Can someone please explain what "Toxic Masculinity" is?

flibbidy_floob · 2022-05-17T01:07:00+00:00

The masculine traits that women find annoying or offensive in men - except for those men that they find attractive, in which case they like those traits.

PandaFoo1 · 2022-05-17T01:35:56+00:00

It’s just a way to shit on men for stuff that’s not even exclusive to one sex. Notice how pretty much every “masculine” trait is negative (not opening up, aggression) and “feminine” traits are positive (being open about emotions, caring for others). People aren’t toxic because they’re masculine, people are toxic because they’re toxic.

ReaperJuggie · 2022-05-17T00:38:09+00:00

It dosnt exist. It's something people use when they can't come up with anything else to hate men for.

Juniorsupernova · 2022-05-17T00:14:03+00:00

It does not exist

rabel111 · 2022-05-17T02:17:50+00:00

The term is "supposed" to refer to restrictive and unhealthy expectations or scripts about what it means to be a man. When these scripts are internalised by a man or boy, harmful behaviours and traits can result.

ie. To be a man, you should be x: overly competitive, overly aggressive, stoic to the point of harmful emotional repression, always up for sex, etc. Both men and women can perpetuate these ideas.

In practice, the term is often used to shut down discussion of systemic solutions to men's issues, or even just as a blanket word for anything shitty men do.

The term first originated within the Men's Mythopoetic Movement and men's liberation movements of the 80s. The MMM had a view that there was an ideal, authentic Deep Masculinity. Toxic Masculinity represented the mutated, Lord Of The Flies, counterfeit version that was creeping in because boys lacked positive male role models and male community.

After the MMM fizzled out, the term was eventually adopted within feminist discourse as a subset of Hegemonic Masculinity.

Suspicious-Sleep5227 · 2022-05-17T02:24:54+00:00

Generally bad behaviors by individual men that get falsely ascribed to all men so that feminism can weaponize it to gain power over men.

Eleutherlothario · 2022-05-17T02:10:01+00:00

It is hate speech. A term used by bigots to disparage the ones they hate.

Yehiaha666 · 2022-05-17T03:12:07+00:00

Nobody gets to define my masculinity, especially a female. Is that toxic? I don't care.

maxlvb · 2022-05-17T05:34:05+00:00

FYI:

Toxic masculinity was originally created by the mythopoetic men's movement, with a completely different definition. The mythopoets believed that society was forcing boys to be feminine, instead of letting them be themselves.
Feminists twisted the definition by demanding men be more feminine, and deciding that they know what's best for men. The feminist definition of toxic masculinity is a backlash against the growing number of men who are speaking up about toxic feminism.
Masculinity is not toxic; it's the feminist attitudes towards masculinity that are toxic.
It's the toxic feminist ideology that is trying to impose an unnatural and divisive anti male society that's at fault. A system of thought and invented discriminatory practices in feminist ideology, culture, and economy, that feminists call the patriarchy and toxic masculinity.
The term toxic masculinity is part of the feminist ideology that sees male behaviour within a context of the patriarchy and denies as much as possible that it is (1) the result of biological differences, and (2) that typical male behaviour is “human” behaviour.
Toxic masculinity isn't about masculinity at all; it's all about the negative stereotypes that all men are accused of, simply because they are men.
Men dont hide their emotions because of 'Toxic Masculinity'; They hide them because no one cares.

Toxic Masculinity: Hate speech about men.

International_Risk82 · 2022-05-17T13:38:25+00:00

Different people define it in different ways.

1.For some, it's the "toxic" behaviours that men do towards each other or primarily, women.

Some say that it's the compulsive need to distance oneself from anything feminine in fear of being ridiculed or perceived as less than.
The more radical individuals take it a step further and say that men are inherently evil trash and that masculinity in itself is toxic. The future being female and all that feminist crap.

It goes without saying that none of these definitions hold up from a logical perspective as women can be the ones to behave in such a fashion, and the last point is blatant misandry and sexism.

Toxic masculinity, along with the narrative of an oppressive patriarchy is a made up concept which is used by angry women and simp men who've been emotionally abused as children and to quote Dr. Peterson: "have never had a satisfactory relationship with a single man in their entire life".

Darkwolf90 · 2022-05-17T05:00:50+00:00

It technically exist however its use in general is so vague and subjective that its effectively meaningless. Its generally a shaming tactic as well as "marking" you as a target for society.

auMatech · 2022-05-17T07:32:49+00:00

From what I've seen, it's just feminists teaching men how to be "properly masculine".

How can women who don't know anything about the male experience tell men how to be men?

To provide perspective, should men be telling women how to be women? It's an absurd ans controlling concept that has no positive side.

Initially the term was coined by the mythopoetic mens movement, as a way to refer to the increasing societal pressures for men to be more feminine, instead of letting men be men. Feminists twisted that definition as a way of controlling how men behave (and to be more feminine), as well as using it as a tool for shaming and silencing men who speak up.

EricAllonde · 2022-05-17T13:28:31+00:00

Feminists will lie about the meaning of their favorite term to try to protect their image.

Look instead at what they actually do: feminists never talk about any other type of masculinity apart from "toxic masculinity".

If you ask a feminist what non-toxic masculinity is like, they usually can't tell you. The better-prepared feminists might say essentially that it's being like a woman.

Then there are those rare feminists that openly admit the truth:

https://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/7i4mqd/toxic_masculinity_makes_it_sound_like_there_is/

https://www.vice.com/en/article/zmk3ej/all-masculinity-is-toxic

Lasttoflinch · 2022-05-17T00:15:49+00:00

Internalised misandry

Jay-Ames · 2022-05-17T12:15:44+00:00

It's another word for normal masculinity but then trying to make it sound negative while it isn't.

Relativity_Star10538 · 2022-05-17T12:27:36+00:00

It's a buzzword that's thrown around with very little thought behind it.

tylcolisse · 2022-05-17T13:52:41+00:00

Basically misandry

marks1995 · 2022-05-17T14:03:45+00:00

It's a made-up term used to justify sexism against men. When feminists don't like something that men do, they claim it is toxic and that justifies forcing men to change.

If we just say toxic behavior, then you can't use it as a tool to shame only men.

ChaosOpen · 2022-05-17T01:46:53+00:00

You know what a SIMP is? The opposite of that is toxic masculinity.

rabel111 · 2022-05-17T03:54:40+00:00

Toxic masculinity is feminist hate speech.

OctaviaPinfold · 2022-05-17T09:52:47+00:00

Toxic masculinity is whatever feminism needs it to be to make men look bad in any given situation, even when men aren't even involved.

Qantourisc · 2022-05-17T05:19:01+00:00

There is no dictionary definition, so it depends on who is using the words.

Potato-with-guns · 2022-05-17T14:56:16+00:00

An excuse to shame men as a group when an individual does something bad.

Mephisto_Marquis · 2022-05-18T04:56:26+00:00

I'd say toxic masculinity is when someone acts in a damaging way because of a negative preconception of masculinity and possibly a desire to affirm said masculinity.

ExMuzzy · 2022-05-17T12:34:09+00:00

Feminists often describe misandry as toxic masculinity because from their viewpoint the problems men face are rooted in misogyny, not misandry. For example, men not crying openly is due to men not wanting to appear feminine or weak.

In reality, there are a lot of men who've been rejected by women for opening up and we're raised that way by teachers and parents. It's just misandry, not toxic masculinity. The latter term is also unhelpful when it comes to helping men. I often see feminists more bothered about people accepting the term toxic masculinity than offering any real help to men looking for it on advice subreddits.

test90001 · 2022-05-17T02:33:24+00:00

I think the term "toxic masculinity" started out as a way of describing men that would engage in harmful behaviors because of their pride. This could be something as simple as refusing to ask for directions when lost, or as major as physically attacking someone to defend their "honor".

Nowadays, however, it seems to have been broadened to become a way of shaming men for being men.

endersoul48 · 2022-05-17T05:24:36+00:00

it does exist but more as a societal masculinity like the tuffen up mentality same goes for toxic feminity

EstablishmentKooky50 · 2022-05-17T06:33:10+00:00

Initially the term had little to do with how men behaved, it was much more about the frigid social roles, stereotypes and expectations towards men. Some of these expectations in some contexts had harmful effects on some men. The typical example would be the classic "men don't cry"...

Since then the focus have shifted from men to how men raised with these potentially harmful expectations affect society. Today it's more like a slur in colloquial use. Virtually everything that men do and is unsatisfactory to or can not be understood by women is called toxic masculinity. If you search for "toxic masculinity examples" you will find anything from roughhousing trough competition to disagreeing with feminist talking points marked as examples. Interestingly enough, women can have toxic masculine traits too, so ultimately, it means nothing any more.

Mediocre-Savings-375 · 2022-05-17T22:20:54+00:00

i personally think toxic masculinity is the idea that a man HAS to be masculine no matter what, like the idea of masculinity is forced and pushed onto someone (which it is). there’s nothing wrong with being “masculine”, but there’s something wrong with not wanting to be masculine but still being forced to fit into a stereotype

IFeelSorry4UrMothers · 2022-05-17T04:13:01+00:00

Its basically being an asshole

Being an asshole doesn't have a gender.

-Brennus- · 2022-05-17T03:01:13+00:00

Being masculine isn’t toxic itself, but certain traits pushed by certain types of peoples/cultures can be. Examples:

1.) A dad telling his son something like “Stop crying, stop being a pussy.” - This is encouraging men to hide their emotions, and casting the action as “girly” (a simple “negative” trait for a child to understand).

2.) Overly arrogant - Some men are pushed and encouraged by others to be overly competitive growing up, and sometimes that can manifest as harassment against women as they get older. That girl turned you down the first time you asked her out? Why’d you’d give up so easily, keep trying, and if she keeps turning you done just call her a dumb bitch. Cat calling women is also an example

3.) Overly sexualized - Men tend to find and encourage porn use younger and more frequently than women, this leads to situations that I’m sure a few of us remember like; That one kid who shared his girlfriends nudes in school, sending women unsolicited dick pics online, lashing out at random women on dating apps for not putting out or sending nudes, etc…

This is all stuff I’ve seen/heard other men do repeatedly growing up, that’s what people mean by “toxic masculinity” if you’re an average dude who treats people with respect and enjoys being a man, this shit isn’t calling you out.

Successful_Ad3991 · 2022-05-17T00:50:49+00:00

From my perspective, and this isn't based on life examples but rather conversations, it is ridiculing a man for not being well versed on topics or values placed highly by other men. Not knowing the difference between a camshaft and a crankshaft. Not knowing what a 30-06 is. Not being into supposed traditional male roles, hobbies, or interests.

thatspositive · 2022-05-17T01:29:10+00:00

It's fairly simple: masculine traits and/or expectations that are harmful.

E.g. it's "weak" for men to be vulnerable or show emotion

BCRE8TVE · 2022-05-17T18:50:10+00:00

Originally in the academic setting it was meant to be attitudes and perspectives we have about masculinity that are harmful to men, and/or push men to be harmful towards themselves and others. For example, the "men don't cry" thing is harmful because it represses men's emotions, and it's toxic when men enforce it on other men too.

The original meaning makes sense and is a useful thing to talk about, but the name for the phenomenon is absolutely horrible. Frankly, we should change it to "toxic male gendered expectations" to show that it is the expectations that are toxic.

Too many people then took toxic masculinity to mean that either men or masculinity itself are toxic, and then blame men for everything wrong under the sun.

So, if you can replace it with "toxic male gendered expectations" and talk about the expectations, then that is a useful and valid concept.

If it translates to "men/masculinity are toxic/are the problem" then it's not just bullshit and garbage, it's deliberately crafted gaslighting to blame men for everything under the sun, while denying that this is what they are doing.

It's interesting to note for example that feminism pushes for gender-neutral terms (firemen to fire fighters, policemen to police officers), except for when it's something negative, in which case it absolutely must be associated with men and masculinity, and cannot ever in any way shape or form be connected with women or femininity.

Toxic masculinity is just one of many examples of this kind of double-speak and hypocrisy. My earlier example of "toxic male gendered expectations" is actually gender neutral because you can just have toxic gendered expectations, and toxic female gendered expectations. This way of saying it would be so much clearer and less demonizing, but can't have that under feminism.

ImplodedPotatoSalad · 2022-05-17T22:16:08+00:00

Anything wahmyn dislike at any given moment, really.

Successful_Ad3991 · 2022-05-17T22:25:16+00:00

Agreed.

Necessary_Ad4557 · 2022-05-18T17:02:45+00:00

Can someone explain to me because I'm a bit confused. One of the things involved in toxic masculinity is when men are told to "man up" and not show emotions which I can see you guys know already but the comments also show that you are against this. I'm confused because I thought you guys want a society where you can more freely express your emotions and not be judged, I mean thats one of the factors of why the suicide rate is so high for men, that men are taught to bottle up their emotions and they don't end up sharing with anyone, but you guys are against this? Can someone explain to me?

gamerlololdude · 2022-05-19T03:32:57+00:00

The comments here are cringe. I’m sorry people don’t bother reading scholarly sources to understand this stuff.

there are certain traits historically labeled masculine and feminine. they are associated with binary gender roles of the past when men were expected to be masculine and women expected to be feminine.

In reality masculine vs feminine is arbitrary. It is not related to sex or gender identity.

take this dichotomy of traits, remove the concept of gender from it.

What you have left is some clusters of traits not much different than how “dark triad” is a cluster of traits and we gave them a name to further work with the concept.

Toxic masculinity is when traits labeled masculine cause harm.

Competitiveness is a masculine trait. it can be used to encourage people to get better or it can be used to put down people and make them feel inferior for performing worse than someone else. Physical strength is a masculine trait. It can be used for good to save a person from a fire or for bad to get into a fist fight to show off who is stronger.

This understanding is important for sociologists to be able to study trends and behaviours.

For example, “Boys don’t cry” is coming from toxic masculinity.

Being tough is a masculine trait. But when exhibiting this trait goes to the point of harming people such that they don’t seek mental health help or suppress emotions, then it becomes toxic. The harm can apply to themselves and others.

Men don’t need to exhibit masculine traits to be men. Toxic masculinity is a sociology term. It isn’t the same as saying like “chest masculinization surgery” that transgender men get where “masculine” implies man-like.

Mogu__ · 2022-05-19T09:03:57+00:00

Unlike most people relying I’m gonna take the nuanced position and say it does exist. Although I don’t think it’s nearly as prominent as many rad fems would make it out to be. And I think toxic femininity exist as well and is just as prominent. Anyway I’d describe toxic masculinity as a man who’s so concerned with being viewed as masculine that he acts in emotionally disconnected, aggressive, disrespectful, non agreeable ways. Whether it be a refusal to cry in front of your spouse because you think it makes you weak or that she’ll view you as weak (even if she did she’s not a woman u should be with). Or reacting with anger to everything instead of letting yourself experience sadness. Or needing to control everything to feel like a leader and a man. These are certainly behaviors that plenty of men engage in and I don’t honk it’s dishonest to frame them as toxically masculine when it literally derives from an inner desire to be viewed as masculine or maintain some “masculine frame”.

Zeam_Beam · 2022-05-19T20:22:45+00:00

From my knowledge toxic masculinity is mainly just being overly aggresive, obsessive and very cold i guess. Personally, I hate toxic feminity more since it's never talked about but both are equally stupid.

Frangiblepani · 2022-05-22T21:41:10+00:00

Watch the Pixar film, Luca.

In it there's a very good example of toxic masculinity as well as an example of masculinity.

There's an older boy who competes in the race. He acts like what the guys who claim to be "alpha" do. He dominates others physically and verbally. He thinks he knows more than everyone else and is entitled to do what he wants. He is unapologetic and gets his way by making other people feel uncomfortable. He's also materialistic, placing great value on his possessions as though they impart status.

Then there's the father of the girl, Guilia. Although he's physically imposing, he doesn't use it against others. He is tough, but fair. He protects and provides for those around him without putting them down or being unkind. He is secure enough to listen to the ideas of others, and he stands up for Luca and Alberto, even when they're hated and feared by the whole town.

Title	Can someone please explain what "Toxic Masculinity" is?
Author	WTRKS1253
Upvotes	26
Comments	153
Date	May 17, 2022 12:12 AM UTC (4 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/ur9vys/can_someone_please_explain_what_toxic_masculinity/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/can-someone-please-explain-what-toxic-masculinity.1113945 https://theredarchive.com/post/1113945

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