attractive to pass the lowest threshold. My face is too ugly - that can't be changed. My body is ruined and also cannot be improved. I built up my social skills and tried to capitalize on what talents I have, but years of doing that still came up with nothing.

I will debate anything (or attempt to). I disagreed with your interpretation of my first post, pretty sure that's a debate.

I gave you my own experience of taking responsibility for my situation and finding that it's actually outside of my power to change it. You offhandedly dismissed my account, because it doesn't fit into you narrative. Yes, you are too cowardly to debate. You know your juvenile moralistic view does not stand up to any sort of criticism, and you can't handle being wrong.

[–]RareBlur0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

I think your pessimistic attitude is making you unattractive.

If somwone has already given up then there's not much anyone could say to change their minds. Yes, life is harder for some than others. But we learn to adapt and work with what we have.

You still have to convince me that doing nothing is better than doing something. At least if you take some responsibility there's a chance you will succeed. If you do nothing then there is 0 chance.

I dismiss you narrative because I don't know you. That's getting to personal and I can't offer any direct advice. You keep saying that things are outside you position to change. I'm not convinced of that. Even if you are in a place where you can't conto the situation you certinlly can change your attitude

l I have no problem being wrong if you can convince me of it.

[–]CarkudoThe original opinionated omega0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

I think your pessimistic attitude is making you unattractive.

I didn't start out pessimistic. I used to be confident and much more proactive in approaching people. The pessimism is a result of constant failure and the unencouraging results of analyzing the reasons for it and possible solutions.

If somwone has already given up then there's not much anyone could say to change their minds.

Unless you are convinced that I am wrong in my assessment of my chances, why would you want to change my mind?

But we learn to adapt and work with what we have.

Key point being "what we have" - you can work with what you have, when you have something to work on. When you have nothing, the only option is to give up and move on to things that are more available. Except with sex and dating, you can't ever move on quite completely.

You still have to convince me that doing nothing is better than doing something.

Simple risk assessment. There is good reason to believe that nothing I could ever do would ever make me attractive to another person. As such, there's good reason to believe that a relationship based on mutual attraction is something that I can never have, because it's impossible for a person to be attracted to me. Since there is reason to believe that success is unattainable, and since each failure causes me some amount of anguish, it's better for me to do nothing with regards to finding a girlfriend. Either option's most likely outcome is me committing suicide as a lonely middle age man, but the "doing something" option minimizes my enjoyment of life prior to that.

That's getting to personal and I can't offer any direct advice.

I'm not asking for advice, I'm criticizing your position. Believe me, you can't offer me any advice that I haven't already heard.

I'm not convinced of that.

And that's the dismissal. You are presented, in good faith, with evidence that you are mistaken, and push it away without providing any actual reasons why it's invalid. You're just "not convinced".

Even if you are in a place where you can't conto the situation you certinlly can change your attitude

From what to what? And what does that have to do with low SMV men needing to take responsibility?

I have no problem being wrong

If you didn't, you wouldn't be so desperate run away from the account I'm presenting. You would face it and address it, and yet all you do is keep running away from, asking for excuses to dismiss it.

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