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[–]Twohagsover30FDS Newbie 226 points227 points228 points 5 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
And sometimes 'empowerment' really means exploiting yourself for men's pleasure. Don't be fooled by libfem fantasties.
[–]Melodic_Novel6309FDS Newbie 93 points94 points95 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Yeah I always had a major disconnect with these libfem notions. I think it's 2 things:
[–]bill_dollaThrowaway Account 21 points22 points23 points 5 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link
Yes. And the women who profit from this exploitation are the biggest proponents (think Cardi B), even though it negatively impacts the rest of us.
[–]verusckaFDS Disciple 161 points162 points163 points 5 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
It bothers me how libfems use “empowerment” and “confidence” interchangeably. If it doesn’t actually give you power, it isn’t empowering. Example: wearing concealer to cover blemishes and dark circles isn’t empowering, but it can make you feel confident. Empowerment would be not spending your hard earned money on cosmetics, and letting your face look however it naturally looks. And then being confident anyway.
[–]uwuwowowuwuPickmeisha™️ 74 points75 points76 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Truth. If you are dependent on the use of a commercial product just to feel confident about yourself, then you aren't empowered- the company that makes that product is.
[–]Fuckdoesithurt956FDS Newbie 53 points54 points55 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Another example: being confident enough to send your boyfriend full body face nudes, because you're probably not feeling "empowered" when he's angry and threatening to send them to your parents.
[–]Mamma_Midnight 17 points18 points19 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
LibFems conflate empowerment & confidence because they're steeped in misogyny & the male gaze. They wear concealer, which means they're conforming to the demands of male sexuality: thus b/c they conform to become sexually appealling, they feel both confident & empowered simulataneously - so they conflate the feelings.
LibFems feel empowered by being sexually appealling becuase they view female empowerment only through a male lens.
A woman being sexually appealling ONLY feels POWERFUL to a heterosexual male. If a woman is sexually appealling, the heterosexual male feels POWERLESS due to his own consuming urges, desires & feelings. He FEELS POWERLESS as he cannot MAKE the woman desire him (hence patriarchal conditioning of owmen to lower standards). So in the male mind, if HE FEELS POWERLESS, then the other person in his mental powerful/powerless dichotomy MUST BE POWERFUL.
It's this idealist, subjective, dichotomous powerful/powerless, male mental state that creates the idea that being sexually appealling to males is 'empowering'. But women only have this power in the male mind - it doesn't exist in material reality & therefore cannot be used for anything, & a woman cannot leverage this power without the presence & approval of men.
This LibFem form of 'empowerment' is basically forcing a woman to live permanently seeing herself through the male gaze. Without it the 24/7 internalised male gaze, she will feel no power at all, because the only place this power exists is in the male mind.
LibFem 'empowerment' is a really insidious form of patriarchal oppression.
[–]QueenAlice3FDS Newbie 102 points103 points104 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Exactly. The term empowered fails to recognize that women are naturally powerful and society is geared to suppress that. We don’t need empowerment. We need freedom and support to use our own capabilities.
Empowerment refers to the allowing of us to momentarily use our facilities but it isn’t a permanent transfer of power. It’s a temporary loan to distract us from the fact that they don’t want to reorganize society in our favour.
It’s like being handed a cookie and a head pat while they walk around holding our leashes.
Women don’t need conditional empowerment. We need societal/patriarchal emancipation.
[–]AlextheAnalystFDS Newbie 19 points20 points21 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
This is so well put, thank you for articulating it like this.
[–]AlextheAnalystFDS Newbie 64 points65 points66 points 5 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
As I was reading, I kept thinking, "Wow, Gail Dines would really like this writer!" Lol.
Thanks for sharing, it's a great reminder to each of us that we're not the only one with human needs.
I read an article the other day about a couple whose housekeeper literally has to leave her home at 4:30am to get to their house on time to serve them their tea in bed. Once they're ready to get up, the husband goes to the office while the wife goes to her pilates class. The housekeeper prepares the children's breakfast. She also has to be fully engaged in the children's playtime, so that they learn, as opposed to just watching tv. This is expected to happen while she cleans the house. She then cooks separate meals for the wife, husband and kids. Her own children basically look after themselves all day. I'm sure if you were to ask the wife, she'd say, "Yes, I'm empowered! My husband earns enough that I can do whatever I want all day!" But the woman who works for them is doing a minimum of two people's jobs for one person's minimum wage, and my money is on Mr and Mrs Employer don't give a damn. They see her services as something they're entitled to, and her station in life as the product of her own laziness or stupidity.
If that isn't Empowerment for Me at the Expense of You, then I don't know what is. As much as I'd like a household team to help me with the never-ending chores, I know I'll never hire anyone until I'm wealthy enough to pay someone a decent salary for all that work.
[–]hdost34FDS Newbie 35 points36 points37 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
We live in a society where marrying a rich guy is considered an accomplishment.
[–]AlextheAnalystFDS Newbie 29 points30 points31 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
IKR!! And I find it even more gutting that some women marry rich and then completely waste that resource. If I had a husband throwing money at me, I'd be starting businesses, massively supporting charities and paying my household staff enough to care for their own families.
(That said, I have met and heard of some lovely people who do all of this, so definitely not a dig on rich wives - may we all be rich, lol!)
[–]modernmedusaaRuthless Strategist 51 points52 points53 points 5 years ago* (8 children) | Copy Link
Im tired of seeing dumb women claiming their only fans income is empowering & we should be all ‘you go sis!’. It cringes me out that’s what some women have resorted to sitting in their bedroom all day taking nudes for dirty old pornsick scrotes who can’t get laid. And they think that’s success or some kind of actual power- what happens when they get old? Lol. Why don’t you see powerful men doing it? They’re just catering to the hypersexualisation of women . Just another ass in the catalogue of nude women online- never going to changes men view on women.
Like nah sis, you making a mediocre wage from having 100 male subscribers, many of which will have wives & girlfriends, is not empowering. It only benefits your bank account, at the expense of other women. And that’s going to stay on your digital foot print forever. And don’t give me the ‘but I’m working class! It’s the only job I can do!’ . No it isn’t, stop lying especially when you’re from a western county - I grew up working class myself & could of easy depended on exploiting my looks to get by but CHOSE not to.
I was watching a cam girl on tv yday who says she gets constant rape threats from men on only fans & guys often approach her in the street saying they’ve ‘bought that round’ as they subscribe to her nudes. Sounds super empowering 🙃 I wonder how that career goes when you’re 40?
That’s just neoliberal dumb ‘choice’ feminism in a nutshell: ‘yes but it’s my choice & I’m making money & I’m independent! So it’s feminist! Feminism is supporting whatever dumb choice I make! Stop criticising me you’re jealous! Who cares that I’m normalising porn culture & catering to endless pornsick scrotes!’
What’s hilarious is so many of these ‘choice’ feminism liberal feminists claim they’re ‘Marxists’ & against capitalism. Marxism always noted the effects of material oppression (they constantly claim being a woman is a gender identity/feeling - not material lol) & there is nothing more capitalist than selling your pussy pics to pornsick wolves for money. You’re literally marketizing your pussy FOR men - how can that NOT be feeding into capitalism - which seeks to marketise every intimate sphere of life & turn into a competition.
IMO most ‘liberal feminists’ have no historical or theological grasp of feminism whatsoever - they are simply very naive, not very intelligent women- who like their wishy washy faux feminism spoonfed to them by the patriarchy itself & they just post fluffy woke dumb slogans for clout points on Instagram as opposed to picking up any women’s history books & having any real skin in the game. They just use ‘liberal feminism’ as a quick shield cover when ppl criticise their Pickme ways but I doubt they’ve really taken the time to understand what they’re supporting. They don’t care about feminism, just making a quick buck & getting attention .
[–]ItsFreezenFDS Newbie 16 points17 points18 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I was watching a cam girl on tv yday who says she gets constant rape threats from men on only fans & guys often approach her in the street saying they’ve ‘bought that round’ as they subscribe to her nudes. Sounds super empowering
Yikes.
[–]bill_dollaThrowaway Account 11 points12 points13 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Yes! The problem with being a cam girl is that you aren’t gaining any skills which you can leverage later in the future (unless you are in that .1% of women like Kim K that actually are able to leverage their sexualization); for most women, doing this type of “work” is actually a liability, as it will hurt their chances of ever gaining other types of meaningful employment, say nothing of becoming something like a political figure.
[–]One-of-the-Last 9 points10 points11 points 5 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
It's super sad they think objectifying their bodies and their existence is "empowering."
[–]modernmedusaaRuthless Strategist 23 points24 points25 points 5 years ago* (4 children) | Copy Link
The goal of the patriarchy is to hypersexualise as many women as possible to lower their status as a sex class so that women are forced into Pickmeisha behaviours to get a crumb of attention. So that they have to the most to get an average male chump to treat them as a full human or a potential wife etc. This is not how it’s supposed to go in nature- where the male competes for the attention of a high value female, as she carries more risk & decides who’s genes make it to the next gen.
This benefits men as all the women are scrambling for their attention, feeling insecure, jealous etc working overtime to outdo the next Pickmeisha- as we are seeing on Instagram. This gives average men more leg room bc wow look so many sexualised pretties to use & abuse- why settle down! This makes Pickmeisha’s get more competitive, insecure & jealous so that women’s interpersonal friendships break down- again another win for the patriarchy, because they don’t want women gathering together /talking & focusing on anything other than pleasing a scrote as this threatens the whole system. If they can make women sexualise themselves- all the better. And if they can make them think that guided ‘choice ‘ is ‘empowering’ bc they get more crumbs of attention than the next- even better. But that’s all it is - attention, not respect. Under patriarchy pick mes think attention is worth sacrificing respect for- bc those are the hostile conditions the patriarchy has created for her. But this hostility makes women & their kids sick in the long run, pick mes are never happy bc they betray their own dignity in exchange for crumbs of attention from men who don’t & will never love them. Lib fems have fallen for male propaganda- a form of ideological governmentality in which the target willingly governs themselves, i.e by peddling lib fem nonsense. They are willingly giving up power as opposed to being forced to.
But at the end of the day, the more women oversexualise themselves & the more they encourage other women to do the same- the less women are seen as full humans. The more men will see them as sex objects to idealise, devalue & discard. Nothing will change. Cheats won’t stop cheating. Men won’t stop abusing & degrading you. Or playing you off other women. Sexual empowerment holds no power if 6million pick mes are doing the same thing
The porn industry, sex work, only fans etc- these all work against women’s best interests as sex class- they are weapons of the patriarchy so women are seen as usable exchangeable accessories, inferior objects, kept at each others throats. Rather than full humans, partners, mothers, individuals. And if women lose their footing, as they have been doing, they can’t choose a decent mate /partner bc there are none - that’s why the patriarchy created those tools - to lower women’s status so that it’s more difficult for them to be choosier- so that average chumps can remain pathetic & have choices they don’t deserve. So they can have more women to have sex with, more power & control & remain in Peter Pan land for as long as they want. Men know they aren’t the choosers deep down- that’s why they’ve created a system that flips the script on us. That affects women’s mental health as well as their kids & the clown cycle continues into the next gen. Crappy cheat fathers, worn out mothers, mentally ill kids, broken homes. That’s why society is so backwards- because sociopath men who don’t respect women, are in charge & actively work to undercut our status on a daily basis - whether through humiliation, abuse, hypersexualisation, shoddy laws, mass media, news. Yet we’re the ones who birth MALES & females- so it makes sense to NOT degrade us & weaken our status. Most men only inspire to greater heights when great women hold the stick very high & refuse to budge. Otherwise most men defunct to their most degenerate baseline selves.
[–]snejonopkaFDS Newbie 2 points3 points4 points 5 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
QUEEN THIS DESERVES AN AWARD 🥺🥺🥺🥺🙌🏻🏅🏅🏅 thank you so much for articulating this!! you’re spot on!
[–]modernmedusaaRuthless Strategist 4 points5 points6 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
That’s it in a nut shell tho sis, I’ve been mulling over it for a while. How they got us here, how they keep us down. It all makes sense
[–]snejonopkaFDS Newbie 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
it really does 😞
[–]saggy_lemons1FDS Newbie 2 points3 points4 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I'm excited to read your comment tomorrow morning 🙃
[–]MissIncongruousNYFDS Newbie 29 points30 points31 points 5 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
I hope this doesn't make me a horrible person, but I have thought for a very long time that one of the toughest obstacles for truly feminist women are other women. The patriarchy exists because so many other women let it.
[–]LykkeStromFDS Newbie 13 points14 points15 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Certain mother of sons, in particular.
[–]sherrybbyFDS Newbie 16 points17 points18 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
yesssss. and with that, surrogate mothers.
[–]calico_moonFDS Newbie 18 points19 points20 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I love Gail Dines so much. What a bad ass, I can't get enough!
[–]Ill_Entrepreneur_704FDS Newbie 35 points36 points37 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
No one is free until everyone is free.
[–]gf_not_mommaThrowaway Account 21 points22 points23 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
There is so much internalized misogyny in white liberal feminism. Gail Daines seems to be one of the few modern day white feminists who truly work to call out the blindness of privileged libfems and how much danger they pose to more marginalized women. I am so happy FDS introduced me to her and have watched some of her lectures, which are amazing. I will, however, continue to focus on signal boosting feminists of color who were basically left in the dust by white feminism, and despite being at a disadvantage, clock major wins through organized collective action.
[–]nomaki221FDS Newbie 7 points8 points9 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
intersectionalism, people!!
[–]penelopekittyFDS STRATEGY COACH 4 points5 points6 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Choice feminism is a cancer.
[–]MissIncongruousNYFDS Newbie 25 points26 points27 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
This reminds me of my SIL who stopped working the second she got pregnant. My brother is very well off, so they have a cleaning service plus a nanny and most meals are catered. She spends most of her time going to art studios with her other elite friends.
One day she went on a rant with me about how much of a feminist SHE is.
Meanwhile, I had just finished up my PhD and was working over 60 hrs a week as a PostDoc.
It was clear to me that day that she and I have different views on what it means to be a feminist.
[–]buscemiswetblueeyesFDS Newbie 8 points9 points10 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
yes! these are the women that make “#girlboss” merch and talk about their successes whilst underpaying Rosa who does everything for you and your kids. and when the kids inevitably love her more than you, you fire her. hate that shit so much.
[–]jelilikinsFDS Newbie 5 points6 points7 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
I do struggle a bit with the concept of hiring a cleaner, especially in the situation where they're hired because it's the only option other than the wife doing everything (hardly feminist). But what if you're a single mother working long hours and you pay really well? The writer Caitlin Moran used to be a cleaner and has defended the hiring of them, pointing out that people only ever complain about these things when it allows them to bash women. No one is asking men about it.
I don't have the answers but I find it confusing.
[–]seashellsupplierThrowaway Account 2 points3 points4 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I think it’s fine, as long as you pay well and clean up extreme messes yourself. If you’re out of the house even better. I think the problem comes from treating the people who clean for you as lesser than and becoming a slob the rest of the time. At the end of the day, they provide a service you don’t have the time for, it’s no different than picking up take away if you’ve had a long day at work or hiring a landscaping company.
[–]EntireTadpoleFDS Newbie 6 points7 points8 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I love this so much.
[–]DameSorciereThrowaway Account 3 points4 points5 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
[confused feminist noises]
[–]quirkypinkllamaFDS Newbie 10 points11 points12 points 5 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link
Could say the same thing about grocery store clerks, mechanics, etc. Someone has to do the job, though I think the pay should be better
[–]-badmadAMFDS Apprentice 8 points9 points10 points 5 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link
mechanics and other professions which are typcally male- dominated are still way better paid than typically female professions.
[–]quirkypinkllamaFDS Newbie 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
Mechanics require a certification and special training. A lot of the things women do don't require that, in this example.
There's a pay gap for sure, of equal qualifications for the job of a man vs woman.
[–]jelilikinsFDS Newbie 6 points7 points8 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
What about the importance of the job and the need for intangible skills, e.g. caring professions? Absolutely vital but horrendously underpaid because historically women have done it for free.
[–]quirkypinkllamaFDS Newbie 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Oh I totally agree. Everyone deserves a living wage.
[–]-badmadAMFDS Apprentice 2 points3 points4 points 5 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
Working with children also requires pedagogical and psychological knowledge, physical knowledge (some stuff like first- aid specialized for kids and toddler for example), and a lot of attention (leaving kids out of the eyes in certain situations for even one seconds can lead to tragic accidents). At the very least you have to carry a lot of responsibility when caring for other kids professionally.
Being a carer or physical therapists is physically very demanding (people really underestimate how much), you have responsibility for another person, it is emotionally demanding and probably also requires basic knowledge about physical stuff.
Nurses are underpaid, they alse require a "certificate" and a special education, and they require a LOT of special training, at least in my country. ESPECIALLY if they work in some areas like intensive care units, they have to get a lot of technical training even after their "certificate", and it also takes years. So some nurses where I live are highly specialized, technical workers and their wages do not match it. It is only as soon as more males are entering the fields that the wages go up.
That any kind of work gets more valued if it is considered male work is a well studied phenomenon.
Many male-typical craftmanships do require some, but still not THAT much expertise and responsibilities, but they are still generally very well paid in comparison. I know women who would have become awesome craftswomen but get so bullied in those fields that they had to stop. If males were truly just more qualified and "better" they would not have to (and never would have to anywhere) bully women and harass them when wanting to do their jobs, hold women back in any kind, or discriminate them. Also it wouldn't be so damn hard just to find a halfway usable craftsman in any area, despite the large supply of male craftsmen everywhere.
[–]quirkypinkllamaFDS Newbie 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
I agree. But to be a daycare worker, you don't need a special degree for it. Only some inexpensive training. It's hard work caring for young children, I know. Parents don't want to pay more than they already are for childcare. It's already expensive, like college tuition, for daycare. Other than government funding idk how that could get them to be paid more.
[–]-badmadAMFDS Apprentice 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
You don't need any kind of degree for being a daycare- worker in your country? That's interesting.
[–]quirkypinkllamaFDS Newbie 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
You need a license, but not a special degree.
[–]PartypuppersFDS Apprentice 6 points7 points8 points 5 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
While I agree that many high earning career women can have careers by paying for nannies and cooks, I really disagree that (perhaps incorrectly, someone tell me if I'm wrong) that nannies and childcare providers are underpaid. In my country at least (UK) the cost of childcare is extortionate.
[–]Amphy64FDS Newbie 21 points22 points23 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
It adds up -as I think using a service regularly is bound to-, but it's still often going to be minimum wage, including under the standard adult rate, for the workers: not extortionate. It's possible that the owners of some nurseries may be exploitative, but that means the workers still aren't seeing most of the money.
England:
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2020/aug/05/one-in-eight-childcare-workers-in-england-earn-less-than-5-an-hour
As most are women, underpaid is also almost a given.
[–]PartypuppersFDS Apprentice 5 points6 points7 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Yikes, thanks for highlighting that.
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