Women are great at reading men. They are able to instinctively pick up how invested a man is or where they stand with him. They seem to know how much to give and when to pull back. This is because for many, many years, emotionally manipulating men was absolutely essential for their survival. They didn't possess the brute strength of the male to protect and provide for themselves, their survival depended on their ability to sway and manipulate men to fulfill their needs and wants. The better they were at understanding men, the better their chances of surviving.
Men on the other hand, tend to be terrible at reading women. They didn't need to manipulate or sway women for their survival, they could generally survive on their own simply by co operating with the other men. This means that men tend to be far worse at knowing where they stand with their women and they often don't know how much to give. More often than not they're completely blindsided when their encounters with women blow up and fall apart. For women it's intrinsic, for men, it's a skill that needs to be learned and harnessed.
The first step most take as an early Red Piller is defense mechanisms. Learning to recognize potentially harmful behaviors and react. Like if she want's to go with her slutty friends to Europe for the summer you inform her that that will be the end of your relationship. This is a useful tool to learn, it helps you avoid situations where you later find out she was blowing Chad and his buddies in his lowered Nissan Skyline, but it's not where it ends. Defense mechanisms are simply treating the symptoms, they are not designed to treat the disease.
If your woman is talking to you about going to Europe with her friends, the problem is not going to Europe, the problem is that she even wants to go to Europe. It's indicative that "girls party time" is more important to her than the sanctity of her relationship. Women who are smitten with their men don't want to go to on trips with their hoe friends, they don't want to go on coffee dates with "hes just a guy friend", they avoid those situations all on their own because they don't want to risk losing the what they've got.
You telling her that you'll end it if she goes doesn't mean that she didn't want to go and a similar problem will manifest in a different way soon after. This is because you're not in control, you're doing damage control. You're not dictating the frame, you're reacting to it. Had you been more in tune with her behavior and better at reading it, you would have noticed the signs long before. You would have reacted and she would never get to the point where she's coming to you with ridiculous requests.
How do you know? What do you look for?
First you need to establish a baseline dynamic between you two. It can be whatever you want, but male-female relationships function best with masculine dominance and feminine submission. I like mine where she's sweet and submissive. She messages first, she does cute little things for me, cleans my place, fucks me like an animal and doesn't go out to places she knows could be compromising. She cock blocks other dudes herself and always respects me, no bitchiness allowed. That is my baseline, it's how things always are. From there on out it's simply maintaining that baseline with a healthy amount of subtle dread, like keeping up my appearance, my career, social life and generally not falling into beta bitch habits(If you are unaware of how to establish a dominant baseline, you should only be focusing on gaining experience).
The signs that tell me that things are veering off path is when there are deviations from that baseline. A women's behavior is a projection of her internal state, if her behavior is changing, it's early signs that her feelings are changing. If you notice she's not messaging as much, or she's being less sweet, she's being more bold and bitchy or the biggest most obvious tell-tale sign with women, when shes not as keen sexually, then it's an alarm bell and you need to take back control. It's a clear sign that she is getting too comfortable and comfort kills attraction.
The simple fix is to change gears from subtle dread to direct dread. Withdraw attention from her, communicate less, be less affectionate, talk to other girls directly. Due to women's heightened ability to read male behavior she'll quickly pick up that her behavior is yielding a negative response from you, pushing you away and reducing your interest. This will spark tension and competition anxiety as the prospect of losing you dawns on her. She'll then adjust her behavior back to what works and you'll be back at your baseline. Continue this for as long as you want the relationship to last. Notice the changes, react, back to baseline.
This allows you to consistently dictate the frame of the relationship. It allows you to establish the baseline you desire and maintain it. You're not allowing small symptoms to fester into monumental shit test like hoe trips with the girls or coffee dates with Barry. You're being proactive and nipping it in the bud to give your self the interactions with women you desire. When guys go on askTRP saying their women is acting up what they're really saying is they've missed all the signs that there's was a problem and its finally manifested into a shitfest.
This is a great post for those of us who may potentially dip our toe in the water with an ltr. Fluid short to the point and cohesive well done.
Agreed. I generally see two forms of contradictory advice on this forum: Verbalizing limits on behavior, or DGAF soft/hard next.
Limiting behavior seems insecure and reactionary, while hard next is only practical for plates.
This is a more nuanced strategy: Establish a baseline, observe behavior early on, and apply dread before issues come up.
Dread should be a natural state that you don't have to exercise. Always be improving. Always be looking at other women and talking to them. Always be upping your game. Always lift.
The rest is just training. But, you have to know what you want. If you are wishy washy and lacking confidence you'll get stuck in a limbo where you aren't getting what you want and she resists you.
Always remember, she wants to follow. She wants you to lead. You have to know where you want to go and what you want to do. This can be anything from choosing where to eat, to sex position/kink/frequency, to where you are going to live.
You can delegate decisions to her to an extent for minor things, but you have to actively make that delegation by instructing her to "make a decision on x and then check with me to confirm, I'm busy." This lets her know that the responsibility you've given her is trivial and of little importance to you, but that regardless of how trivial it is she still must defer to your approval on the matter ultimately. This is a habit you need to set with her early on. She should always be seeking your approval for everything she does.
Good advice. It should be ingrained that if you stop knowing what you want, you'll be fucked if you just 'go with the flow'.
Always have a plan. Stick to it.
Fuck, even I'm having a down period in other parts of life, if I'm seeing a girl, I know exactly what I want to do.
It's a concept a lot of men never grasp and I still struggle with.
Women are extremely passive. If you rely on her to run the relationship, nothing interesting will ever happen, except for bad things like her cheating. And the decision to do so won't even be hers, she was just going with the flow when some guy hit on her.
The passivity drives me nuts sometimes. Ill give her the task to plan a fun night and expect her to come up with something creative for us to do. Every single time she comes up with a plan I end up making a better one within 10 minutes.
Hahaha, you give her the task of a plan? You're brave.
For myself it was just one of those very early RedPill concepts that I saw proven in my past. Women hate indecisiveness.
I also hate the whole beating around the bush, letting her make decisions, being agreeable and hoping at some point it leads to sex. Ugh, like yeah that always worked out well.
It is so much easier to have in my head 'we are going here, here, and then doing that, then going there, and then I'm going to fuck you'. I can't remember when I last asked a girl what she wants to do. What she wants, is for me to not ask her that.
DGAF is about being not needy.
Being assertive is about leading, not being leaded.
Those are not contradictory.
You say let's go doing XXX as a matter of fact, and not as a petition. That's DGAF and leading.
Asking her to do XXX is needy and following (she decides, and you need her).
"Lets do XXX" and being annoyed at her negative is being needy and "trying".
"What can we do". Is being a follower and also needy.
I was referring more to a scenario where she wants to do something you don't approve of e.g. ladies night out. Upon hearing this situation TRP will argue what's a more alpha play, telling her she better not go, or DGAF mentality because you're so high value she would never do anything.
At the end of the day I think it comes down to individual situations but ideally you never reach that point, which is what this post is describing.
If you speak with resentment, or anger, at what she wants to do, that's needy.
But you make the rules. As Donovan Sharpe says, rules are choices you give to her. If she goes, DGAF, but she is downgraded.
You do not force her with ultimatums. You just give to her, choices. Choice A produces X. Choice B produces Y.
The effects of the choices are for your own interest. You do not need to explain why or justify the rules. It is just what benefits you.
How is that no an ultimatum then? You're essentially telling her if she does X she will be downgraded.
Nexting is very applicable to LTR's. It's called dumping and hitting up your side/backup pieces. I highly recommend it. The moment you feel it isn't applicable is the moment you lost your freedom.
Btw. The best LTR is the one you dumped. They have to experience it to truly know you have other options and high standards.
^ This should be the top comment.
Had a LTR a long time ago. She started acting up because I went out without her. I came to her place after a long night and she confronted me. Ditched her immediately and went home. She ran after me crying and begging. Smart girl realized pretty quick where her place was. Nonetheless I soft nexted her.
About 6 months of fun later I messaged her. Since then she's like a little pet, following me around and I can literally do whatever I want. 2 years ago I felt that I started to loose control but that's when I found TRP, explaining why PUA stuff only ruined my game.
Now I'm 7 years in relationship and a free man. Even my dad started asking about relationship advice, but hating everything I say. Because looking back it all comes down to steel frame and omnipresent dread.
How is PUA stuff ruining your game?
The pick up community puts pussy on a pedestal. It created neediness, why it seems that you still didn't 'get it' and you again turn to the pu community, which created even more neediness. There are only few individuals who breach this vicious circle.
Well done but is this really what you want from the person you spend so much time with.
Someone should write an article in detail about Dread Game. Ofcourse, we all know the ABC's of Dread game but it would be nice to have an insight of someone who's spinning plates like Genghis Khan.
In one myself. I have the same baseline described above. Honestly it's very simple.
Just work on you and be funny. Everyone loves an attractive funny guy who looks clean. Make other women want you but then choose your ltr in front of them so they hate her. Been doing it for months, love it.
Just in time, thank you so much. Will try this asap. Withdrawing a lot will cause her to send comfort tests which usually kills masculinity. How can I deal with comfort tests?
If dread is required it means she's left of center, direct dread will bring her back to center. It's only If you over dread her that she'll land right of center, in such instances you'll just need to up comfort to get back to center.
This is a fucking comment worth reading.
Maintain frame. The point of her manipulation is to make an emotional appeal. If you keep your emotions in check, you can deny all attempts. The worst thing for her is when nothing she does yields anything from you.
And why would you want to hurt somebody so much?
The same reason you'd engage in self-defense. Are you gonna complain about hurting someone who's attacking you?
I usually respond to comfort tests with telling her to take off her panties and hand them to me. If she refuses then I tell her she's going to be punished later. And if she resists that I ignore her for the rest of the day/night.
This is just an example, but making her submit to you in 1 way or another is the route I would go.
As I said in another comment, dread should be a natural state. If you aren't lifting right now, that's a problem you need to fix. If you aren't chatting with other attractive women, that's a problem you need to fix. If you aren't creating some mystery about yourself that she can't solve, that's a problem you need to fix. The mystery part gets harder in LTR, but it's easy enough if you just keep your mouth shut and every once in a while let a hint of something slip out that she had no knowledge of. Something that makes her go "wtf? since when was an expert on this? or into that?" - a juxtapose is the best.
No. It causes shit tests. Se doubts your value. She doens't needs your approval, but is testing if you are worthy of it.
Comfort tests are consequence of you do not giving her a way to gain your approval. She approves you, but doesn't knows if you approve her.
To avoid shit test, you have to make her desire, but to avoid comfort tests, you have to ask her to please you, and give your approval because she pleases you.
If you are not active demanding things and rewarding good behavior, but she still has genuine desire, she throws a comfort test.
If you comfort her, not as a reward for pleasing you, it is the same as a failed shit test.
Please consider this short definition:
"The 2 types of shit tests are (1) VALUE: when she's gauging YOUR value among OTHERS, and (2) COMFORT: she needs to know HER value to YOU, and these are directly related to animal instincts of Survival & Replication, respectively."
Do am I correct here?
You could really help yourself by not taking any of this bullshit into consideration. These dudes just want you to be as miserable as them.
What would you then instead of what they do?
Well for one I wouldn't expect every girl who is nice to me to have sex with me. OP made a comparison to training a woman like a dog. Do I really need to delve deeper into why that is not the correct way to approach a human woman. Look inward instead of what's wrong with them and how can I try to manipulate them.
Well there are some extreme comments but I am with the idea of trusting yourself could fix some problems. If you believe you are right, why would you submit? But thinking about dominance all the time won't help in my opinion.
Girlfriend wants to go vacation to her parents house for less than an entire week. Ok
Gf wants to go with friends to EU fuck off.
Better being alone than being the stupid of the relationship.
thank you for once someones got an LTR post that isn't just some "she's not yours its all out of your control enjoy your turn" defeatist BS.
there is A LOT of it which is in your control and many signs start to show when shits going south, it's not like "whoops, she slipped and fell on chads dick, guess my turns over hurr durr".
I think you're missing the point of posts like that, they're just describing the reality of the situation...
You're the one perceiving that in a negative and defeatist way.
If you switch it to "I'm not her's, it's just her turn" then the perspective becomes a positive and optimistic one immediately.
The way we frame things in our own mind determines whether its a positive or negative even for the same objective reality.
That's a negative way of looking at it and reflects your own mindset.
For me when shits going south, it's a matter of "We had some good times but she's no longer worthy, Next"
That not defeatist. Is for you to not fall in the trap of the sunken cost fallacy.
I agree. She is yours. Screw Europe. Why even put up with a question like that? A man that knows the real Red Pill, his woman would never dare ask him some stupid question like this. To me, I appreciate the post, but this topic should never need to be dissected.
How dare her even think this is okay? It's not okay. The though of it is not okay. Why? -- because you are a man deserving of respect.
Here's an upvote from me. You put exactly what I found out for myself a few weeks back into words and explained it perfectly. This was what I needed to hear, thank you
And I've found that the treating the symptoms vs treating the disease analogy works for a lot of stuff other than this. For example, on days when I'm just not motivated enough to hit the gym, watching a motivational video might help a bit but the fact is that if I so much as had the thought that I should weasel out, it means that I've been veering off path in general. It's kinda tough to get back on track though, and tbh letting myself fuck off and not do hard shit is becoming the general trend for me. How do I correct this ?
I know what you mean. Do an instagram search of David Goggins, that guy is straight up inspirational. He basically talks about exactly what you just described, and that the nagging little voice to be lazy in the back of your head will always be there. He believes that your mind is similar to a muscle and that you can "exercise" it by refusing to take the easy way out, and after a long time it will get easier and easier.
Hope that helped or answered your question somewhat.
If my LTR wanted to go to Europe for a Summer or asked about an open relationship, I would not offer an ultimatum. Ultimatums do not work. Either of these two things means one and only one thing - my turn is nearly over. Maybe I could have been more RP, maybe I could have seen earlier signs, maybe I can learn something from this. But it is over.
It's less about maintaining your turn and more about maintaining control. Personally, I like to control anything that I invest my time and energy into.
The fact that it will almost certainly prolong my turn is simply a by product.
Good comment, a vanguard recently pointed out that nuance in LTRs, it’s not just your turn, she’s actually yours and therefore indifference game isn’t enough, you got to have control game as well.
Maintain control and it will, as a secondary, prolong your turn but as you said think and act for the former.
u/Whisper has touched on it a couple of times. Indifference game is effective for plates and fwb.
The moment you’re in LTR territory you’re invested, both in time and energy. As with any investment you make, you want to be as in control of it as possible. You have to switch out indifference game for control game.
Yes I believe it was him.
Quite refreshing to see something on control game, haven’t seen much apart from the bare minimum you need to know about ltr and HSPs guide to training your bitches.
Who's HSP? Could you link to the guides?
Always felt control game was overreaching and over investing. It's not congruent with the stoic point of view. It makes sense but I've always thought, and read on here, that controlling others is a beta move. I guess it goes back to the whole father/daughter relationship - weird as it may be?
In the beginning it took a bit of adjusting, but now, control game comes naturally, it's my default state. I really don't ever feel like I'm investing a thing.
Depends on context.
If it's a plate, couldn't care less, my entire dynamic with her is geared around short term strategy. Her influence and even time spent with me is minimal, basically just a fuck toy.
If it's progressed to the point of an LTR, then by default that means I'm spending a decent amount of time with her and she's fairly integrated into my life. Whether I care to acknowledge it or not, I'm somewhat invested.
If she's gonna be a part of my life, then I'm gonna want to coach her to be able to adequately satisfy me, in the way that I want to be satisfied.
Same way if I had a business, and a team working for me, I'm invested. I can be stoic and let the chips fall as they may, but odds are that I'll end up going bust. I need to in some way control and steer the business in a direction that is favorable for me to achieve the outcomes I desire.
I don’t think control of something/someone is the response here, the only person you have control over is YOU, so in this case if she wants to go to Europe with friends, then coincidentally you will invite that friend she doesn’t like to a party you will throw while she’s gone. If she wants to go to drink coffee with an ex, then you were asked to teach that HB8 of a coworker to rock climbing, implement dread instead of ultimatums.
The control I’m talking about is subtle, pre emptive, she isn’t even aware it’s happening.
You never reach the point of tit for tat with her because you reacted the moment you first noticed behavior changes, long before she started acting up.
Yes, that’s why TRP always endorses to work on yourself and get better with passion since that on itself is dread working for you on the relationship
Don’t think of it as tyrannical/absolute control, it’s more like influence.
Just ask her to go with her and see her response: yay come with me, that's good. Nay, I go with my friends, that's not good.
Ultimatums aren't there for something. It's quite simple.
If she wanted you there she would have invited you with.
Exactly. It's the proof you're the Alfa she doesn't want to lose.
Very high quality post sir
Ultimatums don’t work, those are your beta bitch side coming up. Here have a read on this:
Iron Rule # 4 - Rollo Tomassi
Don’t mateguard, have abundance
It’s not so much of an ultimatum, it’s more informing her of an undeniable fact.
“Oh you want to go to Europe? Ok sure, enjoy it, but unfortunately I can’t continue to be part of this relationship then”
You’re not trying to convince her out of it, or bargain with her, you’re simply, calmly informing her of your course of action.
She’s welcome to do with that information as she pleases. In my experience, the moment she sees zero worry and my casual willingness to walk away, she backtracks real quickly all on her own.
Ideally, and this is the crux of the post is that you avoid this situation altogether by reading her behavior and being pre emotive.
I don't think you are being honest with yourself. What is wrong with going to europe? You are coming off as insecure. You are assuming she's going there to cheat on you. Why? Are you a mind reader? No, of course not. It is just your insecurity.
Stop worrying about europe. Your GF will cheat or not cheat right under your nose, if that's how she is. Your job is to have abundance, so when/if it happens you won't care so much. Outcome independence.
See my reply above. I let women know what I'm looking for -- a best friend who sleeps with me. Then when they give me drama I can ask them if they think a best friend acts that way. They know what to do if they want more from you. They know how to grade themselves. There's no more "where do we stand" crap because I didn't make it a mystery, or I didn't pretend to be aloof.
That is an ultimatum, or sort of like “if you do it, this will happen” which takes away all of your power, as the iron rule says: “the one that needs the other the least, is the one with power” it sends the communication: “I don’t know what else to do because you have more power, so I will overtly communicate the termination of this, please respond accordingly because I am afraid of you leaving”. If instead of this you apply dread with that one girl that has the hots for you, she will regret having the thought about going out without you, she will mateguard herself.
Had it been, “if you go to Europe then I’m breaking up with you”, then the emphasis is on your desire to keep her, but the fact that it’s “Ok have fun, but I’m out” the emphasis is on your willingness to leave, it comes across as easy for you.
For the record I’m in agreement that the more ideal response would be straight, direct dread.
The ability to walk away from a women or "dump" her is the ultimate DHV. What you are showing by saying that if she does go away you will leave, and you follow through, is that you infact have all the power. It's all in how you frame it and hold that frame.
Correct, so how do we show covertly that we can do that? No words, just actions? Dread. DHV with other girls is the highest DHV. Saying it overtly dictates 2 things:
1- You have the need to show your power. This sends the signal: “I am insecure of myself and I need to show you I’m not”. Like, hey dude, cool story but my story is cooler kind of thing.
2- You give all the decision to her “If you do x, I will do y”. Instead it should be DGAF attitude like Uncle Vasya’s Level 99 DGAF and Outcome Independence
All you do is scream about ultimatums, please read your quoted text above and think again about what you wrote, how is that he doesn't know what else to do as he tells her the situation she might end up in if she decides to go to Europe with friends? He EXACTLY know what he will do and informs her about it, he's not trying to stop her, he's not trying to talk her out of it, it's a set rule which isn't open for discussion. She should know there are girls interested in you and if she decides to leave it won't take you long to replace her.
Ok, so there is some misinterpretation on what I wrote but I think I found common ground: 1. “I don’t know what else to do” what I meant by that was: “I already applied dread/subtle contracts/established boundaries/outcome independence/subtle hints/improved smv but you still wanna go, so I need to tell you overtly what I’m gonna do if you go on with it because I’m afraid of losing you” 2. Yes, she should know by Dread that you can get other girls, and in spite of that she is willing to go, you can only turn your back, outcome independence, stoicism and let her know it would be better to split, no ultimatums, disrespect is not accepted.
Edit: remember that desire is not negotiable the ultimatum by itself is a negotiation and that will kill her desire for you.
I've followed the same advice before however when I do this it always results in a "cold war" of sorts to the point where things just fizzle out and die. Any suggestions to avoid this or is this just occurring because it was bound to end sooner or later and my actions just simply speed up the process?
Considering you were doing it right, generally it means she wasn’t going to submit to your will and you were never going to get what you wanted out of her.
I do however, see a lot of guys misinterpreting withdrawing attention/dread. They go into this “silent game” mentality where they seem all butthurt and sulky. That’s not withdrawing attention/dread, that’s wearing your heart on your sleeve.
Withdrawing attention is going about your life happily, positively just as you normally would, except without her. It’s basically living as a happy single man for that period. Going out with your mates, texting/chatting to other girls. Basically living like you would without her, it’s up to her to make the decision to try and win you back. If not you continue as you were indefinitely.
This is a really fantastic and timely post for me. Last night I had a 1 hour journal entry and it really was an introspective experience. I might make a few posts because I think it might help a lot of guys that are on the journey like myself.
Back to the point (hoping to add some value here with stories), my LTR mentioned that she is jealous of the time I've been spending with my roommate which is apparently "more time than with her." The tough thing about taking the pill while already in a relationship, is that boundaries mostly don't exist. We were happy just to get with that chick that's the hottest one we've ever been with. I enjoyed the whole post, and the last sentence was a great closing. The signs are there when she is acting up, but when you are in an LTR, you tend to be more lenient (the girls put blue pills in our food to soften/fatten us up). I've been more vocal about issues and boundaries as of late which seems to help. Her slutty friends wanted to go to Vegas, so I've been having that travel talk a few times. But after having those talks, now it's "unfair" that I can travel with my friends without permission, but she cannot. So we can see the signs of things building up and minor shit tests.
As we discussed the issue, I told her that she will never fully understand me, and all she wishes for is more time with me right now. It's always RIGHT NOW with women, let's not forget. She has been a good LTR, but I told her "try and see things from the captain's eyes." Of course she won't put any thought into it, but my point was "what are you adding to my life?" You hang out with me, do a few nice things for me, and you get my time/commitment/dick (TCD). They always want more because it's their way of making sure you're not fooling around. But as I sit here with my new latest introspective thoughts, I realize that I am a far bigger prize than she is. I have my shit together (mostly haha), and she is just a girl in the world with no direction. It's tough to internalize, but I will spend more time on this and working on myself. It takes experience to really come to what Keffir is getting at. You won't get it over night or even within a few months. It will take a lot of trial and error too. I feel I'm 65-75% of the way there.
I know the true root of my problem is that I'm not being honest with myself. I won't be fully red pilled until I am, but I can see the right path now.
can you share what are you reading? new to these things.
I'm not doing much in terms of reading these days. I have lurked on this subreddit for 1.5 years and consumed a lot of information. I do have 1 book to recommend called Happiness by Mattieu Ricard. This is not related to pickup but is a buddhist book that talks about emotional control and appears to be similar to stoicism. I think this is key to getting over the anger phase (want to make a future post about it as well).
You really do just have to pick up the info that's here and apply it to your life in any way you see fit. Read, experiment, study the results and move forward. I'm only part way there, but I can see and feel myself growing and applying the knowledge I've gained here. I hope this somewhat helps, let me know if you need more info/guidance and I'll do what I can!
Nowadays all you can read on this sub is pseudo science bullshit. I miss the old days
idk how people are agreeing to the control thing here,back in the day such posts would have been downvoted. Abundance mentality is the key. If she wants to go to europe then first she is not ltr material,keep her as a plate. Second now that the first rule is established fuck other hoes. Maintain abundance. Controlling her only smells of insecurity and non abundance.
If you get a dog, you can either learn to control it and train it to behave the way you want, or you can let it shit and piss all over the place and do as it pleases.
It’s really up to you, but if you’re in an LTR you’ve already got a dog.
I swear, the more I get used to the pill, the more my marriage feels like this.
Guys, operant conditioning is your friend. Reward her with compliments and attention when she does good, and punish by taking that shit away when she does bad; including taking away the whole relationship if she does something really bad (like seriously ask to go to Europe without you). It is all just different ways of saying "setting boundaries and enforcing them with the appropriate severity".
Women are made, not born, but neither their parents nor the larger society is willing to be bothered anymore - so if you want one that behaves in the manner you like, you may have to swat it with a rolled up newspaper now and again to teach it how you want shit done. If you also don't want to be bothered, then you will never know how close to your ideal a woman can get. My wife is like a zombie for my dick these days.
This is not about control, it is about boundary enforcement and training. Is it control to explain to her how I want my dick sucked? I could just next her if she doesn't already do it exactly how I like, right? There is a difference between controlling someone, and making it clear to them that there is a right way and wrong way to behave while in a relationship with you.
That’s the things a lot of guys are missing, if you’re in an LTR, why wouldn’t you want her to be proficient at pleasing you? why wouldn’t you want her to behave in a way you like?
Sure you can leave her to her own devices, and just next when she does something you don’t like, but then why even bother? Odds are she’ll do things you don’t like all the time. You’ll be replacing women all the time like clockwork.
In that case you’re far better just playing the plate game. Why invest the time and energy of an LTR into something you know is going to fall apart sometime soon.
oh this makes it clear to me.
i know you are trp endorsed but with due respect sir, the dog isnt gonna go and do something i am gonna tell it not to.Women are bit different. Although some control is required,some boundaries do have to established.
I've noticed a general trend in the manosphere this past 2-3 years, especially with Rollo, towards being more accepting of relationships and even marriage in some instances (Rian Stone). Back in the day, this stuff would have been completely preposterous. Marriage was not even on the radar, it was considered such a beta act. Yet now, it's half considered "MTGOW" to be anti-marriage and even anti-LTR is some (mainstream) Red Pill circles.
Don't get me wrong, I love the guy. But I'm not sure how I feel about this trend. Back in 2012-2013 it was all PUA and the Roosh/Roissy lifestyle was pretty much synonymous with Red Pill. We all saw Roosh's collapse and I honesty think it shook a lot of guys belief in the "fuck bitches never commit in any form" lifestyle, and I can sort of see why. I know the person doesn't define the lifestyle, and there are examples of guys who are happy in this situation (think u/VasilyZaitzev), but I'm so confused right now as the right way to be happy looking in the future. I always avoided relationships and I half-feel I'm missing out (and I'm still young so it's not too late), the 30+ notches are pretty meaningless to me looking back, but at the same time I don't care for an LTR either. Over time I've realised I tolerate dominant behaviours in women way less than your average guy, and most Western women don't bring a lot to the table.
Not sure where I ended up going with this; it's interesting to see the manosphere evolve anyway.
You cannot back into the future - Frank Herbert, Dune
Guys have to do what's right for them. What's right for me is keeping a rotation of 3-5 girls, a few of which I maintain relationships with over time - my OLTR has been around for ~5 years.
Tucker Max got married and so did Neil Strauss - who then threw a lot of shade at the PUA lifestyle.
What "right way"? Do what makes you happy and works for your circumstances. I am not "anti-relationship" - I like to maintain multiple relationships.
Marriage is, to my mind, unnecessary and looks a lot like a trap for men; the woman can freely withdraw what she brings to the marriage contract whereas the man cannot. He can wind up paying an ex-wife to ban other guys and teach his kids to hate him. Who would want that bullshit?
A lot of problems that guys bring to AskTRP would not be problems if they had abundance and such. "Oh, but my LTR is going to Vegas 'wif her girlfriends! I drew a line! I drew a line! But she's going anyway and now I haz to dump her, because: Reasons!" Would this be a big deal if the LTR going to Vegas was a plate going to Vegas? Verdict: Fuck, no. You just put her on the shelf or cut her loose and add another girl to the rotation.
Monogamy isn't "natural" for most species, and it's not particularly good for men.
I'm happy doing what I do because it's right for me. I have work that I like, friendships, a creative hobby, and attention from and sex with women I find attractive. If something else - even marriage - is right for another guy, hey, that's fine. I don't need to "sell" him on why my version of life is right, nor does he have to sell me on his.
A man should never define himself or his "success" by # of bangs. Women should never be the focus, but should be a pleasant accompaniment to a life well lived.
We (both men and women) put a lot of "pressure" relationships and marriage - we expect so much fulfillment from modern marriage - it's just not realistic.
One of my favorite lines with submissive women is: "Women are meant to be OWNED." With sub girls - the intended audience - that is killer.
Don't worry about how the manosphere is changing, think about how you are evolving and how to improve yourself. If the Manosphere flipped on it's head tomorrow, do you think I would be the slightest bit ruffled? Nope. I'd keep doing what's right for me, as I saw it.
vasily do you think folks now are forgetting their goals,i feel all the newbies have made this just about women and pickup game. rp used to be about goals and improving.
The demographic here trends young and young men want sex more than they want to stay alive.
We have to have some patience with the younglings; they have been raised in a world where masculinity is condemned and they are shamed for having natural male desires.
Also, with the Mgtow and incel subs shut down, guys that would have gone there now come here, with different agendas. It changes the tenor of the sub, at least until the mods can sort things out. It’s a process.
There's no right way to be happy. That's your mistake. TRP is not a group/church/club with rules set for the members.
It's a set of framework of observations about human nature combined with the social structure and its laws we live in today and how to be successful in that context. You can choose to get married, have an LTR or spin plates. TRP shows you reality so that you can be informed of consequences should you choose certain paths in life.
There is no wrong way or right way. Just your way.
There's also the fact the is improbable that you can keep spinning plates forever. After a certain age you either pay for whores, or choose a woman and drag her down with you. There's a limit even with super famous people (perceived alphas) of how long they can keep fucking young women.
Why not just punch her in the stupid head? What kind of freaking relationship con artist is she to think she has the right to trap a man in a LTR then say she's going to Europe all Summer?
Sorry, until men get the nerve to end that crap, it will continue to happen.
Also, be proactive about setting soft boundaries early on. That way when pressed, you can turn them into hard boundaries if need be later on in the relationship, and they are not so unexpected (yet they are).
Very good post, thanks.
I had a personal experience like that, had an established dominant baseline, it was wonderful at first, girl always catered to me, lovely letters, great sex, promises of happily ever after and all that fluff. Then I was the one that got too comfortable, and started catering to her, and indeed, eventually the tables turned, I didn't notice the signs and like a shock I was then completely on her frame trying to remedy the situation, it was so bad that didn't take long for her drop me like used goods, and even then I was so out of myself that only made it worse by trying to go after her.
The thing is, that really crept up to me, I'll know better now not to give in when the girl really caters to you, but still could use some external advice there. It seems like very strong seducing tactics, but at the same I don't really think she was fully aware of this, and how it would sabotage our relationship.
I think you learned your lesson. Be very nice, but don't cater to them. She gets what she needs SO LONG AS you get what you need, which of course is sex.
It helps a great deal if you have more than one woman so you aren't worried about losing them. When things progress to where she asks to be exclusive, that is my teachable moment. I tell them I'm looking for a best friend, and ask how she would grade herself on that so far. I explain that we can be exclusive if after a year things are going well and we are best friends. And that if she ever loses interest in having sex every day, that means I am allowed to see other women.
If there is ever angry drama from a woman I calmly explain that a best friend doesn't do that, and we need to be better before things progress. That is how to do it. Never getting angry, never lecturing, always being positive. Letting them know what you need before the relationship can progress.
Its worth mentioning that when she pulls back it can sometimes be a test for HER to try to gain control of the relationship and once she gains control/frame, she loses respect for you. And once a woman loses respect and admiration, its over.
Also, its important to mention that for the newbies, that if you have lost frame over time and are now in the beta position, she will usually oppose you and will internally laugh at your attempts to regain frame. Too much damage has already been done.
Conclusion: if frame/control is lost in a big way or over time to where the dynamic changes, its over. Hold frame and lead.
u/KeffirLime Great post, and the part about a womans behavior being a projection of her internal state was a great point.
I’m going to get downvoted to hell but this post is helpful only if you have no intention to act like an alpha man.
It’s brutal but please read and understand my words:
What should you do instead? BUILD FRAME -> SILENTLY GET THE RESPECT YOU DESERVE
Situation: girl wants to go to Europe with her slutty friends.
Option 1: don’t bat an eye, worry in silence she’ll cheat, probably keep her afterwards. BETA
Option 2: offer an ultimatum? You’re scared. Why?
Childish: easy way out the problem but you lose frame. It shows you’re insecure because you’re scared of her cheating. Why? Because you didn’t have good frame. You know it, and you let her know it by doing this.
Counterproductive: taking the easy way out doesn’t allow you to develop as a man.
Loses respect: because it’s borderline controlling. Actively controlling a woman is beta behaviour.
BETA-ALPHA
Option 3: she goes and she doesn’t cheat because you think, act and live like an Alpha. Why?
You have immersive value: Girls don’t take less valuable dick. Fact.
builds frame for you: girl “behaving” on holiday will be questioned by slutty friends, she’ll tell what you are, she’ll add value to your frame, you are a God.
Validates you’re work: Being alpha is DIFFICULT. But do it right and moments like this will validate your work (not the girl, the moment! Never look for validation from a girl)
ALPHA
This is the equivalent of a girl’s shit test. MEN do not need shit tests.
Nissan Skyline has 2 seats. How does Chad and his buddies fit while she blows him assuming he’s in the drivers seat?
Packed tighter than a caravan crossing the border.
short and true. have my upvote, good sir
So TD:LR use mirror tactics
just in time because of this i have fucked up 2 possible girls, they were sending pictures and shit then suddenly started acting more distant, i actually withdrew all atention but i dont know if i should just ignore her completely or just some degree?
Fantastic post and a lot of great comments in this thread. Thank you gentlemen
I don't believe that men historically possessed brute strength. It takes most people driving a car to save energy eating a high calorie diet and either manual labor or powerlifting to achieve that. Now, men would have had even more strength endurance back then yes which would assist survival, but it's more like we have just enough strength size and upper body development to dominate women.
Holy fucking shit this is one the the best articles I've ever read here.
Lol by far not all women are good at reading men and vice versa.
It's hard to understand them because they re illogical but emotional beings
" The simple fix is to change gears from subtle dread to direct dread. Withdraw attention from her, communicate less, be less affectionate, talk to other girls directly. Due to women's heightened ability to read male behavior she'll quickly pick up that her behavior is yielding a negative response from you, pushing you away and reducing your interest. This will spark tension and competition anxiety as the prospect of losing you dawns on her. She'll then adjust her behavior back to what works and you'll be back at your baseline. Continue this for as long as you want the relationship to last. Notice the changes, react, back to baseline. "
Thank you!
[Self-described ‘Male Feminist’ has
leftslunk out of the chat]What else can we do on top of direct and indirect dread?
Giving attention and withdrawing attention. Read my post "Train Your Women".
That was a good read, ty for that.
Instead of reacting like this, with my current LTR, when she asked to be exclusive I wrote down a list of things I expect:
I don't date women who:
Now she automatically turns down those invites from her friends etc. I did not say I wish to force her to do anything, I made it clear she can do what she likes, but that I don't accept certain behaviour from a girlfriend. (which is in indirect way of saying, behave or you'll be replaced)
Works well so far, of course, they can do whatever they like in secret so it's all somewhat pointless.
I'd like to remind more advanced guys that you should distinguish to different things:
These things require different kind of approach. If the case is former, you should act according to the original post. Set your boundaries and keep her behavior at the baseline
If the case is latter - she gives you drama in form of crying and whining that she is afraid to lose you etc but not exactly bitching at you or being aggressive, you should deal with this by giving comfort and a bit more attention to her that she gets more secure (or as we say "throw a bone" to her). Don't go overboard but if you counter this "insecurity drama" like you would counter straight forward bitching (withdrawing attention), things will go south and she will leave you to protect herself. Of course she may be a girl who leaves and soon comes back but I don't see it necessary if you can avoid it with little bit of a calibration. Also be aware that she doesn't see a pattern here that "if I cry and bitch how insecure I'm, I can have more attention and comfort".
More retarded "techniques". Women make up their mind to fuck you or not within the first few minutes of meeting you. The animal attraction cycle begins, gets satiated and then fades.
How fucking thirsty for that one pussy do you need to be to engage in clown gymnastics like "HoldFrame", "Control", "Dread", not to mention the shit tests and stupid head games.
She doesn't put up on first few meets, move on. The pussy dries up, next her.
Repeat after me: Self respect and Abundance.
Don't be a fucking clown.
What if dread too much and she wants a breakup?
Establishing a dominant baseline...
Where can I read more on this topic?
this post is just you openly explaining in detail about how abusive of a person you are. you are in some serious need of therapy my dude....
This post literally un-redpilled me
Seriously, how is it a „problem“, if your girlfriends wants to visit Europe with her friends? To see this as a threat is just admitting that you are scared of losing her. If you are reall into her, you could and should be happy for her to be able to have a positive experience like that. And if she fucks around during that trip and it hurts your precious feelings, then you are not independent, you need the validation as the only man in her life to accept yourself. Live your life as you please and don’t tell your gf (even indirectly by withdrawing attention as a retarded mind-game) how to behave and live her life
Lord Father God, Bless this post and the never ending TRP wisdom I am blessed with everyday 🙏
I love you guys 🙏🙏🙏
Be a Bee, not a BeeKeeper!
To be a bee is everybody’s possibility; everybody can grow into being a bee. An unpatterned, alive, spontaneous life, moment-to-moment life, is the gate to it, the key to it. If one can live not out of the past then one is a bee, and then there is honey all around.
I know it is difficult to explain this to a Beekeeper like yourselves. The question is right: “What is honey anyway?” The Beekeeper has never known about it. He lives just at the root of the plant where flowers bloom and bees collect honey, but he has not moved in that dimension. Honey is: the joy of life, the sweetness of just being here, now, the sweetness of just being able to be. That joy is honey – and there are millions of flowers blooming all around, the whole existence is full of flowers.
If you know how to collect honey, if you know how to be joyful, you become an emperor; if you don’t know, you remain a Beekeeper!
The bee has a few things… And those have to be understood, and they are very dangerous things. One: the bee is never attached to any flower. That is the most profound secret: the bee is not attached to any flower. It has no nuclear girlfriend, no wife, no attachments. It simply moves wherever any flower invites it. It has freedom.
It is as if you are forced to eat the same thing every day – how long will you be able to enjoy it? You may have enjoyed it on the first day, yes, the second day, the third day, but then it will start getting on your nerves. Then for ever and ever… Then you will start getting bored, and because man is bored he invents a thousand and one ways to distract his mind: sits glued to the chair before the TV for six hours – what stupidity – or goes to the movie, or listens to the radio, or reads the newspaper, or goes to clubs where bored people just like you gather together. One is flirting outside to somehow distract oneself from the boredom that has happened inside the relationship.
Because of the traditional relationship structures that love has been completely damaged, that the sweetness of life has been completely poisoned. People are clinging to each other, people are trying to possess each other, not to enjoy but to possess. Possession has become the enjoyment. A great shift has happened: you are with a woman not to enjoy her, you are not enjoying her; you are with a man not to enjoy the man, you are not enjoying at all, but to possess. Politics has entered, ambition has entered, economics has entered; love is not there.
Love knows no possession. I am not saying you cannot live with a woman for long – you can live for lives together – but there will be no family. By family I mean the legal possession; by family I mean the demand. The husband can demand from the wife, he can say, “You are obliged to give me love.” Nobody is obliged to give anybody love. The BF can force the GF to love him. When you can force somebody to love, love disappears; then there is only pretension. Then the GF is fulfilling a duty, then the BFis fulfilling a duty. Duty is not love. Love is honey, duty is white sugar – you will suffer from diabetes sooner or later. White sugar is poison – it is pure poison. Yes, it tastes similar, a little bit like the honey, but it is not honey.
It is attachment, it is possessiveness that has destroyed your capacity to go to many flowers, to taste all the flowers. Just think of a bee collecting honey from just one flower – that honey will not be very rich, the richness comes out of the variety. Her life is boring, it was not rich.
“I am bored! What should I do?” You are doing everything to get bored and they are thinking as if boredom is happening from somewhere else. Now, you are living with a woman you don’t love anymore, but your programming say once you have promised, you have to fulfill the promise: be a man who keeps a promise. Once you are committed, you have to fulfill the commitment. Now if you are bored, nothing is surprising – love has disappeared.
“Be a bee, be free!” Be together with her, but the commitment is toward love, not toward the woman; the commitment is toward love, not toward the man. This is a basic difference: you are committed to love, you are committed to happiness. When love is dissolving, when happiness has gone, then say thank you and move on.
Such should be the case with everything in your life. If you are a doctor and you are bored with your job, then you should be capable of dropping it any moment, whatsoever the cost. With risk, life becomes adventure. But you think, “Now I am forty, forty-five, and how can I drop out of the job? And it is going very well financially.” But spiritually, psychologically, you are dying. You are slowly committing suicide. Then it is perfectly okay, if you want to destroy yourself and save the bank-balance, it is perfectly okay.
But the moment you feel that the job is no longer a satisfying job, drop out of it! The moment you see that something is no longer appealing, has lost the quality of allurement, of enchantment, is no longer magnetic, then don’t cling to it. Then say, “I am sorry.” Then feel grateful for the past, for all that has happened through the person, through the job, through anything, but remain open in the future. This is the meaning of being a bee. “Only the bee knows that each flower is full of honey.”
Tl Dr : Medium is the message
i think you're reading way too much into this or you haven't been with the same woman for very long.
Some people just like to travel. Going to Europe doesn't always mean wanting new dick. It also depends on how long you have been dating or what the nature of the relationship is. If you're both fucking other people, than yeah of course she's not exclusively into you. But if its your girlfriend of a few years, then you'd be crazy jealous boyfriend to automatically just assume shes planning on cheating.
I may be missing something here. If you are gonna lose all you have anyway - years of your life, a marriage or LTR, why not just freaking reach your fist back and punch her so freaking hard in the forehead? CRACK. It's worth the legal trouble. What kind of man sits there listening to "Oh hey I'm gonna go with my ho friends to Europe all Summer"?
Some people just want to travel bro
You've basically written an article for validation as some kind of contributor to the red pill.
beta move
If she wants you and wants to travel she will ask you if you can travel together
Travel without inviting you? You are not that important in her life, especially when both of you have declared exclusivity with each other.
But some people enjoy traveling with both their partners and friends. I love traveling with my husband, but sometimes I'll take a weekend getaway by myself because I'm a natural introvert and have hobbies my husband doesn't care about, and vice versa (he doesn't want to spend all weekend bird watching, I don't want to spend all weekend trying new cocktails). And occasionally I'll take a small trip with a friend because we share a hobby and I enjoy their company.
It boggles the mind that "woman wanting to take vacation with female friend" is an automatic "woman wants to get drunk and ride the cock carousel". It suggests a level of insecurity and need for control that is positively beta.
For some reason I don't think you read his post
What point do you think I am missing?
some people also just want to accidentally get too drunk and accidentally end up in someone elses bed
Actions are an external projection of the internal state.
Ending the conversation at "some people just want to do it" is a failure to further explore the underlying driving forces behind that action.