Men and women are more similar than RP people often think, and more different than BP people often think.

Flightlessbirbz · 2021-02-11T21:10:55+00:00

I agree with this for the most part. Men and women are different, but we also have a lot in common as humans. I consider myself red pilled in the sense that I believe in significant gender differences, but I can’t stand the “women’s nature = bad, men’s nature = good/neutral” narrative in red pill communities. Some of it is also pretty out of touch with reality and way too reliant on elaborate theories trying to make women look bad.

wtknight · 2021-02-11T16:53:14+00:00

These are generalizations, of course. The problem that BP has is that RP often thinks that these things are universals.

Men can think confident women are cool, but a woman acting or speaking confidently does not generally arouse us at a visceral level.

Many men are attracted to confident women. There are several reasons for this that make evolutionary sense.

Women are uniquely attracted to sexually successful men in virtue of being sexually successful (i.e. preselection AKA mate choice copying, found in studies to be much more of a phenomenon in women than in men)

Many women aren't as attracted to sexually successful men. These concerns likely are dependent upon that individual woman's confidence level and how much she is concerned about said man cheating because of his past sexual success, and thus potentially not providing needed resources for her offspring as well as emotional support.

Studies can show that women tend to be attracted to certain things, but these are generalizations that aren't going to apply to every woman, which is why Red Pill inevitably only works as an heuristic. Ideally, the psychology of every individual woman should be considered in order to determine what attracts her.

Both women and men can be "hypergamous"

You're misunderstanding the way that TRP uses the term "hypergamy," which refers to sexual hypergamy, and women usually only being attracted to men who they consider "better" than them or admirable in some way. On the other hand, a man can still be sexually attracted to a woman who he finds completely inferior to him in every way. However, when it comes to relationships, men do want to optimize the quality of the woman who they commit to long-term.

"Women are the gatekeepers of sex, men are the gatekeepers of relationships" is bullshit.

Most men would have sex with almost any woman if they could and they had no other choices, so in this sense women are the gatekeepers of sex, since they do not behave in this way.

Men are the gatekeepers of relationships in situations where a woman is already sexually attracted to said man and where said man has other sexual options. However, men who are not sexually desirable to women or who do not have other options are not the gatekeepers of relationships, although I suppose that there are men out there who would rather be alone than be in a committed relationship.

oulipost · 2021-02-11T19:00:23+00:00

Sexual dimorphism is deeply embedded in human biology — there are clear cognitive, psychological, and obviously physical differences that evolved a certain way to serve a set of functions that are suggestive of the benefits they may have held for our ancestors. Men have more spacial intelligence and are superior in their physical abilities / strength and other characteristics that define them and their role in early society as the “hunter” or “bread winner”. Physical appearance is more important to men because it shows youth, fertility, health, or to put it more simply, a better chance at giving birth to a healthy offspring.

Women care less about a man’s physical appearance (to a certain extent — during ovulation, they prefer more masculine strong men) and focus more on status, success, resources, and basically what he can provide for her child. Men tend to be less discriminating in terms of their choice of sex partner because evolutionarily, he has an unlimited amount of sperm to the day he dies and instinctively desires to spread his seed.

Women have to be more picky because they can only get pregnant once a year which is a big investment on her part. However, while men tend to desire many sexual partners, they prefer a chaste and faithful woman to reduce the possibility of her becoming impregnated with a child that is not his. It’s certain that the child belongs to the mother but there may be doubts as to who the father is.

LillthOfBabylon · 2021-02-11T16:04:24+00:00

Depends on how you define Blue Pilled. I know Men and Women different, but most of them act the same way.

The differences between genders is smaller than the differences between beliefs, personalities, and cultures.

For example, a whiny entitled man has more in common with a whiny entitled woman than he does with the average man.

mydikishomofobik · 2021-02-11T16:26:23+00:00

Hypergamy to me means wanting someone who is above you. Wanting the best partner you can get is a no-brainer for anyone. But women tend to want men who are above them in some way (especially in terms of status). Men aren't like that. They just want someone they find reasonably attractive. A woman doesn't need to make more money than them or have a more prestigious job title or degree than they have.

Zonkey_Zeedonk · 2021-02-11T19:27:58+00:00

Yeah I don’t agree with every one of your specifics but I agree with your overall statement:

Men and women ARE different psychologically/biologically...they are also not different SPECIES and similar in more ways than they are different. Moreover, neither men nor women are a monolith... WOMEN are different from each other, MEN are different from each other...and not just a little different, HUGELY different depending on their culture/upbringing/life experiences. Some women have more in common with many men than other women, and visa versa with men.

The big problem with any “pill” (red, blue, or otherwise) is that they all try reduce something that’s really complex and nuanced down to an oversimplified version of itself and refuse to see it any other way.

How and where someone lives/has lived and what’s happened to them in their life determines how they interact with the opposite sex MUCH more than whether they are male or female and “pills” downplay that way too often.

801735 · 2021-02-11T19:45:24+00:00

It's almost as if we're all only human...

SolarTortality · 2021-02-11T20:35:35+00:00

1) In terms of sexuality and sexual strategy: men and women are very very different.

2) Bell curves. Men and women are similar across many dimensions with small differences, however at the ends of the bell curves this is very different. This is why, at the extremes, all the strongest individuals are mostly men, all the shortest individuals are mostly women, all the most violent criminals are mostly men, ect.

JohnDoe9564 · 2021-02-11T15:38:36+00:00

Women are uniquely attracted to strength, confidence, and other "alpha" traits. It turns them on at a primal level.

Every normal functioning adult knows this. TRP isn't providing groundbreaking info by saying this.

Sometimes I wonder about the social lives of men who used to believe otherwise

Emervila · 2021-02-11T15:47:38+00:00

both parties have decided the other person is attractive / high value enough to fuck or date.

The criteria or parameters used to determine to have sex and when, that's were the gatekeeping works. I'll use my own experencie as example

I was an avg to ugly guy. After 25-27 I got a decent job and found RP, started to improve myself and now at 33 I like how I look and dress with a decent life.

When I was 20-25/27. I was completely ignored by several women, they didn't give me the time of the day. They are my age... now that I'm 33 at least 4-5 of them have shown confirmed interest to marry me, to have an LTR pointing to marriage. I asked one of them (34) "why now? nothing happen between us when we were 22" she replied: "because we didn't get to know each other" If I were blue pill and if I hadn't known about Rollo and the sacred RP, I would have been dumb enough to believe in that woman, I'd be marry by now BUT I found RP so I know her answer is bullshit. It's true, we didn't get to know each other but not because there was no chance but because she didn't like me, when we were 22YO she could do better she thought and didn't give me any attention, that's fine but NOW I can do better than her.

IME experience a lot of women who were hot during 20 and found me ugly AF, they know look like rotten milk and miracle of GOd, they now show interest on me. Makes me angry if I'm honest because I'm not a dumpster to pick them up when they're garbage old. They all want to marry me but I know they don't truly feel attracted to me. What do you think?

Think4Yoself · 2021-02-11T22:11:40+00:00

I disagree with both of the areas where you critique what you believe to be redpill ideas.

First, both men and women aren't hypergamous. Hypergamy is marrying up the social hierarchy. Men are not hypergamous, they are perfectly willing to marry down. Women are not. Men and women are both capable of branch-swinging, which is what you are describing and is entirely different than hypergamy. What you're doing is the equivalent of a man getting punched in the mouth by another man, and the one who got punched declaring himself a woman and saying the attacker is sexist. Words have meanings. Just because you're using them incorrectly doesn't mean the actual definition of the word isn't objectively correct.

Second, that is not bullshit. Historically men offered commitment and women offered sex. That was the transactional nature of their relationships. It's still true today in the sense that men withhold commitment from women who they perceive as beneath them, and women withhold sex from men they perceive as beneath them. Now there are certainly women who value themselves as entirely unworthy of almost any man and therefore have sex with a lot of men and there are certainly men who pedestalize women and believe that he isn't worthy of a relationship with any of them and so will jump at any opportunity for a relationship, but the rule still holds.

Gamedragon345 · 2021-02-11T22:47:24+00:00

Men being hypergamous is alpha males choosing the hotter younger woman. Not everyone is an alpha man though. Women being hypergamous is leaving the guy for a richer, hotter guy. "Monkey branching". It seems like women get this opportunity to be hypergamous more often. I mean women always marry up, and the benefits they get from being hypergamous seem more tangible than what a man gets. But oh well its a hopeless argument.

AdditionTogether3535 · 2021-02-12T18:00:09+00:00

IMO no one knows exactly how much of our attraction is genetic and how much is cultural. But we have what we have. For men, how a woman looks is a bigger issue than how a man looks for a woman. For women, how a man projects "alpha-ness" is a bigger issue than how a woman projects "alpha-ness" to a man. But it's not black and white, since men are still attracted to strength in women and women are still attracted to good looks in men.

I definately have a certain type of women, someone who is confident, sunny, has her professional life together, but is also an artistic "dark girl". But that is probably more just me as a person than me as a man. Either way, I notice the irony that seductive and highly desired women have many "alpha" and "bad boy" traits.

But as a man, I learned more about how to look attractive to women over time. A large part of it is just not making such a big deal about it and learning how to relax and be fun. Being involved in your life, pursuing your goals and ambitions, seeing women as enriching your life and not being your life, goes a long way.

That is where a lot of the "just be confident" stuff comes in. It's less about being confident and more about not putting power in the other people's hands (in this case, women you like) to make or break you. If you know your standards, know your goals in life, know your worth, then you make potential partners have to prove their worth to you. That puts power in your hands and makes you more attractive. And more importantly, makes you much happier.

Naus1987 · 2021-02-11T19:25:08+00:00

As an asexual, I strongly disagree that sexual attraction is required for romantic love.

I admit that I’m of a rare breed, but I see love like a Disney romance. All the PG gushy romance stuff without any of the sex.

—

I also find strong women attractive specifically because it feeds into my innate desire for competition. I don’t want a strong woman to control me. I want a strong woman to test me, and push me to be greater than I would have been otherwise.

I do have to admit that my ultra competitive steak doesn’t always mesh well with relationships. I see losing as more incentive to try harder. But a lot burn out and get inferiority complexes. Either way — it’s not healthy long term lol.

Suffice to say, I am still attracted to the fire.

Man, people are so complex, lol!!

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majani · 2021-02-11T16:29:25+00:00

The differences between the sexes are small but the effects of these differences is significant. For example the balls are small masses that secrete mere milligrams of testosterone. Scientifically speaking, you could interpret balls to only be a small difference between the genders, but we all know the effects of that are massive.

LPNinja · 2021-02-11T20:54:47+00:00

What I don‘t get about how any time someone is referring to studies, they do not take time to critically go through empirical work. RP, BP and PB tend to make generalized statements based on studies that simply describe average tendencies from thousands of samples that have to be critically analyzed.

Any college/university student who had one class in empirical research methods can tell you that these studies usually describe correlation and tendencies. But they do not describe, explain or PROVE causality. Even the tendencies are not proven, they are just being described.

That‘s why peer reviews and doing experiments over and over again are so important because one research group can come up with a different results each time.

Acceptable_Parking96 · 2021-02-11T23:06:24+00:00

For most RP people it's common knowledge that every human trait varies between humans. RP content often emphasises the words "most" or "more often that not" etc. Not all women and some men practice genetic hypergamy. BP people are usually mostly unfamiliar with the nature of women/men etc. More often they follow the flawed narrative of feminism which labels men and women as identical in every way and choose not to believe in RP philosophy.

DiCateRedPill · 2021-02-11T23:20:22+00:00

Hypergamy by definition is a woman's desire to seek a man above her level. The best man she can get. Men do not seek women that are above their own level. You don't see men looking for a rich woman to take care of them. Men are not hypergamous. Sure, a man would leave a woman for a better option, but a man is not seeking a woman above his level. A man usually instinctively puts himself as the head of the relationship. People who say men are hypergamous are flat out wrong. I can't believe Rollo has spent countless hours explaining this across 4 books and hundreds of hours of video and people still seem to not understand it. It makes perfect sense.

leebeebee · 2021-02-12T00:04:36+00:00

Though I can’t read the study you posted due to the paywall, I don’t think it supports your point.

“Women were more likely to rate male targets as more desirable when presented alongside a female while no obvious effects were detected with male choice. These sex differences disappeared in studies that ‘augment’ cues, as both sexes rated targets as more attractive when in the presence of more desirable others. We also detected high levels of heterogeneity in effect sizes and a moderate publication bias in favor of positive reports of MCC.”

So: women like men more when they’re presented with other women. Couldn’t the presence of a woman be an indication that the man she’s with is safe, and probably less likely to hurt you? Like a subconscious vetting process? If this is the case, couldn’t men achieve the same effect in other ways (e.g. having a pet or doing volunteer work)? Again, I can’t read the full text, but the conclusion that women like men who bang a lot of women seems like a stretch.

The publication bias thing is interesting, too. Studies like this tend to be encourage sensationalism, so IDK how reliable they are.

Beyond that, my biggest problem with TRP et al is that the differences between genders are presented as the result of evolutionary biology rather than cultural conditioning—as nature rather than nurture. There’s really no way to prove that these kinds of gender differences are the result of biology (at least, not yet), and the idea that these traits are somehow hardcoded into us is often used as a rationalization for the oppression of women. (It’s also used as an excuse for men behaving badly—“boys will be boys” is bullshit.)

So yeah, the differences that you’ve mentioned may exist, but that doesn’t mean they can’t change or that we should perpetuate them.

5kevin · 2021-02-12T02:40:35+00:00

On point

kay_mckinsey · 2021-02-12T03:23:40+00:00

This is the only PP post I’ve seen in a long time on this sub. Honestly thank you for the break from thinly veiled RPs haha

loudbeat69 · 2021-02-12T04:05:38+00:00

My experience with dealing with most Men and Women is that they think all this RP/BP/PP is all bullshit. Only the extremes of either gender go to their crazy pill side.

CentralAdmin · 2021-02-12T04:06:37+00:00

Yes we are more similar than we are different.

But those differences are quite stark.

But we both have the inborn wiring to, within a certain range, seek out the highest SMV mate we can

Yes but hypergamy refers to a specific female sexual strategy. If women were like men, they would have multiple husbands at once. Yet there are many cultures where men marry multiple women. In matriarchal societies you don't see a female chief with five husbands. Women get attached to one man and desire his offspring, provision and protection. When they do have multiple partners they tend to exhibit serial monogamy, not polygamy. They are hypergamous.

women can't love men in the way that men can love women.

I believe he said women cannot love men in the way men want to be loved.

Women will never give up their lives to protect men in the same way they would children. Men are more likely to put themselves in harm's way for women. Men have to earn loyalty and often have to navigate women's love like some elaborate game. In fact, men have to learn 'game' to attract women!

Women also enjoy and prefer a parent-child dynamic where the man leads/is the parent. If her husband is like a father figure, making decisions, providing and protecting her and the kids, all is well. Women do not enjoy a parent-child dynamic where they are in the role of parent. As hypocritical as it is, it does destroy the relationship. Some women will even call their partners 'Daddy' and see no problem with it. A man who sees his wife as a Mommy is weak or has psychological issues.

A woman can show vulnerability and not lose the attraction of her partner. A man cannot do the same reliably. A woman can lose her job and being a stay at home mom is seen as a viable role for her. A man cannot shirk his gender roles without it causing problems in the relationship.

It doesn't have to be unconditional love. But women have more conditions for love to happen and they increase their demands and expectations as the relationship grows.

Both men and women have standards for every type of sexual/romantic relationship. Both casual and romantic relationships are mutual engagements where both parties have decided the other person is attractive / high value enough to fuck or date.

Women being the gatekeepers of sex has to do with supply and demand. It also, once again, has to do with gender roles. Men desire sex more than women. If this were not true, women would pay for sex and a greater proportion of them would enjoy casual sex without feeling used. Women generally do not approach men. Men are expected to initiate and escalate, showing greater commitment as the relationship grows. This includes initiating sex.

This means women are almost always in the position of choosing, or saying yay or nay. If you're in the position to make the decision on whether something is happening or not, you are the gatekeeper.

AttackOnTightPanties · 2021-02-14T06:45:38+00:00

This is one of the most sane posts I’ve seen here. Thank you.

Title	Men and women are more similar than RP people often think, and more different than BP people often think.
Author	purplepilldthrowaway
Upvotes	145
Comments	177
Date	February 11, 2021 3:33 PM UTC (5 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/lhn51k/men_and_women_are_more_similar_than_rp_people/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/men-and-women-are-more-similar-than-rp-people.740100 https://theredarchive.com/post/740100

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