Judge in "female teacher has sex with male student" calls out double standard.

romegas314 · 2015-03-18T19:12:05+00:00

http://patch.com/michigan/birmingham/catholic-teacher-who-had-sex-student-reportedly-stunned-sentence-0 The interesting bit involving what Judge Nanci Grant...

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... and at that age I was more than capable of making decisions myself.

Bullshit. We don't let kids drive a car at that age. A 15 year old is capable of handling many things, however there are many things that they cannot deal with.

I had a similar thing happen to me as a 15 year old

I'm 39. I can mess with the mind of a 15 year old with ease. I can easily ascertain the emotional wants and needs to a child, give it to him/her for something in return. Especially if I get the kid intoxicated.

This kid is 15. His hormones are raging, plus society is telling him that he needs to go fuck someone. You think he can make an informed decision especially when an adult with authority is pressuring him? Did he use a condom? Is he sure she doesn't have STDs? Did he weigh all the possible consequences to actions? Is she truly worth fucking?

These are simple questions for adults to answer, not so much to a 15 year old child.

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This boy was abused by his teacher, she used her authority to take advantage of him. This is objectively wrong, and the situation would be no different had the genders been reversed, this we can all agree on.

However, age of consent has little to nothing to do with maturity. It is all about power imbalance. If you make it about maturity, either mental or physical, you go into a mine field of what-ifs and varying scenarios. Maturity isn't even remotely uniform, especially at that age. Basing it specifically on mental maturity has the issue that mental maturity isn't something everyone gets, it comes with experience in life, and if you argue at 15/16 you can't consent because you don't understand the consequences of sex, then you would have to concede that neither do most 18-24 year olds ( there are legitimately people who want to raise the AoC to 25 BTW). Also, physical maturity isn't even an issue unless you ignore reality. While there are late bloomers, the vast majority of people finish puberty at that age, which is why traditionally the 15th ( quinceanera) or 16th ( sweet sixteen) birthday is seen as the day girls become women (Men of course, have to earn their "manhood", but thats a different subject entirely). Conflating the attraction to people who have finished physical development to people who lust after children is ignorant at best, and at worst it is demonizing the vast majority of people's normal sexuality. Attraction doesn't equal pursuing, power dynamics making it immoral and all.

About the definition of "child". 13-17 are only legally defined as children. They are biologically and realistically adolescents which is neither child nor adult. The legal definition ignores AoC laws(which varies from 16-18) and can extend past 18 in some circumstances. Sleeping with a minor ( adolescent under the age of consent) is wrong, because of the aforementioned power imbalance, but it is absolutely fucking nothing like fucking a child.

Fun fact; the AoC is 18 in only 11 states. It's 16 in 32 of the states and the VAST majority of the world. Yet, you bet your ass you'll get called a "pedo' for saying a 16 year old is hot, despite them being physically indistinguishable from 18-21 year olds.

TL:DR fucking a adolescent minor is morally and legally wrong, but it isn't pedophillia, it doesn't even come close.

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underage

Under what age? Sex organs are specifically for pleasure.

The sex organs are not the only ones involved in the physical or emotional implications of sex, though.

Moreover, sex organs are not "for" pleasure. They are for reproduction. The fact that the act of reproduction can be physically enjoyable is merely a side effect of evolution, wherein the proto-mammals who enjoyed sex had more of it, and were therefore more successful, biologically.

If a person wants to combine their sex organs with another person's sex organs in order to feel good, it shouldn't matter what outsiders think of the action.

So by your rationale if a 4 year old girl wanted to give oral sex to a 40-year-old man, that would be ok?

It's called consent. Try asking what they want. I'm sure with a little respect they would tell you.

The problem comes in when the sex act involves a person who is unable to give an informed, knowing, consent by reason of their inability to fully understand the implications of their actions.

My ten-year-old would "consent" to staying home from school on any day of the week ending in "y", and he would be the only one affected by that action. But we don't let him, because he is not mature enough to give that consent.

[–]AKnightAlone 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Moreover, sex organs are not "for" pleasure. They are for reproduction.

False. Sex organs are specifically for pleasure. Reproduction is the unintended consequence of that pleasure that people tend to appreciate or at least deal with.

The fact that the act of reproduction can be physically enjoyable is merely a side effect of evolution, wherein the proto-mammals who enjoyed sex had more of it, and were therefore more successful, biologically.

As I said, you have this backwards. The animals who had the biological capacity to enjoy and lust for that pleasure were more likely to inadvertently reproduce. Then, the animals who kept that child alive were more likely to have their genes spread to the next generation.

So by your rationale if a 4 year old girl wanted to give oral sex to a 40-year-old man, that would be ok?

A child of that age is actually a child. They aren't physically developed in a sexual sense. To argue in support of pedophilia requires an extreme rework of our current society's values and it simply isn't logical to assume it would be beneficial without those extreme changes. Even if there was somehow a situation of non-abusive pedophilia, that adult would be subject to a society that would not simply imprison him, there would be swathes of people ready and willing to brutally murder him. Also, I have to say "him," because of the absurdity that people always judge the adult male to be demonic scum, whereas the female abuser would just be seen as mentally disturbed(the empathetic and logical conclusion.)

The problem comes in when the sex act involves a person who is unable to give an informed, knowing, consent by reason of their inability to fully understand the implications of their actions. My ten-year-old would "consent" to staying home from school on any day of the week ending in "y", and he would be the only one affected by that action. But we don't let him, because he is not mature enough to give that consent.

And still, it's not something that should be driven from discussion. Childhood consent is a serious issue. I've seen plenty of people on Facebook demonizing the idea of childhood consent, and I'm not talking about sex. Simple consent. A Tea Party psycho page called "Right Wing News" points out anything they don't like, they label it "liberal" or whatever other positive term, then whine about abuses. They had a post about Brad Pitt and Jolie's kid who wanted to be called the opposite gender. They demonized the thought saying things like "my son wants to be a firetruck, does that make him one?" In absolute seriousness, a transgender individual is far better off if diagnosed before puberty so they can more properly make the hormonal transition to the proper sex. If we don't respect the sincere feelings of the child in this situation, what suffering are we forcing on them? How extreme is our automatic disrespect and lack of acceptance?

On top of all this, people are very different. I've seen children smart enough to speak more properly and eloquently that most adults I know. Even more intelligently. What do the adults do? They treat the child like an animal in the zoo. "Aw, how cute! He's like a little man! He seriously speaks like an adult!" Rather than respecting the child as an individual, we place them on a separate pedestal and analyze them. Think of every time someone points out how a person is rather than just automatically treating them like a human. Too much, even of compliments, can lead a person to focus on themselves in the wrong ways and ultimately result in anxiety disorders or all sorts.

[–]BullsLawDan 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Sex organs are specifically for pleasure. Reproduction is the unintended consequence of that pleasure that people tend to appreciate or at least deal with.

Uh, no. Do you have a source on this?

Even if there was somehow a situation of non-abusive pedophilia,

See, this is your problem. You don't understand that there is no such thing. Sexual activity with children is abusive.

Childhood consent is a serious issue. I've seen plenty of people on Facebook demonizing the idea of childhood consent, and I'm not talking about sex. Simple consent. A Tea Party psycho page called "Right Wing News" points out anything they don't like, they label it "liberal" or whatever other positive term, then whine about abuses. They had a post about Brad Pitt and Jolie's kid who wanted to be called the opposite gender. They demonized the thought saying things like "my son wants to be a firetruck, does that make him one?" In absolute seriousness, a transgender individual is far better off if diagnosed before puberty so they can more properly make the hormonal transition to the proper sex. If we don't respect the sincere feelings of the child in this situation, what suffering are we forcing on them? How extreme is our automatic disrespect and lack of acceptance?

Childhood consent is different in transgender issues than it is in issues of sexual activity because there is huge potential for manipulation and exploitation in sexual activity. There would not be any motive for manipulating a child to think they are transgender.

On top of all this, people are very different. I've seen children smart enough to speak more properly and eloquently that most adults I know. Even more intelligently.

And I drive a very nice sports sedan, almost 25 years accident-free, and surely would be safe driving at 90mph on a limited-access freeway.

Guess what? Still illegal, because we do not write laws for the best and brightest, we write laws to protect people who need protection.

Rather than respecting the child as an individual, we place them on a separate pedestal and analyze them.

We don't treat children the same as adults because they are not adults. They are not capable of doing everything that adults do.

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[–]AKnightAlone 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

you had to look up one of the definitions of exploitation

I "looked it up" for sake of argument. If you happen to be on Chrome, check out the Google Dictionary app. It's awesome. Double-click any word and a quick definition will pop up.

Did you not hear about the case of the kid who, in a similar situation is now liable for child support?

I did and it's also absurd. My stance is that a male should have the right to pay half the cost of an abortion and be exempt from child support. That would be a simple punishment for a young and irresponsible male.

It's wrong guy. And there's not a damned thing you can say to me to change that view point, and in fact your rationalization is sickening.

My rationalization is coming from a perspective of very in-depth thought, introspection, argument on Reddit over years, and unadulterated humanism. A person should not be caged for pleasure that is logically completely consensual. To me, 15 is a very logical age to place sexual consent laws. Any younger and even I consider it very questionable.

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Sex is basically a drug that's required for the survival of humanity. Everyone should enjoy it in a healthy life. Age diversity is an interesting variable, but in a situation where we're talking about a 15 year old, we're absolutely not talking about a child. I've had sex with a 15 year old and had absolutely no thought in my mind that it was unusual. I was 16 at the time, but why should our peer drug use be abuse worthy of 6 years of being in a cage? 6 years. It was totally okay for me because I was close in age, but why is age variation wrong? Why is it harmful? If anything, an adult in the situation would be far less likely to make mistakes, accidental pregnancies, inability to afford care for a child, etc.

The only thing wrong with a situation like this is due to the abuse of an authority over a person under their watch. At most, that deserves a year in prison, but I would argue the only punishment should be barring the individual from that authority position. I can only see this harmful anti-sex thinking as being an extension of our illogical religious-moral culture. We treat sex as an evil outside of consensual heterosexual marriage.

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It's not about sexual consent. The teacher holds a position of influence/power and that precludes the two of them having a sexual relationship. This is true in the US military and many, many fortune 500 companies. You can both be adults and still the sexual relationship is disallowed. I've seen that happen firsthand in my workplace. My boss began secretly dating one of the line workers and was forced to leave because of it.

Being in a position of power has responsibilities. If you are not willing to submit to them then don't accept the position.

BTW, society places protection on 15 year olds because they need them. I also agree that they are old enough to have sex without causing mental damage but they are not old enough to become parents. Letting someone have a child at 15 both destroys their future AND leaves me paying the bills. That's why it is illegal: because it strains society as a whole over the rights of an individual.

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4-27.7. Intercourse and sexual offenses with certain victims; consent no defense.

(a) If a defendant who has assumed the position of a parent in the home of a minor victim engages in vaginal intercourse or a sexual act with a victim who is a minor residing in the home, or if a person having custody of a victim of any age or a person who is an agent or employee of any person, or institution, whether such institution is private, charitable, or governmental, having custody of a victim of any age engages in vaginal intercourse or a sexual act with such victim, the defendant is guilty of a Class E felony. Consent is not a defense to a charge under this section.

(b) If a defendant, who is a teacher, school administrator, student teacher, school safety officer, or coach, at any age, or who is other school personnel, and who is at least four years older than the victim engages in vaginal intercourse or a sexual act with a victim who is a student, at any time during or after the time the defendant and victim were present together in the same school, but before the victim ceases to be a student, the defendant is guilty of a Class G felony, except when the defendant is lawfully married to the student. The term "same school" means a school at which the student is enrolled and the defendant is employed, assigned, or volunteers. A defendant who is school personnel, other than a teacher, school administrator, student teacher, school safety officer, or coach, and is less than four years older than the victim and engages in vaginal intercourse or a sexual act with a victim who is a student, is guilty of a Class A1 misdemeanor. This subsection shall apply unless the conduct is covered under some other provision of law providing for greater punishment. Consent is not a defense to a charge under this section. For purposes of this subsection, the terms "school", "school personnel", and "student" shall have the same meaning as in G.S. 14-202.4(d). For purposes of this subsection, the term "school safety officer" shall include a school resource officer or any other person who is regularly present in a school for the purpose of promoting and maintaining safe and orderly schools

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Not in the UK. This teacher got five and a half years and will likely serve half that:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-31923133

Here's some more who aren't getting heavier sentences, some not even going to prison:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2918884/Shameful-week-British-teachers-One-jailed-having-baby-teen-pupil-one-convicted-taking-schoolgirl-s-virginity-teaching-assistant-admits-sexting-pupil-thought-16.html

It seems right that sentences are equal between male and female offenders, but I am never sure if prison is the best way of handling these situations. What psychological effect does it have on the child, seeing someone they love put away, as they will probably feel, because of them? And yet there ought to be a meaningful deterrent. Anyone got any ideas for something that could combine loss of status, some sort of useful work for reparation (to society at large), and not be so potentially harmful to the original victim? Or am I being soft?

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Someone the child loves. The mother of the 15 year old who ran away with her maths teacher was on BBC radio today, and it was obvious that one of her chief concerns now, is that her daughter, who is now 17 will go back to him when he is released. The girl knew the teacher from when she was 13, and began to be groomed by him from when she was 14. This attachment has taken up a substantial part of her life, and I have no idea whether anyone has studied the effects of the punishment given to perpetrators, on their victims. By making the perpetrator look like a victim in the mind of the child, it seems to me that psychological harm or continuing attachment to the perpetrator, is more likely. I am wondering if there is a better way to serve justice, ie to punish the offender, deter others from committing the offence and not do further harm to the child involved.

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Title	Judge in "female teacher has sex with male student" calls out double standard.
Author	romegas314
Upvotes	850
Comments	150
Date	March 18, 2015 7:12 PM UTC (11 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/2zi01j/judge_in_female_teacher_has_sex_with_male_student/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/judge-in-female-teacher-has-sex-with-male-student.985454 https://theredarchive.com/post/985454

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